The September 2006 issue of Trains Magazine is out and it contains an article detailing the problems with restoring the Sunset Limited east of New Orleans.
Of particular interest is the note that CSX has sold their Mobile Station (which Amtrak used also) to a condominium developer for demolition.
This demolition had been mentioned in an earlier thread touching off a fruitless search for confirmation (primarily by me) in the mainstream media.....the Mobile Newspaper for example. While I didn't find it, I had no reason to doubt the person who originally mentioned it. Now, thanks to Trains, we have this confirmation.
So......getting the Sunset back seems to hinge, in large part, on resolving station issues in Mobile, Pascagoula, and Gulport.
Posted by SunsetLtd (Member # 3985) on :
After hearing the story about the Mobile station being razed I asked my friends who were taking a trip to the Gulf Coast to go check out the stations for me. As it turns out Bay St.Louis is fine as well as Gulfport. They said that it looks like they are still finishing repairing the station in Gulfport. There was no station building in Biloxi so that remained intact but the mobile station had a work fence around it, so they might end up razing it. If that happens all you have to do is get one of those mobile stations that other stations get while their being renovated. Pascagoula is still damaged but is in the process of being repaired. All those repairs would sure speed up if they said the Sunset was going back east again!
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
UP razed our station, but that didn't stop Amtrak from stopping in Beaumont and keeping Beaumont as a change of crew stop. Everyone just stand around on the slab of concrete from the former station watching the parade of BNSF, KCS, CSX, NS, and UP until Amtrak arrives.
Posted by Boyce (Member # 2719) on :
Why would Pascagoula repair the station if its not going to be used? The Sunset will return but the question is when.
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
The worse part is if the Sunset returns East of NOL, it will still be tri-weekly. What a waste to what could be a very popular route.
Posted by SunsetLtd (Member # 3985) on :
Still it's a start if the train does go back. Eventually the Sunset will become daily service.
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
quote:Originally posted by SunsetLtd: Still it's a start if the train does go back. Eventually the Sunset will become daily service.
Not if states don't get involved. No daily Sunset anytime soon. I got this from a reliable source. I wish he had gave me more information on why not. The Florida to California Sunset route is a gold mine. It passes though 3 of the 4 largest states. And 4 of the nations 10 largest cities. It serve 14 cities with +100,000 populations. What is Amtrak thinking to neglect this route for so long?
Posted by SunsetLtd (Member # 3985) on :
It makes me think... did Amtrak get rid of the Sightseers on purpose in a attempt to downgrade it? If they like it of not the Sunset's ridership is increasing.. steadly. Soon it will have one of the higest riderships in the network and they won't be able to ingnore it any more. We should also take a stand about the delays just like they are doing with the Starlight, and also try to get the Sightseers back! That would generate lots more ridership and then they can restore it back to Florida!
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
Remember, the Sunset is still S L O W. And of course unreliable. Look up the Greyhound schedules between Houston or Beaumont and Mobile or Pensacola. If they left at the same time, you could be getting off the BUS in Mobile while the Sunset is still wandering through the swamps trying to find its way into New Orleans. Course Greyhound does this by having several buses bypass New Orleans altogether.
Some of this can not be imporved upon, but parts of it can. The eastern end could be imporved by a couple of hours with signals between Flomaton and Tallahassee and having the 79 mph speed limit this would permit instead of the current 59 mph. The time on the south Louisiana seems also to be a lot slower than the alignment would permit. Is it drawbridges with slow limits, unstable track, observation of slow speeds through towns, or what?
George
Posted by delvyrails (Member # 4205) on :
In Louisiana, the train needs to be rerouted via the straighter (and maybe faster) inland route through burgeoning Baton Rouge (metro population now one million plus). But it seems Amtrak is not allowed to--or is unwilling to--make any basic improvement of this sort.
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
If Amtrak reroute out of Beaumont via KCS line DeQuincy then UP to Kinder then Baton Rouge/NOL, 79 mph non-stop to Baton Rouge. I watched KCS freight trains doing near 70 mph along the line all the time. The down side, Lafayette and Lake Charles would lose service.
Posted by Benson (Member # 4421) on :
So in your guys' opinion, what would be the best way to get from Beaumont to New Orleans? Seems like from what you guys are saying the northern route would be faster.
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
quote:Originally posted by Benson: So in your guys' opinion, what would be the best way to get from Beaumont to New Orleans? Seems like from what you guys are saying the northern route would be faster.
The northern route would be light years faster. Sections on the southern route is very slow. Plus 4 stops, 0 stops on the northern route.
Posted by Benson (Member # 4421) on :
What do you mean by light years? How many hours are we talking here? Then why doesn't Amtrak reroute it then? Amtrak should take the fastest route wherever possible. Anyways, back to the old topic...Sunset east of New Orleans.
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
Currently it takes 8 hours from NOL to Beaumont. If Amtrak went through Baton Rouge from NOL to Beaumont, 3.5-4 hours. Why not reroute? Who knows what Amtrak thought process is. My guess would be the lost of Lafayette and Lake Charles. Unless Amtrak bus service serve those cities. Amtrak Bus could start in Lafayette, then hit every casino in between Lafayette and Lake Charles, then use the La' Bar'ge Casino complex in Lake Charles as the Amtrak bus stop. Then the bus meet the train at Beaumont. Don't start coughing. Beaumont is planning a multi-modal transit center for the new train station. Also Amtrak could make some money taking Beaumont passengers to the casino's.
