This contest has been going for quite some years, but it is rather funny how Amtrak Police continues to crack down on railfans taking photographs. Why does Amtrak continue launching this contest when it is apparently against the rules?
They need to be more black and white on the photo policy.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Totally agree Anton; but this is how bureauracies have a way of working. One hand , presumably Public Affairs, encourages someone to engage in an activity, yet another, the Police Dept, has different ideas.
I'd dare say with powers of arrest and who has got the Glock, the PD will win that bureaucratic tussle.
Public Affairs simply should put out a release noting that account the heightened security conditions around railroad property the contest is indefinitely suspended.
Posted by rY. (Member # 3528) on :
I think we (who photograph) should carry copies of the Amtrak contest rules in our pocket. Easy explanation to the Station Police!
Posted by PaulB (Member # 4258) on :
Let's get this straight:
Tracks, stations, and yards are PRIVATE PROPERTY. You have no right to be there or to do anything. You may see signs posted at stations (especially mass transit stations) "PROPERTY OF ______ NO UNAUTHORIZED PERSONS, NO ADMITTANCE WITHOUT VALID FARE." Again, you have no right to be on someone else's property, and if the property owner (or representative) wants you to leave, you must do so immediately.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
Sorry, public areas of stations are just that, accessible to the public, regardless of ownership. Most of the sillier restrictions are unenfocable at law should someone have the time and money to raise the issue. It is merely bullying and should be given all the respect a bully deserves.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
While some such as Mr. Harris think that confrontation with other members of our society that just happen to be lawfully carrying the Glock and Taesar as well as holding the power to arrest (as one unfortunate, but somehow I think "mouthy", photographer learned in New Orleans last summer), I for one am with Mr. Paul B.
Somehow, I think that the incidents, such as the well-publicized (beyond railfan media) "Morton Grove Two" matter, between amateur photographers and law enforcement, involved some kind confrontation, such as 'I have my rights....'. Incidents in which the subject is asked to cease and move on, to which the response is "yes sir" and compliance, end without further incident.
It's "just not worth it".
Posted by dilly (Member # 1427) on :
The legal issue aside. . .
I, for one, would love to see far more creativity from the photographers who enter the contest every year, as well as from the judges. The winning photographs (and, I suspect, 99% of the losers) are, essentially, "beauty shots" of Amtrak locomotives, taken from pretty much the same front-of-the-train vantage point almost every time.
My guess is that this reflects the typical railfan photographer's obession with "power." Unfortunately, it makes for extremely predictable imagery. I've often wondered how many of the people who spend each weekend perched on the hood of their car, waiting to snap their nine-thousandth "perfect" shot of the [Insert Your Favorite Train Name Here] have ever actually traveled by rail.
Perhaps if more rail photographers did, the photos that win each year (not to mention the thousands of virtually identical photos posted on hundreds of web sites) would be far more original and interesting -- and more representative of what it's really like to "go by train."
------------------------------------
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Point indeed noted, Mr. Dilly, but lest we note that David Plowden is probably one of the most talented professional photographers to walk this planet.
He's "right up there' with Richard Steinheimer and O Winston Link or rail subjects.
Posted by Ira Slotkin (Member # 81) on :
Dilly. Thanks for the link. I followed it, saw the picture title from 1964 and knew it was not the Phoebe Snow I know (singer). So I googled the name and found this site which I thought others would enjoy.
Ira
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
During the 60's, Miss Phoebe was probably the 'classiest' daylight train anywhere in North America that I had the pleasure to ride in this life.
I must wonder, Mr. Slotkin, what royalties, if any, the musician who adopted the name of that train paid to the Erie-Lackawanna Ry.
Posted by rtabern (Member # 4306) on :
Interesting article about the New Orleans incident!!
Their security guard there must seriously have a bug up their a**!!
I got off the City of New Orleans on the afternoon of March 18th. I had been on since Chicago and had fun taking pictures of the train at all the longer stops (Chicago, Champaign, Memphis, Greenwood, and Jackson).
