Grandluxe Rail Journeys (formerly American Orient Express) has announced they will be running their luxury cars behind the South West Chief, California Zephyr and Amtrak trains to Florida starting in November and ending in January. This sounds quite fascinating since these are actually scheduled trains and not a tour. It will cost about $2000 for a single sleeper between L.A. or Emeryville and Chicago, not too bad a price when you compare it to their very high-priced tours that include far too many bus rides. The schedule is due to run from November to January. Check it out at www.americanorientexpress.com Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Oh oh, sounds like they are emulating the business model of their predecessor American European Express.
That flopped.
Posted by 20th Century (Member # 2196) on :
Also Washington D.C.to Miami for $789 and 5% off on a roundtrip. The dates are listed on the site.
Posted by royaltrain (Member # 622) on :
I do hope Mr. Norman it will do better than the late American European Express. I remember when they wanted to run a scheduled service Chicago to New York on the back of the Lake Shore Ltd.. I was always sorry that it was not a success, since luxury travel on a regular passenger run is far more attractive (at least I think so) than an occasional tourist train. In any event I think I will book the L.A Chicago service for the Christmas season since I will be in the City of Angels during that time period.
Posted by Doodlebug (Member # 4564) on :
Somebody tell me I'm seeing two plus two and not coming up with more than four.
If I'm correct, there's some serious experimentation going on at Amtrak with long-distance trains. GrandLuxe Limited is just part of it.
Posted by Southwest Chief (Member # 1227) on :
Very interesting news.
What will they be doing about food service? This reminds me of the short lived Princess Tours Full Dome that rode on the back of the Coast Starlight. I traveled this once with my family and it was a neat way to see the route. The full dome was pretty classy and a big step up from Amtrak. Being a dome diner they provided food, so that’s why I’m interested with what Grandluxe will do for food.
If they have sleepers plus a diner they're going to have to pay for extra locomotive power. Something we found out on a few private rail trips back in the 80s.
Posted by Doodlebug (Member # 4564) on :
The Amtrak survey page says the Luxury Bedroom service would include exclusive access to a luxury dining car and luxury lounge car that, from the pictures, would not be Amtrak's diner or Sightseer Lounge.
Posted by train lady (Member # 3920) on :
I am getting a video from Amazon about the American Orient Express. It details 9 different trips. Has anyone seen this video? Also for those who are interessted in the dear departed dome car there is a video AMERICA BY RAIL (volume i the Heartland)that is a trip from DC to SF and includes some tourist railroads. The beginning is the Capital Limited to Chicago and shows the dome car. In fact most of the scenery is taken from there so one gets the feeling of being in that car. It is not a new video (obviously)and while the color is very blah the pictures are sharp. The tourist rails are interesting because some are steam engines and many of you aren't old enough to remember the sounds of steam trains.
Posted by Southwest Chief (Member # 1227) on :
Doodlebug, thanks for the info and link.
Wow 7 cars, that's another Southwest Chief (minus the baggage car)...although they are single level cars which weigh less than Superliners. But they still weigh more than the express cars the Chief used to haul. I would guess when the Chief has these cars on the rear there will be 4 P42s for power.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
I wonder if this is a trial balloon to see if Grande Luxe should take over first class service? I'd love to see good equipment and good service without the exorbitant prices and associated bus tours and over the top amenities that Grande Luxe has.
The $789 Miami fare sounds competitive to current Amtrak fares. Would sure beat a worn out Viewliner with diner lite fare. Good for Amtrak for trying a different approach since new equipment funding not likely to occur real soon.
Posted by MDRR (Member # 2992) on :
Palmland, that is exactly what I was just pondering. When you consider the argument always being made that Amtrak loses $$ on their sleeping/dining car services, this may be a "solution" to these issues. Not that I necessarily agree. I like this as an option, but don't want to see Amtrak first class service discontinued either...
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Of interest, after a quick review of the website, the Wash-Fla GL fare noted above is "not all that out of line' with Amtrak's current fare offering for a mid-December trip in a Bedroom.
If this GL/Amtrak venture proves successful (how you choose to measure success is quite open to conjecture), be assured that the Bush administration will believe their presently flopped 2005 Amtrak initiative (Mineta Pup and Pony in fanese) will suddenly be a success. But for all we know, Amtrak is offering GL a free ride - maybe even a subsidy to provide the service so it can be trumpeted "initiative is working'.
However, the facts of the mnatter remain:
American European Express Roaring Fork Express Princess Tours Keystone Club Auto Train
I sincerely hope this GL/Amtk works - as one participant noted over at another site, "this could be a win-win".
