Hey all, up here in Washington we are having some severe cold and icey roads really icey, what does weather like this do to the tracks does it effect train traffic...
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
Generally, nothing. The main concern is ice freezing the switches, but chances are most in that part of the country have heaters. If there are still open wire signal lines, they could be affected. Sometimes the flangewasy at road crossings will freeze up with solid ice, but that is unlikely to be a problem with this snow. People sliding on the snow and ice and thereby not stopping at road crossings and getting hit by trains or running into the sides of trains can be a problem. Poeple unable to get to work can result in the lack of a crew to run the train.
Truly deep freezing of the ground can cause the tracks to heave, but again not likely this early in the season. Blowing snow can drift over the tracks, particularly in cuts. Again unlikely now. A wet snow less than nearly a foot deep generally should not delay anything.
Posted by royaltrain (Member # 622) on :
In the Canadian West, it has been minus 30 in Edmonton and many other places. From another source I have just been informed that The Canadian has been running over 12 hours late into Vancouver and over nine hours late into Winnipeg (eb) and that the train has not made it into Toronto in the last few days, being annulled in Capreol about 275 miles north of Toronto. Having travelled in extreme cold many times, I know there are speed restrictions or even times when the rails will break. That is probably why the Canadian is having all these problems. My problem is that I am due to depart Toronto on Dec. 16th with a connection in Vancouver on the Cascade to Seattle, then connecting with #11 to Los Angeles. Would it be possible at this late date to re-book on the Empire Builder, connecting out of Buffalo on the Lake Shore? Is Montana as cold as Alberta?
Posted by MontanaJim (Member # 2323) on :
Well I am from Montana, and it sure can get cold (highs around 0 degrees fahrenheit these days) but it doesnt get as cold as it used to (global warming, and i dont think it gets quite as cold for as long a period of time as northern alberta and manitoba.
Posted by train lady (Member # 3920) on :
Don't forget that Alberta and Montana share a common border. Last night on the news Great Falls Montana was reported as -17 (f). so I guess it can get pretty cold. As to rebooking you have to call Amtrak and check it out. I assume it depends on what accomodations you want and what is available.
Posted by royaltrain (Member # 622) on :
There is a long range forecast indicating somewhat warmer temperatures in the next week or so. I did check with Amtrak on-line and bedrooms are available as of today for both the Empire Builder and the Lake Shore departing the 16th of Dec. However I'll probably risk the northern Canadian route to Los Angeles, as I would hate giving up a trip on The Canadian. Hoping as well that the Cascade out of Vancouver is not cancelled as it was two years ago when I last attempted this connection.
Posted by David (Member # 3) on :
VIA has again annulled the Canadian at Capreol - and this because it was a mere six hours late this evening. The passengers are being treated to a bus trip to Toronto, with an ETA of 1:00 a.m. I don't know if there will be a "shuttle" train tomorrow to take passengers for the westbound train up to Capreol or whether there will be another bustitution. Tuesday's departure of the Canadian was a shuttle between Toronto and Capreol, but this train included two diners and a Park car (dome lounge) in its consist which, I'm sure, passengers would prefer to a bus.
Posted by jp1822 (Member # 2596) on :
I spoke to an VIA rep this evening and they expect things to be back to normal very shortly. Not sure how they can predict that, but they were very upbeat about the whole thing. I also asked about a trip in mid-December and they said - it won't be an issue by then. Again, not sure how they can be so certain in such information.
They annulled at Capreol to ensure that passengers would still get to Toronto at a reasonable hour - on a bus. Seems out of the ordinary for VIA. VIA rep also stated they were "out of their time slot" so I guess this may be causing some issues with host railroads - greater than it would for long distance Amtrak trains.
I am surprised they are not operating a better stub train, such as a baggage car, regular coach, VIA 1 coach (for sleeping car passengers), Skyline Car, Diner, and Park Car between Toronto and Capreol. They have the equipment. Perhaps it needs to be shifted from MMC in Montreal to Toronto?
The Canadian can run with up to 30 cars in peak season and still have a spare trainset in Vancouver (which is now maintained year-round there). Now that VIA is in the off season, one would think they would certainly have cars around. Likely some shuffling is needed if this is to keep up.
I would continue to monitor the situation and check back with VIA. Typically VIA is more reliable than Amtrak - even when compared to the Empire Builder.
