With a nod to a couple of posters (George Harris and TwinStarRocket) on the Kansas City thread, I'll start the holiday season rolling with my 'wish list' of 5 routes I would like to see Amtrak service return (or be inuagurated for the first time) to.
In no particular order -
1) A 'Twin Star Rocket'
Service from the Twin Cities to Texas connecting to and from the Chief at Kansas City. South of KC this train might possibly go to Oklahoma City (a reroute from the original) and incorporate the Heartland Flyer.
2) Bring back the 'Pioneer'
Service Denver to Seattle through Wyoming. I know UP would love this just as much as.......
3) Bring back the 'Desert Wind'
Salt Lake City to Los Angeles via Las Vegas. It's time that Amtrak goes to Las Vegas again.
4) Some version of the 'South Wind'
Whether Amtrak ever restores the Sunset east of New Orleans or not, one huge 'missing link' is a direct train from Chicago to Florida. My preference for a new South Wind would be via Indianapolis, Louisville, Nashville, Chattanooga, and Atlanta.....relying heavily on former L&N routes now operated by every passenger train rider's friend, the CSX.
5) The 'Asheville Special'.
Frommer's has just named Asheville, NC as one of the top top tourist destinations in the United States (something we who live in the area already know) and it's high time to make good on a route the NCDOT has been 'studying' since 1994. Just 140 miles from Asheville to Salisbury would link us to the rest of the national system but since we're dreaming why not turn south at Salisbury and run through Charlotte and on to Columbia, SC. Carry a through sleeper to Miami on the Silver Star. My family (Here and in Orlando) would generate probably 8-10 roundtrips a year on this train.
Looking forward to seeing other folks' additions to my wish list.
Posted by Geoff M (Member # 153) on :
Wow, you certainly don't believe in easy routes, do you?!?! Though I do agree, especially 2, 3, and maybe 4.
Can you explain what is so exciting about Asheville, NC? I've heard of it but that's as far as my knowledge goes. Even a Google search just says "a nice place to live" which doesn't exactly tempt me!
Geoff M.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
Good choices David. On the South Wind route, I think I'd have to go via Cincinnati - simply because the logistics are already in place to operate there and, more importantly, CUT is my all time favorite terminal.
Thanks for the service to Columbia- we appreciate that - and why not continue on to Charleston, another tourist favorite. Be good to have decent intra state service.
My additions-
1. A front range flyer: El Paso-Albuguerque -Trinidad-Colo Springs-Denver. Maybe connections north to Boulder, Ft. Collins, Cheyenne.
2, Give Virigina and Tenn DOT projects an assist and put on service from Washingotn-Lynchburg- Bristol- Knoxville. There is talk of rebuilding the old Tennesse Central route from Knoxville to Nashville (western end is now the Music City Star commuter service).
3, A connection at Cincinnati to St. Louis and KC for better western connections from the southeast. As has been discussed elsewhere, do this by splitting the Cardinal at Cinci.
4. As long as we are dreaming, how about a train linking the midwest and mid south (especially if your South Wind goes via Nashville - a good idea): Cleveland-Columbus-Cinci-Knoxville-Atlanta.
5. Great a premium level train on the Broadway Ltd route connecting to an upgraded CZ.
I'll be looking for these in the next timetable.
Posted by 20th Century (Member # 2196) on :
Through(no changes)train service in the NE corridor all the way to Portland,ME and Bangor,ME. Also full dining service (LOL) or improved meal service on trains which travel 8 hrs. or more. Capital improvements on the trackage between NYC and Boston to improve high speed Acela express service. Also improved track along the rocky, bouncing line to Florida. An accelerated, improved program of repair,and rehabilitation of rolling stock...especially the sleepers.
Posted by 20th Century (Member # 2196) on :
Correction: rocky was meant to be written as rocking.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
quote:Originally posted by Geoff M: Wow, you certainly don't believe in easy routes, do you?!?! Though I do agree, especially 2, 3, and maybe 4.
Can you explain what is so exciting about Asheville, NC? I've heard of it but that's as far as my knowledge goes. Even a Google search just says "a nice place to live" which doesn't exactly tempt me!
Geoff M.
Hi Geoff,
The big draws for Asheville would be the nearby Great Smoky Mountains, the famous Biltmore House which was George Vanderbilt's (of the New York Central Vanderbilts) estate, and the boyhood home of early 20th century novelist Thomas Wolfe.
Asheville is also becoming increasingly popular with the counter-culture types. Garrison Keillor has called Asheville "the Santa Fe of the East".....as in Santa Fe, New Mexico....not the railroad!
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
quote:Originally posted by palmland: Good choices David. On the South Wind route, I think I'd have to go via Cincinnati - simply because the logistics are already in place to operate there and, more importantly, CUT is my all time favorite terminal.
Also good.
You would be recreating the 'Royal Palm' rather than the 'South Wind' but I would have no complaints with that.
Posted by Geoff M (Member # 153) on :
quote:Originally posted by notelvis: The big draws for Asheville would be the nearby Great Smoky Mountains
Ah, that would be where I heard of it. Thanks for that. The other connections are interesting too.
Geoff M.
Posted by jp1822 (Member # 2596) on :
1) City of New Orleans extended to at least Jacksnoville (at least get it to Florida) then connections can be made with the Silver Service trains.
2) Pioneer - perhaps a section just from Salt Lake City to Seattle would be more easier to launch than on UP's overland route.
3) Rail service to connect the 3-C's in the Midwest.
4) Split the Crescent at Meridian and run a section to Texas (Ft. Worth or Dallas) - the Crescent Star plan. Would provide connectivity on various north-south Amtrak lines in the region
5) Overnight routes - be it LA to San Fransisco, Montreal to NYC, Boston to Washington, New York City to Pittsburgh, Washington to Vermont.
Posted by Judy McFarland (Member # 4435) on :
and while we're dreaming, how about an extra train or two between Chicago & Minneapolis, thru Milwaukee. Only service now is the Empire Builder. And BTW Milwaukee got slammed this morning by 10" of snow between 4 AM and noon. According to the radar, it seems isolated to Chicago & southeastern Wisconsin, so it might not delay the Empire Builder today
Posted by CG96 (Member # 1408) on :
I concur regarding the need for a KC - Twin Cities train. Also, a Omaha - St. Paul train.
