According to this article, Amtrak may be looking into the idea, which would be good news for PNS. Not that I think a PNS-JAX train would see a lot of ridership. You would NEED to extend the train to New Orleans so that, at the very least, connections to CHI and the Wst could be made.
And of course, "no decision" has been made as of yet in regards to the Sunset east of NOL. SOme things never change, huh?
Posted by sojourner (Member # 3134) on :
I hope they bring the Sunset Ltd back, but it's incredible there is no train to Tallahassee now!
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
While of course thanks for sharing, really, Mr. Son, how has this article "broken any ground". To me, that Amtrak has chosen to continue their "dollar a year" (whoops, plus utilities) lease on their premises, is not exactly shaking any rafters. Your posting above suggests you are of same mind.
In short, it is a "no news article" doing nothing more than filling up space in a "small market" publication.
Finally, I gotta love the intrepid crusading reporter's knowledge of Amtrak corporate structure. Evidently, he reports that Amtrak is an NRPC subsidiary corporation. Amtrak is of course the trade name under which NRPC operates a national system of passenger trains.
Posted by Mike Smith (Member # 447) on :
All of this needs to be completed by September. I have a trip to Lake City scheduled for October 5.
Posted by Mr. Toy (Member # 311) on :
I think this is a good example of bureaucratic confusion. Amtrak has no plans to vacate the depot, and is perfectly willing to pay for upkeep of the property, yet has expressed no concrete desire to actually use it to generate revenue or provide service.
I'm trying to figure out why Amtrak would fail to resume service as soon as the tracks were reopened. Given that the Sunset has long been a favorite target of Amtrak's critics, I suspect it has to do with some sort of perverted political reasoning rather than being a business decision. Sort of a sacrificial lamb to appease the high and mighty.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
I think Mr. Toy got it exactly right, as did also Mr. Norman. Having relatives in Pensacola, I can say the PNJ is no better or worse than most other newspapers, that is, when you read about something in it, you know you have at best an approximation of what really happened. Like most newspaper people, when it comes to railroad matters, the ignorance is overwhelming. And, as Mr. Norman says, this item probably saw print primarily because it could be made to fit a space that had to be occupied to fill a page.
I think the idea of a Pensacola to Jacksonville service comes from the general Florida rail plan of a few years ago. Since the Alabama state line is about 5 miles west of Pensacola, that is as far as the plan can go as a Florida Plan. To carry on to New Orleans would require the cooperation of Alabama, Florida, and Louisiana. Since the casino interests that rule the Mississippi Gulf Coast only want the railroad to go away, and that it be done at huge taxpayer expense, there is no push for passenger service from those that own the politicians in the middle link in this chain.
George
Posted by train lady (Member # 3920) on :
I should think that the casino interests would like the railroads. If you rode the Desert Wind you may remember that the train"station" in Vegas had slots inside. I don't remember if it was an actual station or a hotel but I do remember we stopped there for at least a half hour. I wasn't interested so I stayed aboard but my husand did get off and go inside. People could come to the casinos and not worry about driving if they had rail transportation in Mississippi and think how they coould have motels and restaurants as well.
Posted by Mike Smith (Member # 447) on :
I'm surprised the Florida politicians aren't whining about the lack of service. I heard a rumor that one of the Florida politicians has some sort of connection to the White House... Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :
I don't understand why the casino interests in MS "only want the railroad to go away," as George states. I would think, as Train Lady says, that the casinos would be pushing for rail service between MS and FL to get more business.
I too think it is an unwise decison to revamp passenger rail service only between JAX and PNS -- if they do that, they need to go all the way to NOL, for the connecting passenger business.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Quite simply, Mr. Rich and Ms. Train Lady, "the railroad", or otherwise CSX with its grade level ROW through the "gaming gulch" , impedes access to the casinos. Since the publicly traded investor owned casinos must be attached to the Gulf, auto traffic must X CSX's ROW. If delays from passing trains are too long, casino patrons coming from the North may just as easily go to Native owned casinos. Remember to a gamer, it's all about "action" - and held up by a passing train is counterproductive.
