posted
I sent this email to Amtrak regarding my recent experience traveling alone with two small children. Forgive the excessive detail, it seems I needed to get it all out:
I recently traveled to Emeryville from Tacoma and back on the Coast Starlight with two small children. I know that the delays are hard on everyone, staff and passengers alike. I realize that staff members get tired of answering questions and dealing with customer's needs on such a long slow trip. Something needs to be done, though, to improve the experience of Coast Starlight passengers traveling with children.
On the way down, we took the number 11 train from Tacoma. I did my best to keep my five and three year olds quietly occupied while we waited for dinner to be announced. By 6:00, I realized that something was wrong. No one had come through our car taking dinner reservations and no announcements had reached us. I gathered up the kids and took them to the dining car, they immediately sprinted ahead which earned what I now realize is the customary snarl from the dining staff to remain in the doorway until called upon.
When we were eventually acknowledged in the doorway, I was told that since I didn't have a dinner reservation we would have to wait until 8:30. I explained that our car had been passed over for reservations and was told that that was not possible.
As more members of our car came to the dining car to ask about dinner, I pointed out that something had gone wrong and was told "yeah, that always happens to someone eventually." Eventually someone took pity on us and gave us a 6:30 reservation, if the three of us would share one side of a booth.
Finally seated, the kids had to wait some time before they could see a children's menu, which only included two dinner items. My daughter could not have the pizza, and another child seated across from us could not have a hot *** since those were lunch items. I had to order an adult pizza entree and split it with her.
The wait was long, and in such a cramped space I had all I could do to keep my fidgity five year old from pulling the table cloth off the table. Finally, we were done with our meal and I expected to pay and leave. The server came, took out our bill, and put it away again when the family seated across from us said they wanted desert. I did not want to feed my kids six dollar chocolate cake just then, but no one would come back with our bill until our dinner companions had finished off their desert in front of the children. The kids were predictably vocal about this and I was fuming. Eventually, the other family (who were fortunate enough to have a sleeper and not need a bill) got up and left and we waited *10 additional minutes* for a bill. By this point the entire dining car had been thoroughly disturbed by my children and I wanted to jump off the train and run away. No one apologized for the delay or even acknowledged a problem. I asked if it was customary to tip on trains and was told "I can't comment on that" with a shocked and offended look. That was the one and only attempt I made to eat in the dining car. The food from the snack car was not great but at least I could get it relatively quickly and without unnecessary pretension.
On both legs of our journey, there was a kid car. No one informed us of its presence and there was no literature anywhere on the train explaining the amenities. I discovered it myself the first morning. The kid car consisted of a gray carpeted room containing a small number of broken toys and a very tired (on the way back completely broken) VCR. On train 11 it was also used to store large amounts of garbage. The kids literally bounced off the walls and made their own games running from one end of the car to another.
On train 14 out of Emeryville, the atmosphere was generally a bit more kind. We were fortunate enough to be seated near some other passengers who had children of their own and were very helpful. I could have cried the first morning when the woman next to me brought me a cup of coffee. Something as simple as going to the snack car for a beverage is tremendously complicated when you have to cart two children with you through several cars just to get there.
Our car attendant (car 14 on that train) seemed less than thrilled to have so many children on board. I am sure it is difficult to cater to so many families, but I would have hoped she could have hid her feelings a bit more successfully. When I needed to take my three year old up and down the stairs she got very short with us several times about how long we were taking. I am sure she would not be so rude to an elderly person.
After delays between Eugene and Albany cost us another three hours, the crew decided to put on Curious George in the lounge for the children, since the vcr in the kid car was broken. I took my two glassy eyed girls to the lounge car where we wheedled our way into three seats amongst the rather drunken assemblage of adults.
About 45 minutes into the movie, and just after the lounge car attendent announced his meal break, my three year old started to cry because she was thirsty. She was also crying because she had been on a train for 24 hours with very little sleep. There were no more cups for the water in the lounge car. A very kind person with a sleeper car went to get her a drink, while a drunken woman explained to me that her mother never had such problems with her 7 brothers and sisters and yelled in her face "SAY I LOVE MOMMY."
I was not able to get her calmed down again and took her kicking and screaming, five year old sister in tow, all the way back through several cars to our seats and then to the kid car. No one offered to help or even seemed to notice while we struggled, the only reaction I ever got out of the crew was annoyance. She screamed for half an hour in the kid car, the only space a child could go to be loud without bothering the (by now almost uniformly drunk) adults, driving all the other children out in the process. She then had an accident. Throughout the process of leaving the lounge car, dealing with her in the kid car, going back upstairs to our car and getting a change of clothes for both of us, and changing, no crew member noticed that there was a problem and offered to help.
When the train left Olympia around 1 am (several hours late) I was afraid to let the children sleep, for fear I would drift off myself and not get them downstairs quickly enough when we reached Tacoma. Perhaps my fears were unfounded, but based on my experiences thus far I could not be certain that anyone would wake us up in time, or that if they did I would get any help gathering my children and our baggage. I thought I was probably on my own and got them up and downstairs about twenty minutes before Tacoma. Other passengers in the car came down as well, and were all nervous that no one would open the door. Again, I realize this may sound ridiculous, but how were we to have faith in good service now, having been completely ignored for the length of the trip? We hit the attendent button a few times but no one came down until we pulled into the station at 2 am.
Having now survived the trip, I have a few suggestions. I know that Amtrak has faced budget cuts recently and the crew is overworked and tired. A few minor changes, however, could greatly improve the quality of the experience for children on board and the people surrounding them.
1. fix the kid car. Obtain some less broken toys, even if they come from a thrift store or donations of crew member families. Make sure that each kid car has a functional VCR and check on it at least 3 times during the trip.
2. When a passenger gets on with small children, have the attendant for that car introduce themselves to them, and explain how to reach them if they need any help. Stop by once in the morning and once in the evening to ask if they need anything.
