Because some friends are going to be there in March, I am considering adding Kansas City (another place I've always wanted to go) and NOT adding New Orleans/San Antonio/Austin/Little Rock (because there is simply too much going on in the first 3, S by SW Festival etc etc, hotels are so expensive) to the beginning of my Springifield IL /Indianapolis/Cardinal trip. It would mean postponing the City of New Orleans and SL out of NO for another day, BUT I'd get to ride the Ann Rutledge (as well as the Cardinal) for the first time, taking the former to Springfield (and then after seeing the sights, going on to Indianapolis with train and bus as planned, then into Chicago to catch the eastbound Cardinal back from there). (I'd also be taking the SW Chief again, but only Chi to KC westbound.)
So, is the Ann Rutledge route worth taking? Is it scenic? Does one see much of the Missouri River? Any special side of the train to sit on? Any other advice? Is it usually reasonably on time (like, not more than 2-3 hours late? getting in to Springfield? Also, any tourist advice on Kansas City itself, including getting around without a car?
Thanks a bunch!
Posted by PullmanCo (Member # 1138) on :
The Ann Rutledge and the Missouri Mule are both Horizon equipped trains, usually with an Amfleet cafe.
Depending on your price point, there are excellent hotels right at Union Station ... Hyatt Regency Kansas City and the Westin Crown Center. I've stayed over the years at the Westin, the last time was on our wedding night ... which was also the night President Reagan stayed there for the 1984 Reagan-Mondale debates.
There are also good restaurants close by.
Liberty Memorial, THE ONLY memorial and museum in the US dedicated to the First World War, is directly across Pershing Road from Union Station. Hallmarks visitor center is part of Crown Center. Nightlife is coming back in the Country Club Plaza (taxi ride away) and up in the City Market (again, taxi ride away).
As far as the mules go, their routing follows the Missouri Pacific out of Kansas City. You will not pick up the river going eastbound until Jefferson City, our capital. Thereafter, you follow the river to east of Washington, MO, where you cut away to follow I-44 and the southern approaches to Saint Louis.
Posted by train lady (Member # 3920) on :
Pullman, isn't it a short distnce to Independence and the Truman Library? We were there 6 years ago as part of a 6000 mile driving trip. Much to our dismay the library was closed for repairs, a fact that AAA didn't know about. We had to be content with the residence and drug store. Now we are thinking about going back but this time by train.How long a trip is it from K C by bus. Would it make sense to find a bus tour going there? thanks
Posted by zephyr (Member # 1651) on :
Last month my wife and I hopped off a train (no, not a freight, due to a spousal preference for Amtrak) in Kansas City. We stayed at the Westin (again, due to a spousal problem with sleeping under the stars in urban areas). The Westin is a fancy-smancy place with appropriate grab-your-wallet daily rates (no spousal problem there). But we were able to find a deal and get a room at $100/night (plus taxes and other tourist rip-off fees). Check out their "hotel offers" section at the property's website (or offers for Starwood Hotels (SPG) awards members, if you are one). Also note SPG is a Guest Rewards partner (an AGR point enhancement possibility). You may find a deal that meets your "price point."
As PullmanCo describes, there's plenty to do around Union Station. Restaurants, museums, theaters, Starbucks, shopping malls, chocolate shops--you'll likely find something that floats your boat in, or strollable from, the station. I really enjoyed Union Station itself. Check out www.unionstation.org for the current doings there.
We did not find a need to rent a car during our stay in KC. It's an easy walk (with luggage) from Union Station to the Westin (elevated and enclosed walkway, called The Link, connects the two). If you do have a need for a car rental, Hertz has an office at the Westin. But, hey--just hoof it.
Posted by sojourner (Member # 3134) on :
Thanks for the suggestions. Zephyr, if I could find a room for $100 a night, that would be wonderful! Pullman, I notice there are a lot of hotels at Country Club Plaza; would that be an even better place to stay, restaurantwise in the evenings, or am I better off by the train station? I like the idea of being right by the train station, anyways, and I definitely want to see the WWI monument. Where is the jazz museum, isn't that a must-see visit too? And that famous BBQ place, I forget the name. . . And must one only take taxis in KC? Are there no public buses, safe and reliable to take at least by day?
