A line over permafrost. Maybe a line from lower 48 to Alaska sometime in the distant future.
Vicki Member # 3410
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quote:Originally posted by gp35: Maybe a line from lower 48 to Alaska sometime in the distant future.
Wouldn't that be wonderful?
notelvis Member # 3071
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Wow. And to think that some areas of China were still using mainline steam locomotives only a couple of years ago.
We're being blown away by the Chineese on investing in new rail infrastructure (and rail passenger service.)
gp35 Member # 3971
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If the labor here was as cheap as in China, we would have TVG type trains as our LD trains.
StonewallJones Member # 887
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I'd settle for train service to Wyoming, or South Dakota.
George Harris Member # 2077
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First, this is not China's Amtrak. This is a railroad into new territory built primarily for political reasons. It's primary purpose, without the political window dressing the boys in Beijing are so good at spouting, is to tighten the grip of the Beijing government on Tibet and to further increase the presence and influence of the majority Han Chinese over the Tibetans in their own area. They are right in the sense that Tibet left to its own devices was an undeveloped, primitive, backward place governed by a Buddhist theocracy. Seriously doubt that it's replacement by Beijing's anything but benevolent dictatorship is an improvement.
I do tend to believe that improved transportation is in general a good thing, but not so sure about this one.
As an exercise in railroad engineering and construction, it is impressive. 1140 km (710 miles) of new line Golmud to Lhasa, of which 960 km (600 miles) is at an elevation of above 4,000 m (13,000 feet), with the highest point at Tanggula Pass at 5,072 m (16,737 feet) elevation.
The coaches are not pressurized as some have reported, but there is oxygen available. The ventilation system is supposed to somehow enrich the oxygen in the atmosphere by removing some of the nitrogen, but how that is done was not explained. Pressurization is impractical, as if you did it you would either have to have airlocks at the ends of all cars or depressurize at each stop.
The permafrost issue here is somewhat different than in the arctic, because in the arctic most of the permafrost areas have very deep permafrost with a temperature well below freezing. It is stated that the Tibetan permafrost temperature is just a couple of degrees below freezing, so melting is much more likely. How the line holds up remains to be seen.
George
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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Here is coverage appearing in Today's New York Times. Apparently, the Times is not on Bejiing's "favorite list" as reported within the article, they were prepared to have a reporter (I would presume Matthew L Wald) ride the train as a paying customer, but the authorities denied journalistic credentials for such purpose.
Possibly "powers that be" were more benevolent towards towards Don Phillips of the NYT owned Herald Tribune.
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It's certainly a journey I'd like to make one day, but I feel I will be disappointed when I reach Lhasa. As George says, the Chinese are wiping out the native Tibetans, not to mention their peaceful culture and way of life. If you go, I urge you to find the few Tibetan hotels and restaurants left rather than Chinese ones.
GP35, this is no high-speed line. A maximum of 120kph on the regular soil; 100kph on the permafrost - 63mph and 75mph respectively.
I don't think the altitude will affect too many people more than shortness of breath, even without pressurised or oxygen-enriched coaches. I'm unfit yet still managed to climb Dead Woman's Pass in Peru at around 14,000ft. Sitting in a coach doing nothing at 16,000ft should be okay for all except those with lung problems.
Geoff M.
notelvis Member # 3071
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Interestingly, the newest edition of Trains Magazine has a photograph of a GE diesel in gray primer paint that is bound for Tibet. The unit is undergoing 'high altitude' testing near Colorado's Moffat Tunnel.
Same issue has an article detailing the phenomenal increase in intermodal container traffic on US Railroads from China. Interesting reading.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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For those of us here born when FDR was in the White House, "we saw it first hand". For others, take our word that the message conveyed in this non-rail New York Times article is where the USA was fifty years ago.
While today of course China has an extensive rail passenger network, and is developing some "state of the art' passenger rail lines equal to those of Western Europe and elsewhere in Asia, I think it be a safe bet that fifty years from now, unless the culture depicted in the article is soon reversed (government decree won't do it- they learned that back one day during 1989 at a place called Tianiman), passenger rail's "market share' will be no greater than that here in the US.
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I had the opportunity to visit Tibet when I was living in China from 2000-2003. However, I turned it down. I had heard first hand accounts from many people in Shanghai, etc that Tibet wasnt the glorious place it once was. In addition, the Chinese govt charges foreigners more than the chinese. Just enough to make $$$ off of them, but not too much to discourage them from going altogether. I decided it wasnt worth giving $$$ to the chinese govt to screw up tibet even further. Now with this train, Like George says, Tibet will go even more downhill.
Interesting sidenote, however, years ago when China first contemplated building this railroad, they consulted swiss engineers, who said it couldnt be done.
George Harris Member # 2077
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quote:Originally posted by MontanaJim: [QB the Chinese govt charges foreigners more than the chinese. Just enough to make $$$ off of them, but not too much to discourage them from going altogether.[/QB]
Must have been the way they price the tour packages. My one ride on their Railway, Beijing to Shenzhen in 1996 or early 97, I paid the price listed in the book. But then I threw away the return air ticket from the tour package to do it. Either way, I do not want the government there to get one more cent or Renminbi out of me than absolutely necessary.
No surprise about the "couldn't be done" for two reasons: First and foremost, quite a bit of this line is built on ground so fragile that long term stability is questionable, so the jury is really still out on whether this really has been done or is simply a temporary item. Second, the country is so different from any place in Europe, it probably was well off their charts in finding a beginning place to comprehend it.
George
MontanaJim Member # 2323
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I was referring to the tibet trip when i said foreigners are charged more. Everywhere else, I believe, the govt charges everyone the same.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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It appears that actor turned New York Times guest columnist Richard Gere is less than pleased with China's new railroad:
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Hello guys. Here's a link you can see lots of pictures of new rail in Tibet. If you can read Chinese, you will find more pic on it. This site is China's largest forum for railway fans.
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