3. Have an early dinner seating for families with children. The kids will be fed and more content, and no one will have their fine dining experience interrupted by an excited toddler. Alternatively, offer to bring dinner to them in their seats.
4. Take extra care not to make children wait. No one should have to listen to a child cry because they want desert and they don't understand why mommy has to wait 10 minutes to pay the bill. Common sense ought to dictate that this is a very bad idea.
5. If a family is going to be getting off late at night, stop by to reassure them that you will wake them up and help them get everything before the train pulls out again. Make sure you indicate to them individually that you are aware of where they will be getting off and when then will be needing assistance.
6. Generally exercise patience and caring. If you see a child fussing and a parent struggling, offer to help or at least try to distract the child in some small way.
If there is one thing that is true of the Coast Starlight it is that no one is going to get anywhere fast. The children are not going to go anywhere. Ignoring them and snarling at their parents only serves to make everyone's experience extra miserable. I don't know if I will ever try the train again with children, but I hope future passengers won't go through the same stressful experience.
One note - Lou, the lounge car attendant on train 14 was simply wonderful, and the only crew member who kept his cool and maintained a positive, calming atmosphere in his car throughout our time on board.
Room Service Member # 2405
posted
Wow! Tell us how you REALLY feel!
notelvis Member # 3071
posted
If Amtrak desn't offer you a voucher towards a future trip......well......they should.
I'd advise using it towards travel on a different train though. Maybe the corridor trains which also serve your area......but more reliably.
D.P. Roberts Member # 4535
posted
quote:Originally posted by jenyum:
I was not able to get her calmed down again and took her kicking and screaming, five year old sister in tow, all the way back through several cars to our seats and then to the kid car. No one offered to help or even seemed to notice while we struggled, the only reaction I ever got out of the crew was annoyance. She screamed for half an hour in the kid car, the only space a child could go to be loud without bothering the (by now almost uniformly drunk) adults, driving all the other children out in the process. She then had an accident. Throughout the process of leaving the lounge car, dealing with her in the kid car, going back upstairs to our car and getting a change of clothes for both of us, and changing, no crew member noticed that there was a problem and offered to help.
6. Generally exercise patience and caring. If you see a child fussing and a parent struggling, offer to help or at least try to distract the child in some small way.
You obviously experienced some very poor service on this trip. While I don't want to make excuses for the service you received, I think you might be expecting too much from your train crew. Should they be patient and friendly? Of course. Should they go out of their way to do their best to serve you- bringing you drinks, food, or whatever? Sure. Bring your check to you as quickly as possible? Of course.
However, I think a line gets crossed- both in service and in legal terms- when you seem to ask Amtrak employees to "help" you with your children. If one of your children is screaming and having a fit, it is your job- and your job only- to get all your children back to your room. They cannot watch them for you, they cannot hold them for you, or carry them for you. And, although you or other parents may disagree- I don't see how the service attendants should "distract" or otherwise entertain your children. Their job should be to provide train-related services- taking care of food and drinks, preparing and cleaning rooms, and all the other sorts of onboard services that they're responsible for.
On a similar note, you made at least two or three references to "drunk" or "obviously drunk" passengers. While you may have found these passengers to be unpleasant, please understand that drinking on the train is perfectly legal and permissable. A train has a mixture of people, some of whom will drink- as long as they are not bothering other passengers (and you did not indicate that they were harassing you), I do not see how this should be an issue for you. While being around people who have been drinking may not have contributed to a "family" atmosphere, please understand that some people may not have been looking for that sort of atmosphere.
Again, I want to state that you obviously received poor customer service in many ways. However, in the two instances I mentioned, I think you may have expected more than Amtrak can or should deliver.
Room Service Member # 2405
posted
Read the letter little more carefully.
quote:If one of your children is screaming and having a fit, it is your job- and your job only- to get all your children back to your room.
She didn't have a room. She was in coach.
quote:A train has a mixture of people, some of whom will drink- as long as they are not bothering other passengers (and you did not indicate that they were harassing you), I do not see how this should be an issue for you.
A drunk woman was yelling in her daughters face, "SAY I LOVE MOMMY."
I'd call that "bothering other passengers".
1702 Member # 4508
posted
Having had 19 years experience working aboard Amtrak long-distance trains & seeing all types of interaction between children & the adults accompanying them, it sounds like your children are too undisciplined to make anything but the shortest trip on a train. Perhaps if you had another adult traveling with you to assist it would be feasible. Bear in mind I'm basing this conclusion on your own account of the trip.
I've seen lots of mothers traveling alone with 3 or 4 children ranging from babes in arms to toddlers whose trips went quite smoothly. That happened because the older ones listened to the moms & didn't create disturbances distressing the littler kids.
Amtrak employees aboard the train have a wide variety of duties, which don't include "babysitting" children or assuming responsibilities that rightfully belong to the accompanying adult(s). I can't imagine how you would have formed the expectation that part of the crew's job was to be focused on assisting you with your unruly children.
Noting that you say your children were "glassy-eyed" when you took them to the lounge car to watch a video & that one of the kids had little sleep in 24 hours, wouldn't it have been better for all concerned to put them down for a nap in your coach? Obviously you were exhausted at this point also & that condition may have distorted the reality of the situation around you.
It isn't always easy for adults to make a trip alone with children. Some can handle it very well, some cannot. Before taking Amtrak (or any other transportation provider) to task, please consider which group you are in.
D.P. Roberts Member # 4535
posted
quote:Originally posted by Room Service: Read the letter little more carefully.
quote:If one of your children is screaming and having a fit, it is your job- and your job only- to get all your children back to your room.
She didn't have a room. She was in coach.
quote:A train has a mixture of people, some of whom will drink- as long as they are not bothering other passengers (and you did not indicate that they were harassing you), I do not see how this should be an issue for you.