Train Lady, visiting the Truman Library would be interesting. However, I have been finding that these bus tours are very overpriced and don't always give enough time. I wonder if there is a public bus there. Or maybe I could just leave my hotel in KC a day early, catch the Ann Rutledge, see the library and stay overnight in Independence, and then catch the Ann Rutledge again eastbound the next day. Maybe the hotel in Independence would be a saving over another night in KC? OTOH, not if getting to it, and/or to the Truman Library, involves a lot of taxis. Does anyone know the lay of the land in Independence? Would walking be possible there, at least when I don't have luggage?
Thanks to all.
Posted by train lady (Member # 3920) on :
Sojourner, As I recall we did a fair amount of walking. I am trying to find out if there is a bus to Independence from K C. I have a vague impression of hearing that there is. We did not stay overnight there.Just spent some of the day and went on to ,I think, Carthage for the night. With the library closed we could go only to the residence, the drug store where Truman worked (where we had lunch) and a small museum. That took about a half day. It was an extremely hot day and my notes are not too complete for that day.
Posted by sojourner (Member # 3134) on :
Thanks, TL. And don't worry, I will give them a call to find out more, when I decide if I'm really going to KC. I am having to see aobut my budget, having traveled so much this year, so I'm not sure whether I will do it yet.
Posted by gregbkc (Member # 3726) on :
sojourner,
I alway suggest visitors stay on the Country Club Plaza. There is a wider variety of hotels there and the Plaza is much more lively at night than downtown by Union Station. There are a lot of resteraunts and bars in the Plaza area and if you do your homework, you can easily get a hotel room under $100/night (unless there is a large convention going on). Unfortunately, the Kansas City fountains will not yet be turned on if you visit in March. On the other hand, the Westin and Hyatt by Union Station are both nice and Crown Center can be quite busy at times. I'm just more partial to the Plaza neighborhood as I lived there for many years but currently live just up the hill from Union Station.
The Plaza is easy to get to from Union Station via The MAX, Kansas City's limited stop express bus service. The MAX has highly visible marked stops that have digital clocks telling you when the next bus is going to arrive. The MAX stop at Union Station is just outside the East enterance. MAX buses are distinctly different from other city buses so you wont get on the wrong one. By using the MAX, you could easily get to the following places: Union Station, Country Club Plaza, City Market. I mention the City Market because the Arabia Steamboat Museum is located there and is very interesting. Here is their webiste:
On the subject of the Truman Presidential Museum and Library, you could get there by public transport but it would be extremely difficult and depending on what day you go, could require as many as 3 bus transfers. If you go there, I would just go ahead and get a car for the day. As mentioned above, Hertz has a location right across the street from Union Station in the Westin Hotel.
The Jazz Museum is located at the historic 18th and Vine district just East of downtown. The Negro Leagues Baseball Museum is also located there. IMO, I wouldn't take public transportation to that area, I would only visit by personal car.
And dont forget to try some of our BBQ. Jack Stack BBQ is directly behind Union Station and will soon be accessable by pedestrian bridge from Union Station. Currently its about a 15 minute walk. The new bridge will go directly over the tracks that carry the SW Chief and Ann Rutledge and will bring you directly to the parking lot of Jack Stack. Cutting the time from 15 minutes to about 2. I'm not sure when its scheduled to open but it looks like they are about done.
Thank you so much for the lovely info. Even if I don't make the trip this March (and your info about the fountains makes me think maybe I should delay) I will use it when I go.
Would the Hampton Inn on 47th & Summit be a good location vis-a-vis Country Club Plaza?
The only thing is, I don't want to rent a car. When you said there was no convenient public transportation to the Truman Library, did that include taking the Ann Rutledge Amtrak in the morning (or Missouri Mule another time), staying over in Independence and seeing the Truman Library (i.e., is the library convenient from the train stop in Independence? and are hotels in Independence convenient to the library?) and leaving the area from Independence on the Ann Rutledge heading east? If I cannot do that, I think my best bet will be to look for a bus tour to the Truman Library out of KC, as Train Lady has suggested, or make the trip to KC with friend who would drive.
Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :
Good morning Sojourner, Train Lady, and the rest of y'all! Are you guys aware that the Ann Rutledge makes a stop in Independence, MO? You would not have to take 20 thousand busses to get from downtown KC to Independence to the Truman Libray after all! Sojourner, if you take the Ann Rutledge from Chicago or Springfield to KC, you could go to Independence first, then go into KC later. The "Missouri Mules" which operate between KC and St. Louis also stop at Independence.