Of course, the first thing that I would do if I could get Amtrak the funding would to have two trains per day over the existing routes, separated by, say 8, or 12 hours. Two EB and Two WB trains per route each day. While the direct costs would increase, there would be more passenger traffic to offset these.
The 3x/week trains would also become daily, too.
Re route the Empire Builder's route to swing through Madison, WI. This would require some considerable funding, though. WI DOT estimates US $ 50 million just to fix the tracks between Portage and Mad Town from Class 2-3 to Class 4 (59 mph speed limit). Several million $$ more to fix up the track between Madison and Milwaukee, though much of that is already class 3.
There is the option of using the current WSOR (ex-MILW) line via Whitewater and Milton, WI to get from Mad Town to Milw. I think it has been upgraded and improved by the State of WI to FRA Class 3 specs. That line was part of the first line built between those two municipalities.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
CG96,
There was a period when I worked with a summer youth organization in Madison and would have loved to have been able to fly into Milwaukee and take the train to Madison from there.
Realistically speaking, improving the track through Sun Prairie and extending three or four Hiawathas into is more likely to happen before any of the items on my wish list.
Posted by sojourner (Member # 3134) on :
The 3x a week trains absolutely should be daily, esp for the Cardinal.
The most needed train is FL to Chicago, via Atlanta, Chattanooga & Nashville. And, if possible, it should stop in Tallahassee too.
It would be nice to have a train in Asheville, NC, too.
Train service to Las Vegas is a definite need.
And Arizona has grown a plenty and should have stops in Phoenix/Scottsdale. In fact, there ought to be a train from Flagstaff to Phoenix and Scottsdale to Tucson, if that is physically possible.
Ohio is the sort of state that should have trains at least as good as Pennsylvania's, but doesn't. There should be a round robin train serving Cleveland, Akron, Columbus, Cincinnati, and Toledo.
There ought to be a train to get to Yellowstone Park and Mt Rushmore and somewhere reasonablly accessible to Bryce Canyon.
And there ought to be more trains up to Canada. There should be more than one Cascades train up to Vancouver, BC, and it should go Portland to Seattle to Vancouver, and return; not just between Seattle and Vancouver. That train from Chicago to Toronto through Detroit should be reinstated. And there ought to be a train from Minneapolis to Winnepeg. And if physically possible, there ought to be a train up to Calgary too.
Yes, bring back the Pioneer. Would that stop in both Boise and Helena? Because there really ought to be stops there
And bring back that Kentucky train too.
There also ought to be train stops in Boise, Helena, Tulsa, and Wichita.
And definitely more service in Maine. And New Hampshire too.
Posted by Tanner929 (Member # 3720) on :
Thogh not Dream routes but I think it would be nice if we could get service between major city's which might bet some traffic off the roads. Restore rail service to Louisville to Cinncinatti. Ever thought of connecting Detroit with Toledo? High Point to Ashville would be nice though could be a nice tourist train to Ashville especially during Autum and When Biltmore is decorated for Christmas. Out West it seems that if they are going to play around with High Speed Trains a route from LA to Las Vegas would be the optimium area to build it. Also restore a a daytime train to Pittsburgh would be nice it could terminate in Pittsburgh or perhaps terminating at Cleveland. Why would some one want to get off a train in Pittsburgh at 7:30 PM?
Posted by ehbowen (Member # 4317) on :
Speaking of the South Wind--
Last night I was working on publishing some of the Florida service timetables, including the South Wind from June 1941. You can see exactly what I'm talking about here.
Take a look at that timetable, and specifically at the connections in Jacksonville for Tampa and St. Petersburg. After a nearly twelve-hundred-mile overnight run, they expected that passengers would be able to make connections scheduled to depart fifteen minutes (to Tampa) and five minutes (to St. Petersburg) after the scheduled arrival of the train. A very tightly scheduled arrival, at that--the South Wind averaged over 52 miles an hour between Chicago and Jacksonville including all stops and steam engine changes.
A five minute connection. After twelve hundred miles and twenty-three hours. That isn't even enough time to change engines! And this isn't just some coincidence between schedules; it appears in the South Wind's timetable as an official connection and apparently was booked and sold on a routine basis. And June 1941 is six months after the debut of the train and its siblings (City of Miami, Dixie Flagler); by then the various roads had enough actual operating experience to know basically what to expect in the way of on-time performance. And in order to keep offering it, they must have made this tight connection more often than not.
Five minutes. To someone like me who has grown up with Amtrak, that boggles the mind. How in the world did we ever come so far--in the WRONG direction--so fast?
Posted by train lady (Member # 3920) on :
David, I would have to add to your "joys of Asheville" Carl Sandburg;s home just outside the city,the beautiful waterfalls, in city restaurants and artist galleries. There is just about every type of craft. We ate at an excellent mid east retaurant one night and were entertained by a terrific belly dancer. Also I am told that it is an ideal retirement place because of all the services offered.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
Train Lady,
How could I have forgotten Carl Sandburg's home in Flat Rock? One of my co-workers has a sister who, as a college student, worked for Carl Sandburg helping sort and catalog his collections of stuff.
I find it interesting that his house has been left more or less as it was the day he died. Nearly forty years later and it's as if the poet might return to his typewriter at any moment.
Mr. Bowen -
I am really enjoying your streamliner website. Is there any chance at some point you could add a link to a period photograph of each train you are documenting? The Louisville & Nashville streamlined one of their steam locomotives (seems like it might have been #295) and painted it tuscan red to match the cars on the South Wind. This locomotive was assigned exclusively to the South Wind while on L&N rails. A photo of this locomotive blasting out of Louisville would be a nice illustration of the 1941 South Wind.
Posted by ehbowen (Member # 4317) on :
quote:Originally posted by notelvis: Mr. Bowen -
I am really enjoying your streamliner website. Is there any chance at some point you could add a link to a period photograph of each train you are documenting? The Louisville & Nashville streamlined one of their steam locomotives (seems like it might have been #295) and painted it tuscan red to match the cars on the South Wind. This locomotive was assigned exclusively to the South Wind while on L&N rails. A photo of this locomotive blasting out of Louisville would be a nice illustration of the 1941 South Wind.
