Anyone knows the true age of the Sunset limited passenger train? I read it may have started in 1874.
Interesting 'The Sunset Limited was rerouted to bypass Phoenix, Arizona, on June 2, 1996, due to the Union Pacific Railroad's desire to abandon track between Arlington, Arizona and "Roll" (east of Yuma, Arizona and Wellton, Arizona). Southern Pacific opened the "West Line" between Yuma and Phoenix in 1926; since 1996, the line has not been abandoned. As of early 2006, recent construction activities suggest Union Pacific may reopen the line."
Posted by SunsetLtd (Member # 3985) on :
One thing's for sure its well over 100! It has survived for that long, so it should live another hundred years.
Posted by Geoff M (Member # 153) on :
I've heard conflicting stories about the Phoenix by-pass. One said that UP were actively abandoning the line (meaning actively pulling up the trackbed rather than just letting it rot), and another report which said that they would re-open it and have directional running - it would act as a cheap second main track, albeit some distance apart from the current main.
Being 5,200 miles away means I can't see for myself right now.
Geoff M.
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
If it did get started in 1874, this could be used in advertising and a weapon to keep it out of the retirement home.
Posted by stlboomer (Member # 2028) on :
The Sunset Limited was inaugurated by the Southern Pacific on November 1, 1894. It offered weekly service between New Orleans and San Francisco.
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
quote:Originally posted by stlboomer: The Sunset Limited was inaugurated by the Southern Pacific on November 1, 1894. It offered weekly service between New Orleans and San Francisco.
Wow, that is still impressive. 112 years old. Noway Amtrak could kill it. So it is the oldest continuing running pssenger train in the usa? world?
Posted by Boyce (Member # 2719) on :
When was service East of NO started? Did it originally go to Fla.?
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
Service east of New Orleans to Florida began under Amtrak. In pre Amtrak days, New Orleans to Jacksonville was the nice and nicely scheduled overnight joint L&N - SAL Gulf Wind with about 5:00pm departure / 9:00 am arrival times at New Orleans. There was also a Flomaton to Jacksonville coaches only up until the late 60's that functioned as a Pensacola to Jacksonville day train.
The Phoenix Line: This track will take megabucks to get into condition for high volume service at normal mainline freight and passenger speeds. The west line was built back when Southern Pacific considered being able to operate through passenger trains between Los Angeles and Phoenix an important objective. Other than ordinary maintenance almost nothing has changed from that time. It is mostly or all jointed rail with the 1920's block signaling still in place but not really functional west of Phoenix. According to the early 2003 UP employee timetable, all track west of Phoenix is 25 mph or less. This line is also quite a few miles longer than the main line through Maricopa. Should UP wish to make this a second main to go with the Maricopa line, it would require close to a complete rebuild from the bottom of ballast up and a new signal system. As to the bridges, I have no idea.
George
Posted by Geoff M (Member # 153) on :
quote:Originally posted by gp35: So it is the oldest continuing running pssenger train in the usa? world?
Quite how you measure that could be difficult. Do you count a route that has always had passenger trains (including numerous daily) as the longest continuously running passenger route (trains)? In which case you could count the Liverpool and Manchester (UK) which dates from somewhere around 1830 and still has passenger trains to this day, plus the Crab & Winkle in Kent (UK) from the same year. Parts of the NE Corridor (USA) also date way back (1834 is the earliest date I can find) and still run passenger trains.
Or do you mean a "named" passenger train? Or long distance? Or do you count metros/trams?
Geoff M.
Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :
Boyce - the Sunset Ltd began running through to Jacksonville from New Orleans in 1993, under AMTRAK. The infamous "barge accident" near Mobile took place shortly after the Sunset began as a transcontinental route.
Posted by Geoff M (Member # 153) on :
Speaking of the Mobile accident, wasn't one of the locos involved nearly brand new? Literally only a couple of days old in revenue service?
Geoff M.
Posted by Boyce (Member # 2719) on :
Thanks.
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
Name only...noway it could be route.
Posted by Railroad Bob (Member # 3508) on :
I think the Sunset Limited is the oldest original passenger train name in the Amtrak system; a name that has not "morphed." For example, the Super Chief/El Capitan became the Southwest Limited under early Amtrak, then changed to Southwest Chief. And, since Geoff M's beautiful little green island country invented railroads, nobody can beat his stated origin date of 1830. These were the wooden-strap rail days, right Geoff?