Posted by sojourner (Member # 3134) on :
Good morning, Mr Rich. I see we were posting at the same time! I was aware of the Rutledge and Missouri Mules (see my second post) and thought I could stay overnight one night in Independence (since I'd have luggage); I just wondered where the library was in relation to the train staton and hotels in Independence, in terms of accessisbility without a car. But I will phone them up and find out.
Posted by zephyr (Member # 1651) on :
Thanks, gregbkc, for your excellent post about the KC area. I've filed it away as a great resource for planning my next trip to your neighborhood.
As others (see above), I'd be interested in any insights you can give us on Independence. Is the Amtrak station close to lodging, the Truman Library, and some of the hangouts trainlady hung out at? Know anything about the National Frontier Trail Center? Any other suggestions of things to do or see in Independence?
Oh, one little side question. What's with the large, bright, and obviously maintained Western Auto neon sign on a building near KCUS? I thought that company was long ago dumped into the dustbin of corporate history.
Posted by PullmanCo (Member # 1138) on :
I have to agree with Greg as regards Plaza v Crown Center overall. The issue turns on price point and activities. The Plaza has in recent years become an outdoor version of an upscale mall, similar to the shopping districts in Europes' major cities. Far more national stores.
Crown Center shops are more local stuff.
To Sojourner and RRRich: Regarding Independence, it's NOT walking distance from the Amtrak depot to Truman Library. Definitely cab. Let's just say Independence and central-east Kansas City are "not the best" parts of the metro. When was the last time you walked the streets of Independence Mr RRRich?
The National Frontier Trails Center is in downtown Independence, several miles from Truman Library.
Our city is not especially tourist-friendly in terms of intra and inter city transport. Rental Car is one way to go, taxicab another. Hotel concierges (Westin/Hyatt/Marriott grades) might have other resources; I live here, so I take my own friends on touristy things when they come to town.
By the way, my bona fides: I live in Parkville, off the old CB&Q mainline, and have since 1989. While I've not met Greg in person, what he says is reliable.
I'd also refer folks to Gates BBQ BBQ!!
Posted by PullmanCo (Member # 1138) on :
Mr Zephyr,
No hotels near the Amtrak station in Independence!! Nearest good ones are vicinity Kauffmann and Arrowhead Stadiums. Rental car essential in that part of town.
The Western Auto Building has become condos. The sign is "hysteric", so it has been kept!
There is another condo due north of the union station complex; it used to be the Stuart Hall Paper Company. The new owners used part of the lettering to read "Lofts"
Posted by zephyr (Member # 1651) on :
Thanks, PullmanCo, for your info and answering my question about the Western Auto building (neat that they kept that old, "hysteric" company sign on the building).
If I may bother you with one more question: Is there any talk of Kansas City getting a major league baseball team in the near future?
Posted by PullmanCo (Member # 1138) on :
Royals' Manager Buddy Bell's tonsils are coming out, and there is a question whether the growth is benign or malignant!
Posted by zephyr (Member # 1651) on :
quote:Originally posted by PullmanCo: That was a tad crass, Mr Zephyr
You know, I got the very same reaction when I asked that question at the Hertz desk at the Westin (had to rent a car to get up to St. Jo Mo). Turns out the person I was dealing with was the owner/franchisee, and he is an avid, season ticket carrying, true blue KC Royals fan. Jeez, I make this little wisecrack, and he starts talking fuel surcharges, special handling fees, and upgrading me into a 1972 Chevrolet Vega for just the same daily rate as a Corvette. Alright, already--Go Royals! Royals rule! Jeez...I was able to suppress the gag reflex and attempted to grovel my way to an upgrade to maybe a 76 AMC Pacer.
Actually, I went to a game while there. Beautiful stadium. Wonderful fans. Had a great time. But (it's the devil that makes me say this) the Royals did lose.
Posted by TwinStarRocket (Member # 2142) on :
Fortunes can turn quickly. A few hundred miles north up the former route of the TWIN Star Rocket, some early season doormats are contending for a pennant with guys they found in class A.
They long ago clinched 'best record in baseball for a state with one train'. Unfortunately they can no longer build on 'most World Series wins by a town without light rail'. Do these stats absolve me for going off topic?