You know, Mr. Pressley, that's an excellent idea. I'm not sure that I want to get into serious picture hosting, but a link to a resource such as RailPictures.net (where I found the image of the Texas Chief I use in my site logo) shouldn't be difficult. I was thinking, anyway, of putting in some of the items that are already in the Guide, such as the 2 full page advertisement for the Silver Meteor in the SAL section of the June 1941 Guide. Possibly a few buttons at the bottom of the navigation bar on each timetable page, labeled "Photo Gallery" or some such?
Let me work on it. Might take a while before you see results; right now I'm wanting to concentrate on filling up the blank pages in my "concourse". I'd also like to do a for-real help page for those who may not be experienced at reading a railroad timetable. So it may sit on the back burner a while, but I do think that it would eventually be a worthwhile addition. Thanks.
Posted by Mr. Toy (Member # 311) on :
1. Desert Wind. Maybe extend it north of Salt Lake City to Boise or Coeur d'Alene.
2. Pioneer.
3. I concur with Palmland's suggestion for the Front Range Flyer. There needs to be another north-south route between the west coast and the midwest, through Denver.
4. Personal fantasy: The 49er, from Reno to Monterey via Sacramento-Oakland-San Jose. Two major tourist destinations at the endpoints with a major urban customer base in between.
5. Extend the California Zephyr to LA as an overnight train. California's passenger rail associations have been advocating that for quite awhile.
You'll notice a distinct western bias here. Apologies to the rest of the country.
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
Some great suggestions: I will definitely have to agree with bringing back the Pioneer and Desert Wind. Whatever happened to the suggestion, at one time, to combine the Pioneer and Desert Wind as a loop from LA, Las Vegas, Utah, and Portland? I would like to see the Pioneer from Portland to Pocatello, down to Ogen then up to Wyoming and over to Cheyenne, and finally down to Denver. How about a branch from Pocatello to Yellowstone?
It would be nice to have the Cascades go through from Portland to Seattle to Vancouver, BC. It also would be nice for a morning Cascade out of Vancouver, instead of 6PM. How about a Cascade from Eugene down to Sacramento, and all-daylight as per the old Shasta route along Highway 5 through Grants Pass, Medford, Mt Shasta, etc.
I like the Palmland suggestion for a connection between El Paso, Albuquerque, Trinidad, & Denver, and Cheyenne. How about on to Casper, Billings, and Havre to meet up with the EB?
And a final Amtrak Fantasy Camp suggestion, how about bringing back the old Northern Pacific route from the Dakotas down to Billings, Bosemann, Butte, Missoula, and over to Spokane..then either to Seattle or from Spokane down to Pasco and Portland? Maybe even a branch down from Livingston or Bozeman to the northern entrance of Yellowstone, as in the old days.
Well, I can dream, can't I?
Richard
Posted by TwinStarRocket (Member # 2142) on :
I believe there are no good rail connections to Havre or Coeur d'Alene from the south. But running a shuttle across the Columbia River to connect the Pioneer to the Empire Builder would get you there.
Grand Forks to Winnipeg would be nice. Is the old Santa Fe line from Flagstaff to Phoenix still in good shape? There is a UP line from the transcon to El Paso through Alamogordo, NM that still runs fast freights and is scenic. That could be a fast route to Tucson and Phoenix from the midwest.
Posted by 20thCenturyLimited (Member # 1108) on :
It's never made sense to me that there is no Chicago-Atlanta-Orlando-Miami train. That seems to be a big gap in the system.
However, I'd most like to see more than anything else, an overnight SAN JOAQUIN train (with sleeping cars) between Sacramento and Los Angeles, with train service all the way to L.A. There could also be a section from SFO/OAK/EMY - Los Angeles.
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
My wish would be for Amtrak to lease/buy/restore 1 or 2 steam engines...Maybe the only 2 remaining f1 sister engines 975 and 982 or maybe Daylight. Run steamengines on point maybe twice a month on different LD trains.
Posted by 20thCenturyLimited (Member # 1108) on :
quote:Originally posted by gp35: My wish would be for Amtrak to lease/buy/restore 1 or 2 steam engines...Maybe the only 2 remaining f1 sister engines 975 and 982 or maybe Daylight. Run steamengines on point maybe twice a month on different LD trains.
What practical purpose would that serve? How would that improve service? How would that facilitate a new route?
Posted by mr williams (Member # 1928) on :
I am a Brit who has been contributing to this forum for nearly five years but I never take part in threads of a "political" nature and rarely into those with even a tenous quasi-political link (because how you choose to run your country is none of my business)so I hope you'll forgive me if I have my two cents worth on this occasion.
We all look back with rose-tinted glasses at former days and convince ourselves how wonderful they were - it is human nature. In the UK we lost over a third of our passenger railways in little more than a decade and now we look at gridlocked roads, high gas prices and urban smog and say "why ever did they shut the railways" but the truth is that they cost a fortune to run and the stark fact is that nobody was using them. Only last week I saw a documentary in which a railway worker from the 1960s admitted that the trains were empty.
20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing.
You have just had a change of government and possibly the new electees will have a diffent view to the outgoing legislators. But just be warned that this is not always the case - the plan to axe so many of the railways in the UK was brought in by a Convervative government. Within eighteen months Labour were re-elected and the rail lobby said "hooray" as the plans were still being opposed and fought locally and many of the lines were still open but apart from saving one or two politically sensitive routes that passed through marginal wards they did nothing to reverse the legislation and far more railways closed under the new Labour government who had opposed the legislation than under the Conservatives who had proposed it! The cuts of 1979, and the demise of the Desert Wind and The Pioneer came under Democratic Presidents, remember.
It is very easy to forget that the Desert Wind, which you would think would have been a cast-iron safe strategic route (LA to Chicago via Denver) was axed because passenger numbers had fallen to absolutely ridiculously low numbers. On the Sunset Ltd I talked to the cafe car attendant, a 20-year Amtrak veteran, who used to work the Desert Wind, and he said that on one trip there were just ELEVEN passengers on board when the train left LA. If it was restored as a branch just as far as Las Vegas then yes, I think it could generate sustainable and justifiable numbers, especially if it was a high-speed route of some sort. But what makes you think it would be any more successful now between LVS and SLC then it was before?