A drunk woman was yelling in her daughters face, "SAY I LOVE MOMMY."
I'd call that "bothering other passengers".
1) You're right, coach seat instead of room. But the principle still applies.
2)You're right, that drunk person bothered her child. I could be wrong, but that was only one instance mentioned, among a whole lounge car full of drunk people. The impression I got- and I could be wrong- was that it wasn't just the comment itself, but the very fact that they were drunk, that bothered the original poster.
Again, Amtrak made a lot of mistakes on this trip. One of the main ones was that the children's car was in horrible shape. If the kids had somewhere to play & have fun, everyone would be better off. An early, family oriented seating is also a great idea. They should do this on all long distance trains.
I agree with almost everything the original poster said. My only objections were: A) The staff should not have any extra obligations when it comes to taking care of or entertaining children on a train- they have enough to do as it is! and B) I assumed, based on what I read, that the OP didn't like the atmosphere (and not just the behavior of a few individuals) in the lounge car, that she didn't like drunk people being near her kids. I think the solution to that- as she pointed out- is for Amtrak to fix the kids' car, not to necessarily change anything about how the lounge car is run. A car where alcohol is served is probably not a place designed for children, in the same way that the kids' car is not for adults. Amtrak can have- and should have- places on the train that suit a variety of different purposes that suit different passengers' needs.
Mr. Toy Member # 311
posted
The original post makes many valid points, and the list of suggestions is excellent. They certainly would have made your trip easier. However, I am inclined to agree with others here that taking care of your kids was your responsibility. Coach travel is more like a camping experience than a hotel experience. For the latter a sleeper is recommended. Coach attendants usually are responsible for 2-3 cars, with as many as 70 some passengers in each car. They already have their hands full without having to deal with screaming kids (and the resulting complaints from other passengers). Also, I suspect that Amtrak, like many companies these days, has a "keep your hands off kids" rule for their employees to avoid potential lawsuits.
It sounds like you weren't adequately prepared for being in a confined space with naturally energetic children for a day and a half. You make no mention of carrying your own toys, games, snacks, etc to help keep them amused during the long trip. That might have helped pass the time without relying on Amtrak.
I'm surprised they made no mention of the kiddie car. I usually hear them announce the location 2-3 times during the trip. A faux pas on Amtrak's part.
I'm a little skeptical that the lounge car was uniformly filled with drunks. I've never seen even one drunk on a train, let alone a car full. Conductors tend to be quite intolerant of drunkenness, and the lounge attendant would have had to be asleep at the switch not to notice his customers were getting all boozed up.
TALKrr Member # 683
posted
I am not without at least some sympathy regarding your experience. However, I must agree with some of the other posters who do not sympathize quite as much as you might have hoped.
Try to "visualize" that SAME trip on an airplane or bus.
Do you think the flight attendants would have "accomodated" you any differently ? I think not. How would the other passengers reacted to your children's behavior ?
Could the bus driver have assisted you in any way ? How would the other bus passengers have reacted to you and your children ?
Do you travel any distance in your car alone with the kids ? How would a trip like that compare ?
Some kids are just "fussy" to travel with , it is as simple as that----especially for long distances. These kids simply must have the close supervision of not one but two adults. Perhaps you "over-estimated" how well you kids would handle the travel experience. You did not mention if you have ever traveled much ALONE with your children , particularly for a longer trip. If anything, this trip offers you a great "experience base" to use in consideration of future trips---again, with you as the lone adult.
I have seen many five year olds who were extremely patient considering their age---able to sit quiently for at least some period of time. I realize three year olds are a little different story.
Over-all, I think you just over-estimated how simple the trip would be traveling alone with your two children. "Glitches" happen with every trip especially when young children are involved. You did not mention if you brought anything along to entertain the children on their own. If not, you most certainly should have.
I never traveled any great distance alone with my three young children. My wife was always with me. Together, we we ALWAYS prepared for different situations "beyond our control."
I would consider this a great LEARNING EXPERIENCE , especially for you. In the future, whichever way you travel, I think you will be more prepared----and this is a GOOD thing.
As a "footnote":
My sister traveled by travel between Texas and Pennsylvania at least five times with SEVEN children---in COACH. On her first trip, her OLDEST was 10. She always had a delightful time and never once complained of any "difficulty" with either the kids, other passengers , or the train staff. BUT, you must understand that she literally raised the kids alone in that her husband was a bomber pilot for the Air Force and gone much of the time. There were 4 boys and 3 girls. She ruled "with an iron fist" , if you know what I mean. She EXPECTED the kids to behave and they DID , "or else." These nieces and nephews are all adults now, but they STILL relate stories to me about what "growing-up" with my suster as a Mom was really like---lots of love , but also lots and lots of discipline.
DeeCT Member # 3241
posted
Jenyum,
First let me say that I think some of your suggestions have some merit. Early family seating in the diner is an excellent one. Certainly a working tv/vcr should be a must (and several child oriented movies available).
That said -- I am afraid that your expectations were not realistic and that you and your children were ill-prepared for the train experience.
Let me said as clearly as I can -- Amtrak train attendents are not Nannies !! Responsibility for the care of your children is yours not theirs. Nor should they be expected to be you and your children's personal wait staff. Many of the problems you encountered could have been avoided with a little better preparation on your part.I suspect that your frustration and growing distaste for the train experience was not lost on the children and also added to the problem.
I wish you had posted on this forum before your trip as many of us here have traveled with children and could have given you a "heads up" as to what to expect and "tips/suggestions" on how to make it a more pleasant experience. (I personally have made many trips in the past with my Grandaughter -- all of them in coach by the way. She is now grown and both of us can look back at the fun times we had on those trips.) I have seen many young mothers travel with very young children with varying degrees of success. It has been my experience/impression that those who have had the smoothest trips were those who came "prepared" for the adventure.
jenyum Member # 4533
posted
First of all:
I never expected Amtrak staff to be nannies. I have traveled alone with the children by plane quite a bit, and flight attendants have typically been quite solicitous. This does not mean they participate in childcare, it means they recognize that moving around with the children is difficult and do their best to get us seated and deplaned and supplied with provisions expeditiously. Politeness is also an absolute given. This applies even though we always fly coach
Secondly:
Of course I brought things for my children to do. Many things. Clearly, you all question my basic intelligence. Thanks.