Posted by zephyr (Member # 1651) on :
That team you're referring to, Mr. TSR, just happened to be the one playing the Royals the day I attended in early August. The Twins looked good then, and have only improved since. And believe me, Twins fans made up the majority (by far) in attendance at that game. Seems like the Twins have a very loyal fan base. And goofy too (I submit the thousands of "Circle Me Bert" signs as evidence). Being at a game in Kansas City surrounded by Minnesota fans made me feel like I was bouncing in and out of movie scenes from Fargo and Bull Durham. Eh?
And speaking of absolution for going off topic, is it true KC (with such a rich railroad heritage) has no light rail, street cars, trolley's? (Hey, how'd I do, Mr. Rocket--absolved?) Any plans in the works? As PullmanCo mentioned, we did not find it very tourist-friendly when it came to public transit (other than the Royals Express bus we took to the game with all those goofy Twins fans armed with their Circle Me Bert placards).
Posted by TwinStarRocket (Member # 2142) on :
Zephyr, the silly "Circle Me Bert" signs are just a way to get on TV. TV announcer Bert Blyleven (ex Twin's pitcher) gets them all on camera during the game so they show off to the folks back home.
Though I love KC, I also find it to have problems with transit. When I catch the SWC out west I drive down from MN (since there is no longer a Twin Star Rocket train to get me there). I would love to use KC as a connection point since there is so much there to do and it is all freeway, but parking is outlandish near the depot. When I used Rail Sale, the parking for a week was more than the train fare. I have been unable to find safe cheap parking with convenient transportation so I could leave my car there.
My honeymoon in 1977 involved driving to Warrensburg, getting a sleeper on the old National Limited that parked in KC and was picked up by the SWC. That worked great. Ten years ago I parked in the ramp by the old Amshak for only $6/day. But now I am stuck with the La Plata or Ft. Madison.
Posted by sojourner (Member # 3134) on :
Thanks for the info and all the baseball humor. It is sad when a team is doing badly; but fortunes can change--I remember when Kansas City had that hemorrhoidal fellow and did quite (annoyingly) well.
It sounds like the only real way to go to the Truman Library without a car is to use the tour bus Train Lady suggested, and stay in the same place in Kansas City, rather than bother changing hotels for a night. I think there is a Gray Line bus to the Library, or used to be.
Thanks again so much for all the info!
Posted by zephyr (Member # 1651) on :
quote:Originally posted by sojourner: ...It is sad when a team is doing badly; but fortunes can change--I remember when Kansas City had that hemorrhoidal fellow and did quite (annoyingly) well...
Huh? Dare I ask for more details on this "hemorrhoidal" player? I mean, did he have hemorrhoids? Or cause hemorrhoids? Or does this term describe his personality? Or how he looked? Or what?
Nah, let us not go there? (But, hmmm, I wonder who she's talking about?)
Wait, wait--I got it. George Brett. Old Number 5. He had to have surgery on his hemorrohoids after Game 2 of the 1980 World Series. KC getting to the Series by beating the Yankees in the playoffs. Which I suppose would "annoy" someone in Upstate New York.
Yeh, gotta be Brett. Ah, getting that tough trivia question is like Preparation H for the soul.
Posted by sojourner (Member # 3134) on :
Yes, George Brett. I actually couldn't remember his name. But my husband called him "Hemmorhoid Brett"! Anyway, I was just teasing . . .
We actually come from a mixed breed family--both Yankees fans and Yankees-haters, i.e., Boston Red Sox fans, some Mets fans. I used to be a Yankees fan but it was very hard, because I dislike Steinbrenner so much. Besides, ever since they split to that 3-division business, I just kinda lost interest.
Posted by gregbkc (Member # 3726) on :
sojourner, the Hampton Inn you mention is in a good location. If you were relying on public transportation, once you got off the MAX it would be an easy 10ish minute walk through the Plaza to get to the hotel.
Many here have mentioned one of KC's most embarrassing aspects (no, not the Royals!). And that is the lack of any decent public transportation. It is so sad because Kansas City used to host at least a couple trolley lines many years ago. One of which ran through a tunnel directly underneath the building that I work in. My company gives small tours of this tunnel to our employees a couple times a year. Another line has since been turned into a jogging/biking trail and covers 6.5 miles starting on the Plaza and heads South. Its called the Trolley Track Trail. Anyway, a couple years ago there was an initiative to start light rail, but the shortsighted folks here turned it down at the polls. KC is a "driving" town, and IMO it will take $5.00/gallon gas to get most people here to accept any kind of light rail. On a positive note, local nutball Clay Chastain is going to start a new petition for light rail. While his ideas might not be the best, at least he gets people talking about it.