I've always believed that Any Amtrak expansion should be based on enhancing its credilility. I think medium distance "city pairs" are the immediate way forward. I know we are looking at separate issues when you look at things like distances and densities of population but in the UK it would be unthinkable for there to be no train service between major cities like Manchester and Birmingham or if cities the size of Sheffield or Bristol had no trains at all or just one train a day. My local branch line halt gets more trains in a day than Houston gets in a month!
Therefore my short-term Top 5 wishlist would be two trains a day each way between:
1. Los Angeles and San Francisco 2. Los Angeles and Phoenix 3. Los Angeles and Las Vegas 4. Dallas and Houston 5. Houston and New Orleans
If you looked at changing/extending existing routes on a best-coverage-for-minimum-cost basis then I would consider:
1. Re-routing the Zephyr through Des Moines and extending it from Emeryville to Los Angeles 2. Re-routing the SW Chief through Wichita and Amarillo 3. Re-routing the Sunset from Houston through Dallas and west Texas (part of the Meridian Crescent plan, I think it was called)
and if any long distance routes were to be developed or re-instated, I think that Chicago to Florida or Denver to Texas should take priority.
You then have to look at issues such as Columbus, Tulsa and Nashville and other major conurbations without passenger rail.
Make no mistake that the outlook for ALL forms of public transport is stronger and more positive at the moment than it has been for decades, but money will be limited and will have to be spent wisely and for the best return. If that means building a short-distance commuter line instead of restoring The Pioneer then I'm afraid that's the choice you'll have to make, because if you really want to make a difference your officials have to change their entire mindset as to the rail industry.
Amtrak gets along on around $1 billion dollars a year. You need probably 10 times that to replace and improve the rolling stock and 50 or 100 times that to put the infrastructure right but what a wonderful carrot to offer the freight railroads - we will give you a massive capital injection of Federal money to update/improve/double track whatever you need, but there's one condition: you must allow Amtrak full, unfettered and priority access to your routes.
If I was a freight stockholder I might think that an excellent offer!
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
quote:Originally posted by 20thCenturyLimited:
quote:Originally posted by gp35: My wish would be for Amtrak to lease/buy/restore 1 or 2 steam engines...Maybe the only 2 remaining f1 sister engines 975 and 982 or maybe Daylight. Run steamengines on point maybe twice a month on different LD trains.
What practical purpose would that serve? How would that improve service? How would that facilitate a new route?
It would increase passenger numbers. It would increase interest. Increasing numbers and interest leads to an increase in routes.
Posted by 20thCenturyLimited (Member # 1108) on :
quote:Originally posted by gp35:
quote:Originally posted by 20thCenturyLimited:
quote:Originally posted by gp35: My wish would be for Amtrak to lease/buy/restore 1 or 2 steam engines...Maybe the only 2 remaining f1 sister engines 975 and 982 or maybe Daylight. Run steamengines on point maybe twice a month on different LD trains.
What practical purpose would that serve? How would that improve service? How would that facilitate a new route?
It would increase passenger numbers. It would increase interest. Increasing numbers and interest leads to an increase in routes.
No it wouldn't. Passengers do not care what engine is pulling the train, except for a railfan interested in old fashioned steam engines.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
Mr. Williams,
Valid points and your post is well-taken. Of the routes I suggest, I'm afraid that none are likely to return....except for perhaps a link to Asheville with the NCDOT behind it. The next most likely would be Los Angeles to Las Vegas only.
Regardless......we'll take even small advances at this point!
As for the other debate - I would rather Amtrak run it's passenger trains well than get distracted by the incredible expense of running a steam program. I certainly would not mind if one of the several large restored steam locomotives still existant showed up on the point of an Amtrak train every now and then BUT Amtrak has no business trying to maintain steam on it's own.
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
quote:Originally posted by 20thCenturyLimited:
quote:Originally posted by gp35:
quote:Originally posted by 20thCenturyLimited:
quote:Originally posted by gp35: My wish would be for Amtrak to lease/buy/restore 1 or 2 steam engines...Maybe the only 2 remaining f1 sister engines 975 and 982 or maybe Daylight. Run steamengines on point maybe twice a month on different LD trains.
What practical purpose would that serve? How would that improve service? How would that facilitate a new route?
It would increase passenger numbers. It would increase interest. Increasing numbers and interest leads to an increase in routes.
No it wouldn't. Passengers do not care what engine is pulling the train, except for a railfan interested in old fashioned steam engines.
Yes it would. Rail travel outside the NEC is a novelty. Steam trains today are novelties. Amtrak suffers because they too refuse to think outside the box. You know what I mean.
Posted by delvyrails (Member # 4205) on :
mr williams has put us all to shame. It just shows that the farther a person is from a "problem", often the surer that person's estimate of the sitution is.
Maybe it would be a good idea if every improvement offered here should have to include two items: the suggested upfront cost of starting the service and the associated annual extra net operating cost for Amtrak.
Posted by RRCHINA (Member # 1514) on :
Amen to delvyrails analysis.
Let's be practical rail fans!!!!
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
When you make a wish, you don't ask for the cost. That is why it's a wish. Geeez, will they ban dreaming next.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
Here are a few practical comments:
As California increased the number of trains on its state funded routes, the number of passengers per train increased.
It has also be well said that increased connectivity increases ridership. That is why such things as Twin Cities to Texas with connectivity both ways in Kansas City is important. Similarly, a north-south Denver to El Paso with connectivity at Albuquerque is useful.
Yes, bot of these would require some track upgrades. Even as the CRIP was failing, they still scheduled Minneapolis to Kansas City in 10 hours. Whatever needs doing to run at least that fast, and faster would be better, should be done. South of KC it would not be the same route. Maybe use the MKT line, or the BNSF through Tulsa (former Frisco), or Oklahoma City (former ATSF). This should split at Dallas or Ft. Worth into Houston and San Antonio sections.
While we are talking Kansas City, how about Omaha-KC-Memphis-Birmingham-Atlanta-Jacksonville, or Birmingham-Montgomery-Tallahassee-Jacksonville. This could also form a Chicago to Florida, vut via Memphis instead of Atlanta. Yes, we are talking some track money again, but if we can not at least approach a normal drive with meal stops time, it is probably not worth doing.
Posted by Geoff M (Member # 153) on :
quote:Originally posted by gp35: Yes it would. Rail travel outside the NEC is a novelty. Steam trains today are novelties. Amtrak suffers because they too refuse to think outside the box. You know what I mean.
