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NARP has reportedly learned that with the April 2 timetable change, Amtrak will reschedule the EB Lake Shore to depart Chicago 10PM with a resulting three hous later arrival at all en route stations. The schedule will "mirror' that of NYC #90, The Chicagoan.
I guess any vestiges of "Century thinking", i.e. a Chicago-NY overnight is gone. Even though such was unwise before, now it is "don't even think' of obtaining tickets for a public event in New York on day or arrival.
But there are benefits to the change. Again there is a backstop train to accomodate what otherwise would have been misconnects from late Western trains. That was lost when the Three Rivers was killed and no doubt the misconnect costs were mounting up with #6's "stellar' performance of late.
Further Dinner will no longer be served which will result in savings. However, I understand some kind of pre-departure "bon voyage party" will be offered in the Diner AND Sleepers will be open for occupancy at 9PM. However, we will see how long these two "amenities' noted will last.
20th Century Member # 2196
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Alas...the final killing of any sort of fading ghost of "the Century". Just as well. As you mention there are benefits for connections. Maybe the schedule change will improve the Late Shore's time keeping? Okay, now let's hear it for the return of the Broadway Limited.
palmland Member # 4344
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I agree with 20th century that a return of the Broadway is sorely needed. Since Amtrak is not adding train miles - without state sponsorship, a reroute of the Capitol would probably be required.
Mr. Norman, thanks for the info on the 'Chicagoan'. I kind of like a late evening departure, especially with the 9PM boarding for sleeper passengers. Haven't seen that in a long time. It used to be that many trains gearerd to overnight business travel opened early for occupancy for the weary road warriors. Suppose the lounge will be open then too?
The earliest occupancy in 'the good old days' that I can find was 8:30PM for several PRR trains out of Pittsburgh. I suspect US Steel wanted their boys to get a good night's sleep and no doubt have a cigar and nightcap. Wonder if that was earliest?
Amtrak207 Member # 1307
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Actually, it's supposed to be 9:00P for coach passengers, 8:00P for sleepers, so the boarding announcements will probably be made around 9:45 for both, seeing as how there's an unwritten rule about not letting people onto a train until they have to rush, lately. All joking aside, the LSL was never a 'Century Replacement' for me because they are two very different trains. Amtrak has needed an eastbound "sweeper" train out of Chicago to catch all the late arrivals, and you weren't going to get to New York in time to get anything done anyway. For example, the last southbound NEC train has this function and does a fine job of ensuring people don't miss quite so many connections. And the LSL even has sleepers, not that you'll be able to get one. You also don't have total redundancy between the LSL and Capitol Limited anywhere from Chicago to Cleveland in both directions. And when was the last time the LSL was on time anyway? (November) I'd rather try a new time slot and see if the train can make it. As for meal times, on my last long distance trip we didn't get eating in the Diner until 12:30 in the morning, and that was with the supposed flexibility of SDS. Someone also may be noting that the best eastbound running times in New York have been posted by train 64, suggesting that mid-afternoon would be a better time to try and get through that stretch of track. This means CSX is going to have to completely reshuffle their freight schedules so they can pile them in front of the Lakeshore again.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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As I noted over at another Forum, this schedule change could 'work for me' with a trip to Stamford - and I won't rule it out for a likely later trip this year.
The trip would have a walk from my home about 730P, get BNSF 1292 753P arrive CUS 840P, board the Sleeper 9PM, check out the 'bon voyage party' in the Diner and hopefully sleep without having been acclimated to "rock and roll'. Next AM see Cleveland and Erie by light of day (don't think I ever have), roll through the Mohawk Valley noting how depressed those Upstate cities are and then down the Hudson at dusk. I would just scrap an NYP-STM coupon in favor of MNR to STM; taxicab to the hotel (absent its rates pushing my "obscenity button") at which I usually stay when visiting family; get a rental auto next day.
notelvis Member # 3071
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This is good news in reducing the number of misconnects arriving from points west of Chicago. Also interesting that Cleveland will have a daylight passenger train again....same for Erie, PA.
I agree that maybe it's time to see the return of the Broadway Limited.....might be doable if they combine it with the Capitol as far as Pittsburgh. That has been done before but any such new combined operation would require a single level section (for NYP) and then the superliner section (to WAS). Mixing sections like that would be a new thing for Amtrak I believe.
palmland Member # 4344
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You're right Notelvis, Superliner clearance issue is a pain for the east coast trains. If Amtrak ever gets funding for new equipment maybe the new NJT bilevel cars could be modified for LD service. Clearly they can run into NYP and I believe have doors to handle varying platform hights.