TwinStarRocket mentioned the high cost of parking at Union Station. I agree, but then again $10/day is not uncommon for parking charges in any larger downtown area. (For those unaware, Union Station sits directly downtown in what is known as the Crossroads District) Also, Union Station finished its multi story parking garage so at least the cars are covered and the lot is patrolled. IMHO, its a fair price to pay to know that your car will be in one piece when you return. TwinStarRocket, I offer the free parking spot in front of my place next time your in town!
By the way, although I rarely post on this board, I have been lurking hear for almost 2 years. I have enjoyed many of the threads on this board and have learned so much about travel by rail. One of my favorite threads is still the one started by Ms. Conifer (First time on a train...with kids...am I nuts!?) LOL, that certainly was a roller coaster ride as it played out!
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
I have not, but I would suggest you do a search for Kansas City City Bus or variations thereof. Most cities that I have tried have their schedule information available on the web. Sometimes is is surprising how little people that do not use it know about bus service in their own city. You will probably find that what is there runs at intervals of 30 minutes or longer, and may service a fairly interesting clientelle, but by judicious planning I was able to live car free in Dallas for about a year in the mid 80's, to the complete astonishment of some of the people I worked with.
Posted by Tanner929 (Member # 3720) on :
I love it when Baseball can hijack a train blog for a bit. I remember a question about Houston went thru the World Series last year. With that in mine, First. I can't refer to "Old Number 5" I think to be refered to Old Number ..." the player had to have played in thick flannel uniforms, like say around the time of "Old Pete" (Nickname of Grover Alexander, who did play for Cleveland but is not to be confused with The Old President Grover Uhm where was I, oh yes, Even being a Yankee fan, and a big baseball fan during the 1970's to me George Brett was the best hitter I ever saw, hit for very high avg hit clutch homeruns ('76 Top 8th ties Game 5, 3 homeruns v Catfish Hunter game 3 '78, 4th at bat went to the track, and of course his HR in '80, and the Pine Tar HR)put him above his contemporeries, Carew, Rose and Gwynn.
Getting back to Trains sort of but staying with Baseball. The new Animated movie "Everybodys Hero" has a kid traveling with his talking baseball to Chicago via train, in the 1930's for the World Series (1932 Yanks Cubs). To me the best part is that the filmakers has the kid hopping the train from New Yorks old Pennsylvania Station. I've just seen the trailers but their is a clip of an animated scene of the old glass train shed. Glad they added this it could have been easier to just use Grand Central. sorry for hijacking the blog but well I've never been to Kansas City.
Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :
I don't read Train Web on the weekends usually, but I need to reply to PullmanCo's comment MANY MANY posts ago (but only a couple days)-- PullmanCo, no I have never been to Independence, MO -- but with all the talk about taking a bus or a taxicab from downtown Kansas City to Independence to the Truman Library, I was just wondering if any of the posters realized that AMTRAK actually serves Independence as well as KC.
Posted by train lady (Member # 3920) on :
The train leaves KC at 8:15 AM and gets to Independence at 9:10 Pm/ It leaves at 7:30 am for KC. That means one would have to spend 2 overnights in Independence.
Posted by sojourner (Member # 3134) on :
That can't be--it must be 9:10AM. It's just the next town, isn't it?
Posted by DeeCT (Member # 3241) on :
Sojourner -- I just typed it into reservations.
Train 314 --- LV 7:30 AM (Kansas City) AR 7:49 AM (Indepence)
If you wanted to make it a one day round trip here are the return times.
Train 311 LV KC 1:35 PM AR IND 2:10 PM
Train 323 LV KC 8:36 PM AR IND 9:10 PM
Posted by train lady (Member # 3920) on :
that was my reaction too. But if you look at the time table you will see the train goes from Chi to St. Louis, there is a lay over and it gets to Ind at 8:36 PM. I made a mistake as it gets to KC at 9:10.
Posted by zephyr (Member # 1651) on :
And trains depart Independence for KC at 1:35 pm and 8:36 pm.
Note the westbound trip is a 35 minute ride (about 15 minutes longer than eastbound). This time discrepancy must be due to the continuous and very strong west winds in that area.