Third:
We needed to travel at this particular time and the train was the affordable way to do it. If Amtrak does not want children on these long haul trips perhaps they should stop marketing to families with half-price children's tickets. If they are going to encourage people to travel with their kids they should make some effort to accommodate their needs. I saw much accommodation happen with the elderly passengers. I even witnessed attendants smiling at them and offering to help. That's awesome, they should do that. They should also recognize that small people have special needs and behave accordingly.
Fourth:
The Coast Starlight has been in the news of late for it's terrible on time record and frustrated passengers. This isn't the nice happy train trip of yesteryear, it's the fourth circle of hell. All of the children were having difficulty, and the crew's one attempt to make their situation better (putting Curious George on in the lounge car at 9 pm) backfired miserably.
Mr. Toy Member # 311
posted
Jenyum, we are not questioning your intelligence, for as I said before, Amtrak did make mistakes and you made some excellent suggestions. But as experienced rail travelers, we see some element of ignorance in your trip planning, and we feel that some, not all but some, of the difficulties you encountered could have been anticipated.
You indicate that your kids have done well on flights, but comparing trains to planes is a common error for first time train travelers. A flight lasting 2-6 hours is a far cry from an all day and all night train trip. Also, on planes the ratio of flight attendants to passengers is higher than with Amtrak coach attendants to passengers, so you can't expect the same level of service. Should Amtrak have more coach attendants? In my opinion, yes, but budget constraints prohibit it at this point. You didn't know that, of course, but it appears you based your planning on some false assumptions. As Talkrr suggested, use this as a learning experience.
Amtrak does a resonably good job given its poor funding and limited resources. Given these constraints a few glitches are, unfortunately, to be expected. Unfriendly service is intolerable, of course, and you are correct in pointing it out to Amtrak management.
I suggest you also write to your elected representatives in Washington DC. Tell them you believe in train travel, but that in its current underfunded state it is not fulfilling its potential.
D.P. Roberts Member # 4535
posted
1) In regards to Amtrak employees not being "Nannies"- I'm glad you agree with that. My impression from your letter was that you expected more from your Service Attendants than what you've received on your air trips. For example, your original posts the following: "I was not able to get her calmed down again and took her kicking and screaming, five year old sister in tow, all the way back through several cars to our seats and then to the kid car. No one offered to help or even seemed to notice while we struggled, the only reaction I ever got out of the crew was annoyance. She screamed for half an hour in the kid car, the only space a child could go to be loud without bothering the (by now almost uniformly drunk) adults, driving all the other children out in the process. She then had an accident. Throughout the process of leaving the lounge car, dealing with her in the kid car, going back upstairs to our car and getting a change of clothes for both of us, and changing, no crew member noticed that there was a problem and offered to help."
This is one of the main sections that confuses me. What, exactly, did you expect the Amtrak staff to do to "help" you in this situation? What it seems like you're asking for is another child care provider- someone to help you carry your children, calm them down, and keep them entertained.
2)I did not mean to question your "basic intelligence" in not bringing toys and games for your children, and I doubt anyone else here did either. However, you never stated anywhere that you had brought these things. In fact, in your description of the kids car, you specifically stated that "the kids literally bounced off the walls and made their own games running from one end of the car to another." I assumed that if you had toys and games, this would be the place to use them. Since they had to "make their own games", it doesn't sound like you had provided any.
4) Amtrak needs to fix its existing kids programs- from your post, that's clear. I also think that your suggestions on how to improve things are good ones. However, please note that they are SUGGESTIONS on your part. Take, for example, the dining car incident. Amtrak seats people together in tables for four, and mixes these groups of people together. Personally, I would love to see tables for two, so that my wife and I can dine by ourselves. However, that is not the case, so I EXPECT to be seated with strangers, and I would EXPECT the service attendants to serve us our main courses, desserts, and bills at the same time. Why did you expect it to be otherwise?
jenyum Member # 4533
posted
Clearly, my first and most glaring mistake was to use the train as a method of travel rather than an expensive hobby.
In the future, I will be sure to leave train travel to seasoned experts able to inerpret the arcane rules and regulations applicable to this most pleasant form of transportation. I shall not make the mistake of expecting anyone employed by Amtrak to behave in a fashion one might expect from service employees in any industry actually capable of making a profit. (or for that matter, any human being who has not clearly given up on the species out of sheer frustration with their miserable service job)
I wish you all sextuplets with ADHD and bid you adeiu.
1702 Member # 4508
posted
Let's see, you post an extremely lengthy diatribe against the Coast Starlight crew & some of your fellow passengers alike. The only positive comment you had was in the last 3 lines, about the lounge car attendant. After going into excruciating detail about your trip, you then expected either no response from anyone here or folks lining up to commiserate with you about how badly you'd been treated.
The line re: "sextuplets with ADHD" reveals your true character.
Yes, stay away from Amtrak with your bratty kids. There are enough clueless parents out there already.
zephyr Member # 1651
posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jenyum: Clearly, my first and most glaring mistake was to use the train as a method of travel rather than an expensive hobby.
You have somewhat captured the essence of the Coast Starlight. But it does serve a social need. Public self-abuse/mutilation is frowned upon by most folks, so this particular train provides a more-or-less acceptable alternative. And economical compared to mental healthcare costs for treating this ailment (Jimmy, stop pokin' your eye with that stick--I can't afford no shrink, but I'll get ya' a coach ticket on the Coast Starlight if ya' stop that there pokin').