Posted by SilverStar092 (Member # 2652) on :
The latest rumor I have heard here in FL is that Amtrak is in the process of qualifying crews between NOL and Pensacola. The assumption is that it would take longer than requalifying crews on the eastern end due to two factors: 1. Many NOL crew members have left and 2. Landmarks along the Gulf coast have drastically changed which means there is much more to learning the road. I don't know if this is rumor or fact but it gives me hope.
Posted by Benson (Member # 4421) on :
gp35, it's over 330 miles between Beaumont and New Orleans, I don't think it would be reasonable to make it in 4 hours. Also, it takes less than 7 hours westbound. It's 8 eastbound because of padding into NO.
SilverStar092, how good is the source of your info? Why are they only getting trained to Pascagola and not all the way to NO? Looking forward to replies.
Posted by Benson (Member # 4421) on :
I meant all the way Pensacola-Florida.
Posted by Benson (Member # 4421) on :
Actually, misread your post SilverStar092, sorry, disregard that last post. But is your source good?
Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :
Concerning rerouting the Sunset from Beaumont to New Orleans -- sure, good idea to serve Baton Rouge, BUT would KCS (or whatever other railroad owns that trackage) be interested? I would guess not........ And that reroute WOULD discontinue service to Lafayette and Lake Charles, which are fairly major cities along the LA Gulf Coast
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
quote:Originally posted by Benson: gp35, it's over 330 miles between Beaumont and New Orleans, I don't think it would be reasonable to make it in 4 hours. Also, it takes less than 7 hours westbound. It's 8 eastbound because of padding into NO.
SilverStar092, how good is the source of your info? Why are they only getting trained to Pascagola and not all the way to NO? Looking forward to replies.
Noooo, the distant between NOL and Beaumont in about 200 miles.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
I think I did these numbers once before, but here goes.
Southern Pacific (amtrak route) 0 New Orleans 145 Lafayette 219 Lake Charles 279 Beaumont 363 Houston
Kansas City Southern / Missouri Pacific 0 New Orleans 79 Baton Rouge 267 Beaumont 356 Houston if SP between Beaumont and Houston: 267 Beaumont 351 Houston
Going by way of Lake Charles: Kansas City Southern / Missouri Pacific 0 New Orleans 79 Baton Rouge 184 Kinder 218 Lake Charles 278 Beaumont 362 Houston
If you take the KCS and then the all ex-MoPac route west of Baton Rouge it is only 7 miles shorter than the SP and if you go MoPac to Iowa Jct. then Lake Charles it is with one mile of the all ex-SP route.
The time saving may not be that great, either.
George
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
quote:Originally posted by RRRICH: Concerning rerouting the Sunset from Beaumont to New Orleans -- sure, good idea to serve Baton Rouge, BUT would KCS (or whatever other railroad owns that trackage) be interested? I would guess not........ And that reroute WOULD discontinue service to Lafayette and Lake Charles, which are fairly major cities along the LA Gulf Coast
The KCS section of the line in from Beaumont to DeQuincy LA, about 50 miles. The remaining tracks from DeQuincy to NOL is UP. I would think UP would prefer Amtrak on the fast rural northern route. The southern route is industrial, curves, slow bridges, freight yards. But like you said, Amtrak would lose two mid-size markets.
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
quote:Originally posted by George Harris: I think I did these numbers once before, but here goes.
Southern Pacific (amtrak route) 0 New Orleans 145 Lafayette 219 Lake Charles 279 Beaumont 363 Houston
Kansas City Southern / Missouri Pacific 0 New Orleans 79 Baton Rouge 267 Beaumont 356 Houston if SP between Beaumont and Houston: 267 Beaumont 351 Houston
Going by way of Lake Charles: Kansas City Southern / Missouri Pacific 0 New Orleans 79 Baton Rouge 184 Kinder 218 Lake Charles 278 Beaumont 362 Houston
If you take the KCS and then the all ex-MoPac route west of Baton Rouge it is only 7 miles shorter than the SP and if you go MoPac to Iowa Jct. then Lake Charles it is with one mile of the all ex-SP route.
The time saving may not be that great, either.
George
The distant is about the same, but you need to calculate the 4 stops on the southern route, the traffic, the slow limit areas, the slow curves, and the slow bridges. The northern route would require 1 slow down in DeQuincy, the remaining route is high speed.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
quote:Originally posted by RRRICH: Concerning rerouting the Sunset from Beaumont to New Orleans -- sure, good idea to serve Baton Rouge, BUT would KCS (or whatever other railroad owns that trackage) be interested? I would guess not........ And that reroute WOULD discontinue service to Lafayette and Lake Charles, which are fairly major cities along the LA Gulf Coast
Key issue here is that KCS was freight only by the end of 1969 or so. They had no passenger trains left to convey to Amtrak on 5-1-71 and therefore never entered into any contractual agreement to join Amtrak. The Sunset operates via the SP line because that's where it was in 1971.
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
If I was UP, I would build a line parallel to KCS line to DeQuincy. Then use northern route as east bound, southern route as west bound.
Posted by RRCHINA (Member # 1514) on :
GP35 If you were UP how would you justify to your shareholders the expense to construct this line?
So many things look good on paper but would we, each of us, spend our money on projects or products without having a reasonable expectation that the item we create would be beneficial to both our customer and to the intity which provides the initial investment?