Posted by rachsewell (Member # 4339) on :
well, thanx for all the info, i was just curious... my daughter and i will be haeding down to sac on the starlight on the 14th and wondered if the cold would effect the trip...guess not...super!!!
Posted by jp1822 (Member # 2596) on :
Well - an update for tomorrow, Thursday, November 30, has the westbound train operating as a bus from Toronto to Capreol. Evidentally things are quite congested on the Transcon, particuarly West of Capreol. Bus choice for tomorrow, Nov 30, is supposedly more efficient for operations. I think more snow may be on the way for Ontario though, but the West may get a break. So VIA is having their rough time! I don't recall hearing about bussing and stub trains like this before - for VIA's Canadian.
Supposedly the eastbound Canadian - which will turn for the westbound Canadian - is running around 4 hours late out of Edmonton, but they are being hopeful that this train makes it all the way to Toronto and makes up time as well, so it can depart as the westbound Canadian out of Toronto on Saturday, December 2.
From experience, the Canadian can make up time pretty well, but not sure if there's a lot of congestion on the lines as mentioned.
Last winter on a trip across Canada we ran into a ton of snow in Ontario, but maintained the schedule! I had never seen so much snow in a train yard before, as I had seen in Capreol. It was interesting to see them trying to clear out the yard.
I wonder if the CN and CP are being more cooperative in sharing trackage - for freight that is. Don't think this is spilling over to VIA's Canadian, operating largely on CN trackage, other than what CN-CP running is already in place at certain sections.
I think VIA needs to get a spare set of equipment for the Canadian in Toronto, like they have in Vancouver. Again, they certainly should have the cars to shuffle around (now that VIA is in the off season), even with the Ocean running with one set of ex-CP Budd Stainless Steel trainsets (while a the Renaissance trainsets are being rotated for servicing).
Amtrak can run 12 hour late trains, but VIA seems to have an issue with that.
Posted by sojourner (Member # 3134) on :
Isn't the Cascades/Coast Starlight having some trouble too, from all that bad weather in the NW?
Posted by Beacon Hill (Member # 4431) on :
Service between Seattle and Portland, including the Starlight, stayed fairly close to schedule. I know getting to the airport in Seattle was a nightmare and driving was only attempted by the foolish or daring. Service between Seattle and Vancouver, BC was much more difficult, due to greater snowfall. As much as 18 inches of snow was reported near the border.
Posted by David (Member # 3) on :
quote:Originally posted by jp1822: ... I think VIA needs to get a spare set of equipment for the Canadian in Toronto, like they have in Vancouver. Again, they certainly should have the cars to shuffle around (now that VIA is in the off season), even with the Ocean running with one set of ex-CP Budd Stainless Steel trainsets (while a the Renaissance trainsets are being rotated for servicing). ...
I agree, VIA should be able to have a spare set of equipment for the Canadian available in Toronto. There are 40 "Manor" sleepers in the fleet and they are used only on the Canadian except at Christmas-New Year's when one or two may be run on the Ocean. The Canadian usually has only three of these sleepers in the winter, and even when a few extra cars are operated that leaves plenty of spares. Coaches, diners and Park cars are also readily available.
What could be a problem, though, is the crewing arrangements. Unlike Vancouver, which is a secondary crew base for the Canadian, Toronto is not. All on board crews working the Canadian east of Winnipeg are based in Winnipeg. Sometimes crew have to be flown from Winnipeg to Toronto if they cannot be deadheaded by train. The Toronto-based "corridor" crews can staff the shuttle train to Capreol, but there would have to be some changes to the crewing arrangements to run an extra consist of the Canadian from Toronto to Winnipeg and beyond. I'm sure that isn't an insurmountable problem.
Posted by royaltrain (Member # 622) on :
It's outrageous that Via should get away with treating passengers so poorly. This is usually an Amtrak stunt, and there is no way that I would take a bus ride 275 miles on icy, treacherous roads to Capreol. Back in 2000 Amtrak ejected their passengers from the w/b Texas Eagle in Dallas just because it was running 12 hours late. Unlike all the others, however, I elected to stay in Dallas for the next train (also not running) eventually renting a car and driving to San Antonio where I caught the Sunset. Amtrak refused to pay for my expenses, so I sued them and won. Amtrak agreed to give me a free deluxe bedroom on my next trip which I accepted in lieu of money. I would certainly do the same to Via rather then take a bus. Since I'm due to take The Canadian in two weeks to Vancouver, I guess I should start preparing for my next day in court.
