posted
I've noticed in general the windows are getting REALLY cloudy on trains in general, but especially on the Surfliners and unrefurbished cars, such as Surfliner I's.
Some windows are so bad it's like looking through dirty water-everything literally has a shade of brown.
The windows become discolored around the edges, where the window meets the rubber strip. Then the rest of the window gets the same discolor if nothing is done. Add to that the fact that most of these windows have tons of little scratches, making it virtually impossible to look out if the angle of the sun is right.
I don't know why Amtrak's windows are in such bad shape, while So Cal Metrolink's windows are good as new (not even water spots). Did Amtrak use a lesser quality material for the windows?
TwinStarRocket Member # 2142
posted
Others may know more about this, but for safety reasons Amtrak windows are made with something other than regular glass. Kevlar? It has to survive impact without breaking. Some have said it is bulletproof.
Problem is, unlike glass, it yellows with age and accumulates scratches easily. I know someone who was in a crash on the Empire Builder in ND. He said his sleeper car turned on its side and hit the ground above 50 mph. He watched the ground being crushed under his intact bedroom window. He was glad it wasn't glass.
dilly Member # 1427
posted
Amtrak's window glass is a shatterproof, virtually unbreakable polycarbonate material. It's a slightly more upscale version of the "ghetto glass" used in municipal buses in many urban areas (luckily, the railroad didn't opt to install cheaper windows made of acrylic, which has a life span of roughly two years before it's virtually impossible to see through).
Unfortunately, as you've noticed, the substance tends to fog and discolor due to sunlight and the effects of heat and cold. It's also highly sensitive to abrasions; Amtrak's car-washing equipment scratches the hell out of the stuff.
The aerospace industry has been experimenting with polycarbonate windows faced with a wafer-thin veneer of shatterproof glass. The idea is to develop windows that exhibit the best of both worlds -- the clarity and durability of glass along with the light weight, low cost, and safety of plastic.
Amtrak's windows will perhaps one day be made of the stuff -- hopefully by the 29th century.
--------------------------------
PaulB Member # 4258
posted
Also keep in mind the "glass" of the windows is very heavy-the emergency instructions on the Metrolink Bombardier windows say the "glass" weighs 65 lb!
I would imagine the large windows in the Sightseer Lounge weigh around 100lb.
Railroad Bob Member # 3508
posted
Years ago, I had a first hand real world demo of how tough these windows are. Riding one of the night "Silver" trains through Florida, maybe near Kissimee, I was sitting next to the attendant. Saw a bluish flash ffrom the distant field, then a large caliber rifle bullet slammed into the window. Made a sickening sound; we could see the lead streaks and even some of the copper jacketing of the bullet, stuck there on the window. It held; the impact point was right at the level of the head of the attendant! As to the scratches of the Amtrak windows, I think a lot of it comes from the rotating brushes in the cleaning sheds, such as those at 8th St. in the LA yards. I've seen demos of sledge hammers to these windows, and they held.
Doc Brown Member # 4724
posted
The brand name of this stuff is Lexan. Its what a lot of quality water bottles are made out of, like the ones Nalgene makes. I read something about the bullet proofness of it. While it can stop some small calibur bullets, it won't nessesaraly stop a tree from coming through in a storm. Recommendations are that it should be replaced every 4 years. Still, its cool stuff and a whole lot safer than glass.
pelican Member # 754
posted
In the last days of the Penn Central (and early Amtrak) operation of the Northeast Corridor, we were ofter treated to "aquarium cars". These had water trapped between the two panes of "glass", sometimes more than half way up the window. Often over half the windows in a given car!
George Harris Member # 2077
posted
There was a discussion on this subject almost three years ago. If you do a search on the words, FRA glazing , it will lead you to a thread titled "Every Coach Has One" that was started on 2-24-2004.
The quick summary of the facts brought out is that there are Federal Rairoad Administration requirements for window material in both pasenger carying cars and locomotives. The "every coach has one" was referring that in each coach or on each window there is a little imprint or tag that says "Fully equipped FRA Part 223 Glazing."
It may also say "CFR49part223". CFR is Code fo Federal regulations. 49 appears to be those applying to railroads.
As written, this cfr is in the nature of a "performance specification" That is, is gives the impact resistance requirements for the window material and where material meeting this requirement must be used but does not have any requirement as to what the material must be.
The requirement can be found in the Code of Federal Regulations, Title 49 - Transportation, Subtitle B-Other Regulations Relating to Transportation, Chapter II - Federal Railroad Administration, Department of Transportation, Part 223 Safety glazing standards-locomotives, passenger cars and cabooses. It can be found on the web at www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_03/49cfr223_03.html These are pdf files numbered paragraph by numbered paragraph, but the file each has at least a full page, so if you download, look or you may have the same page more than once if the numbered paragraphs in the regulation are short. The whole part 223 is only 6 pages.
The glazing is supposed to be bulletproof for small calibers, also dropped / thrown concrete block proof. It is required to be two layers and the bullet or concrete block may penetrate the outside layer but not the inside layer. This stuff is as far beyond automobile glass as a SD45 is beyond a highway truck. The high impact platics are a lot cheaper than glass is my understanding. They are heavy, but if made of glass, the windows would be even heavier.
sbalax Member # 2801
posted
On our trip SBA-SJC yesterday one pane of the window in our Bedroom was badly fogged over and scratched. The other was very clear but dirty. Generally the car was in a very sad state of repair. After dinner we came back to find it was very hot inside our bedroom. The temperature control was broken and it could not be turned down. The Passenger Service Manager came by and apologized and suggested that we write a letter and include his opinion that it was like a sauna. By leaving the door open is was barely tolerable but we could not have spent the night in that room. He told us there were none available to move us to. I suspect there were roomettes and I would have pushed for that if we weren't getting off at SJC.