In the future, I will be sure to leave train travel to seasoned experts.....
I have some doubts that everyone who responded to your post is a "seasoned expert." The statement made by one respondent that he had "...never seen even one drunk on a train..." strikes me as prima facie evidence that he really doesn't ride LD trains that much. (We're more into policy wonking around here).
And as far as traveling with young children, you're probably one of the few "seasoned experts" in that area on this forum.
I wish you all sextuplets.....
You meanie (but you funny).
Jenyum, I appreciate and sympathize with your comments about the problems you had traveling with young children. We tend to get a bit Pollyannish around here. As does Amtrak's marketing department when it comes to Amtrak's "kid friendliness." I just returned from a trip that included 4 LD trains, and I observed similar situations. To various degrees, on each train. Similar problems. Especially on the Coast Starlight.
(And, oh yeh, I actually saw some drunks on my recent rail travels--jeez, I must be downright lucky, according to the "seasoned experts").
train lady Member # 3920
posted
Jenyum, I can cetainly sympathize with you. You must have been not only frustratd but exhausted when you arrived, I do not see any justification for your treatment in the diner or for the condition of the kids room. The fact that others were concerned about the door being open shows it wasn't only you who was concerned. As to the person who has never seen a drunk on the train must in my opinion,either never been in the lounge car or has his head in the sand. Anyone who knows anything about small children would know that giving them toys of their own will never work once a kid is upset. That is why toys in the kids room, if in good condition can do the trick. It simply distracts the child so they stop screaming. It alwys amazes me how people who know nothing or little about a subject become instant experts. I am a mother, gramdmother and retired teacherI have taken my 3 across the country by car, bus and train so I offer you a couple of suggestions if you decide to try again. (If you can afford it get a family bedroom.There is enough space so the kids can move around , strtch out on the couches, or just run , walk off some energy without disturbing others. Also they can sleep better and won't be so fussy later. (2) I found it very helpfu to practice our trip. Most kids love let's pretend. So we would set up chairs in the living room look out the window, take turns sitting there, walk down the aisle to the diner. There I was the waiter and we ordered etc. I am sure you get the idea. When they were older we mapped out the route , talked about each state and city , the crops etc. I hope this helps a little. Oh yes, I can't help but wonder how many of the people who were quick to tell you how wrong you were have ever spent any time traveling or just being with young children.
Mr. Toy Member # 311
posted
quote:Originally posted by zephyr: The statement made by one respondent that he had "...never seen even one drunk on a train..." strikes me as prima facie evidence that he really doesn't ride LD trains that much.
quote:Originally posted by train lady: As to the person who has never seen a drunk on the train must in my opinion,either never been in the lounge car or has his head in the sand.
That person was me. I only average one trip a year, but I can honestly say I've never encountered a drunk on a train, lounge car or elsewhere. What I have seen in lounge cars are parents with children of all ages, children running around on their own, teenagers running up and down the stairs annoying the cafe attendant, people reading, people watching the movies, people watching the passing scenery, people with portable stereo headphones, an older couple playing bluegrass on guitar and mandolin, people eating snacks, railfans photographing passing UP freights, college age kids hanging out and socializing, senior citizens just looking for someone to chat with, a musician writing music with his guitar, people playing card games, people sleeping,...
But never have I seen any drunks among them.
That doesn't mean nobody ever gets drunk on a train, I just don't think it likely, gven the diverse types of people I've seen in lounge cars at any given moment, young and old and in between, that every single person in the car would be intoxicated as Ms. Jeny declared.
You can't please everyone. Not even the finest five star hotels can please everyone. I know because I work in a high-end hotel. Some situations are just not suited to some people. I'm sorry Jeny didn't have the experience she was hoping for, and she did make some good points. But I still think she went into it with inflated expectations, then got upset with us because we didn't take her side on every single issue she brought up. We did, in fact, agree with her on most issues, but she seemed to take offense at the idea that she might have done a few things differently for a better result.
If you're still here, Jeny, please be assured that we want everyone to have enjoyable train trips, and we are eager to help people make them work. We know Amtrak has plenty of faults, and we can help you find your way through or around them, if you let us. But if you dismiss our suggestions out of hand, we can't do much.
train lady Member # 3920
posted
Mr Toy, You are fortunate that you have never seen a drunk on the train. In many cases it isn't a pretty sight. I am older than you and have ridden the trains longer than you so my chances of running into this situation is greater than yours. On time on the Capital we went down to the lounge to find it "taken over" by a large group of young people. They had a guitar and were singing VERY loudly. Believe me they were 4 sheets (or more) to the wind. We were the only "non group members" in the place. Since they were happy drunks we stayed a while and listened to the singing and finally went back to the quiet of our room. I have seen the conductor remove people from the train. I have gone into the lounge early in the morning to find it not only smelled like a brewery but found several people surrounded by empty beer cans and full ash trays passed out at a table. I have been approached by obvious drunks for conversation. Your travels sem to be mostly in California if I read you right. I am speaking about trips all over the country, Perhaps that makes a difference. I can understand how some of these posts,innocent as they were, simply infuriated Jenyum more. when one is already very upset telling them what they could have or should have done simply fuels the fire more. It seems to me what she needed was understanding until she could calm down and begin to see things a little differently. Any of us who have ever been that angry should know what I am trying to say.I also know what you were trying to do but trust me this was not the time for it.
zephyr Member # 1651
posted
Mr. Toy, I'm not doubting your veracity when you say you've never, ever seen a drunk on the train. At first I thought you were joking, but I'll erase the laugh-track and take it at face value. The key point I was trying to make was many respondents to jenyums topic really aren't the "seasoned experts" she assumed. And very few have any experience traveling on Amtrak with very young children. But apparently that doesn't get in the way of some on being an expert on parenting skills. Let alone experts on traveling with young children.