Until then, how about the Star or Meteor originating in Washington as a Superliner train. Those viewliner cars would then go to the Broadway that would run Chgo to Phila. and down to Washington. Running time PGH to PHL is about the same as to PGH-DC (7 1/2 hours). Another 1 1/2 hours gets you down the NEC to Washington. Route would have lot more in the way of population than Cumberland/ Connelsville. No one rides Amtrak LD for the speed and I suspect this would be more reliable. Might even be less expensive since on Amtrak owned tracks from Harrisburg.
The Superliner cars from the Capitol would go to the Florida train.
Wow, guess I got a bit off topic.
notelvis Member # 3071
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Interesting ideas Palmland......
Here's another one -
How about freeing up the neccessary Viewliner sleepers by A) Converting the Crescent to a superliner train originating in Washington and B) returning the Cardinal to a Superliner consist also originating in Washington.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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As I noted here at the Forum in the past, Amtrak once did consider a Superliner equipped CHI-WAS-MIA "Capitol/Star". This was done at a time after the "Mercer Cuts' were effected and S-II's were being delivered.
However, Amtrak realized that through service to Corridor points was essential, New Yorkers simply were not going to be bothered changing trains @ Wash. That Superliner equipment makes for a more attractive train is meaningless.
Amtrak reportedly has found that Cardinal ridership increased by making it a through train. "We" may prefer Superliners and Lounge to cover the scenic route, but the public at large has shown at the farebox they prefer the through train.
History also bears out this as well. I learned, when I was employed in the industry on A-Day, that SCL was "on the fence' whether or not to join up. The lights burned late @ 500 Water and the CEO was personally involved with the "number crunching' process. The reasoning was that the trains were putting more in the cookie jar than they were taking out and the equipment still had economic life remaining. But the potential loss of the Wash interchange (or even Richmond depending where RF&P went on joining up) was too overwhelming and SCL accordingly signed up.
palmland Member # 4344
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Probably the only real option for a Broadway is to reroute the LSL that way. You'd pick up Phila for through passengers and in fact the train could originate in Boston so that market could have sleepers again.
Mr. Norman I think Tom Rice was the man in charge of the SCL then and I had heard he and J.R. Getty - passenger ops did agonize over the decision. I'm not sure why they had a concern over the Washington interchange as the Crescent continued to operate through to New York.
In 1974 it had a sleeper from NY to Birmingham or New Orleans (alternate days) and a tri-weekly NY to LA and 2 Wash-Atlanta including that great DR, MR, Lounge car. Of course the Piedmont continued to provide daylight service from Washington to Atlanta and had a grill coach. That's a train we could use again in the southeast.
In those days the Champion and Meteor were often 18 cars long. Makes you wonder what Amtrak could do if they had more equipment with a more reliable service plus a little local advertising.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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quote:Originally posted by palmland: Mr. Norman I think Tom Rice was the man in charge of the SCL then and I had heard he and J.R. Getty - passenger ops did agonize over the decision. I'm not sure why they had a concern over the Washington interchange as the Crescent continued to operate through to New York.
That is a good point, Mr. Palmland, and possibly with hindsight, "it could have turned out' that way.
But on the flip side, SRY had more economic incentive to stay out, and that was because between the CY 1969 measuring period to determine a road's entry fee, and A-Day, SRY had been successful in removing trains by "self-help" means. Further with WGC at the SRY throttle, "things just happened' around Wash his way, and possibly SCL CEO (Rice or Osborn?) was not quite that certain with regard to their interests.
Liberty Limited Member # 4300
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Very interesting sequence of posts by all. There's so much to reply to by so many folks, that I can't even decide on which post to quote, so I'll just reply in succession.
David,
I have grown to agree that the Cardinal would likely be a much better train as a SL equipped WAS-CHI train (this coming from a rider whose taken it's through routing onto the NEC twice), as the current single levels and amenities leave a lot to be desired. As for the Crescent, my biggest concern with a truncation is that 83/93/161 tend to sell out of NYP-WAS tix, which could make getting a late ticket from NYP-ATL harder, not due to the Crescent but its NEC connection. IMHO, the sb Crescent and Silver Meteor might be better utilized if NYP-BAL and NYP-WAS ticket purchases (only) were permitted where capcity was available to enhance revenue on these trains when their comparable Regionals are sold out of the long tickets due to being fully booked from NYP-PHL.
GBN,
Your comments about the attractiveness of a one seat ride in spite of the tradeoffs are very accurate though. As I mentioned above, I've booked 50 and 51 between BAL and CHI despite knowing it would take about 6 more hours than 29/30, and have less capacious rolling stock with no sightseer nor diner. I guess there's a certain comfort to be gained for the door to door service, as both times through BAL, the coaches were over 1/2 full.
Palmland,
Definitely agree on the usefulness of a WAS-ATL day train. The Atlanta market seems far too neglected at present, given its proximity to so many cities that could be served by a daytrain, though I'm sure NS or CSX would be none too thrilled.