20th Century is correct. Few people ride the train for a novelty; even fewer - myself as a train fan included - care whether it's a steam engine, a diesel, or an electric loco.
If there was that much of a market, then somebody would have niched it by now.
Geoff M.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
quote:Originally posted by Geoff M: [QUOTE] [qb]
If there was that much of a market, then somebody would have niched it by now.
Geoff M.
Actually there is a niche market for trains pulled by steam locomotives - The former Rio Grande narrow guages in Colorado are very popular. The Tennessee Valley Railway Museum sells out it's all-day Autumn Leaf Specials from Chattanooga, TN to Summerville, GA every weekend in October and well into November. Numerous other tourist railroads do very well when their steam locomotives are up and running.
What is missing are mainline excursions pulled by the largest locomotives. We don't see those in the south anymore since Norfolk Southern pulled the plug on their steam program BUT Union Pacific still has a pair of the big locomotives and then there is the Milwaukee 261 which prowls up and down the Mississippi River out of the Twin Cities several times a year.
These are what they are and the steam operations are something I find to be a great deal of fun. However, it's not a niche Amtrak is poised to capture nor is that a niche Amtrak should be expected to capture. Historic steam operations are outside the realm of Amtrak's mission - providing a safe, economical, and more or less reliable transportation to those of us who, for whatever reason, chose to use it.
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
The really sad part is Amtrak agrees with the anti-creative thinking. As a result, Amtrak never improves.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
quote:Originally posted by gp35: The really sad part is Amtrak agrees with the anti-creative thinking. As a result, Amtrak never improves.
There are several documented examples of steam locomotives pulling Amtrak trains in the 1970's and 1980's. It's not like it hasn't been tried.
I agree with you that steam locomotives are entertaining and I agree with you that they generate interest in railroad operations. I hope that we will always have historical organizations to keep those steam locomotives operating.
My only disagreement is that Amtrak (and the Federal dollars behind Amtrak) should be spent on things other than maintaining steam locomotives. Clean, attractive modern equipment (like Talgo trains with their super-huge windows running through Pennsylvania or up the Hudson River) would go further than a steam locomotive in attracting new riders.
I wouldn't quite say that Amtrak not operating a steam locomotive is evidence of a lack of creativity on Amtrak's part.
Posted by Geoff M (Member # 153) on :
quote:Originally posted by notelvis:
quote:Originally posted by Geoff M: [QUOTE] [qb]
If there was that much of a market, then somebody would have niched it by now.
Geoff M.
Actually there is a niche market for trains pulled by steam locomotives - [...]What is missing are mainline excursions pulled by the largest locomotives.
Sorry, that's what I meant. I've been on a couple of tourist railroads myself, but you very rarely hear of a mainline steam train.
Mind you, steam engines are not good for hotbox detectors!
Geoff M.
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
First, Amtrak need not to own or maintain. Rent a steamer. I didn't say full time service. I said twice a month on a different LD route.
Second, everytime an excursion steam train run, ppl line the tracks or meet the train at a stop. It amazes me how many of you believe not 1 person extra would ride Amtrak on the 2 runs per month. These ppl want to see the train from the tracks but nooooo one wants to ride. Makes perfect sense to you all.
Third, I could write a book on Amtrak lack creativity. Amtrak failure is due to not thinking outside the box.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
quote:Originally posted by gp35: First, Amtrak need not to own or maintain. Rent a steamer. I didn't say full time service. I said twice a month on a different LD route.
Second, everytime an excursion steam train run, ppl line the tracks or meet the train at a stop. It amazes me how many of you believe not 1 person extra would ride Amtrak on the 2 runs per month. These ppl want to see the train from the tracks but nooooo one wants to ride. Makes perfect sense to you all.
Third, I could write a book on Amtrak lack creativity. Amtrak failure is due to not thinking outside the box.
Hi GP35,
Before I start disagreeing with you all over again, I do think that you and I are closer in what we like and in our frustration over Amtrak has not done well enough.
I don't disagree that a steam train would sell extra tickets on that particular run. It would. Just not to me! I personally would fly in, rent a car, and chase the locomotive taking photographs rather than ride the train. In other words, I would be one of the people lining the tracks! I've already ridden most of the Amtrak routes and you don't get to enjoy the engine so much from on the train.
Issues with using leased steam is that those locomotives are most often maintained by volunteer organizations. That means the host railroads are going to throw a fit over liability issues. As Geoff notes, that would play havoc with the hotbox detectors. That's before you even get started on the cost to maintain the locomotive. The more you use it the more it costs and no one has pockets that deep when you consider Amtrak and the handful of historical societies which have their hands on operable large steam locomotives.
Posted by RussM (Member # 3627) on :
I'll add my two cents to the wish list of unlikely possibilities. I would like to see Auto Train service over the route of the Southwest Chief from Chicago to a terminal somewhere east of Los Angeles.
Posted by Geoff M (Member # 153) on :
quote:Originally posted by RussM: I'll add my two cents to the wish list of unlikely possibilities. I would like to see Auto Train service over the route of the Southwest Chief from Chicago to a terminal somewhere east of Los Angeles.
Hmm, maybe that should be train number 66? And called the Will Rogers Express?
Geoff M.
Posted by delvyrails (Member # 4205) on :
On 7/6/92, Amtrak issued a press release citing its study of new or reformed routes with "regional balance", seven short haul and 13 long haul:
1.Minn-Des Moines-KC, $0.8m annual operating subsidy 2. extend Mo. Mule from KC to Omaha, $1.0m 3. NY-Allentown-Hbg, $1.1m 4. Chi-Madison, $1.5m 5. Chi-Green Bay, $2.7m
1. extend Sunset to Miami, $1.1m 2. branch of Lake Shore, Clev-Col-Cin, $2.4m 3. triweekly Chi-Oklahoma-Dallas, $3.3m 4. daily Jax-New Orleans, $6.1m 5. daily Chi-Oklahoma-Dallas, $8.4m 6. NY-Charlottesville-Roanoke-Chattanooga-Atl, $9.6m 7. Denver-Dallas, $11.5m 8. Vancouver, BC-LA, $12.8m 9. reroute Pioneer via central Iowa and Wyoming, $14.2m 10. restore Chi-Helena-Sea, $15.4m 11. route one NY-Florida train via Charlotte and Columbia, $20.3m 12. Chi-Atl-Florida, $20.8m 13. Denver-Cheyenne-Billings-Helena-Spokane, $24.4m (figures rounded and in 1992 $)
Ther was no estimate of start-up costs nor revelation of how routes were chosen to study. Of course, this was before track capacity potentially became a major issue.
