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After seeing a reference to St. Paul Union Depot in a previous thread, I thought I would post this in a new thread, for anyone interested, here is an in-depth study of the proposed redevelopment of St. Paul Union Depot. It's kind of long, but I found it pretty interesting.
for anyone interested in the Twin cities, you might also want to read about the proposed "central corridor" light rail line which would also include Spud at
I also have really enjoyed checking out these railroad pictures from the 70's around the twin cities and elsewhere, Includes a lot of early Amtrak photos that won't ever be repeated like this one of the North Coast Hiawatha http://magichammer.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=642536
I know, I know, too many links, anyway, I thought the St. Paul Union Depot study was interesting to read for passenger rail people, and I hope it gets done before too long.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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Here follows a pasting of my submission regarding SPUD at the hijacked Sunset Limited thread:
Here is the only photo of "The SPUD" I could locate:
While it must be acknowledged that Minneapolis has become the "Alpha Male" of the Twin Cities, it hardly became so by measuring train stations. While the two historic stations in Mpls could hardly be considered out in the styx (as can Amtrak's), it would be hard to find a more downtown located station than that in St Paul (save maybe Grand Central in NY).
Somehow, I think it is time for a moderator around here, who would have shut that hijacked topic down.
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As I said in another thread, I have the pleasure of walking through this beautiful building twice a day on my way to work. It has been well maintained and slowly spruced up over the years. It now looks better than most these photos which were taken some years back. The front lawn is now filled with flowers in the summer months.
For me, the worst thing they did was take down the 1970 train schedule for a coffee shop menu, only a few years ago. I hope they didn't throw it away.
Since it is connected to St. Paul's expansive skyway system, all weather indoor access is available for our inclement weather.
Another item of interest in today's local news: The St. Paul Ford plant which currently builds the Ranger truck, will close soon. Among the possibilities the city is trying to lure into it is a "rail car manufacturer". This plant has it's own rail line connecting to CP and a hydroelectric plant.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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To bad the owners of the SPUD headhouse could not follow the lead of Wyndham Hotels at the Nashville Union Station. There the pre-existing train board is part of the concierge's desk. I'm sure the young women working those positions have a ready to go for the "when's the next train to Chicago?".
"One of these days", I'll stay there; Nashville is where I break Chi-Atlanta auto trips (oh those younger days when it was no big deal to drive it straight through) and one is on the docket for Second Quarter travel this year. But properties such as Courtyard and Hampton on West End near Vanderbilt U have much easier access to the Interstate - as well as a somewhat more palatable room rate.
musicfan Member # 4673
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Interesting to hear the news of ideas for maintaining a rail-served business at the Ford plant site, I was assuming it would go to residential development exclusively. Don't want to pollute a St. Paul thread too much, but since it is about the "twin" cities, I thought this linked photo was a really fantastic picture of the Amtrak North Coast Hiawatha on James J. Hill's Great Northern Stone Arch Bridge over the Mississippi River with the Minneapolis skyline in the background. In fact I set it as my desktop wallpaper for the time being. http://magichammer.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=620203 The date on the picture is 12/31/1973, so the IDS tower must have been pretty new at that time. You also can see the washburn Gold Medal Flour mill on the left, which I think was already abandoned at this time. The flour mill has now been turned into a nice museum to go through The stone arch bridge is used for a pedestrian walkway and bikeway, and those tour-bus troley things. The new guthrie theater building built in the last few years would be just out of sight to the left of the flour mill with the open-air never-ending bridge obversation deck over-looking the River. Too bad there still aren't trains to watch from that great view!! It still is a pretty spectacular view, with St. Anthony falls and the lock and dam, and with the stone arch bridge now lit up at night.
With the rails being removed from James Hill's masterpiece, I would have to give St. Paul the nod for intersting rail bridges with the robert street drawbridge. I think it was orginally CGW. Here are a couple of views of that.
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Thanks for all the photos. The Robert Street lift bridge is still in operation, now the northern terminus of the UP "spine line" running to KC. It's previous owners may have been also Rock Island and/or Minneapolis and St. Louis. It is a block from where I work, and I have often seen UP freights waiting for the Empire Builder to pass before entering the bridge. The UP tracks cross Canadian Pacific (ex Soo/Milwaukee), and CP must not want to help UP slow Amtrak down.