Likely the ideal opportunity to relocate the railroad inland along I-10 was of course post Katrina. However CSX and their insurer decided that to rebuild the existing line was the most economical and expedient way to restore rail service. The casinos needed building materials to rebuild, Ingalls Shipbuilding in Pascagoula (whoops Northrup Grumman nowadays) is a major Defense contractor with HIGH PAYING jobs (don't find too many of those at the casinos), and is dependent upon railroad transportation. Lastly, the Port of Mobile is more competitive with an East-West rail routing than it would be with only a North-South.
Ironically, whenever the next Katrina pays a visit, we will be facing the same issues again.
And a footnote; did I forget something such as passenger trains to the casino?, 'sorry bout that' but away from this forum that is simply not on the radar screen.
Posted by Ocala Mike (Member # 4657) on :
Mike Smith et al, Florida politicians aren't "whining" about lack of Amtrak service because nobody cares, and they have bigger fish to fry. The local "good ole boys" have bigger, sexier issues such as property tax rollbacks, water conservation and usage, and builders running roughshod over the environment. All we have in Ocala is a bunch of "nimbys" who are afraid that the CSX "S" line might be relocated near them.
Also, if you are referring to Mr. Jeb as the Florida politician with ties inside the Beltway, you should be aware that he is gone since last winter, and our new Governor is Charlie Crist (a Republican, but not a Bushie).
Posted by Ocala Mike (Member # 4657) on :
Gil, I have a business interest in Pass Christian, a few miles inland from the Gulf. When I was there a few months ago, I detected absolutely no anti-CSX (or Amtrak) sentiment, only a very strong sense of "let's get the Gulf Coast back to pre-Katrina normalcy as soon as possible".
Given the fact that the CSX ROW is going to continue its existence between I-10 and the casinos, I fail to see why the casinos wouldn't embrace a train a day in each direction serving Biloxi, Gulfport, Bay St. Louis, and Pascagoula.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
No doubt, Mike, part of the "get back to normal ASAP" was part of the decision to rebuild the CSX line in place.
No one wants another Katrina (hopefully not even those in a religious community that may contend Katrina was God's vengeance against the "Sin Coast") but I think we all know, folks, our weather is starting to act a bit strange of late.
Posted by Mr. Toy (Member # 311) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike Smith: I'm surprised the Florida politicians aren't whining about the lack of service.
Ah, but they are. Problem is these are people who have no influence in Washington. NARP's May '07 newsletter listed a number of politicians and transportation officials who have petitioned Amtrak to resume service. They include:
-Nazih Haddad, Manager of passenger rail development for the Florida DOT.
-John Marks, Mayor of Tallahassee
-Robert Apgar, Mayor of DeLand Florida
-Brad Purcell, Chairman of Putnam County (state not identified) Board of Commissioners.
-Linda Cain, Mayor of Chipley, Florida.
-A.J. Holloway, Mayor of Biloxi, Mississippi
-Howard Shell, Mayor of Atmore, Alabama
-New Orleans City Council (resolution #06-301 passed on July 20, 2006)
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
And while we are getting outside Florida, a look at this web site could be enlightening:
This is the site of the Southern Rapid Rail Transit Commission which has several reports relating to studies of the New Orleans to Mobile to Pensacola line for potential passenger service. A lot of very good information about the existing railroad can be found there.
This is the group behind the short lived (April 29, 1984 to January 6, 1985) Mobile to New Orleans train during the New Orleans World's Fair. The train actually ran for a few months after the fair ended because ridership exceeded projections. Amtrak projected 23 passenger- miles per train-mile, but during the five-month period of the World’s Fair the train carried an average of 229 passengers a day.
The commission directors and members are from Alabama, Louisiana, and Mississippi. They are not completely ineffective. Recall that Hattiesburg just got their station completely refurbished and the city made a big production of it being done.