Posted by 20th Century (Member # 2196) on :
I guess the $789 fare (D.C.- Miami) is per person as opposed to Amtrak's sleeper fare which is for the bedroom which can accomodate 2 people with just an extra coach fare for the 2nd passenger. In any event I like the idea of offering GL service on a regularly scheduled train. Also, I think you can make arrangements to board/disembark at certain stops along the route if arrangements are made in advance with GrandLuxe.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
20th century - you're right that $789x2 does make it pricey for one night trip. I wonder how it works if a single traveler since I don't think they offer roomettes.
Posted by Doodlebug (Member # 4564) on :
I did some random checks on Amtrak's website and found that it's not yet possible to reserve GrandLuxe Limited space there on a random selection of advertised Amtrak trains and dates. It seems to me that if this is to be a valid test of a new Amtrak concept, travelers would have to informed of and be able to purchase the luxury accommodations through Amtrak rather than exclusively through GrandLuxe.
Mr. Norman's unfailing skepticism is a wise guide for future evaluation of what's happening here. Whether it's possible to ferret out exactly what's going on, given the usual difficulties of getting a clear story on anything out of Washington, may be very difficult. But these are some questions I think we should be looking for answers to, and if you think of others, please post them:
Who initiated the Amtrak/GrandLuxe combination trains idea?
What are the financial arrangements between the two parties?
What is the motivation of each of the parties to cooperate, i.e., how do Amtrak and GrandLuxe each expect to benefit from the arrangement?
What are the possible implications this cooperative arrangement may have for the future of (a) Amtrak, (b) GrandLuxe and (c) a national passenger rail system? Keep in mind those are three separate things. All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.
On Palmland's point about roomettes, GrandLuxe's website lists two accommodations for single travelers, Single Sleeper Grand Class and Single Sleeper. The difference is that Grand Class includes a shower in the room, the other includes shower down the hall.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
Thanks for the info Doodlebug. Good to know there is space for a single traveler - but probably I would lose a wife if I went on the GrandLuxe without her.
Your points are well taken, and I am sure it will become clearer as we get closer to the dates of operation. I would not expect Amtrak to publicly discuss any relationship with Grandluxe or make booking available on Amtrak.com.
If they did, I'll bet the good old unions would make an issue of it. For that reason, I am surprised that they will be handling intermediate passengers on Grandluxe rather than treating it as just a point to point charter operation tacked onto the back of Amtrak trains.
Posted by PullmanCo (Member # 1138) on :
OK, boys and girls,
It's time to introduce Pullman Company Accommodations 101 to you. Today we do this in the context of of AEE, err, AOE, errr, GrandLuxe and their winter operations on 3/4, 5/6, and selected Florida trains.
THIS IS A SECTION. It sleeps two. It has an upper and a lower berth: http://www.aaprco.com/charter-request/Glossary/rooms/section.html A section is what Amtrak advertises as a roomette. The difference is Amtrak encloses the section with a glass partition. In 1934, Pullman called that the ENCLOSED SECTION. BTW, the 24" and 20" racks on an Amtrak section are from the SLUMBERCOACH design of Budd. A true Pullman Section has what is essentially a twin bed! Footprint: 18 square feet. GrandLuxe does not use Sections
THIS IS A ROOMETTE: It was patented by Pullman approximately 1936. It was a standard accommodation of the streamliner era, though towards the end, several railroads, including the Union Pacific and the Santa Fe, converted Roomette cars into additional Bedrooms: http://www.aaprco.com/charter-request/Glossary/rooms/roomette.html It was an space for one person. Grand Luxe does not use Roomettes
THIS IS A DOUBLE BEDROOM: It actually came about in the heavyweight era, but became popular in the streamliner era. GrandLuxe uses variations on this pattern for the Classic Pullman and several of their higher end, larger space rooms. For those larger rooms, GrandLuxe opened up two DBR to become one space. A DBR had approx 30sq feet footprint plus the annex. It lacked a shower. http://www.aaprco.com/charter-request/Glossary/rooms/doublebedroom.html A single Sleeper and Single Sleeper Grand Class are Double Bedrooms with the upper berth removed. A Classic Pullman is a 1950s version of the Double Bedroom, known to Pullman Standard, the Pullman Company, and fanatics as the "Type S Bedroom." The Parlor Suite appears to be two Double Bedrooms permanently opened to each other. In the Pullman Days, the wall between two DBR was a folding partition, capable of being opened to a space for four.
THIS IS A COMPARTMENT: Amtrakers know it as a Deluxe Bedroom. The lower berth of an Amtrak Bedroom is the only bed in AMtrak's repetoire which has the footprint (but not necessarily the comfort; I've slept in both) of a Pullman standard berth. A Pullman Compartment has 42 square feet, the same footprint as an Amtrak Deluxe BR. Amtrak's space has a shower, Pullman spaces did not. http://www.aaprco.com/charter-request/Glossary/rooms/compartment.html There Grand Suite may be a re-worked Compartment.