GBN again,
I seem to recall reading that SR employed a rather nasty way of terminating trains in which they merely cut the segments that connected states, thus leaving all stations still served, but by far more useless trains, killing off the ridership and making for an easier INTRASTATE train to kill off when ridership waned to the point they could prove the train would irretrievable. The only positive outcome of this was that by doing so, they could afford to put the TLC into their flagship Crescent.
notelvis Member # 3071
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While I would really enjoy being able to ride superliner equipped trains in the southeast, I recognize, as Mr. Norman points out, that the through trains are going to be more popular at the farebox.
In the case of Southern Railway remaining independent of Amtrak, only the Southern Crescent was continuing on to New York (and for a time Boston) as a through train. SCL, conversely, was still operating at least four separate trains....possibly more....that would have needed to be carried by Amtrak north of Richmond. Perhaps SCL saw that as a more daunting proposition than did Graham Claytor at Southern.
Furthermore, a railroad which opted not to join Amtrak was obligated to maintain it's passenger service as it stood on April 30, 1971 for at least four more years before that railroad could again petition for discontinuance. Is there a possibility that Amtrak would have only wanted to handle two SCL trains north of Richmond thus 'sticking' the railroad with a pair of passenger trains originating in Richmond without connecting service from the north? That alone would have been a frightening prospect.
Finally......in a 'last ditch' effort to get Superliners south of the Potomac River, how about a Washington-Miami train using superliner equipment and combined with the Auto-Train (and making limited station stops Richmond-Rocky Mount-Fayetteville-Charleston-Savannah-Jacksonville) during the segment of combined train operation?
We won't even start with another one of my unlikely dreams......that of seeing the Silver Meteor return to it's traditional SAL routing through Raleigh, Hamlet, Camden, and Columbia!
OK......I apologize, I really did not intend to hijack this thread away from the Lake Shore's new, later eastbound departure.
Tanner929 Member # 3720
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I was dissapointed in 2005 when they cancelled the Three Rivers. I was planning a trip to Pittsburgh via train to see the Pirates play in there new stadium. Because the 3 Rivers came in at around 4 I would be able to make a 7pm game unfortunatly today The Pennsylvania gets in at past 8pm. Guess I'll have to catch a Phillies game.
palmland Member # 4344
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quote:Originally posted by notelvis: ....
We won't even start with another one of my unlikely dreams......that of seeing the Silver Meteor return to it's traditional SAL routing through Raleigh, Hamlet, Camden, and Columbia!
OK......I apologize, I really did not intend to hijack this thread away from the Lake Shore's new, later eastbound departure.
Way to go David - The Meteor does indeed need to return to its proper route (of course I have no personal interest in that). Perhaps the slow moving Southeast high speed initiative will be the key to making it happen. Only real problem is Charleston is a big market to bypass.
Mr. Norman - I think you are correct about Osbourne being CEO, I believe Tom Rice was just President at that time.
Tanner929, too bad about the ballgame. One of my best childhood memories is taking the baseball special from Wilmington to North Philadelphia to see the futile Phillies lose at Connie Mack stadium. Usually operated by PRR but at least once on the B&O with Alco FA's as I vaguely recall. SEPTA should try it, although it would now require a transfer to the city transit.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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quote:Originally posted by notelvis: Finally......in a 'last ditch' effort to get Superliners south of the Potomac River, how about a Washington-Miami train using superliner equipment and combined with the Auto-Train (and making limited station stops Richmond-Rocky Mount-Fayetteville-Charleston-Savannah-Jacksonville) during the segment of combined train operation?
I'm afraid that is a "nope", Mr. Presley.
Unless I am in need of an update from someone more contemporary to industry affairs than am I in my admittedly "removed' state, the contract that Amtrak holds, as successor to the Estate of the Auto Train Corp, with CSX Transportation, as successor to the RF&P and SCL Railroads, does not allow for the haulage of passengers without autos. In short, save an emergency arising to the magnitude of 9/11, the AT is governed by a separate contract calling for different rates of remuneration for access, performance, and possibly assumption of liability than does the contract governing other Amtrak operations with that carrier.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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quote:Originally posted by Liberty Limited: I seem to recall reading that SR employed a rather nasty way of terminating trains in which they merely cut the segments that connected states, thus leaving all stations still served, but by far more useless trains, killing off the ridership and making for an easier INTRASTATE train to kill off when ridership waned to the point they could prove the train would irretrievable.
Indeed correct, Mr. Liberty--
SRY's tactic of truncating trains to intrastate runs in States where they knew they had the regulatory agency "in their back pocket', produced metamorphies such as the Agusta Special 'conveniently' running Fort Mill SC (remember Jim and Tammy Faye, anyone?) to Warrenville SC, and The Pelican no longer serving New Orleans so that it could concentrate on developing the potential business at York, Alabama.