In the reports there is a lengthy discussion on the condition and traffic on the CSX line that includes quite a few pictures. It is obvious that it needs considerable work to reliably carry passenger trains, particularly several trains a day, which is necessary for a short corridor to attract meaningful ridership.
George
Posted by Ocala Mike (Member # 4657) on :
Mr. Toy, conspicuous by his absence from your list of politicos in support of Amtrak service east of NOL is Mayor John Peyton of Jacksonville, FL.
Do you think it might have anything to do with Jacksonville being a "CSX city"?
Posted by sojourner (Member # 3134) on :
I think the idea of moving the trains inland was a passing one and that is gone now. Now the CSX tracks are rebuilt where they were, a done deal, so what Ocala Mike says makes sense--if the rr tracks are already there, why not have trains bringing in business from populous FL and TX? But for this to work, I think you need a DAILY train, not that 3x a week deal. I think there ought to be a daily train Orlando or JAX to San Antonio. Westbound it can continue on to Los Angeles 3x a week, on days the Texas Eagle doesn't (and then we wouldn't need all the delinking, I don't think).
Another Republican who is not a Bushie is Mississippi's Trent Lott, who is also one of the Republican Senate supporters for Amtrak. I think all of us train fans who will use the SL ought to start phoning or writing his Senate office to say we want the train, or a train from Orlando or at least Jacksonville to New Orleans or (better) San Antonio (that stops in Houston), and tell him if it were DAILY train we'd all stop in Biloxi overnight! Also we can write letters to local MI and AL papers, and casinos too if someone can supply addresses. I don't understand why the gambling interests wouldn't want people coming in by train. Heck, taking a train to gamble is a time-honored tradition. Sittin in the parlor car, smoking a big seegar, playin poker on the way to play more poker . . . well, not me, but you know what I mean. . . .
I also think there ought to be a train from Orlando or JAX to Chicago thru Atlanta and Nashville, as I've said before.
Posted by Ocala Mike (Member # 4657) on :
sojourner, when it happens, save me a seat at one of the 25c slot machines at the Island View Casino in Gulfport. From there, I can either visit my partner's horse farm in Pass Christian or watch one of his horses race at the Fair Grounds in New Orleans.
Posted by sojourner (Member # 3134) on :
Haha, Ocala Mike. BTW, I meant to ask, do you think John Mica's tirades against Amtrak might have to do with him being the "Congressman from CSX"? I mean, is he?
Posted by NativeSon5859 (Member # 2993) on :
The thing is, with this whole situation, Amtrak is missing out on two things:
1) A really good oppurtunity to increase ridership on the Sunset Limited
2) A really good P.R oppurtunity
Just imagine all of the cameras that would be there for the "re-inagural" Sunset Limited out of Orlando...and at all the towns along the way. Amtrak needs all the good press it can get these days. It would be a sign that Amtrak is there for the Gulf Coast region. You can't put a price tag on that kind of press.
Overall, there is no reason to assume that cities like Gulfport, Biloxi, Mobile, Pensacola, and Tallahassee cannot provide some good passenger counts. Heck, if they had some sort of seasonal shuttle from Crestview to the beaches, that would draw a good number of people from the New Orleans area on its own who wouldn't want to put up with the I-10 drive! New Orleanians love to vacation in the Destin area.
There are all sorts of great things that Amtrak could do to help this portion of the route be a success. Form a partnership with Beau Rivage, perhaps...they could bring in frequent gamblers to the casino from the NOLA, Mobile, and Pensacola areas by train, sort of like what the airlines do.
If CSX could get the trains through in a reasonable time frame, it would be a really viable travel alternative for folks living in those cities who need to head to NOLA or L.A or Orlando or anywhere in between.
But at the end of the day, I'm just ready for a definite "yes or no". I know this area in general, and I know that the train, if ran correctly, could be a great one once again.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Ms. Sojourner--
Rep. John L. Mica's (R-7th-FL) District includes the Auto Train facilities in Sanford.