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
quote:The distant is about the same, but you need to calculate the 4 stops on the southern route, the traffic, the slow limit areas, the slow curves, and the slow bridges. The northern route would require 1 slow down in DeQuincy, the remaining route is high speed. [/QB]
A stop from 79 mph and accelerating back to 79 mph takes station dwell time plus three minutes plus or minus a few seconds, so each stops adds 5 to 8 minutes to the non-stop time. You will be making a few stops on the norhtern route as well. The pre-Amtrak passenger schedules of the MoPac and SP were not that much different, either. Don't forget 20 mph over the Mississippi River Bridge at Baton Rouge and the sharp curve on the east end. I think the time saving is mostly imaginary.
George
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
quote:Originally posted by George Harris:
quote:The distant is about the same, but you need to calculate the 4 stops on the southern route, the traffic, the slow limit areas, the slow curves, and the slow bridges. The northern route would require 1 slow down in DeQuincy, the remaining route is high speed.
A stop from 79 mph and accelerating back to 79 mph takes station dwell time plus three minutes plus or minus a few seconds, so each stops adds 5 to 8 minutes to the non-stop time. You will be making a few stops on the norhtern route as well. The pre-Amtrak passenger schedules of the MoPac and SP were not that much different, either. Don't forget 20 mph over the Mississippi River Bridge at Baton Rouge and the sharp curve on the east end. I think the time saving is mostly imaginary.
George [/QB]
What few stops on the north route? Clear high balling between Baton Rouge and Dequincy
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
quote:Originally posted by RRCHINA: GP35 If you were UP how would you justify to your shareholders the expense to construct this line?
So many things look good on paper but would we, each of us, spend our money on projects or products without having a reasonable expectation that the item we create would be beneficial to both our customer and to the intity which provides the initial investment?
UP is spending millions to double track the west. A 50 mile line could complete a double line from Beaumont to NOL.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
As I said before, The pre-Amtrak running times via Baton Rouge and via Lafayette were very little different. this is true even considering using KCS between Baton Rouge and New Orleans,which was about 15 minutes faster than the ICRR track tha PoPac used.
Sorry, but major time savings by the northern route are imaginary.
George
Posted by delvyrails (Member # 4205) on :
Why does Amtrak exist? To get people from where they are to where they want to be. It follows that the populations of the places on Amtrak routes is a most important factor in what Amtrak's revenue and public utility will be.
Now by the 2000 census, metro NO had 1.3M and Baton Rouge, 706k. From what we hear, those numbers are approximately reversed. Therefore putting BR on the Amtrak system and allowing those 1.3M to reach major places elsewhere (Houston, LA, Chicago, the Northeast, etc.) is Amtrak's proper job.
With rerouting, the only metro areas not directly served (30 miles away is to far?) would be Houma (194k) and Lafayette (239k). Lake Charles could be directly served by using the cross link between Kinder and Iowa Jc. If Amtrak is to be run in a publicly responsive manner, that 1.3M now in BR is now more important than maintaining the status quo convenience for the 194k plus 239k.
A responsive organization would find a way to put BR on an east-west route, if not on a route to Chicago (via Hammond?), too.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
We have somewhat gotten away from east of New Orleans, haven't we?
My only thought against moving the train to a Baton Rouge routing is that this would take public transport out of a part of Louisiana that is poorly served. Of course until the Sunset becomes daily and maintains a better approximation of its schedule it is not really proviiding any meaningful service to these points eitehr.
My primary issue with gp35 is that the huge time savings he sees by going through baton Rouge really do not exist.
To make the Iowa Jct. to Kinter switchover is more feasible than it used to be. Before the UP takeover of SP that was a 25 to 30 mph piece of railroad. It is now a 49 mph (for freight) segment. A new connection would have to be built for a more direct access to the bridge at Baton Rouge as, if my look at maps is correct, the direct line used by MoPac passenger trains has been taken up. When I was down in the Opalousas area some 25 year ago, the MoPac line was pretty beat up looking 115 lb jointed rail with early 50's rolling dates. I would assume that this is now in CWR, but maybe not. I would hate to see them try to run a 79P/60F railroad on that stuff, and I do understand that the freights are now allowed 60 mph on this line.
There is the possibiliy of running a bus connection Lafayette to Baton Rouge, and having a Baton Rouge to New Orleans train just to serve those two cities.
George
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
quote:Originally posted by George Harris: As I said before, The pre-Amtrak running times via Baton Rouge and via Lafayette were very little different. this is true even considering using KCS between Baton Rouge and New Orleans,which was about 15 minutes faster than the ICRR track tha PoPac used.
Sorry, but major time savings by the northern route are imaginary.
George
Different era different condition of tracks. You can't use 35 year old data for today. When going to the Kinder Casino, I observe the trains running parallel to highway 190. We matched speeds to a freight train doing 67 mph. I dont know the condition of the tracks 35 years ago, but today they are very good. If 2 freight trains raced from the Rose City split to New Orleans, following all speed restrictions, clear track, the northern train would win by a 2-3 maybe 4 hours. QUESTION; at Orange, does your maps show how an east bound train will turn back northwest before turning east again?
Posted by Tanner929 (Member # 3720) on :
"A city should be judged by how it treats its Train Station" while the Mobile station is not a classic station or arcitechual landmark why cant they incorporate the station with the station? are they moving the tracks too?