I especially appreciate the first Milwaukee RR photo in the first post. This particular double track crossed the entire city of Minneapolis in a trough where a bridge was built for almost every street in the city. Now abandoned, it has been turned into a Greenway running about 8 miles from the river to scenic Lake Calhoun with only one busy street crossing. Down in a trough out of the wind, you can now cross the city by bicycle faster than car (it was tested). It is my favorite bike route and I can be found riding the entire distance about 5 times a week in the summer. It was the route of the Olympian Hiawatha to Seattle.
musicfan Member # 4673
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a slight correction. I've noticed in viewing more of the photo galleries that I linked to, that the dates are all listed as 12/31 for every picture. Perhaps the photographer had slides in boxes labled for "years" like 1974 or 73, but didn't have the exact date. Not that it makes any difference, just wanted to correct the misinformation I posted. To make this post worth anything, here are a couple of more cool photos from that site. Both 1974. Soo Line F3A getting a bath at Shoreham. http://magichammer.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=640344
And an SDP40F locomotive led Amtrak Empire Builder along the Mississippi leaving the Minneapolis Great Northern station. I think I see at least 3 dome cars!! http://magichammer.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=640365 That station wasn't preserved, but as many of you know can still visit the Milwaukee Road depot in Minneapolis which is now a hotel, and even has a ice skating rink underneath the old train shed. It still says "Milwaukee Road" (and I think courtyard by marriott) on the clock tower, but I notice from this old picture on their website, that the station also boasted signs for Rock Island and Soo Line on the clock tower in addition to the Milwaukee. http://www.thedepotminneapolis.com/newSite/history.asp
As far as current and future Amtrak trains, I sure hope they keep and even add to the lounge and dome cars if that ever becomes a financial possibility. Even on relatively short corridor day trips, the idea of not being tied to your seat like you are on a bus or a plane, or even while driving your car is a huge plus in my opinion. Even if a lounge does not have big windows, I think having more than enough tables and cushy chairs for all fare classes is an essential part of train travel, even more so than what kind of food they are or are not serving.
notelvis Member # 3071
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Musicfan,
Great pictures - thank you for sharing.
Given that I grew up seeing Southern Railway passenger trains behind FP-7's and E-8's, I was not at first a fan of the Amtrak SDP-40's with those big flat red noses.
I did always feel like Amtrak's red-nosed paint scheme fit the SDP-40's much better than the older 'covered-wagon' units though.
Over time I came to like the big SDP-40's and missed them when they went away before their time. These pictures bring those memories back. The diesels MARC uses on their DC area commuter trains remind me of the big SDP's when viewed head-on though.
Twinstar, to save me from reading all sixty some pages of the report you posted, How serious are the efforts to bring Amtrak back to downtown St. Paul? I, for one, would love to see that station used as a train station again.
musicfan Member # 4673
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I'll chime in, Like anything else, SPUD redevelopment plans are serious as long as its someone elses money. Everybody wants their piece of federal money. Seriously, I'm not sure it would all go through, but it seems very intertwined to the "Central Corridor" light rail planning which is a good thing, since its' not only tied to Amtrak or pie in the sky high-speed rail types of things.The LRT I think is pretty much an absolute sure thing after the acknowledged major success of the Hiawatha LRT between downtown Minneapolis and the airport and mall of america. It's only a matter of how long it takes, which, of course, will probably stretch out over more years than everyone hopes. They are still discussing the exact line the Light rail will take and where the stations will be and such. One of the latest things under discussion is to have it make a loop in and around downtown st. paul, instead of just one line heading to SPUD. I think that would be a great plus. The LRT line would connect to the existing hiawatha LRT around the current Cedar-riverside or "West bank" station, so the same track and stations would be used in downtown minneapolis. For some reason, there has been a proposal to build a tunnel under the U-M for the Central Corridor. I am with the crowd that sees that as a bit of overkill and awful expensive, it could be built without the tunnel and serve the same area, but who knows what will happen.
As far as what's currently actually happening, there is digging going on in Minneapolis to move the utility lines so that the existing hiawatha light rail can be extended 4 blocks or something to serve the approved new Twins baseball stadium, and connect with the also going ahead "northstar" commuter rail service which uses the BNSF line towards St. Cloud. To start it is only going about 40 miles to Big lake. The commuter rail station will be at track level, with the LRT station and stadium entrances built on top of it.
TwinStarRocket Member # 2142
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David, it was musicfan who posted the report, but I enjoyed skimming over it. What I know is that some local congress critters obtained $50 million in federal funds to begin planning (and beginning to implement?) this transit hub project. A light rail line will connect the depot to downtown Minneapolis in the next few years. Commuter rail along the Amtrak/BNSF route southwest to Hastings and Red Wing will be next. I was pleased to see long term parking will be made available for Amtrak patrons. It will be multimodal and include Greyhound, local transit, Amtrak, and hopefully HSR to Chi. All these plans are many years into the future. Much like New Mexico's Rail Runner, an almost dormant piece of rail history fits perfectly into future transit needs.
A key factor was that the main post office, who owns all the ex-depot buildings and land except for the headhouse, plans a move to the burbs soon. This means the giant concourse over the former passenger tracks and all the needed land adjacent to Amtrak's current route can be had for a song. The lot I currently park in was where the mainlines split into the many tracks for the depot.