My take on this thread is a mother stated some problems she had traveling on a chronically late train with young kids. Offered some solutions that would solve or alleviate these problems. And then was attacked by some respondents ("seasoned experts").
But let's get back to drunks. On a recent Coast Starlight trip, I was reminded by an overly-self-medicated female on the Coast Starlight that it used to be fondly called "the party train." Her almost exact slurrings were: "Man, this used to be called the party train. And I mean Parr-teee. Yeh, it was great. Now, it's borr-ing." I wish I could have stuck around to hear more details, but I had to get back to my room to locate some tin foil to chew.
I remember those "party train" days. On one memorable pre-Superliner trip, I recall the upstairs dome completely taken over by a beer-swilling, dope smoking group. The car attendent did make an appearance, but just suggested everyone "be cool with the grass." (Oh, yeh, I don't smell nothun'). My buddy and I started to swill a beer with them, but soon the wailings of the totally-talent-free guitar player drove us back to calmer quarters.
Three years ago I had another experience with the lounge being taken over by the inebriated. It was #14 again. The Coast Starlight was doing what it does best (way behind schedule). At Eugene, a gaggle of football fans staggered onto the train. Seems when they found out they had a long wait for 14's arrival, they decided the station's waiting room didn't have the ambiance as did a nearby micro-brewery. But the train crew handled the situation well and diplomatically. The conductor politely but firmly laid out some ground rules, and the lounge mysteriously seemed to run out of alcoholic beverages.
Those par-teee train days are long, long gone. Thankfully. And I've noted a significant decrease in problems with intoxicated passengers over the years. It still happens (notelvis, didn't we determine we were on the same #14 last year where a passenger was escorted off the train in either Salem or Albany?). But the problem with drunk and/or obnoxious passengers has greatly improved based on my personal experiences.
I'm not sure why. It could be Amtrak has taken a more "zero tolerance" policy on the matter. Maybe the higher fares has affected the type of clientele. Price increases on alcoholic beverages may be curbing some purchases. Maybe it's just a societal shift. Maybe it's a combination of things, or something I haven't thought of. But things seem to have quieted down in the Lounge.
train lady Member # 3920
posted
Do you think the fact that there is a smoking ban has anything to do with less drunks? Somehow smoking and drinking seem to go together. I know that once I stopped smoking my coffee consumption dropped to one mug full. Could the same thing apply to alcohol?
zephyr Member # 1651
posted
I guess the smoking ban may be a factor. It's as good as any of my theories.
I just returned from trips that included rides on the Zephyr, CS, Chief, San Joaquin, and EB. On each train except for the SJ, I observed passengers who I considered intoxicated. Not obnoxious, but on the way to getting there. And twice I observed a "my way or the highway" chat between conductor and errant passengers.
Encountering an obnoxious loud-mouthed jerk on a train used to be commonplace. Now it seems to be becoming less common. At least that's been my experience, but obviously everyone's mileage varies.
Mr. Toy Member # 311
posted
quote:Originally posted by train lady: I can understand how some of these posts,innocent as they were, simply infuriated Jenyum more. when one is already very upset telling them what they could have or should have done simply fuels the fire more. It seems to me what she needed was understanding until she could calm down and begin to see things a little differently. Any of us who have ever been that angry should know what I am trying to say.I also know what you were trying to do but trust me this was not the time for it.
I think you're right. She obviously didn't have a good time, and needed to vent. Perhaps it would have been better to bite my tongue until we all got better acquainted.
Mr. Toy Member # 311
posted
quote:Originally posted by zephyr: I remember those "party train" days. On one memorable pre-Superliner trip, I recall the upstairs dome completely taken over by a beer-swilling, dope smoking group. The car attendent did make an appearance, but just suggested everyone "be cool with the grass." (Oh, yeh, I don't smell nothun'). My buddy and I started to swill a beer with them, but soon the wailings of the totally-talent-free guitar player drove us back to calmer quarters.
I actually rode the Starlight quite regularly in those days, as a student shuttling between home in Oregon and a boarding school north of San Francisco. Most trips were between 1974 and 1978. It was very different in those days. The lounge attendants ranged from indifferent to downright hostile. Lounges were filled with smoke, and while I don't recall any blatant drunks, there was a lot more drinking then than I have observed in recent years.
quote:Three years ago I had another experience with the lounge being taken over by the inebriated. .... At Eugene, a gaggle of football fans staggered onto the train. Seems when they found out they had a long wait for 14's arrival, they decided the station's waiting room didn't have the ambiance as did a nearby micro-brewery. But the train crew handled the situation well and diplomatically. The conductor politely but firmly laid out some ground rules, and the lounge mysteriously seemed to run out of alcoholic beverages....
....Those par-teee train days are long, long gone. Thankfully. And I've noted a significant decrease in problems with intoxicated passengers over the years. It still happens .... But the problem with drunk and/or obnoxious passengers has greatly improved based on my personal experiences.
Doesn't that corroborate my point?
wayne72145 Member # 4503
posted
I've been traveling on Amtrak for over 3 years now , at least 20,000 miles and I've only had to deal with 2 drunks and I just left the car. That's one thing I LOVE about traveling Amtrak, you can escape. Last month I was trapped in an airplane that sat on the runway at Dullas International for 3 (three) hours before take off with a screaming child that I couldnt escape from. I have one more trip by air booked and paid for, that will be the last one, thats the promice I made to myself at Dullas in July.
zephyr Member # 1651
posted
I'm not sure, Mr. Toy, how the quoted passage corroborates your "point." As a matter of fact, I didn't take your statement of "I've never seen even one drunk on a train" as a "point" at all, but simply your observation. Totally different from my experiences and jenyum's and apparently other's, but I'll accept it as truthful due to lack of evidence to the contrary. But if you are suggesting we should infer from your statement there's never any drunks on trains (if that's your "point"), that simply doesn't jive with reality. Frankly, it's silly. It's kinda like saying "I take the Starlight once each year and have never been late" as making the "point" the Starlight is never late. It doesn't. It may say something about your luck, but I'd say that's about the only "point" it makes .