The conclusion is that some routes would be relatively inexpensive (especialy those with a lot of passenger revenue or useful connections to encourage new business), while others (long runs with little intermedate populations) would be costly.
It's much more than drawing lines on a map. Now if we presumed an amplified budget of x million and we could get more variations studied, we could organize a practical program for Amtrak revision and extension. Better than armchair dreaming! we could get
Posted by 20th Century (Member # 2196) on :
RussM: I like the idea of an auto train from Chicago to Los Angeles. Would it be possible to make tourist stops along the route so passengers can take their car and sightsee then catch another auto train a couple of days later to continue the journey west?
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
Another AutoTrain route is a good idea. Chicago is a likely origin, but I think the Denver area is a better destination than LA. I read that for those who leave the highway for the train, the 18 hour duration of the current AutoTrain to FL is about the maximum those highway converts will tolerate.
Certainly Denver has year round attractions with the mountains and skiing and a drive from Chicago to Denver is pretty boring unless you ejoy the wide open spaces as I do.
I had forgotten about Amtrak's '92 analysis that 'delvrails' reminds us of - thanks. Hard to believe my favorite - Chicago to FL ranks near the worst in cost. Amtrak may be heading the right way by exploring a through connection from Chicago-New Orleans on the City of NO to a NOL to Orlando train as reported in Trains magazine this month.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
Yes, now I also remember the 1992 analysis. There are some things in there that seem strange, both then and now. Like, why was extending the Sunset to Miami only 1.1 million yet daily Jacksonville to New Orleans over 6 million? Something has got to be wrong there.
Posted by 20thCenturyLimited (Member # 1108) on :
A) This thread is about new ROUTES
B) Passengers don't give a *bleep* about steam engines except a niche group of rail fans, and not even many fans of rail travel in general (myself included) care.
C) It would be like suggesting that the airlines go back to props. Steam engines are obsolete.
D) Steam engines on Amtrak trains would be complete folly (to put it politely). Leave the steam excursions to the museums. Amtrak has a job as a real transportation carrier to attend to.
Posted by Beacon Hill (Member # 4431) on :
I'm going to nominate 5 routes, with a heavy western bias: 1. Seattle to Whistler, BC 2. San Francisco to Los Angeles 3. Denver to Albuquerque 4. service to Yellowstone National Park, perhaps with a seasonal auto train from So. Cal or the Midwest? 5. a high(er) speed route between Chicago and New York that doesn't require an overnight stay onboard the train.
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
A steamengine on ld trains will have those trains sold out everytime the steamengine on point is announced. End of story.
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
Going back to earlier posts, I like CG96's suggestion for 2 trains, in each direction, on a single day for the major LD trains (Builder, Zephyr, & SW Chief). I would even go for having the 2nd train run 3x/week. It would be much easier to stop at varous interesting points, explore, stay overnight in local lodging, and get back on the train (headed in the same direction) the next day at a reasonable time.
I like Mr. Toy's suggestion concerning the extension of the Zephyr to LA. I believe it is about 12 hrs from Emeryville to LA..If they started in LA at 9PM, it should get into Emeryville, as per the existing schedule, for departure at 9:15 AM. The downside would be that passengers, out of LA, would miss a lot of the scenery up the Calif. coast. However, it would be great for us in the south bay area to be able to board the Zephyr without having to first drive to Martinez or Davis/Sacramento and leave the car. The Capitol Corridor trains to Sacramento for Zephyr connection is another possibility, but it still wouldn't work for passengers living south of San Jose.
Richard
Posted by train lady (Member # 3920) on :
In addition to an auto train from Chi to Denver, the return of the Pioneer and a train from DC to Asheville I'd love to see a train frome DC all the way up the coast of Maine.
Posted by Big Merl (Member # 3251) on :
Well here go my practical and not so practical ideas, in no certain order.
1) Extend the KC Mule to Omaha
2) High speed Tijuana to Vancouver. Because hey, one may need to buy some Tequila in the morning and get the munchies for some Poutine.
3) Extend the high speed track south of DC to Miami via Charlotte and Atlanta
4) Soo Special: Chicago to Sault Ste Marie via Green Bay then north to a timed platform meeting with Via (Hey, I may be the only one, but I want this train)
5) High speed Milwaukee-Chicago-Indy with spurs to Louisville and Cincy
6) High speed Chicago-St Louis-Omaha-Denver (Figure once you reach Omaha the cost has to go down per mile to reach Denver, why not?)
7) high speed between LA and Las Vegas using maglev. Why maglev? Mostly because the general public would view that as futuristic and hey, these are dreams, not what is really gonna happen.
8) DC to LA w/intermediary stops in Morgantown, Charlestown, Lexington, Louisville, St Louis, KC, Omaha, Denver, SLC, Las Vegas
9) Denver to San Antonio with intermediary stops in Pueblo, Amarillo, Lubbock, Midland/Odessa
10) Reroute the CZ along my new high speed route through Missouri, just because I am a Nebraskan and don't like Iowa. Posted by train lady (Member # 3920) on :
#s 4,6,and,8 sound very good to me!!!
Posted by Mr. Toy (Member # 311) on :
quote:Originally posted by yukon11: I like Mr. Toy's suggestion concerning the extension of the Zephyr to LA. .... However, it would be great for us in the south bay area....
I've often wondered if the LA extension isn't pracitcal, why not terminate the CZ in San Jose instead of Emeryville? That would open up a significantly larger customer base, and may even invite some business travel between Silicon Valley and similar tech industries in Denver. San Jose is also a short bus ride from the Monterey Bay area tourist destinations, for those travelers coming from the heartland.
Posted by irish1 (Member # 222) on :
big merl i also love #4 it would probably go right through my town. merry christmas
Posted by CG96 (Member # 1408) on :
I think I would also add in Saint Paul - Omaha, NE, and MSP - Saint Louis, MSP - Duluth, MN/Superior WI, in addition to MSP to KC. Another requirement would be to have at least twice per day service in both directions.