Yes, the Sunset lost an almost-new set of Genesis locos in the barge accident. A mechanical foreman at the time from Redondo Jct. told me they had amassed hardly any operating hours before they went nose-down into the bayou. There were five fatalities if I recall, three being crew...Mr. Harris might be able to add some info about this.
Posted by Geoff M (Member # 153) on :
Well, certainly the very early days involved iron sections of rail, "L" shaped I believe, and flangeless wheels. Those date back even before 1830 but I don't think any of those routes exist any more.
I don't know about beating the named trains record though. Very few of our trains are named. Even names like the Cornish Riviera and the Flying Scotsman only date back a hundred years or so.
Geoff M.
Posted by Tanner929 (Member # 3720) on :
I Bet it had a better on time record in 1874 then it has today. Well i suppose the ocassional train robbery or Indian raid held it up now and then. MMmmm the Sunset losses (steals) much more money then Butch and Sundance ever got.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
Here is the synopsis of the accident events found on the NTSB web site. A lot of the more recent reports are available in full, but this one is not. Most of the "synopsis" is made up of multiple recommendations by the NTSB rather than informationon the accident itself. This remains Amtrak's worst train accident in terms of loss of life.
Report adopted: September 19, 1994 DERAILMENT OF AMTRAK TRAIN NO. 2 ON THE CSXT BIG BAYOU CANOT BRIDGE NEAR MOBILE, ALABAMA SEPTEMBER 22, 1993 NTSB Number: RAR-94/01 NTIS Number: PB94-916301
On September 22, 1993, about 2:45 a.m., barges that were being pushed by the towboat MAUVILLA in dense fog struck and displaced the Big Bayou Canot railroad bridge near Mobile, Alabama. About 2:53 a.m., National Railroad Passenger Corporation (Amtrak) train 2, the Sunset Limited, en route from Los Angeles, California to Miami, Florida, with 220 persons on board, struck the displaced bridge and derailed. The three locomotive units, the baggage and dormitory cars, and two of the six passenger cars fell into the water. The fuel tanks on the locomotive units ruptured, and the locomotive units and the baggage and dormitory cars caught fire.
Forty-two passengers and 5 crewmembers were killed; 103 passengers were injured. The towboat's four crewmembers were not injured.
The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable causes of Amtrak train 2's derailment were the displacement of the Big Bayou Canot railroad bridge when it was struck by the MAUVILLA and tow as a result of the MAUVILLA's pilot becoming lost and disoriented in the dense fog because of (1) the pilot's lack of radar navigation competency; (2) Warrior & Gulf Navigation Company's failure to ensure that its pilot was competent to use radar to navigate his tow during periods of reduced visibility; and (3) the U.S. Coast Guard's failure to establish higher standards for inland towing vessel operator licensing.
******
The report is actually more polite to the towboat pilot than it ought to be. He did not know how to read his radar and was so lost that he did not know that he was going up a bayou that was regarded as non-navigable, and did not know that he had hit a bridge until well after the fireball from the train derailment. He did lose or give up his towboat pilot's license.
http://dotlibrary.specialcollection.net has ICC and NTSB rail accident reports 1911 through 1994, but in the recent years many seem to be missing, including this one.
Aside from everything else, this "slow long distance train that nobody rides" had over 200 passengers on it. Included in the fatalities were a couple of friends of one of my sister-in-law's that were going to be getting off in their home town of Pensacola.
By the way, considering that the original did not go through Phoenix, either because the line through Phoenix did not exist then, the route may well be the original, except such obvious changes as before 1935 the train was ferried across the Mississippi River at New Orleans because there was no bridge. In fact, if the train began operation in 1874, at that time the southernmost bridge across the Mississippi River was at St. Louis.
George
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
Maybe the station was on the west side of the river.
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
The origin of the Sunset name comes from the Galveston, Harrisburg and San Antonio Railway, which was known as the Sunset Route as early as 1874.
Posted by Pojon2 (Member # 4048) on :
What-ever-the-hell-it-is, when is Amtrak going to re-install the New Orleans to Orlando run so that I can use it?? The Florida Rail Pass takes on new meaning if I can use it to go back-and-forth from Palatka to Pensacola. When?
Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :
Pojon - only the Shadow knows......... Ooooooooh!! (thought I'd throw in some "Halloween humor" a month early!!)
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
quote:Originally posted by gp35: Maybe the station was on the west side of the river.
From Mike Palmieri's excellent web site on rail information in Louisiana:
The railroad under discussion below is the current Sunset Route, which before takeover by Southern Pacific in 1885 was Morgan's Louisiana and Texas Railroad.
"Up until 1895, passengers crossed the river from New Orleans by boat and boarded their trains at Algiers. In 1895, the SP opened a passenger station at the east bank ferry landing and began ferry passenger trains across the river. At the same time, it rebuilt the inclines with two tracks. In late 1902, SP passenger trains began using the Illinois Central’s Union Station on South Rampart Street. This move was the result of Edward Harriman’s control of both railroads. As a result of this change, SP passenger trains began crossing the river at the Harahan-Avondale ferry crossing. The SP discontinued both of its ferry operations at New Orleans in December 1935, when the Huey P. Long Bridge opened."
So, pre bridge, the train originated in New Orleans and was ferried across the river.
George
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
quote:Originally posted by George Harris:
quote:Originally posted by gp35: Maybe the station was on the west side of the river.
From Mike Palmieri's excellent web site on rail information in Louisiana:
The railroad under discussion below is the current Sunset Route, which before takeover by Southern Pacific in 1885 was Morgan's Louisiana and Texas Railroad.
"Up until 1895, passengers crossed the river from New Orleans by boat and boarded their trains at Algiers. In 1895, the SP opened a passenger station at the east bank ferry landing and began ferry passenger trains across the river. At the same time, it rebuilt the inclines with two tracks. In late 1902, SP passenger trains began using the Illinois Central’s Union Station on South Rampart Street. This move was the result of Edward Harriman’s control of both railroads. As a result of this change, SP passenger trains began crossing the river at the Harahan-Avondale ferry crossing. The SP discontinued both of its ferry operations at New Orleans in December 1935, when the Huey P. Long Bridge opened."
So, pre bridge, the train originated in New Orleans and was ferried across the river.
George
I would love to see pictures of that. I would do anything for Gulf & Interstate railroad pictures.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
I tried to go to Mike Palmieri's Louisiana Rail site and it appears to no longer exist. Very much too bad. He had a lot of excellent information on bridges, ferries, and rail doings in Louisiana. Fortunately, I did copy a lot so I could reference it without going back online every time. Does anyone know whether it has a new name or is simply dead?
George
Posted by Boyce (Member # 2719) on :
Do you mean the actual train was ferried or the passengers?
Posted by 1702 (Member # 4508) on :
quote:Originally posted by Boyce: Do you mean the actual train was ferried or the passengers?
The train.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tanner929: I Bet it had a better on time record in 1874 then it has today. Well i suppose the ocassional train robbery or Indian raid held it up now and then. MMmmm the Sunset losses (steals) much more money then Butch and Sundance ever got.
Hey, you just described my recent trip to Tweetsie Railroad. The train was both held up by bandits and attacked by indians on every run!
Posted by 1702 (Member # 4508) on :
quote:Originally posted by George Harris: I tried to go to Mike Palmieri's Louisiana Rail site and it appears to no longer exist. Very much too bad. He had a lot of excellent information on bridges, ferries, and rail doings in Louisiana. Fortunately, I did copy a lot so I could reference it without going back online every time. Does anyone know whether it has a new name or is simply dead?
George
Mike's house was flooded during Katrina so he's probably still in recovery mode. I did find a picture of an old postcard of the SP ferry "Mastodon" at http://nutrias.org/exhibits/algiers/algiers3.htm Posted by Boyce (Member # 2719) on :
Very interesting, thanks 1702.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
Thanks for the info, 1702. Where did Mike live? Generally speaking that is, like New Orleans, Bay St. Louis, etc.
Posted by 1702 (Member # 4508) on :
quote:Originally posted by George Harris: Thanks for the info, 1702. Where did Mike live? Generally speaking that is, like New Orleans, Bay St. Louis, etc.
Mike lives in New Orleans. He is retiring soon & will be moving to Fort Worth.
His website should be back up shortly (with some changes I think) & I'll post the link when it's active again.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
It has survived for that long, so it should live another hundred years.