Posted by Boyce (Member # 2719) on :
Originally posted by Tanner929: "A city should be judged by how it treats its Train Station"
Having been born and raised in Mobile, this is insulting, when the city is not to blame. David Pressley stated that "Of particular interest is the note that CSX has sold their Mobile Station (which Amtrak used also) to a condominium developer for demolition.
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
Mobile should seek federal grants to build a transit center. Put Amtrak, Greyhound, city bus, taxi, All public transit under 1 roof. Thats the plan in Beaumont.
Posted by Benson (Member # 4421) on :
Lets get back on topic- Sunset east of NO. I am interested to hear about what's going on.
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
East of NOL is coming back. Daily service, not anytime soon.
Posted by RRCHINA (Member # 1514) on :
gp35, yours of 8-02 informs that UP is spending $M to install double track in the west. True of course, but you can be assured that an economic analysis indicated that these expenditures would pay for themselves. You and myself do not have sufficient (any?) data that would justify double track at this location. Acknowledging that disqualifies both of us from being in a position to say "if I was UP I would build a line parallel to KCS to DeQuincy."
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
quote:Originally posted by RRCHINA: gp35, yours of 8-02 informs that UP is spending $M to install double track in the west. True of course, but you can be assured that an economic analysis indicated that these expenditures would pay for themselves. You and myself do not have sufficient (any?) data that would justify double track at this location. Acknowledging that disqualifies both of us from being in a position to say "if I was UP I would build a line parallel to KCS to DeQuincy."
You may be disqualified, but I'm quilified to say anything I darn want. If you want to know why I said UP should invest, I will tell you. But don't tell me what I can say or not say.
Posted by RRCHINA (Member # 1514) on :
GP35, SIR, YOU OF COURSE MAY SAY WHATEVER YOU WISH BUT YOU MAY WISH TO CONSIDER THE CREDIBILITY YOU ACQUIRE. I SHALL WITHDRAW FROM FURTER COMMENTS ON THIS.
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
quote:Originally posted by RRCHINA: GP35, SIR, YOU OF COURSE MAY SAY WHATEVER YOU WISH BUT YOU MAY WISH TO CONSIDER THE CREDIBILITY YOU ACQUIRE. I SHALL WITHDRAW FROM FURTER COMMENTS ON THIS.
You do understand none of us is in any position to dictator Amtrak or UP. Which means anything we say means nothing. Therefore anyone of us is free to say Amtrak should invest in a line on the Moon.
Posted by Pojon2 (Member # 4048) on :
Enough, already!!!! Again, when the hell is Amtrrak going to give us back the Sunset from NOL to Orlando? We need it now!
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pojon2: Enough, already!!!! Again, when the hell is Amtrrak going to give us back the Sunset from NOL to Orlando? We need it now!
Ask Amtrak. If we knew, it would be posted.
Posted by SilverStar092 (Member # 2652) on :
Benson: Sorry for the delay in replying. I have been away including a nice trip on the AutoTrain. My source is very good and I now have confirmation from a second solid source that requalifying crews is in the works. I still don't know if this means it has begun or is about to begin. The probable reason for requalifying west of Pensacola first is that the railroad looks very different after Katrina than before with many landmarks now gone. Visual appearance is important in knowing the railroad the way operating crews must know it. Also many New Orleans based crews may have relocated so there could be new crews to train. East of Pensacola is more of a refresher.
Posted by Benson (Member # 4421) on :
SilverStar, thanks for the reply. But could you identify your sources? And why couldn't you ask your sources when/if the service is coming back. If you have good sources, might as well ask them more questions so you know more.
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
My good source says no daily service anytime soon. Incredible stupid on Amtraks part. Sunset could make a profit or come close with daily Auto-train service coast to coast.
Posted by 1702 (Member # 4508) on :
quote:Originally posted by gp35: My good source says no daily service anytime soon. Incredible stupid on Amtraks part. Sunset could make a profit or come close with daily Auto-train service coast to coast.
Having worked aboard the Sunset from 1997 to 2005, I see very little market there for a coast to coast auto train service on that route. I base this on the fact that the number of passengers who travel thru from west coast to east & v.v. is relatively small. The Sunset is basically an L.A. to New Orleans & (pre-Katrina) New Orleans-Florida train.
Another factor would be the added delays at San Antonio when the thru coach & sleeper for the Texas Eagle are switched in & out, since they'd be ahead of the auto carriers. We suffered delays every trip at San Antonio in the boxcar era.....wouldn't want to see them go back to that again.
My understanding of the Auto-Train's appeal is the avoidance of the miserable trip on I-95. Most folks traveling by car from Florida to Calif./v.v. are going to want to do at least some sightseeing along the way. Plus there isn't nearly as much seasonal travel east/west as there is north/south.
Posted by delvyrails (Member # 4205) on :
1702, not sure I entirely agree with you. All of the people I've talked to indicated they drove very long distances not for shun-piking or touring or sightseeing but merely to get themselves and/or their car there, usually via I-highways all the way.
That is the general market for autos on trains which has some potential on every long Amtrak route. Not 12 to 18 auto-carrier cars as on Auto Train, but two to six attached to trains that already run.
Ironically, the reported worst part of a New York City-Florida drive is New York through northern Virginia, say at I-95 interchange 163, which happens to be adjacent to the Lorton Auto Train terminal!
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
quote:Having worked aboard the Sunset from 1997 to 2005, I see very little market there for a coast to coast auto train service on that route.