When I got off, I got a couple of pictures of my sleeper and the other cars. As I approached the door of the station I wanted to get one last wide-shot of the train -- and at that point about 3 police (I don't remember if they were AmCops of NOPD) almost started yelling at me not to take pictures of the train.
Well, I didn't even ask any questions and I guess I am glad I didn't after reading what happened to that other man back in August.
First off, I can understand "homeland security", but how is my picture of #59 going to be any more of a security risk when it's parked in New Orleans -- as opposed to Chicago, Memphis, or any of the other stations? (by the way, yes, there was security at the other stations who passed right by me and didn't give a rip!)
Second, New Orleans is almost totally wiped out. Sure I guess terrorism could happen there, but it's probably now an unlikely target I would think... or at least more of an unlikely target.
Third, my sleeping car attendent took a picture of me on the New Orleans platform before the cops came out. So to me, if an Amtrak employee is taking pictures of me and for me... it's almost like the company is saying "it' ok"... or atleast in my mind.
RTT
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
Perhams Mr. Norman misunderstands what I am saying. I do not recommend being confrontational nor do I act that way. However, as said, these rules are silly, pointless, and can be counterproductive, and deserve no RESPECT. That is, I feel free to ignore them, but circumspectly. In simpler words, be sneaky. If it looks like you will be confronted, forego the picture unless you have the time to and enjoy playing with the the legal system. For something of this nature, I do not feel that I do. If it looks like you can reasonably expect to get away with it without any confrontation, take the shot without feeling any guilt about what silly rules you may have broken.
George
Posted by rY. (Member # 3528) on :
Even more importantly is that, often, there is no *rule* against taking photographs in the station. I recount (again) the time last year where I was admonished from taking photographs on the station platform in New York Penn Station (after disembarking my train). I politely put my camera away and went about my business.
However, the next day, before continuing on my journey, I paid a visit to the station master's office and asked for a copy of the station rules ("Rules available on request in the station office" was posted in various locations in the waiting room). Although the manager on duty could not find *any* reference to photography in the multi-fold leaflet, he insisted that there was a "new rule" about photo taking "due to post 911 terrorism" concerns.
So, eh.
But I seriously think that carrying around a copy of the Amtrak contest information might be a photographer's best defense. (But, of course, since They are the ones with the handcuffs and guns, if you're not left alone after politely referring to the contest, it'd probably be a good idea to let the matter alone and be on your way.)
Posted by jgart56 (Member # 3968) on :
Once again I state:
It's too late to be banning any kind of photography of Amtrak trains as just about every piece of equipment they own is already up on internet websites (including stations and track layout)...what does a ban, now, accomplish??? except to give some cop a feeling of "I've done something for national security."
It's true, being confrontational does not help and I would not do it, however, in the Morton Grove incident, the cops stated to the amateur photographers that the Patriot Law trumped their Constitutional rights to do anything (notice I said anything not just photography). That's where the phtographers decided to draw the line in the sand!
If we truly wanted security in this country, then the first thing that we should get rid of would be the Internet...it should go back to it's historical military-education roots. Notice I'm being facetious here!!! Pulling the plug on the internet would, however, take care of the mindless spam problem!
Posted by rY. (Member # 3528) on :
Gilbert and Paul-- just so we're clear, are you of the opinion that passengers should NOT be allowed to take photographs of the train they are on/about to be on/just got off off from the platform?
Note that the scenario I am posing here is specifically a passenger (with ticket) who is on the platform where their train is; not a railfan without a ticket and not a person standing beyond "the yellow line".
(Personally, I feel that if a railfan wants to take pictures of trains, and they're in a public "not beyond the yellow line" area, there's no problem. But it seems that various station police are going after ANYONE, no matter whether they have a ticket or not; no matter whether they are abiding the platform striping or not.)