Posted by delvyrails (Member # 4205) on :
See Trains magazine, February, 1962 for its orginal article entitiled "Questions and answers about AUTOTRAIN" for a railcar and operating concept that was intended to allow autos to be driven off and on the trains at intermediate points.
The original carrier car design shown in that article allowed autos to be driven laterally on and off the railcars at points en route having special two-level platforms beside the through track. That concept avoided the need to switch the train en route. The current Amtrak carrier car can only be loaded or unloaded at the end of a string of cars.
Perhaps the best idea would be to use the Amtrak standard end loaded cars to begin a long distance service, then to buy some railcars of the lateral loading kind to allow the service to be expanded to key intermedite points.
Posted by 20th Century (Member # 2196) on :
John, Thanks for the info on Autotrain.
Posted by UncleBuck44 (Member # 2049) on :
Well, you all know what I'm wishing for. More routes through St. Louis. A new and much improved station will open up in July of 2007 and I'm hoping it attracts something new.
I like Big Merl's idea of the LA to DC train going through STL.
I'd also propose a STL to Springfield, MO train and a reroute of the City of New Orleans through STL, but that seems impossible.
Posted by Big Merl (Member # 3251) on :
quote:Originally posted by UncleBuck44: Well, you all know what I'm wishing for. More routes through St. Louis.
I agree. If I were in charge of Amtrak and had the unlimited budget we all want, I would move most LD trains to St. Louis instead of Chicago. It seems to make more sense geographically. Probably take the unlimited budget though because I have no clue what track and ROW looks like for my maps.
I finally came up with a good name for my DC/LA route. The American Classic. Since it goes through some awesome terrain, it would feature dome cars and multiple tiers of service. My Amtrak would have some private cars for that route that you could book through amtrak.com.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
In the 50's there was a lot of cross country traffic through both Chicago and St. Louis. The settling on Chicago is part of Amtrak's put everything in one basket mindset, which was aggravated by the discontinuance of the National Limited at about the time that Conrail's track upgrading was reaching the point that its extremely poor on-time performance was becoming history. I see the sense in leaving a lot of through traffic in Chicago, but a revived National Limited providing east west service through Indinapolis and St. Louis, and how about on to Denver seems like a very good idea. The next point east of Indy could be Cleveland, Pittsburg, or Cincinatti, or all three. Why not? The main thing Amtrak suffers is lack of connectivity. We have talked a lot about a revived Chicago to Florida service, but how about a revived north south line through Cincinatti or Louisville or both to the Gulf Coast and New Orleans - say a new Pan American or a Queen and Crescent (the Southern route), or both on something like 12 hours offset timetables.
Posted by delvyrails (Member # 4205) on :
Inescapable are two facts: Chicago has the second largest U.S. metro population at 9 million, while St. Louis is well down the list--18th--with just 2.7 million. So more than three times as many trips (and three times the revenue)can be expected to and from Chicago, and there's the reasonable priority for dollar-short Amtrak.
Looking further down the metro list, number 8 sees only six trains per week. Shouldn't Houston rate higher in priority for service improvement than St Louis? And number 14, too (Phoenix)?
Posted by delvyrails (Member # 4205) on :
Sorry, LA, meant to say that CHI is "only" third.
Naturally, we in and around Philadelphia (fourth) think that a direct connection with number 3 should be a high priority.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
quote:Originally posted by delvyrails: Sorry, LA, meant to say that CHI is "only" third.
Naturally, we in and around Philadelphia (fourth) think that a direct connection with number 3 should be a high priority.
I would certainly like to see a renewed 'Broadway Limited'. That would fill the void you mention nicely.
That's the problem with a thread such as this (and I can be critical......I started it!), it's impossible to stop with only five really good ideas!
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
While we are dreaming: Phoenix: IF the passenger line west is restored, and it should be, for about the same money it can be made good for 110 mph. Throw in a second and maybe third main the rest of the way into Los Angeles, and you can have about 4 plus trains per day. There was a though, by passenger rail proponests, not the state, to have a multi train service Phoenix to Tuscon to Nogales. Sounds like a good idea and a logical extension off the LA - Phoenix.
Posted by Ira Slotkin (Member # 81) on :
One if my votes goes for a Denver - Dallas/Ft Worth connection.
I spent 6 hours at the Denver Airport Friday. My kids and their mother had confirmed reservations and seat assignments, and we still waited in mul;tiple lines from 11am to 5pm only to be told by bullhorn announcement that "If you live in Denver: Go Home. You won't get out tonight."
It was horrible. My kids 4 and 9 did great thankfully. Frontier cancelled flights for two days and has scheduled about a dozen DEN-DFW flights per day. That's easily 1500 people per day. W/O counting other airlines flights. Far be it from me to determine what makes a route worth it. But we are dreaming here. I'd like to se e an evening departure from Denver, to allow folks from the East bound CZ, presumably arriving on time (remember it's a dream), switch through sleeper and coach cars.
And adding to the collection of TrainKu:
Snowbound, winter nap, Dreaming: a cozy compartment, Riding the Zephyr west
Under it's snow blanket, City silent and still, Trains exchange whistles
Blizzard conditions. Silently, between the snowflakes, Zephyr comes and goes.
Ira
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
Why stop in DFW. I say Denver to Galveston via DFW and Houston.
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
I really like Edmonton to Denver to DFW to Houston to Galveston.
Posted by Ira Slotkin (Member # 81) on :
Agreed, then group. Galveston it is. Light rail access from there to Corpus Christy and Padre Island National Seashore. Oh, wait. The national parks are endangered too. But that's the other thread....
Posted by travelplus (Member # 3679) on :
I would like to have some Amtrak Talgo trains from Sa San Jose down to LA with day and night trains in addition to the Coast Starlight. It would be better than a bus to Stockton train from Stockton to Bakersfield and a bus.
If they could have trains connecting with the SW Cheif etc. These trains would have better On time performance since the Starlight goes from Seattle where as this service is interstate.
They could have the Daylight and Night Owel service using the Talgo sleeping cars and Business Class Seats. You could leave San Jose at 8 PM and arrive by 6:30 or 7 in the morning. And for the day trains have one at 6 Am , 10 Am, 12 PM etc.
You could connect from Oakland on the Capitol Corridor. Or maybe they would do the service from Oakland to San Jose then to LA with stops only at salinas, San Luis Obispo Santa Barbara and LA.