THIS IS A DRAWING ROOM. It had 3 berths, two lowers and an upper. It had a single annex. It had about 60 square feet of footprint. It was the largest accommodation Pullman sold on all but a very few Limited trains (the Broadway and the TWENTIETH CENTURY LIMITED come to mind): http://www.aaprco.com/charter-request/Glossary/rooms/drawing.html The Grand Luxe Classic Presidential Suite appears to be a Drawing Room with the upper berth removed.
Finally, it's about time someone put the Super back in the SUPER CHIEF. Folks who travel GL will pretty much have the experience of being on the Super. Too bad Amtrak doesn't use the Overland Route, I'd love to take the City of Los Angeles again
There will be a closed book quiz next Tuesday. Study hard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by Mr. Toy (Member # 311) on :
This is really no different from other private operators that attach their cars to scheduled Amtrak trains. The only difference is in the scale of the operation, which is much larger here. It looks like a way to kill two birds with one stone. Grandluxe gets a "budget" product and coverage over a wider area, while Amtrak gets some extra income.
I notice that the schedules are not exactly offering daily service. Thus I don't see this as a replacement for existing sleeper service, but rather as a supplement to it. Sort of like the luxury suites on the top floor of the hotel where I work.
But I have just one note of caution. In 2000 I was on the Zephyr when it had, I think, six private luxury cars attached. Actually they were at the front end of the train. The additional cars required stopping the train twice at service stops to service both the Amtrak and private cars separately. This added a fairly significant delay to our arrival in Emeryville.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
Mr. PullmanCo, thanks for the refresher. I am suprised Grandluxe doesn't refurbish a 10rmte-6dbr car for the few single travelers. Could offer a slightly lower rate yet have more capacity in one car.
I wonder if their cars will include one for the crew. When I saw it in Savannah last year they did have a couple crew cars including one with lounge/cafeteria? space. Probably not necessary on the one night out trains, but I would think one might be necessary on the transcons.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doodlebug: [*]What is the motivation of each of the parties to cooperate, i.e., how do Amtrak and GrandLuxe each expect to benefit from the arrangement?
I'm merely making a guess here but what if GrandLuxe is doing this as the equivalent of a 'positioning cruise'? Rather than deadhead empty equipment cross-country to their next scheduled cruise suppose they are experimenting with hitching a ride on the back of a regular Amtrak train and trying to generate a little revenue in the process.
Amtrak gains revenue from a 'private charter' and, unlike a string of roadrailers, the host railroads are unlikely to be concerned that Amtrak is getting the contract instead.
(Yes.....I know that just 7 GrandLuxe cars at a time is not enough to do a tour using their existing business model.....perhaps there is going to be some experimentation with that as well?)
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
First let us note that this $100 bar tab credit applies only to the Grand Luxe/Amtrak partnership.
Secondly, this is a page out of the Love Tubs playbook; they have often offered "shipboard credits' as a discount of sorts whenever bookings on a sailing are expected to be light. I once had such with Holland America on a January 1981 cruise where the ship was barely half sold.
Since the markup on alcoholic beverages is so high, the $100 credit represents likely not more than $15 out of the cookie jar to their beverage vendor, it is a good way to give a $100 discount for the price of $15.
But this also tells me this "Luxe" is not selling as well as first anticipated; stay tuned for some deep discounts.
Posted by Mike Smith (Member # 447) on :
So... Anyone know how many guest reward points this will take???
Posted by royaltrain (Member # 622) on :
Mr Smith you may want to read my posting about the Grandluxe e-mail. There are no points involved, just a $100 credit to AGR members.
Posted by sbalax (Member # 2801) on :
In our litigious society, I'd bet we'll see someone either sue or threaten a suit for discrimination against non-drinkers!
The cruise lines do, indeed, avoid this by offering blanket "on board credits" under a variety of circumstances. We, for example, get as much as $250.00 per cabin on Celebrity, RCCL, and Azamara because we bought 100 shares of RCCL stock.
Frank in Sunny SBA
Posted by Kiernan (Member # 3828) on :
Why would anyone pay premium prices for a ride on a single-decker train between LA and Chicago? All you can see out the window is the fence. The Amtrak cars are MUCH nicer.
Posted by Mr. Toy (Member # 311) on :
What fence?
Posted by Kiernan (Member # 3828) on :
The ones that keep the cows off the tracks in New Mexico.
Posted by DeeCT (Member # 3241) on :
Many trips through New Mexico --- we are not talking high, solid, privacy type fence that blocks the view. As a matter of fact I can not even recall where there is fence.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
It is now a whole new ballgame regarding my possible use of such for my '08 Florida trip.