Gilbert - with all due respect to you and your post of several posts up (I haven't looked at this forum for a couple days), do you REALLY think people from the North are going to stop driving to the casinos in Biloxi because they had to wait a few minutes for a train to pass at a railroad crossing?
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Likely not, Mr. Rich, you have a point.
But gamers do tend to be Type A, and if all they are looking for is some quick action at the tables, a delay by a slow moving train could be a factor to seek out Native-owned casinos located elsewhere.
Speaking for myself, about three years ago I chose to change banks. I know one factor, hardly the deciding factor, was that the bank I went to is on "my side of the tracks, as distinct from the other".
Posted by sojourner (Member # 3134) on :
I think there are all kinds of gamesters. I met several very patient gamblers on the SW Chief. They had gone all the way from Syracuse NY to Las Vegas on the train--by coach--including some kind of middle of the night stop to catch a bus to Vegas. They seemed to enjoy seeing the country on the way!
But getting back to the Sunset Ltd, I really do think having a train only 3 times a week makes it difficult for people who are just traveling to get from one place to another. I think it's bad for business.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
Sojourner: Mississippi is MS. MI is Michigan.
A couple of things of interest from the various reports in www.srrtc.org : The line is near dead flat so there are no slow trains due to upgrades. Slow speeds on it usually relate to trains pulling into or out of sidings or waiting for trains to clear up into the sidings. Most of these are 25 mph, as is the speed restriciton on the movable bridges, of which there are several, but the 10 mph crawl would be unlikely on this line.
When the Gulf Coast Special, or whatever its name was ran in 1984 it carried very respectable passenger loadings, so a day train across from New Orleans to Mobile should carry a nice number of people. Unfortunately the increase in freight traffic since then says the track capacity is a problem. Connecting siding to give sections of double track would be a very good idea, or simply double track the whole thing between long bridges, which would be relatively cheap, as there is almost no grading involved.
Yes the line has suffered significant hurricane damage three times in the last 50 years, but it had been almost 40 years since the last time. Katrina can be considered as an every couple hundred years event, so to use it to justify pulling up the whole thing makes no sense. (Whatever Al Gore is full of, it is not good sense. Global warming, even if real, and even if human induced, will not make that big a difference in the frequency and severity of Gulf hurricanes.)
Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :
As Kenny Rogers sings:
"....On a warm summer's evening On a train bound for nowhere I met up with a gamblerr We were both too tired to sleep......."
Gamblers and trains have always gone together!!!!!
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
I think Mr. Harris' posting above represents a fair assessment of the environment regarding the resumption of any passenger service along the Gulf Coast, be it a restoration of the preexisting services i.e. Sunset, Gulf Coast Spl, or some new proposal.
Regarding the restoration of the Sunset, the issues simply are CSX track capacity, "they're rid of it now", nobody, save the advocacy groups, really wants it back (and YES folks, I have ridden it for ORL-NOL-CHI itineraries and if it were restored could well ride it again), it always had the weakest ridership of the LD fleet, and the 'alternate transportation" argument made in connection with the Builder or Cardinal, is simply a "non applicable".
Now regarding other proposals such as the Gulf Coast Special. I too had learned that train had respectable patronage and held such even after the NO World's Fair closed, but then, in common with any scheduled passenger train operation in the World, "no money, no Biloxi".
Casino gaming had not come to the Gulf Coast when the Special ran circa 1984-85. If gaming is to be a draw (if anyone wonders why I avoid the term gambling, think of the line of script from the movie "Havana' where card player Robert Redford says 'we try to keep the gambling down to a minimum"), one could hardly expect Alabama and Miss to "cough up' to take gamers and other tourists AWAY from their own venues. Likewise, with a reverse schedule i.e. leave NO in the AM return in evening, the NO tourism interests would be heard from.