Posted by CoastStarlight99 (Member # 2734) on :
quote:Originally posted by rY.: (Personally, I feel that if a railfan wants to take pictures of trains, and they're in a public "not beyond the yellow line" area, there's no problem. But it seems that various station police are going after ANYONE, no matter whether they have a ticket or not; no matter whether they are abiding the platform striping or not.)
I agree, I have no sympathy for people who trespass on railroad property and think they should be allowed to take pictures. But if you are a paying passenger and want to take a few pictures on the platform: big deal! THAT is what some railfans have been stopped by Amtrak police for.
Posted by JONATHON (Member # 2899) on :
For Those who were taking about "those front of the Train Shots", what would you say about a Station Photo, Lke this one I recently took?
It's totally pretty, and as long as you were standing somewhere public (on a platform, a public sidewalk, etc) then I hope we'd all rise up in defense of anyone telling you to get lost.
BUT-- if you were standing "in the gravel" or on tracks (!!) or somewhere nonpublic, then I got nothin' for ya... *sigh*
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
quote:Gilbert...just so we're clear, are you of the opinion that passengers should NOT be allowed to take photographs of the train they are on/about to be on/just got off off from the platform
If I were on an Amtrak journey and had a camera with me, I would only feel comfortable today taking a photo of others in my party boarding or alighting the train (absent interference to others), in a room, or if no one else at the table, in the Diner. As for scenes, out the window is fair game, but I would not be walking to the head of the train to take a 'railfan' photo.
Further, I would not take a photo on any employee without express permission; same applies to another passenger outside of my party.
Founded or otherwise, railfanning is a "suspicious activity" and the public has been indoctrinated to 'see something?, say something'. When they "say something", law enforcement is obligated to investigate.
A ticket is not any kind of a photo permit, it is simply evidence of a transportation contract.
Owing to all of the above, railfanning (even standing about or sitting in an auto "watching 'em go by") is one of those activities that is simply part of my "past life".
O tempora O mores.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
To get a grasp of how silly ANY photograph ban of ANYTHING in transportation is in the USA, there is a very public web site on airports that gives you all you would ever need to know for targeting information, including such things as runway location, length orientation, fuel storage capacity, number and nature of flights, etc., you get the picture.
Goes back to one of my fathers WW2 stories: Quantity of specific food items required by various bases in the US were classified on the grounds that the manpower there could be calculated therefrom. Yet another agency in the Pentagon would happily given anybody the manpower figures for any given base in the US.
Posted by Vicki (Member # 3410) on :
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: [QUOTE] I would not be walking to the head of the train to take a 'railfan' photo.
. . . railfanning is a "suspicious activity"
. . ., railfanning (even standing about or sitting in an auto "watching 'em go by") is one of those activities that is simply part of my "past life".
What is meant by the term "railfanning"? I heard it but never considered what it meant.
Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :
Vicki - "railfanning" is any activity which is pursued for no other reason than the simple pleasure of watching trains and looking at railroad-related stuff. Many of us on this forum are "railfans" -- our "hobby" is railroading.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
To slightly elaborate Mr. Rich's point, Miss Vickie, along with watching trains includes photographing them. That is the reason there has been much discussion here at the Forum regarding the efficacy of rail photography.
At Joliet, possibly you have noted persons standing about the ends of the station platforms, maybe dressed in railroad apparel, and carrying cameras. With the crossing of the Rock Island and both the GM&O and AT&SF at the station, Joliet has long been considered a "railfan hot spot'.
Posted by JONATHON (Member # 2899) on :
And dont froget Riding Trains to!- Thats a Railfan Activity'
Posted by Vicki (Member # 3410) on :
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman:
At Joliet, possibly you have noted persons standing about the ends of the station platforms, maybe dressed in railroad apparel, and carrying cameras. With the crossing of the Rock Island and both the GM&O and ATSF at the station, Joliet has long been considered a "railfan hot spot'.