Posted by jp1822 (Member # 2596) on :
Well today's Canadian eastbound into Toronto is scheduled to arrive at 3:45 a.m. and supposedly its going to run through with no bus service at Capreol. Hopefully things will get back to normal up there. This really bizarre for VIA. If it were Amtrak, I'd understand.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
quote:Originally posted by jp1822: Well today's Canadian eastbound into Toronto is scheduled to arrive at 3:45 a.m. and supposedly its going to run through with no bus service at Capreol. Hopefully things will get back to normal up there. This really bizarre for VIA. If it were Amtrak, I'd understand.
I was amazed on an April, 2004 trip aboard VIA from Vancouver to Winnipeg that we ran through an Alberta blizzard yet maintained track speed and arrived early or on-time at every station. The experiance of riding at full speed through a heavy snow from the rear dome was absolutely spectactular.
Posted by MontanaJim (Member # 2323) on :
written by RoyalTrain" It's outrageous that Via should get away with treating passengers so poorly. This is usually an Amtrak stunt, and there is no way that I would take a bus ride 275 miles on icy, treacherous roads to Capreol. Back in 2000 Amtrak ejected their passengers from the w/b Texas Eagle in Dallas just because it was running 12 hours late. Unlike all the others, however, I elected to stay in Dallas for the next train (also not running) eventually renting a car and driving to San Antonio where I caught the Sunset. Amtrak refused to pay for my expenses, so I sued them and won. Amtrak agreed to give me a free deluxe bedroom on my next trip which I accepted in lieu of money. I would certainly do the same to Via rather then take a bus. Since I'm due to take The Canadian in two weeks to Vancouver, I guess I should start preparing for my next day in court. "
-----
How can you win a lawsuit against Amtrak? As has been pointed out by others, Amtrak's liability lies with getting you from point A to point B. You elected to not go with the others and stayed in Dallas.
I have been on plenty of train trips in which things didnt go my way, but I just figured that I was taking a risk by taking the train, and just went with the flow.
Posted by royaltrain (Member # 622) on :
Re: Montana Jim's question about how you can sue Amtrak. The railway's liability lies not just in transporting you from A to B, but in accordance with the agreement with the passenger to do so by train in the accommodation purchased (a deluxe bedroom) and not a bus. There was no operational reason to annul the train, it was just very late. Amtrak could not rely on the fine print of the ticket that says something to effect that they have the right to substitute transportation. I persuaded the judge that Amtrak doesn't have such an unfettered right, that it would only apply in emergency situations--a late train is not an emergency. Amtrak fought me tooth and nail on this issue, but eventually they gave up and offered a free bedroom on my next trip which is all I wanted anyway.
Posted by David (Member # 3) on :
VIA has done the right thing with the Canadian due in Toronto Friday - this the third consecutive eastbound run to be seriously delayed. Instead of treating the passengers (including those who have paid dearly for sleeping accommodation) to a middle of the night bus ride from Capreol, they allowed the train to proceed to Toronto. I had three friends on this train so my interest is more than just curiosity. The passengers were cautioned in Winnipeg Thursday night that the train may be annulled in Capreol and they might be bussed to Toronto. They took a chance and it worked out well.
Arrival at Toronto was 4:19 a.m. and they were allowed to remain on board until 6:15. A continental breakfast buffet was set up in the diner from 5:30.
One has to wonder why the previous train, only six hours late, was annulled at Capreol and this most recent train was allowed to complete its run although eight hours late. But this is the way it should be. With freezing rain and/or snow predicted for the area between Toronto and Capreol, busses should be out of the question.
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
quote:Originally posted by MontanaJim: Well I am from Montana, and it sure can get cold (highs around 0 degrees fahrenheit these days) but it doesnt get as cold as it used to (global warming, and i dont think it gets quite as cold for as long a period of time as northern alberta and manitoba.
************** There must be global warming, Jim. I lived in Browning, Montana (just east of Glacier Park) from 1970-1972 and we had a few days where it got down to minus 40 below. A lot of days in the minus 30 bracket. Sometimes the snowdrifts, along the highway, would get up to 20 feet high. I am still wondering how any train could get through in that kind of weather. The good, old chinook winds were a help in warming things up.