Needless to say, the life expectancy of these truncated operations were about what SRY's Legal Dept., headed by none other than WGC, expected them to be.
sojourner Member # 3134
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Tanner, Why don't you just stay overnight in Pittsburgh? It's a nice burg . . .
David, I agree that the Cardinal would be better a superliner ending in DC, although I also think it should be daily daily daily!!! But the eastbound arrival in NYC is really way too late. . . . I liked stopping over in Charlotteville to get home, when I took it (your recommendation, as I recall!)
I do not agree about the Crescent, however. The NY-New Orleans connection should be maintained, and also NY-Atlanta, which gets a lot of business. It's not such a scenic ride that it needs a superliner, at least not to Atlanta (I don't know about south of there, have never been). And the viewliners are actually more comfortable in some ways, with their little private toilets.
notelvis Member # 3071
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Sojourner, your point about the Crescent continuing as a through train to New York is noted and accepted. I think I'm just being selfish about wanting a superliner train close enough for me to ride on a more regular basis!
Going back to the Southern Railway, another documented 'dirty trick' during the 60's was the sudden discontinuance of what was left of the Royal Palm south of Valdosta, GA. Why opt for a civilized breakfast arrival in Jacksonville when you can turn your passengers out in a dusty south Georgia town at 4:00am?
Bear in mind that Graham Claytor was developing the ruthless train-off strategies under the direction of D.W. Brosnan. The tone shifted somewhat when Claytor ascended to the presidency of the railroad. It's as if in the 1970's the Southern were trying to 'buy back' good will with it's Crescent which was a reasonably decent passenger train until Claytor retired.
One other interesting tidbit from the Southern Railway folks was the orchestrated 'last run' of a steam locomotive in regular service. The ceremonial pictures of a large 2-8-2 handing off a freight train to it's diesel successor in Chattanooga was a staged media event in June 1953. By that time, the Chattanooga yards and surrounding lines had been fully dieselized for several weeks. The last active steam on the Southern was a small 4-6-2 pulling a local passenger train in southern Indiana. Permission to discontinue that passenger train was granted in early June and Southern's PR folks hastily trotted out the 'last run' by firing up a locomotive from the Chattanooga scrap line and sending it north a couple of towns to pull that freight on it's last lap into town. The company staged the event to avoid their actual last run of a steam locomotive being forever associated with the discontinuance of a passenger train.
Oh.....and I look forward to a daylight ride eastward from Cleveland.....for what it's worth now!
George Harris Member # 2077
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David: Then there is the Jesup to Jacksonville FL cut that turned the Kansas City Florida Special into the Kansas City - Brunswick GA Special. A reschedule of the Royal Palm south of Atlanta could have combined them there, but did it happen? No. A hint should have been, after the major rebuilding on the Rathole, there was not a time change by even one minute at any point between Cincinatti and Chattanooga for the Royal Palm or Ponce de Leon.
******** Can we hallucinate that this change in the Lake Shore is setting up for multi-train service on the route? Say on the order of four trains per day each way something like 7:00am, 11:00am, 4:00pm, 10:00pm departures on each end?
George
notelvis Member # 3071
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quote:Originally posted by George Harris: David: Then there is the Jesup to Jacksonville FL cut that turned the Kansas City Florida Special into the Kansas City - Brunswick GA Special. A reschedule of the Royal Palm south of Atlanta could have combined them there, but did it happen? No. A hint should have been, after the major rebuilding on the Rathole, there was not a time change by even one minute at any point between Cincinatti and Chattanooga for the Royal Palm or Ponce de Leon.
******** Can we hallucinate that this change in the Lake Shore is setting up for multi-train service on the route? Say on the order of four trains per day each way something like 7:00am, 11:00am, 4:00pm, 10:00pm departures on each end?
George
In the last days of the Cincinnati-Atlanta remnant of the Royal Palm, the schedule was actually lengthened........a southbound piggyback freight operated on the heels of the passenger train out of Cincinnati and then overtook it when the passenger train backed in off the main line to service the Chattanooga station. The freight generally beat the passenger train into Atlanta by more than a half hour!
The final indignities for the 'Royal Palm' came when the train was discontinued south of Somerset, KY for it's final few months. My father was a grad student at the University of Kentucky at that time and would sometimes take me down to the station in Georgetown, KY to see what was left of this train on it's northbound trip. (due at 7:14pm.......nearly forty years ago and I can still remember that.) By then it was just a single E unit, a baggage car, and a pair of streamlined coaches but it fired my imagination. This wasn't an amusement park ride.....this was a REAL TRAIN that I could get on and ride to Cincinnati where I could connect to a myriad of other trains going to anyplace I might like.
These endless possibilities were first known to me on a cracked concrete platform one autumn evening in 1968.
Oh......and back to topic......sure, I can imagine multiple trains between Chicago and Cleveland each day. Wouldn't it be great if just one of them ran on time and served both cities at decent hours?
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