Posted by TBlack (Member # 181) on :
Gilbert, I thought you take the Auto train to FLA; what happens to your car?
Tom
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Well, now that I've learned the only '08 Grand Luxe SB voyage departs Wash Jan 02, probably it will be on an AT rack if I first drive to the NE to visit with friends and/or family.
I usually go in Feb; this past season was an exception when I went during March.
Posted by rchina (Member # 5761) on :
Hello all! You may recognize my modified login name as a shorter version of rrchina necessitaed by a glitch in my system.
Kiernan, I have ridden on the Grandluxe equipment when it was the AOE and can advise it is excellent and, in my judgement, better than the AMTRAK equipment. It is certainly better maintained, especially during a trip; and the food is excellent.
Posted by royaltrain (Member # 622) on :
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: It appears that Grand Luxe has "seen the light":
It is now a whole new ballgame regarding my possible use of such for my '08 Florida trip.
Mr. Norman, Glad to hear that you are considering the Grandluxe Ltd. If you want to do a test run, how about the L.A. departure on the 28th of Dec/07? As I will be aboard that day, I would be more than pleased to buy you a bottle of deluxe wine with my $100 gift certificate (or course I would want to share it with you in the dining car).
Posted by Jerome Nicholson (Member # 3116) on :
quote:Originally posted by palmland: 20th century - you're right that $789x2 does make it pricey for one night trip. I wonder how it works if a single traveler since I don't think they offer roomettes.
I just paid $1,009 for a "Single Sleeper" with private bedroom for my December Washington - Miami trip; the return Orlando - Richmond in a Single Sleeper cost me $232 including AAA discount. No discounts on the Grand Luxe! Posted by Jerome Nicholson (Member # 3116) on :
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: It appears that Grand Luxe has "seen the light":
It is now a whole new ballgame regarding my possible use of such for my '08 Florida trip.
Yes, that's fantastic news! I'm going to Orlando, but GL said at the time of booking passengers could only ride end to end. I figured on arriving Miami late evening, then catching a Greyhound bus to Orlando; that was the best of a bunch of bad choices I had to get out of Miami. GL's reason for not allowing boarding/alighting between end popints was because of platform length.. Now, if GL decides to also board/alight people in Richmond, that'll save me from going to Washington to catch the train coming south! Im sure the Richmond platform is long enough.
Posted by PullmanCo (Member # 1138) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kiernan: The Amtrak cars are MUCH nicer.
Having ridden Union Pacific, Amtrak (Santa Fe turnkey operations), and Amtrak on its own...
Having ridden standard cars, domes, Hi-Levels, Superliners, Amfleet, and Horizon...
Having eaten Union Pacic, Amtrak (Santa Fe turnkey operations), Amtrak in the late 70s, and Amtrak post Y2K,
I'll take standard level classic cars over Amtrak any day of the week.
You've obviously not set in a dome, a full lounge car with individual seats, Sleepy Hollow (tm) coach seats, or Pullman couches by day, have you???
Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :
Doesn't Grand Luxe also include some kind of chartered bus tours after they get to their destination via the train? So in this case, what happens when the Silver Meteor is 5 or 6 hours late and screws up the schedule for the rest of the "luxury tour?"
Again -- I am AGAINST attaching Grand Luxe excursions onto existing Amtrak routes -- I have never ridden Grande Luxe (or AOE), but I have always thought it was supposed to be a unique self-contained experience which prides itself on being "top-notch" -- clean cars, top-of-the-line service, GOOD MECHANICAL CONDITION OF THE LOCOMOTIVES, and ON TIME!........
Posted by 20th Century (Member # 2196) on :
Mr.Pullman you couldn't have said it better. I always preferred the standard level classic cars. I would've seized the opportunity and booked the GrandLuxe to, or return from Florida in November, but additional travel plans in April stretch the budget to the max for me. Not complaining, I feel fortunate/thankful that I will be taking these pleasurable journeys.
Posted by DeeCT (Member # 3241) on :
quote:Originally posted by RRRICH: Doesn't Grand Luxe also include some kind of chartered bus tours after they get to their destination via the train? So in this case, what happens when the Silver Meteor is 5 or 6 hours late and screws up the schedule for the rest of the "luxury tour?"
It is my understanding that this is not in conjunction with any of Grandluxe's bus tours. It is simply a point to point trip. (During what is typically their slow season.) So lack of on time will not "screw up the rest of the tour" since there is no "rest of the tour".
Dee
Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :
Thanks a lot, Dee!! I'm glad to see that someone at this forum is reading my posts!! (I have gotten very few replies to my last few "new topic" posts from anyone!!!)
Posted by HopefulRailUser (Member # 4513) on :
I read them all Rich. You always have something interesting to say or ask.
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