In today's local news, I just read that reinstating Amtrak to Duluth is in the works, and officials involved with the St. Paul depot project are upset that the proposed route (same as the late Amtrak North Star used) goes to Minneapolis, possibly not using the St. Paul station. They talk about upgrading the Duluth track to 80mph. Interstate 35 to Duluth is nearing gridlock. Other rail routes would be too expensive to rebuild or upgrade.
I say have it continue on to St. Paul after Minneapolis, then right on to KC and Houston and call it the Twin Star Rocket! Elegant diners and dome cars. When I am king.
TwinStarRocket Member # 2142
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Music fan wrote: "For some reason, there has been a proposal to build a tunnel under the U-M for the Central Corridor. I am with the crowd that sees that as a bit of overkill and awful expensive, it could be built without the tunnel and serve the same area, but who knows what will happen."
Musicfan, I agree wholeheartedly the tunnel is overkill, if not stupid. There is a perfectly good existing rail bridge over the Mississippi just north of Washington Ave that connects to the trough through Dinkytown. That trough, now empty, was the passenger route to the Stone Arch Bridge. It would run by the door of all the University stadiums and could run along current tracks to Amtrak's station, which would make a great intermodal Midway hub if Amtrak moves to St. Paul.
All vacant land in ideal locations. Way less money. Less traffic congestion. Faster. Room for parking. I would lose the only pleasant bike route to the river, so I don't propose this lightly.
notelvis Member # 3071
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My apologies TwinStar. I misremembered and didn't bother going back to the top of the thread to check my sources.
TwinStarRocket Member # 2142
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No apology needed David. I just didn't want to see musicfan not get the credit for all the neat stuff he found. I was not even aware such a report existed.
Of course I get carried away with rare local rail news that is close to home. We are just a one train a day town with a big Amshack sitting in an ugly remote area.
HopefulRailUser Member # 4513
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TwinStar - about that big Amshack in the ugly remote area. Would the Days Inn University be an OK place to stay after coming in on the WB EB? It seems to be fairly close to the station but I hope not in the "ugly" area. It is on University Ave. It will be late at night per EB arrival times. Sure wish I was coming into the neat depot you all are discussing.
TwinStarRocket Member # 2142
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Vicki, since I live near Amtrak MSP, I can tell you everything you need to know about the area -except what a motel is like. Days Inn looks nice from the outside, and has a restaurant and a courtesy van to Amtrak, only about 2-3 blocks away.
"Ugly" in this case means you are in a commercial area of plain office buildings and warehouses, quite unlike the rest of this end of town that consists of majestic old homes, friendly parks and pleasant neighborhoods. Remote means there is not much people do in this area but drive through and wait for a bus.
University Ave is a commercial street of mostly small businesses that are functional but not cute or attractive in any way. A diverse population of very urban types populate the street and the bus line. I walk this area alone at night with no trepidation, but there a few people on the street who obviously are not on the way to their broker.
If by chance you or Mr. HopefulRailUser are into classic cars, summer weekend nights at Days Inn would be heaven. People line University on lawn chairs watching the cars, whose destination is Porky's Drive-In two blocks down from Days Inn. The revving engines can be kind of noisy though.
If you just need a place close to the depot, Days Inn might be good. If you are looking for a location with pleasant walks or things to do nearby, this isn't it. There are a number of good breakfast/lunch cafes nearby and a Subway restaurant.
A long line of cabs usually waits for the Builder. Hertz has a desk in the depot and cars onsite, but I have not seen the desk staffed. Strangely, their St. Paul Amtrak location is found under Minneapolis on their website.
I would be happy to provide more details if you have any questions, but I know very little about places for visitors to stay. There is an excellent website by a local artist listed on this thread - http://www.billhosko.com - where you will find scenes of St. Paul that are not in the "ugly" category.
HopefulRailUser Member # 4513
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Thanks TSR - That is all great info. I will call the Days Inn about my reservation and to see if their van works late at night. They often don't. We will be renting a car but the Amtrak agency is not open at night. We have the weekend in town, family to visit in Roseville and in Mpls. And where will you be the weekend of June 23rd?
TwinStarRocket Member # 2142
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Vicki, since you are here on a summer weekend, I will warn you the classic car activity may have a dominating presence around Days Inn at night, especially if there is a local car event that weekend. Loud cars, crowded streets and sidewalks, and police trying to catch speeders. You might ask the Days Inn people if they know of a car event that weekend, in case they fill up. Mornings will be quiet.
On the good side, a short walk to Porky's to see the old and customized cars can be a real treat.
Too soon to tell where I will be that weekend. I have a lot of vacation time to "use or lose" by June 30, and a stash of AGR points. If I am in town, and transportation from station to motel with luggage becomes a problem, I would be happy to help out.
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