Posted by Liberty Limited (Member # 4300) on :
Here's my candidate:
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
Hey Liberty Limited -
Yeah.....I like this idea.
But what I really want to know is how you managed to 'doctor' the official Amtrak timetable document! I could have a whole lot of fun if I could create such good looking timetables myself!
David
quote:Originally posted by Liberty Limited: Here's my candidate:
Posted by Liberty Limited (Member # 4300) on :
Adobe Illustrator, my friend!
It will open the PDF's on the website right up. A number of the fonts won't render properly, leaving you to devise alternates, particularly for the icons (you'll notice all are somewhat different), but once you clean up the document, and set it up right, it's not too hard to add grid spaces, create a new column, and add times.
I'd practically think creation of mock-ups like this could be an effective if not devious tool. Devise a schedule or new frequency, place it prominently, and illustrate to people: "Would you like to see the following service?!? Contact your Rep. amd Senators!"
One thing I really like about this particular one is how many things it accomplishes, creating a new ATL-WAS day train between the night spells, linking Richmond and Raliegh with Atlanta and New Orleans in one ride, creating a rather fluid corridor between Charlotte and Raleigh, and creating same day connections in NOL off the new frequency. One change I'd make in hindsight would be to depart NOL later to better cushion the connection from the Sunset, and to serve Atlanta at a more reasonable time.
Posted by Ocala Mike (Member # 4657) on :
Hello, all! After lurking on this list for weeks waiting for my password, I'm finally ready to add my two cents to this thread:
1. Restoration of the Sunset Limited route E. of New Orleans to Orlando, Tampa, and/or Miami, preferably utilizing CSX's "S" line through Ocala.
2. Daily service, New Orleans to Jacksonville.
3. Service from Chicago to Miami along the lines of the old "Royal Palm" or "South Wind."
4. Restoration of an additional Silver Service train NY to Tampa instead of the current setup where 91/92 "detour" into and out of Tampa on their runs in and out of Miami.
5. NY to Portland and Bangor, ME direct using the old "State of Maine" route bypassing Boston.
Well, after all, it is a "dream list."
Ocala Mike
Posted by Ocala Mike (Member # 4657) on :
Liberty Limited:
Love what you did with those timetables. One suggestion, though, with #'s 66 and 67, would be to shorten those "dwell times" in NYP, PHL, and WAS now that you're making true LD trains out of them. Might have to tweak departure/arrival times a bit as you hinted at.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
Welcome aboard Ocala Mike. You probably have the nicest Amtrak station with no Amtrak train in the eastern US.
I'm not yet ready to call for a third NYC-FLA train (other routes such as Chicago - Florida need service first) but I cannot understand the absence of a separate Tampa section with through sleeper splitting from the Silver Star in Jacksonville then going via Ocala and Wildwood. A separate day train could do a Tampa - Miami turn and you've got what the current Star attempts to do done better!
Of course my personal 'dream train' would be a reprise of the old 'Skyland Special'. Asheville, NC down the mountain to Spartanburg, SC and a connection to the Silver Star at Columbia. Run a through sleeper and the in-laws near Winter Park would see a lot more of me!
Liberty - I agree, no harm in having your northbound dream train operate 90 - 120 minutes later.
Posted by amtraxmaniac (Member # 2251) on :
Since we are only DREAMING people, here is my wish list. Some seem to me practical, others not. Don't laugh because I'm not as informed about what rails run through where.
1.Extend 2 San Joaquin train all the way to Las Vegas making a direct route from the Bay Area to Las Vegas via Bakersfield and Barstow. If Amtrak were to reinstate the Desert Wind-the San Joaquin can extend to Barstow and create a Direct San Joaquin connection to the Desert Wind. What if the San Joaquin were to run some Superliner equipment-say one coach and one sleeper as through cars for the Desert Wind?
2. I concur with the idea of an overnight LA to the Bay Area Train. Maybe a train that leaves around 8:30pm or 9pm and connects to the CZ up northThat Coast train can turn around late that evening connecting FROM the WB CZ and get into LA in PLENTY of time to connect to the afternoon Sunset the next day. The Layovers would be a few hours, but it would be pretty much guaranteed both directions if any of those trains run late.
3. Extend the Heartland Flyer-Oklahoma City-Tulsa-St Louis.
4. Restore Service to Phoenix. Maybe LA-Phoenix-Amarillo-Oklahoma City-Tulsa-St Louis-Chicago.
5. I love the idea of El Paso-Albuquerque-Denver! Isn't that the Rio Grande Route? That could rival the CZ and CS for scenery.
6. Dallas to New Orleans. I don't know why-just sounds good.
Posted by delvyrails (Member # 4205) on :
But why shouldn't the "Boston Crescent" follow the same route as the Crescent? The direct NS route is an hour and a third less in travel time and over a more reliable host's railroad.
If this were done, the southbound would arrive at Atlanta about 9pm instead of 10:18; and the northbound could leave Atlanta at 6:50am instead of 5:30am. These arrival and departure times would be somewhat more salable.
Posted by Liberty Limited (Member # 4300) on :
Hey Delvy and all,
I'm not at all against following the route of the Crescent for the other frequency, in fact that was my original thought. What led me to this routing was:
1) an expectation that Richmond and Raleigh were slightly more robust markets than Charlottesville and Lynchburg, 2) that offering an additional Richmond>South frequency would be desirable. 3) that offering direct service between Richmond/Raliegh to Atlanta/B'ham/New Orleans would open up new markets, 4) that existing trains 66 and 67 already go to Newport News, so maintaining the schedule as far as Richmond (where a shuttle train would then serve NPN) would result in the lowest addition of added revenue hours to the schedule. 5) routing this train would create a nice stream of convenient day frequencies on the Piedmont route.
That much said, your points make perfect sense, as I also considered that the CVS routing would: 1) add an additonal frequency to Charlottesville, which, on most days, only sees one train in each direction. 2) avoids the notorious congestion south of Richmond. 3) is faster, thus also allowing for some friendlier times at Atlanta.
Kind of a hard call to make to me.
BTW, I "adjusted" my times on the timetable, and will display a new one soon.
Posted by amtraxmaniac (Member # 2251) on :
I recognize I exceeded the wish list by one. LOL. I don't mean to be greedy.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)