I've not noticed this but maybe I just wasn't aware. When we were at the station yesterday awaiting johnhedge's arrival I was the only one with a camera, lol. Of course, we don't hang out at the train station all that much. Funny thing tho, just watching the Texas Eagle go past made us so want to board a train and go somewhere, anywhere. Kind of like watching a pizza commercial and your mouth starts to water. We really felt bad we couldn't board the train and go too. Probably sounds silly. . .
Posted by rrrayinmd (Member # 4148) on :
Not silly at all Vicki....what do you think happens to each and every one of us here at this forum when we even so much as hear a train's mournful whistle in the still of a spring night with the full moon in the sky. By the sounds of it....you, also, are a RAILFAN!!
Posted by Ira Slotkin (Member # 81) on :
Aye. Not silly at all, Vicki... rrrayinmd has send it quite eloquently. Especially with the moon full just about now.
I see trains passing from the window of one of the offices I work at. There is a crossing nearby and so I hear the whistle, know they are coming and always look up wistfully...
Posted by Ira Slotkin (Member # 81) on :
Borrowing from rrayinmd for another trainku...
across the valley mournful whistle in the night my heart boards the train
Ira
Posted by train lady (Member # 3920) on :
that's lovely, Ira., Does it seem to anyone else that the train whistles are lacking these days? To me they sound so mechanical.As I sit writing this I am listening to a cassette called On the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe. It has all the sounds of trains and the whistles of "yore". It's great to have as background. Does anyone else have this tape?
Posted by Ira Slotkin (Member # 81) on :
Thanks trainlady I have LPs with that sort of stuff. Play it in the background when my son and I set up the trains. Yes, I still have LPs and a turntable in the livingroom.
Posted by train lady (Member # 3920) on :
Ira, so do we. I also have a 33 and 45 player and one that plays records from the early 1900s. You may kmpw the old victrola records.
Posted by rY. (Member # 3528) on :
Hmm.. I wonder how the "9/11 Police" would react if one of us traded out our cameras for a portable DAT recorder and pair of decent stereo condenser microphones...
"But officer, you admonished me for taking photos; I'm just trying to adjust my hobbies to keep pace with your 'security' requirements."
Posted by JONATHON (Member # 2899) on :
I've Download a few Recordings off on the Internet, but I havnt bought any Tapes or CDs yet- Maybe I'llm look into buying some.
Posted by JONATHON (Member # 2899) on :
I've Download a few Recordings off on the Internet, but I havnt bought any Tapes or CDs yet- Maybe I'llm look into buying some.
Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :
Every time I am anywhere around town within sight of the AMTRAK/CSX line through here, if I hear a train whistle, I will always go and find a nearby spot where I can watch the train go by -- it doesn't matter if it is a freight or if it AMTRAK!!
We live about a mile from the CSX/AMTRAK line here, and sleep with our window open at night, so we often hear freight trains passing through the area, and I always enjoy hearing the train whistles!
Posted by JONATHON (Member # 2899) on :
Awsome- Plus- Now that I turned 18, I'le be sending in a Photogrph of Amtrak That I took, Wish me luck!
Posted by Vicki (Member # 3410) on :
Best of Luck, Jonathon!
Posted by TwinStarRocket (Member # 2142) on :
I live within a mile of the Minneapolis-St. Paul depot. Each night as I hear the two toots from the Empire Builder I look at my clock and think "#7 is right on time tonight". Then I think of those lucky people who will watch the sun rise in North Dakota, and set over the peaks of Glacier Park, and rise again in the beautiful Columbia Gorge or the Cascades.
Sometimes I can walk quickly to the tracks just after the whistle and catch the folks settling into their bedrooms, or staring out of the dome lounge into the night. It is the same adventure that people have experienced for a century, and it gives me a sense of sharing with past generations. The whistle is part of what I like about my neighborhood. The Empire Builder has passed by my house for 75 years, and I feel that as long as it passes there is still a connection with a past I value.
Posted by train lady (Member # 3920) on :
good luck, Jonathon. With the talent you seem to have I doubt that you will need luck.
Posted by JONATHON (Member # 2899) on :