Did not amtrak say the samething when tbey canceled the Texas EAGLE?
quote: I base this on the fact that the number of passengers who travel thru from west coast to east & v.v. is relatively small. The Sunset is basically an L.A. to New Orleans & (pre-Katrina) New Orleans-Florida train.
maybe you should add to your fact sunset is tri-weekly. Who among us find planning a trip tri-weekly easy?
quote:
Another factor would be the added delays at San Antonio when the thru coach & sleeper for the Texas Eagle are switched in & out, since they'd be ahead of the auto carriers. We suffered delays every trip at San Antonio in the boxcar era.....wouldn't want to see them go back to that again.
change the time, have passengers switch trains.
quote: My understanding of the Auto-Train's appeal is the avoidance of the miserable trip on I-95. Most folks traveling by car from Florida to Calif./v.v. are going to want to do at least some sightseeing along the way. Plus there isn't nearly as much seasonal travel east/west as there is north/south.
Let me repeat the facts on the Sunset route. LA-Orlando.
3 of 4 largest states. 4 of the nations 10 largest cities. 14 cities with +100,000 populations. Stevie Wonder can see a market is there. Florida to California autotrain would a HUGE success. You cant fairly judge this route on tri-weekly service. I cant begin to count the number of times I passed on Amtrak because of tri-weekly.
Posted by 1702 (Member # 4508) on :
[/QUOTE]Let me repeat the facts on the Sunset route. LA-Orlando.
3 of 4 largest states. 4 of the nations 10 largest cities. 14 cities with +100,000 populations. Stevie Wonder can see a market is there. Florida to California autotrain would a HUGE success. You cant fairly judge this route on tri-weekly service. I cant begin to count the number of times I passed on Amtrak because of tri-weekly. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Can you quote any marketing studies to back this up? I speak from experience in knowing where the Sunset's passengers on & off points are & that those in coach & sleeper going coast-to-coast are relatively few. I'm sure you're aware that the Sunset Limited's tri-weekly status goes back to about 1970. Of course it would be much better if the train was daily, but I heard very few complaints about its being tri-weekly. Folks seem to be able to work their plans around it quite well.
Your answer to my concerns about the switching delays at San Antonio was to propose that the thru cars (both of which consistently sell out) be discontinued & Texas Eagle passengers be forced to change trains. This is progress?
Perhaps you know of a location between LAX & say, Palm Springs, where a facility could be built to handle the loading & unloading of the auto carriers without "breaking the bank". On the east end, it would logically have to terminate at Sanford, the only facility already set up for such work.
The best untapped market for another auto-train service would seem to be from the Chicago area to Florida, but finding a speedy routing for that is another story. Possibly Chicago-LAX on the Southwest Chief would work, but once again where would Amtrak locate facilities for the auto carriers? Oh, I forgot, I'm sure you know all about that.
Oh, your description of how big the market is between LAX & Florida is just that.....BETWEEN the two. I would hope that you are not envisioning the Sunset picking up & setting out auto carriers along the way. Been there, done that with the express boxcars. Nothing but a huge waste of time & effort on Amtrak's part as that whole business never made a dime & caused delay upon delay for the passengers. Let's not go down that road again.
But whadda I know....I only spent about 12 days a month for 7 years running from LAX to Orlando. Your "experience" seems to be in the area of NOT taking the poor ol' tri-weekly Sunset. Even Stevie Wonder can see that!
Now, don't get your knickers in a twist firing back at me......I've had my say. Let's just see them dadgum marketing studies! Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
I continue to reiterate, and based upon 15 Auto Train trips over the years (including one on the private operation), overnight is quite enough, thank you.
AT passengers are not railfans, they are not even people who savor the enjoyment and relazation of an LD travel experience. They simply want to move their auto, which in season is quite likely a Bennie, Caddy, or Lex, for an extended visit - often to a vacation home and "for the season'. They know that I-95 can be a less than pleasant travel experience; while snow is uncommon, ice and fog are par for the course. The 18-wheelers are not too nice to folk who wish to observe the posted speed limit. "South of the Border" is fun for one visit - get's old after that.
In short, I'm painting a picture of people that find AT the lesser of evils, just let's get it on and get it over with.
I do not see any market whatever on the Sunset Route and I don't see any AT passenger I've met over the years (can't recall ever meeting a fan unless within my own party) accepting a three day coast to coast "Auto Train" experience. Lest we forget, one night and two full days Sanford-Louisville was tried out by the private concern circa 1976 - and it flopped. Amtrak considered an Indianapolis-Poinciana service, but saw the "writing on the wall" and canned that. This however was after having built the Fla .terminal.
As I've previously noted here, if Amtrak is ever in a position to consider "Auto Train Service" on existing routes and trains, here would be my "trial balloons".
Ottumwa-Denver Ft Madison-La Junta Albuquerque-San Bernardino
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
quote:
Can you quote any marketing studies to back this up? I speak from experience in knowing where the Sunset's passengers on & off points are & that those in coach & sleeper going coast-to-coast are relatively few. I'm sure you're aware that the Sunset Limited's tri-weekly status goes back to about 1970. Of course it would be much better if the train was daily, but I heard very few complaints about its being tri-weekly. Folks seem to be able to work their plans around it quite well.