Posted by RRCHINA (Member # 1514) on :
George Brett says that experience is .. all behind him .. and he is still in the Royals organization.
Posted by DeeCT (Member # 3241) on :
Zephyr - Was just editing my post and did not realize you had posted the return info. But glad you did as it confirms to me that I did not mis-speak.
Dee
And it looks like a neat day trip -- without having to worry about luggage. Since it is so close I would wonder if there is not some sort of alternate transportation that would allow you to make the same day trip.
Posted by zephyr (Member # 1651) on :
quote:Originally posted by RRCHINA: George Brett says that experience is .. all behind him ..
See, Sojourner, what you started?
Look, I think we should stop making light of a serious national health crisis. George Brett should be lauded for his handling of this medical problem.
For those of you in railforum land who have only lived when a Bush or Clinton was President, George Brett was a great baseball player. Hall of Famer. In 1980, he almost hit 400. He tailed off at the end of the season due to his "problem."
KC made the World Series that year. After Game 2, Brett had to have emergency surgery on his hemorrhoids. KC fans worried that was the end of Brett for the remaining games.
But he courageously came back, hitting a homerun and going 2-4 in Game 3.
What wasn't widely reported was KC Manager Jim Frey indeed planned on benching Brett after the surgery. My sources (at Joe's Bar & Grill) say Frey's meeting with Brett just before Game 3 might have gone something like this:
Frey: George, I think it's best to bench ya' today.
Brett: Nope, ain't sittin' on the bench.
Frey: But you've just had that there hemi operation.
Brett: Yeh. That's why I ain't sittin' on the bench.
Posted by sojourner (Member # 3134) on :
Oh, you meant Chicago to Independence. I thought you posted that it took all that time to go from KC to Independence.
I was talking about going to Chicago, then SW Chief to KC for a few nights, then going to Independence the next morning (35 minute ride or something), staying overnight there, and then heading for springfield IL from Independence. Chicago won't come into it till later.
But if it's so hard to get from Independence train to Truman Library, I guess I won't do it anyway. I guess I have to take the Gray Line tour from KC to the Library and back, and stay in KC another night.
As for George Brett, he was very good, which is why he was the butt of our hemorrhoidal insults!!!
Butt to me the best hitter I saw back then was Rod Carew. Just the games I saw.
Posted by train lady (Member # 3920) on :
you got it. I just figured that out
Posted by Tanner929 (Member # 3720) on :
Sojourner,
Gotta disagree, Saw both Brett and Carew and gotta give it to Brett (more power) also Carew could never hit Guidry. Train subject 7 degrees of seperation of George Brett Kansas City - Minniapolis - St Louis and Philadelphia) Kansas City, where he played has restored its magnificant station to Amtrak service, The Twin City,where Carew played, saved the former Union Station as a restraunt, wonder if Amtrak will return? Philadelphia,where Royals lost to Phillies in World Series keeps up the 30th St Station like it was 1920. And St Louis where Royals beat the Cards in the World Series has restored its Great Union Station (has Amtrak returned yet?) The character of a city can be seen in how it treats its train stations.
Posted by Liberty Limited (Member # 4300) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tanner929: Sojourner, The character of a city can be seen in how it treats its train stations.
Hmm, interesting analysis.
We treat our old Penn Station here reasonably well, though our Orioles are wrapping up their 9th consecutive losing streak, while the New Yawkers, who committed the 8th Deadly Sin when they tore down their Pennsylvania Station are quite possibly in a position to enjoy a "Subway Series!" Posted by TwinStarRocket (Member # 2142) on :
Tanner, the status of stations in the Twin Cities is as follows:
Pre-Amtrak there was a Union Station in St. Paul and two stations in Minneapolis: The Great Northern and Milwaukee. On A-day, Amtrak abandoned St. Paul and used the Great Northern in Minneapolis. A few years later Amtrak built a new unremarkable station in an industrial area of St. Paul, midway between the 2 downtowns, with several platforms, as if expanded service was expected. Trackage there is actually on a small railroad called Minnesota Commercial, about a 1 mile connection between the old Milwaukee Hiawatha mainline (now Canadian Pacific) and the Burlington Northern main line.
The Great Northern station in Minneapolis was torn down for condos, but it was the least remarkable of the three. The Milwaukee Depot is now part of a hotel complex, where the old covered metal trainshed is now a popular ice rink in winter. The dead end rails into the depot became the local light rail ROW.