The reality is there will always be problems with drunk, unruly, and/or obnoxious passengers. It's just part of the territory. But I have seen it becoming less of a problem of late. And Amtrak certainly deserves some of the credit for this improvement. Now, when you are warned to cool it or it's adios, they seem to mean it. During the past few years, I've witnessed a number of passengers invited to step off the train (some never even make it to the train, because they've been busted at the depot). Never in the "par--tee train" days (I'm sure it happened, but I never personally saw it). But I've certainly seen it the past few years (the most recent event mentioned a few posts north).
On my recent trip, I mentioned I twice observed conductors bringing up the possiblility of "an unexpected itinerary change" during discussions with problem passengers. No negotiating. No alternatives. No deals. It was "cool it" or you're out-a-here, and it seemed to defuse the situation then and there. I think the word's out they mean it, and it seems to be a factor in helping to mitigate this problem.
TwinStarRocket Member # 2142
posted
I once saw a drunk on the Southwest Chief in Holbrook , AZ. That is only worth noting because I was not on the train, but driving through town wondering why the SWC was stopped in Holbrook letting off a passenger. (Amtrak does not stop at Holbrook.)
As the train left, the drunk was pleading with the cops to put him in jail. February nights get awful cold in Holbrook and this guy's clothes were on the way to LAX. Works much faster than the justice system. Could be the reason you see fewer drunks on a train.
royaltrain Member # 622
posted
I think the issue of the train drunks has much to do with your class. Here in Canada Via Rail will not tolerate drunks or excessive drinking. When riding on The Canadian recently I observed a waiter in the dining car cutting off a coach passenger that he thought had too many beers, although this person was neither loud nor abusive. Had he been riding first-class I doubt he would have been cut off (assuming he was quiet) as he could simply go back to his bedroom to sleep it off. In the remote parts of Canada I have seen the mounties called to remove the occasional passenger (always in coach). In Via 1 where the first-class passenger is provided substantial liquor at no charge, my experience has been that most everyone is rather quiet (sleeping it off?) and not minding in the least that the train may be running late.
D.P. Roberts Member # 4535
posted
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Toy:
quote:Originally posted by train lady: I can understand how some of these posts,innocent as they were, simply infuriated Jenyum more. when one is already very upset telling them what they could have or should have done simply fuels the fire more. It seems to me what she needed was understanding until she could calm down and begin to see things a little differently. Any of us who have ever been that angry should know what I am trying to say.I also know what you were trying to do but trust me this was not the time for it.
I think you're right. She obviously didn't have a good time, and needed to vent. Perhaps it would have been better to bite my tongue until we all got better acquainted.
Well, just like the OP said, I have to vent and get this off my chest. It really bothers me when people post THEIR story of a bad customer service situation, when the people on the other side- in this case, the Amtrak employees on this particular train- do not get to be heard. Any story like this is an encounter between two (or more) real human beings, and it bothers me when people chime in on the side of the customer, when they haven't heard both sides of the argument.
Okay, here's the part where I sound like a crazy communist, and get ignored, or brushed off or whatever. What we in America call "customer service" is not customer service. It is people in a position of power- the customers, who have MONEY- abusing the people who work for the companies that need the money.
Here's what I'm talking about. Say, for example, you get a rude waiter. Not necessarily poor service- just maybe snippy, or curt. Many people would complain about that waiter. You call the manager over, or write letters, and try to get that person fired.
But what happens when a waiter gets a rude, snippy customer? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Does the waiter get to complain to the rude customer's mother? Of course not. Refuse them service? No way! Customers have to be HORRIBLE before they get kicked out.
It's all because of money. Busineses NEED their customers, but the reverse is not true. So, businesses allow their employees to be treated in almost any way that suits the customer- regardless of how it affects the employees. And, it's easy for the cusotmer to go along with this- after all, the customer is spending his or her "hard earned money".
If you don't believe this, listen to yourself over the next few days as you talk to customer service people- waiters, car attendants, cashiers, or whatever. Now, imagine that the customer service person is the son or daughter of someone you know- a friend, a neighbor, or a relative. Would you still treat that person the way you did? Would your tone, your vocabulary, and your demeanor be the same? Probably not. You'd probably say to yourself "wow, that customer service person is probably going to go home and tell my friend/neighbor/relative that I was really rude to them."
Here's something else to think about it: when a customer service person does something that really bothers you, you don't hesitate address it. However, if a stranger does something that really bothers you (like cutting in front of you in line, stealing "your" parking space, or whatever), you don't react to it- after all, that person may be crazy, or they may have a gun, or whatever.
In other words, you don't react to strangers, because they have the power to respond. Customer service people have no power to respond to you, so you can treat them however you want. And, if you're less than friendly, that's okay, because you've had a really hard day- and besides, you're spending your hard earned money, and "the customer is always right."
You can probably tell that I feel pretty strongly about this. It's just that when I hear one side of a customer service story, I can't help but wonder what the other side of the story is. So, to the original poster (and others), I apologize if I offended you. I did not intend to.
Mr. Toy Member # 311
posted
quote:Originally posted by zephyr: I'm not sure, Mr. Toy, how the quoted passage corroborates your "point." .... But if you are suggesting we should infer from your statement there's never any drunks on trains (if that's your "point"), that simply doesn't jive with reality.
I never said nobody ever gets drunk on trains. Please re-read my earlier post. I noted that conductors tend to be pretty intolerant of drunks. That was the point you corroberated, and why I believe Jeny was exaggerating when she said the lounge car was "uniformly" full of drunks.