Ummm, you could try checking the U.S. Census. in population 1. California 2. Texas 3. New York 4. Florido Hence 3 of 4 biggest states. You could research the rest.
quote: Your answer to my concerns about the switching delays at San Antonio was to propose that the thru cars (both of which consistently sell out) be discontinued & Texas Eagle passengers be forced to change trains. This is progress?
do one not have to change train going from Houston to Atlanta? Atlanta to Chicago? Dallas to Houston? is it such a big deal
quote: Perhaps you know of a location between LAX & say, Palm Springs, where a facility could be built to handle the loading & unloading of the auto carriers without "breaking the bank". On the east end, it would logically have to terminate at Sanford, the only facility already set up for such work.
anywhere in the California area...near the tracks ofcourse.
quote: The best untapped market for another auto-train service would seem to be from the Chicago area to Florida, but finding a speedy routing for that is another story.
thats a good choice too. +12 million Chicago msa to Florida's near 20 million.
quote: Possibly Chicago-LAX on the Southwest Chief would work, but once again where would Amtrak locate facilities for the auto carriers? Oh, I forgot, I'm sure you know all about that.
another good Auto-train route. I would locate it near the tracks.
quote: Oh, your description of how big the market is between LAX & Florida is just that.....BETWEEN the two. I would hope that you are not envisioning the Sunset picking up & setting out auto carriers along the way. Been there, done that with the express boxcars. Nothing but a huge waste of time & effort on Amtrak's part as that whole business never made a dime & caused delay upon delay for the passengers. Let's not go down that road again.
Auto-train at flags stops...hmmmm, maybe. I would put AUTO-TRAIN stops at LA area, Florida, Houston or better San Antonio.
quote:
But whadda I know....I only spent about 12 days a month for 7 years running from LAX to Orlando. Your "experience" seems to be in the area of NOT taking the poor ol' tri-weekly Sunset. Even Stevie Wonder can see that!
Now, don't get your knickers in a twist firing back at me......I've had my say. Let's just see them dadgum marketing studies!
Texas Eagle was doing as bad as the Sunset before it went Daily. Am I wrong in assuming it was the daily schedule that turned that train around? yes or no.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
[/QUOTE]Texas Eagle was doing as bad as the Sunset before it went Daily. Am I wrong in assuming it was the daily schedule that turned that train around? yes or no. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Actually gp35 it was a well organized and energetic grassroots promotion......one which NARP now hopes to use as a model for other long-distance Amtrak routes......that deserves most of the credit for the Texas Eagle turnaround. The daily schedule was merely bonus. Your calling out someone who actually worked aboard the 'Sunset Limited' and has a pretty good idea of that train's traffic pattern is more than a little unsettling too.
I agree with Mr. Norman that the typical AT passenger is only going to be good for one overnight......maybe.....maybe up to 22 hours if you're lucky.
One thought which I've put forward before ......if Amtrak does seriously look at experimenting with an auto service on existing long-distance trains, an auto loading facility in the Illinois cornfields near Galesburg makes sense because it could serve both the 'California Zephyr' and 'Southwest Chief'.
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
quote:
Actually gp35 it was a well organized and energetic grassroots promotion......one which NARP now hopes to use as a model for other long-distance Amtrak routes......that deserves most of the credit for the Texas Eagle turnaround. The daily schedule was merely bonus. Your calling out someone who actually worked aboard the 'Sunset Limited' and has a pretty good idea of that train's traffic pattern is more than a little unsettling too.
I agree with Mr. Norman that the typical AT passenger is only going to be good for one overnight......maybe.....maybe up to 22 hours if you're lucky.
One thought which I've put forward before ......if Amtrak does seriously look at experimenting with an auto service on existing long-distance trains, an auto loading facility in the Illinois cornfields near Galesburg makes sense because it could serve both the 'California Zephyr' and 'Southwest Chief'.
I think it's more unsettling that you would deny my right to my opinion. The logic around here seems to be if a 3 wheel car won't ride stable, logics says adding a 4th won't work either. I don't care if an experts is speaking, experts could be wrong too. Do you want me to post for you the experts opinion of how this hurricane season was suppose to turn out? How about the experts opinion pre-2006 super bowl?
And my favorite list of experts and their expert advice.
"Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons." --Popular Mechanics, forecasting the relentless march of science,1949 "I think there is a world market for maybe five computers." --Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943 "I have traveled the length and breadth of this country and talked with the best people, and I can assure you that data processing is a fad that won't last out the year." --The editor in charge of business books for Prentice Hall, 1957 "But what ... is it good for?" --Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM, 1968, commenting on the microchip. "There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home." --Ken Olson, president, chairman and founder of Digital Equipment Corp., 1977 "This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us." -- Western Union internal memo, 1876. "The wireless music box has no imaginable commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?" --David Sarnoff's associates in response to his urgings for investment in the radio in the 1920s. "The concept is interesting and well-formed, but in order to earn better than a 'C,' the idea must be feasible." --A Yale University management professor in response to Fred Smith's paper proposing reliable overnight delivery service. (Smith went on to found Federal Express Corp.) "Who the hell wants to hear actors talk?" --H.M. Warner, Warner Brothers, 1927. "I'm just glad it'll be Clark Gable who's falling on his face and not Gary Cooper." --Gary Cooper on his decision not to take the leading role in "Gone With The Wind." "A cookie store is a bad idea. Besides, the market research reports say America likes crispy cookies, not soft and chewy cookies like you make." --Response to Debbi Fields' idea of starting Mrs. Fields' Cookies. "We don't like their sound, and guitar music is on the way out." --Decca Recording Co. rejecting the Beatles, 1962. "Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible." --Lord Kelvin, president, Royal Society, 1895. "Sensible and responsible women do not want to vote." --Grover Cleveland, U.S. President, 1905. "If I had thought about it, I wouldn't have done the experiment. The literature was full of examples that said you can't do this." --Spencer Silver on the work that led to the unique adhesives for 3-M "Post-It" Notepads. "So we went to Atari and said, 'Hey, we've got this amazing thing, even built with some of your parts, and what do you think about funding us? Or we' ll give it to you. We just want to do it. Pay our salary, we'll come work for you.' And they said, 'No.' So then we went to Hewlett-Packard, and they said, 'Hey, we don't need you. You haven't got through college yet.'" -- Apple Computer Inc. founder Steve Jobs on attempts to get Atari and H-P interested in his and Steve Wozniak's personal computer. "Professor Goddard does not know the relation between action and reaction and the need to have something better than a vacuum against which to react. He seems to lack the basic knowledge ladled out daily in high schools." -- 1921 New York Times editorial about Robert Goddard's revolutionary rocket work. "You want to have consistent and uniform muscle development across all of your muscles? It can't be done. It's just a fact of life. You just have to accept inconsistent muscle development as an unalterable condition of weight training." --Response to Arthur Jones, who solved the "unsolvable" problem by inventing Nautilus. "Drill for oil? You mean drill into the ground to try and find oil? You're crazy." --Drillers who Edwin L. Drake tried to enlist to his project to drill for oil in 1859. "Stocks have reached what looks like a permanently high plateau." --Irving Fisher, Professor of Economics, Yale University, 1929. "Airplanes are interesting toys but of no military value." --Marechal Ferdinand Foch, Professor of Strategy, Ecole Superieure de Guerre. "Everything that can be invented has been invented." --Charles H. Duell, Commissioner, U.S. Office of Patents, 1899. "Louis Pasteur's theory of germs is ridiculous fiction". --Pierre Pachet, Professor of Physiology at Toulouse, 1872. "The abdomen, the chest, and the brain will forever be shut from the intrusion of the wise and humane surgeon". --Sir John Eric Ericksen, British surgeon, appointed Surgeon-Extraordinary to Queen Victoria 1873. "640K ought to be enough for anybody." -- Bill Gates, 1981
Posted by Geoff M (Member # 153) on :
I know the current Autotrain takes a lot of chilly crumblies from up north and defrosts them down south - but is there a similar large market across the width of the south of the country? Ignore actual ridership on the Sunset - is there a migratory movement like down the east coast, be it by plane or bus?
Geoff M.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
I really do not see an equivalent elsewhere. Even in the days of of passenger service everywhere, the northeast to Florida market was huge in proportion to its population. The largest was probably New York area to Chicago area, but that probably does not lend itself to Autotraining near to the extent that the NE-FL line does.
Admittedly the California population is now much larger, but Chicago to Los Angeles never supported as many trains as NY-FL, even though there were three major railroad routes competing for that one isntead of only two to Florida.
Even at Best, if you did a Galesburg to Barstow you would still be looking at two nights on the train. I agree with Mr. Norman. The Auto crowd probably for the most part has a one night limit, so if this is ever planned, it should be market tested before making major investments in facilities.
Why did I pick Barstow? Of course the current scheduled time is too early AM, but this area has the open land that a place much closer to LA does not, and it gives you about a 6 hour drive to San Francisco also without having to involve yourself with any part of the LA blob. Maybe the predawn is reasonable. Unhitch the whole thing and unload the autos while the passengers are still sleeping.
George
Posted by delvyrails (Member # 4205) on :
George Harris, why wouldn't two nights moving forward on a train be better than two nights (or more) delayed while staying at motels? Seems to me that the LONGER the trip, the more competitive with driving autos-on-trains would be.
Note that the largest long distance market is New York-Miami with 4700 average daily round trips by all modes, but New York-Los Angeles is 3500 (calculated from figures in the NARP website). It's quite a few more miles for the latter trip; so the potential passenger miles and revenue are larger than for New York-Miami.
Even for the longest travel markets, those over 1500 miles, 14.8% drive while 0.8% take the train (Bureau of Transportation Statistics: "America on the go"). So even a little shift from driving all the way to autos-on-train would represent a significant addition to the number of passengers on (and revenue for) existing trains.
Amtrak needs to find a way or make one.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
quote:Originally posted by notelvis:
One thought which I've put forward before ......if Amtrak does seriously look at experimenting with an auto service on existing long-distance trains, an auto loading facility in the Illinois cornfields near Galesburg makes sense because it could serve both the 'California Zephyr' and 'Southwest Chief'.
A good point, Mr. Presley.
I was attempting to identify locations away from the Chicago area because elder folk are (any many had best be) reluctant to drive in an unfamiliar urban setting. Further, I would like to make the service a "draw" for markets such as Indianapolis, St Louis and Minneapolis as well.
But Galesburg is accessible by Interstates, would have ready access to switching with the large BNSF presence there, and would enable one facility to serve two trains.
I totally concur.
Posted by delvyrails (Member # 4205) on :
But for those people who would take their car along on the trains from the Northeast to California, why should they have to take their car off the train out in the boondocks at say, Elkhart, IN, and drive through all the mess of Chicago-area traffic to another boondocks location, Galesburg, IL?