Union Station in St. Paul remains a magnificent and well maintained building. Over the years it has housed many restaurants, TV studios, and offices. It is currently being renovated for condos on its upper floors (now on sale for you railfans), and a $50 million federal grant has been obtained to turn it into a transportation hub for light rail, HSR to Chicago, and very likely Amtrak.
The Empire Builder runs through the narrow area between this building and the Mississippi on the ex-Milwaukee main. The ex-Rock Island (now UP) "spine line" to KC and Texas starts at this depot with a lift bridge over the Mississippi. Burlington, Northern Pacific, and Great Norhtern all passed just east, and their passenger trains backed into the depot. My parking lot for work is in the middle of all this, trackside -a great spot for trainwatching.
If Amtrak moves back to St. Paul Union Station, we will lose the free parking and a atation walking distance from my home. But passenger rail will gain the most beautiful building in St. Paul, very similar in looks to the KC depot but not as large.
Posted by PullmanCo (Member # 1138) on :
As regards the Royals,
My frustration with Mr Zephyr was considering the moment that our manager was ill enough to leave the field and head to Mayo Clinic-Arizona. Had our manager been well, I'd have been asking which AA Team did Mr Zephyr wish to talk about, the Royals or the T-Bones.
The issue of increased time from Independence back into KC is the issue of joining the inbound traffic queue to Neff Yard and then negotiating from the UP tracks to the KCT tracks for the run into Union Station.
Additionally, the run from KC to Independence is "rather full" of coal trains ... if you expect timeliness, well, better you than me.
Posted by zephyr (Member # 1651) on :
PullmanCo, your "frustration" is a good example of how the very same remark can cause totally different reactions at different times and in different contexts. Bad timing on my part.
Speaking of the minor leagues, I wish I would have caught you at a better time. I would liked to have bantered a little T-Bone with you. I did catch an American Association game in St. Joseph (the Blacksnakes). I'm to the point where I enjoy minor league games as much or more than "The Bigs."
Now about that increased travel time from Independence to KC (vs. vice versa). Mean to tell me it isn't a west wind thing in your area?
I checked out the east end of the Kansas City to St. Louis run. Found the same phenomena. Kirwood to St. Loo takes 42 minutes, and vice versa takes 29 minutes. Is there a strong east wind that blows continuously in eastern Missouri?
I spot-checked one more. CZ Naperville to Chicago takes 1 hr 33 minutes. CZ from Chicago whizzes into Naperville in 34 minutes. Again, a wind thing? Or local time zone changes I'm missing? Or are the engines just more rested and refreshed at the start of the trip, and therefore faster?
Or is it...... padding? Posted by 1702 (Member # 4508) on :
Padding, of course. A few other examples-
#3 CHI-Naperville 35" 4 Naperville-CHI 1'06"
8 Seattle-Edmonds 32" 7 Edmonds-Seattle 1'12"
58 New Orleans-Hammond 1'03" 59 Hammond-New Orleans 1'57"
and perhaps the champ- 2 Los Angeles-Pomona 41" 1 Pomona-Los Angeles 1'55".
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
Sometimes it does take more time into the last stop if the train has to go through a wye and back in. For this add 10 to 15 minutes to the straight out time. There may need to be an extra 5 minutes or so if there are hand throw switches involved that would already be set for the outbound. But, usually this extra time into the terminal station is simply padding in the schedule. It varies with the train, length of run, and normal timliness of the schedule. About 5 to 10 minutes is really not padding at all, but allowing for glitches that would not happen to the departing train. 15 to 20 minutes is fairly normal for a medium distance run. It was seldom more than 15 to 30 minutes when the railroads themselves were running the trains. Most of teh long distance trains seem to have over 30 minutes up to an hour of padding. A few are rediculously more. I think that at one time the Sunset had near 2 hours of padding into Los Angeles.
George
Posted by zephyr (Member # 1651) on :
A reveiw of timetables (hey, ya' got somethun' better to do?) also shows variations in train velocities mid-route. Especially between podunk oh-dark-thirty stops (I call it the "slop zone" on the schedules).
Take Chico, CA (considered by many as the Amtrak stop with the very best station-side entertainment thanks to all the college kids who wander by after "closing time").