Mr. Toy Member # 311
posted
quote:Originally posted by D.P. Roberts: You can probably tell that I feel pretty strongly about this. It's just that when I hear one side of a customer service story, I can't help but wonder what the other side of the story is. So, to the original poster (and others), I apologize if I offended you. I did not intend to.
And I do the same. I think its a healthy way to look at things. But on reflection, I realized that in this situation it was probably not the best thing to jump in say her point of view had some flaws. When someone is obviously upset, any hint of criticism will probably not be welcomed. In such situations is often better to wait a bit until things cool off, and let the perspective of time bring things into clearer focus.
I'm not saying we did anything "wrong" per se. Technically speaking, we were probably "right" in our observations, but our timing was bad.
I can empathize with Ms. Jeny. Several months ago I went to an internet message board seeking information on ****** cancer treatment procedures, which my wife was going through (she's gonna be fine, BTW). I posted an inquiry about some concerns I had regarding the healing process from surgery, thinking it was a perfectly legitimate question. It turned out that among ****** cancer survivors, the question was considered politically incorrect for men to ask, and I was bashed by dozens of women who accused me of being an insensitive clod who wasn't supporting my wife properly. I never did get an answer to my question. I'm thinking Jeny must be feeling something like I felt.
Mr. Toy Member # 311
posted
Ooh, looky! I found another legitimate word the profanity filter doesn't like. ***-gone it!
George Harris Member # 2077
posted
My sympathies for the reactions you got, Mr. Toy. If my wife was dealing with cancer of whatever part of the anatomy the profanity filter did not like, I would be out there asking questions, also. I would have thought trying to gain information would be part of supporting her. Funny, when a friend of ours was diagnosed with prostate cancer, my wife did not see anything wrong with doing research on the subject and I don't think she got any negative reactions, either.
Mike Smith Member # 447
posted
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Toy: I never said nobody ever gets drunk on trains. Please re-read my earlier post. I noted that conductors tend to be pretty intolerant of drunks. That was the point you corroberated, and why I believe Jeny was exaggerating when she said the lounge car was "uniformly" full of drunks.
One of the more amusing incidents, regarding drunks, happened on my way back from LAX several years ago.
A California LA type, dressed in a white "summer suit", sporting a long blonde handlebar mustache, was playing 2 women and was getting a bit drunk on his way to New Orleans.
In El Paso, the conductor warned him to tone it down. The guy said he wasn't toned-up, yet. In Alpine, TX he was handed over to the Alpine cops.
If you have ever been to Alpine, you'd know a drunk from CA would not enjoy it. Watching him, in his white suit, getting hancuffed and removed from the train struck me as funny, especially as the Conductor was just shaking his head at the ignorance of the dude. {It was a self-inflicted eviction from the train. He had been warned.}
train lady Member # 3920
posted
I am so happy,Mr. Toy,to hear that your wife has positive results. I am sure it's a tremendous relief to all your family, That sounds like a useless message board.
zephyr Member # 1651
posted
Mr. Toy, you may be correct that Jenyum was exaggerating when she stated the lounge was uniformly (actually, she stated "almost uniformly") full of drunks. But so what? I can see someone in her position encountering just a handfull of tipsy passengers bothering her and her children making the lounge seem "full of drunks." Drunks, especially in confined spaces, have a way of doing that.
But if you would please re-read my initial post, I was suggesting there was some other "exaggerating" going on. I was responding to your statement "But as experienced rail travelers, we see some element of ignorance in your trip planning..." When I first read that, it struck me as somewhat pompous and arrogant. And when I saw your statement "I've never seen even one drunk on a train," it raised the question: is this guy really an "experienced" rail traveler?
Your subsequent post (the "I only average one trip per year..." bit), and a visit to your website, indicate you have been on a few more LD train trips than I originally thought. But there seems to be a pattern to your travels that possibly explains why your experiences (with drunks on trains) deviates so much from mine. Your LD trips, with one exception, all seem to be on the same train (Starlight), same segment of the route (Salinas/Salem), and all of the most recent trips in the same class of accomodations (sleeper). And this particular train (the Coast Starlight) is unique with the Parlour car, which can uniquely isolate the sleeping car passenger from the "masses."
I've stated I don't doubt the truthfulness of your lack of drunk sightings. But I think it's more indicative of the breadth and nature of your rail travels then anything else. And the fact you haven't stumbled across some drunks in your travels certainly does not cause me to question whether Jenyum did.
Also in my initial post, I expressed my doubts that many responders were "experienced rail travelers" when it comes to traveling with very young children. Jenyum was informing us of her experiences from this perspective, and we just did not treat her very well. Many seem to recognize that now, so I suggest it's time to move on.
On a more personal note, Mr. Toy, I am very glad to hear your wife is doing fine. All this rail yakking seems so insignificant compared to what you two must have gone through. I sincerely wish her (and you) the very best.
Geoff M Member # 153
posted
In Mr Toy's defence, there is a certain amount of "eye of the beholder" going on, ie what you percieve as drunk. There are also several types of drunkard. Mr. Toy may not have noticed or remembered them if they didn't bother him. You only have long term memories of the good or the bad, not the indifferent in between. So while one may not be able to *recall* an event doesn't mean it didn't happen. This is normal human memory, not specifically Mr Toy's.
As for several types of drunks, you have your "quietly getting tipsy in the corner", your "loud but friendly", and your "loud and offensive" - the latter being Jeny's.
I, for one, can't remember a lounge car "almost uniformly" full of any type of drunk. Individuals, or small groups quite merry, perhaps, but not in a way that was offensive to me, nor in large numbers. That's not to say it doesn't happen, it just means I personally haven't seen any, despite doing 18 LD trains over 10 years, on many different routes.
Geoff M.
D.P. Roberts Member # 4535
posted
Okay, I think we've all had our say (I know I have). I think we all understand what everyone else is saying. Considering that the OP appears to be long gone, can we stick a fork in this one? I think it's done.
posted 