Posted by 1702 (Member # 4508) on :
quote:Originally posted by Geoff M: I know the current Autotrain takes a lot of chilly crumblies from up north and defrosts them down south - but is there a similar large market across the width of the south of the country? Ignore actual ridership on the Sunset - is there a migratory movement like down the east coast, be it by plane or bus?
Geoff M.
Being a former long-time southern Calif. resident, the short answer is "nope". IMHO, you have basically three traveling groups - businesspersons, vacationers, & seasonally migratory.
A businessperson simply isn't going from coast to coast by train in anything but the most minimal numbers, even if they could take their cars with them. And who'd want to, when their employer is footing the bill for a rental car? Vacationers, particularly families, have pretty much interchangeable Disney, Universal, SeaWorld, etc. parks in Fla. & Calif. It's hard to envision large numbers of vacationers from Fla.heading to Calif.& v.v. Too many other good choices much closer to home. And no seasonal migratory traffic either. In short, no market for an auto train service on the Sunset Route end point to end point. And no amount of filibustering will make it so.
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
A 1 wheel car won't work, a 4 wheel car will be 4 times unlikely to work. End point end point And no amount of filibustering will make it so.
The sad fact is Amtrak prescribes to this type of thinking, this type of thinking will slowly lead to Amtrak LD trains death.
Posted by Geoff M (Member # 153) on :
From what I've been reading, that there is no market for coast-to-coast auto transportation, Amtrak would be foolish to try and "invent" a market when it doesn't exist. GP35, you just have to accept reality.
Personally I would disagree with putting auto terminals in Galesburg and Desertsburg purely because of the switching involved. If Amtrak had trouble chopping off a couple of wagons en-route, then they are going to have the same trouble with auto carriers. If there was a big enough market then run a seperate train.
What has a one-wheeled car got to do with anything? Dynospheres might have been touted in the 30s but not sure how relevant they are these days. Are you suggesting a dynosphere carrier? How many passengers do you expect to board with dynospheres? Or is this more blue-sky thinking?
Geoff M.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
quote:Originally posted by gp35: I think it's more unsettling that you would deny my right to my opinion.
No one, Mr. GP-35, has suggested your license (that is what you hold, as distinct from a right) to post here be suspended or revoked simply because you have taken a position contrary to that of others. But in "forumland", there cannot be any assurance that others will automatically agree with you.
After all, my personal thoughts regarding the LD system's economic necessity as well as any "obligations' the Class I's have to the traveling public beyond what is delineated in their proprietary contracts, i.e. you won't find them on the web, with Amtrak, are contrary to those held by many participants at this forum. But no one hears from me "I have the right to say it" and the corrollary implication "you had better agree with me or else".
Just some thoughts shared here in good faith.
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
quote:Originally posted by Geoff M: From what I've been reading, that there is no market for coast-to-coast auto transportation, Amtrak would be foolish to try and "invent" a market when it doesn't exist. GP35, you just have to accept reality.
How do you know there is no market? Has it been done recently?
Read...experts ""The concept is interesting and well-formed, but in order to earn better than a 'C,' the idea must be feasible." --A Yale University management professor in response to Fred Smith's paper proposing reliable overnight delivery service. (Smith went on to found Federal Express Corp.)"
"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers." --Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943
This forum thinks the sameway. It's a good thing many ignored those experts, too bad Amtrak is not.
quote: What has a one-wheeled car got to do with anything? Geoff M.
I was giving an example of the logical presented here.
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman:
quote:Originally posted by gp35: I think it's more unsettling that you would deny my right to my opinion.
No one, Mr. GP-35, has suggested your license (that is what you hold, as distinct from a right) to post here be suspended or revoked simply because you have taken a position contrary to that of others. But in "forumland", there cannot be any assurance that others will automatically agree with you.
After all, my personal thoughts regarding the LD system's economic necessity as well as any "obligations' the Class I's have to the traveling public beyond what is delineated in their proprietary contracts, i.e. you won't find them on the web, with Amtrak, are contrary to those held by many participants at this forum. But no one hears from me "I have the right to say it" and the corrollary implication "you had better agree with me or else".
Just some thoughts shared here in good faith.
I don't expect anyone to agree with me all the time. It's a free forum with free though. I don't like others expecting me to fall in line with their opinion then get mad when I challenge them on it.
Posted by Geoff M (Member # 153) on :
quote:Originally posted by gp35: [QUOTE]I don't expect anyone to agree with me all the time. It's a free forum with free though. I don't like others expecting me to fall in line with their opinion then get mad when I challenge them on it.
May I suggest going back over your answers and counting how many (a) you got "mad" in; (b) your reply was sarcastic; and (c) lacked any evidence to refute facts? Amongst your quotation research you may have noticed an expression involving black kettles and pots - take note!
Geoff M.
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
quote:Originally posted by Geoff M:
quote:Originally posted by gp35: [QUOTE]I don't expect anyone to agree with me all the time. It's a free forum with free though. I don't like others expecting me to fall in line with their opinion then get mad when I challenge them on it.
May I suggest going back over your answers and counting how many (a) you got "mad" in; (b) your reply was sarcastic; and (c) lacked any evidence to refute facts? Amongst your quotation research you may have noticed an expression involving black kettles and pots - take note!
Geoff M.
I got mad at someone telling me to fall in line with their opinion and leave it at that. Ofcourse you ignore that, but I doubt you would had I did the samething to someone else.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)