From Sacramento to Chico, the NB CS (14) takes 1'56" (scheduled CIC ETA 1:55 a.m., the "closing time" per Calif liquor laws is 2:00 a.m., ergo the entertainment). SB CS (11) to SAC slows down, taking 2'25" (30 minutes longer) per timetable.
It seems the published timetable ETA's in the "slop zone" are, let's say, optimistic. In best case scenarios, the Coast Starlight can arrive on time in Chico (to board/detrain a very small number of passengers). About as often as pigs fly, but it can theoretically arrive as advertised. It's like: there's a remote possibility we'll be there at X:XX a.m., so you better be there then (but call Julie for an update).
Now, if you were a timetable author, you'd probably do the same thing. You would publish the most "optimistic" ETA for Chico and like towns. An early arrival would be "unacceptable." It would require the Starlight to linger (bad manners to leave earlier than advertised) in Chico and cause delays in getting to "there" (Sacramento and other "important" stops). Besides, you're tying up the main (no siding at CIC). And the train is a nuisance to the locals as it blocks downtown streets during it's stop (to say nothing of hindering the progress of the students staggering back to the dorms). You'd want to get 'em off, get 'em on, and get. No holdun' for "runners" in Chico. The priority for 11 is SAC, where we're talking bigger crowds, service stop, connections, and toilet repairs.
If it wasn't for some silly safety considerations, I suspect Amtrak would prefer to keep the wheels rolling through Chico and other small towns in the "slop zones." Just throw the passengers off (say, into a thickly padded area) and snag a sack of boarders hanging from an old mail hook (like a variation of the bygone RPO days). But they stop. Almost never at the time advertised. And not for long. But they stop, and I'm so glad they do.
Posted by TwinStarRocket (Member # 2142) on :
I speak for many Minnesotans when I say thou shalt never speak ill of the Kansas City Royals again.
Posted by zephyr (Member # 1651) on :
Well, circle me Bert. Look who's AL Central champs. Thanks to a little help Sunday from our much maligned Royals. Now....
Go A's.
Posted by Tanner929 (Member # 3720) on :
Liberty I visited Baltimore this summer and was very impressed with how Baltimore treats its train stations your Penn Station, Mt Royal Camden Station and the B&O Museum. While the Late Great Pennsylvania Station is buried its death did inspire the protection of other magnificient structures. TwinStar I am glad Minneapolis-St Paul saved the stations but won't shed a tear on the demise of the Humphery Dome, hey will the Vikings return to outdoor football?
Posted by Tanner929 (Member # 3720) on :
We in NY see that Kenny Rogers is in prime playoff performance, nice job in relief sunday.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
quote:Originally posted by zephyr: From Sacramento to Chico, the NB CS (14) takes 1'56" (scheduled CIC ETA 1:55 a.m., the "closing time" per Calif liquor laws is 2:00 a.m., ergo the entertainment). SB CS (11) to SAC slows down, taking 2'25" (30 minutes longer) per timetable.
It seems the published timetable ETA's in the "slop zone" are, let's say, optimistic. In best case scenarios, the Coast Starlight can arrive on time in Chico (to board/detrain a very small number of passengers). About as often as pigs fly, but it can theoretically arrive as advertised. It's like: there's a remote possibility we'll be there at X:XX a.m., so you better be there then (but call Julie for an update).
This actually appears reasonable. First: the time between a major point and the first station beyond it is quite frequently scheduled right at minimum run time, which appears to be the case here. Second: the only time given for Sacramento is a leaving time, but the southbound schedule probably includes some dwell time. Then, since this is the last segment into a major stop, it probably includes some slack. The distance is only 84 miles, so even on a 70 mph limit railroad with quite a few permanent speed restrictions, the 1h 56m northbound time, an average of 43.4 mph, is not exactly light speed.
George
Posted by TwinStarRocket (Member # 2142) on :
Tanner: Vikings still lobbying legislature for their new stadium, all current proposals far from downtown. Twins new stadium downtown will have light rail extension, and is situated on the old route of the Empire Builder when it ran on Great Northern tracks through Wilmar instead of St. Cloud. It will also be at southern end of commuter rail to St. Cloud.
Posted by Tanner929 (Member # 3720) on :
Well TwinStarRocket both favorites went down hard. feel good story baseball is the Tigers the Auto Industry is falling again but they have the Tigers...Like old Tiger (Briggs) Stadium the Michigan Central Depot is still standing in its glorious ruin perhaps some day it will be the priciest most sought after condo address in Detroit.
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