Frank in wet but clearing SJC
P.S. No Parlour Car. The PSM says they will all be back by June and that the Starlight will have all reconditioned equipment and the same dining service as the Empire Builder. I told him I'd be back to see!
HopefulRailUser Member # 4513
posted
Exciting news about the changes coming in June. We will be taking the Starlight south from Portland at the end of June so we shall see. Too bad your bedroom was uncomfortable. We may take a day trip to SBA at the end of March, gaining those 2x points. I will let you know for sure, maybe we can meet this time. We didn't get essentially any of that rain.
Amtrak207 Member # 1307
posted
Just like seat foam, just like exterior paint, just like carpeting and restrooms, Amtrak can't replace windows as quickly as they once could anymore. Not with a shoestring budget. I agree, however, that these windows are tough stuff. Each pane (there are two) is an eighth of an inch thick. The current glazing standard was put into place in the early 1980s after a number of people were seriously injured on the NEC by rock-throwers. This is also why F40s and E60s sometimes had accessory screens over the cab windows. 1989: dad's riding into Chicago, as usual, fifteen miles per hour. A kid semi-casually walks up to the side of the tracks, grabs a chunk of ballast, and throws it at the train. It hit dead center in his Amfleet II coach window. It didn't break. Kind of scary, seeing a rock hurled at where your head was, but he was fine. 1994: The westbound Lakeshore derails in Batavia, New York. Dome coach 9411 first goes sideways, then leads nine cars down an embankment. The dome is the only car that rolled in the process. Fortunately, nobody was riding in there at the time, but if they had... The top of the dome deflected nine inches at the leading edge. That's after having 85 tons of railcar roll over on the canopy. From a structural standpoint, that's impressive! Also, the glazing (same stuff) fractured as the dome bent, but it stayed in place. That dome is still for sale, at a bargain 900 grand. The glazing is bowed down in the center, but it's still in place, and some is still watertight. (The seller has wisely put a tarpaulin over the dome to prevent water damage.) As everyone has seen on the blooper reels, even the Lexan-brand polycarbonate is not infallible. Backboards break, and so do hockey boards. It's the same stuff. 2000: Me, Myself and Irene- Jim Carrey punches out a window in a Viewliner deluxe bedroom. I started shouting "FAKE!" when I saw that. It was a decent movie, only because it had an F40 (265 I think) in it... 2002: sleeper 32100 took a couple dozen mature trees down the side in the Auto Train wreck. There was a kink in the air line, and the brakes were not fully applied until after the train began to pile up. Some side windows failed due to shear impact damage, estimated at being four times what the windows were designed to take. Sadly, the people who lost their lives in that wreck were found outside the railcars. 2006: You Superlinerites are spoiled, I say. My roomette (room 8) in 62023 (Mystic View) was only an okay trip. For me to have anything shy of great takes a concerted effort. The lower window leaked in the rain, none of the upper berth lights worked (because people had jammed down on the light switch buttons too hard) and the door was going to rattle itself apart. Solution: rip the cover off of your national timetable, fold it over itself four times, and wedge it in the door. Not to mention the neighbors... I know that the harsh acids used in train washing equipment can't be very good for the plastic either. It's tough stuff, but only to a point. Now that most of the heritage cars are gone, there are only three sizes of windows left so replacement is easier. You've got short distance coach size (Amfleet I, Horizon, and Viewliner upper tier), long distance coach size (all non-lounge Superliners, Amfleet II, Viewliner lower tier, and Acela), the porthole-size (Superliner sleeper lower level for the family room, Horizon), and El Hugerino (Sightseer Lounge). Airlines can't match that because (last time I flew, 1998) they were using the same stuff as the NYC subway used to use, and it scratched so badly I could not see out the postage stamp-sized opening. Plus, if they take an impact, they need to be airtight, and they won't be, so down go the masks... Intercity buses, er, motorcoaches use the same stuff, but it's useless when the roof canopy deflects enough to pop the windows out of their frames, like the I-87 rollover last August. Now if I could only find some way to replicate the tint Amtrak uses on my models! Don't take my horror stories the wrong way. Amtrak is still in a statistical dead heat with airlines as the safest way to travel. Since I don't fly, I'm going to stay on the ground when I travel. There's plenty of oxygen here for everyone.
sbalax- WRITE the letter! Your chances of getting a partial refund are much greater in writing than with a phone rep. Parlour car coming back?!? PLEASE! I haven't ridden the CS yet, but will be looping my way around sometime in October. I had thought about changing my itinerary (what's the point with no PP car, and we'll likely be on a bus or hours late anyway) but will now reconsider. I'm waiting to see how Mr. Kummant's outspoken push on customer service shapes up.
sbalax Member # 2801
posted
Great posting. Very informative.
The letter has been written and mailed. I also filled out the online survey. It's interesting that one of the last questions is if the person filling out the form would be interested in being part of a "focus group". I, of course, said yes.
I'll keep you all posted. The PSM, Lionel Johnson, seemed earnest about the improvements coming.
Frank in, finally, cooler SBA
train lady Member # 3920
posted
FRank, At this point I would gladly send you some of our "cool"weather. It is now a wind chill of 8 and the streets and sidewalks are a sheet of ice. I feel like Nanook of the North
Amtrak207 Member # 1307
posted
Relax, winter is ending quickly (wind chills -19 this weekend, nothing serious). You'll have to worry about sun kinks and rail expansion before you know it.
posted