And finally, lest we forget, the region has clearly had a Katrina population loss that likely will never recover.
Posted by NativeSon5859 (Member # 2993) on :
The population of the N.O metro area is still down about 250,000 last I heard. But it's still an area of over one million people. Mobile metro area is 500,000+. Gulfport/Biloxi metro is over 200,000. Sure there has been a big population loss between New Orleans and Biloxi, specifically, but many of those people have returned to the area, maybe not where they lived before, but to the respective metro areas.
Not that when looking at population figures you should look at just the city estimates (rather, look at the metro figures as a whole), but our "glorious" mayor Nagin said the city of New Orleans now estimates 300,000 people living here now. You'll likely see it pass 400,000 in a couple of years once the housing supply continues to increase. There's more good news going on down here than people think.
Fact is, there are enough people living between New Orleans and Jacksonville to warrant Amtrak service.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
Mr. Norman:
LEGAL gambling may not have been on the Miss. Gulf Coast in 1984, but Biloxi in particular has always had a large dose of sleaze. Even when Miss. was legally still a dry state you could find all the alcoholic lubricant you wanted there, plus gambling, prostitution, name it and it was there. The gambling, at least was very open. When there once as a kid of about 10, I could have walked up to fed and pulled the arm on a slot machine. The thing stopping me was my father, and nothing else.
George
Posted by Ocala Mike (Member # 4657) on :
When I was stationed at Keesler AFB in Biloxi, 1964-1965, I used to frequent a really seedy old-time "horse room" complete with chalk boards and guys with green visors. I later found out it was "off limits" to military personnel.
Mr. Harris, I could be wrong but I believe Harrison, Hancock, and maybe another county or two in MS were legally "wet" counties while the rest of the state was "dry."
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Yes Mike, I too heard warnings that if you were to be sent to Keesler for training - even upgrade training as an NCO and hence avoiding "Spike's Chicken S---' (save the filter the bother), watch out for the "Biloxi Boys".
I never was,
But with respect to you Mr. Native Son and the region you obviously "hold dear", I really had "seen enough" of the entire area from the windows of The Pan American (Dec 70), and the Sunset (Feb 02, Feb 04). As far as New Orleans layovers, on the '70 trip connecting to the Sunset, the "Pan" was way late and the connection was made at Carrollton Ave. During the '02 trip laying over to connect with the "City", I did walk over to the Stephen Ambrose WWII Museum and was quite impressed. During the '04 layover, I merely sat in the Magnolia Lounge 'for the duration".
But I must give NO credit for one thing in this life - a "photo op" of the Gulf Wind's Obs "Royal--' I took during Jan '65 that TRAINS published in the May issue that year.
Posted by NativeSon5859 (Member # 2993) on :
Mr. Norman, how did you like the Magnolia Lounge? I was in there one time about a year ago and...well...it left quite a bit to be desired.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Where else Mr.Native? As far as I'm concerned there is nothing of interest to me in New Orleans.
I know and respect you and others here disagree; but that is simply my thoughts.
It mattered not in what kind of condition was Magnolia Lounge; it was a sanctuary from the Greyhound station and appartently now the city jail.
Posted by NativeSon5859 (Member # 2993) on :
Thankfully, Mr. Norman, the city stopped using the bus/train station as a jail a little over a year ago. It has been "spruced up" up a little bit, with new paint and a new air conditioning system, and a good floor scrubbing. It probably looks as good as it has ever since I've been using it for the last 20 years or so. Now the exterior of the building needs a good cleaning...but at least the inside is more inviting for passengers.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ocala Mike: Mr. Harris, I could be wrong but I believe Harrison, Hancock, and maybe another county or two in MS were legally "wet" counties while the rest of the state was "dry."
Not sure of some of the details of the changes in legalization, but at the time I was talking about it was 1955 and I was 10 years old. I am fairly certain that there were the main areas pushing for legalization, and probably exising and a few new bars all over the place suddenly became "public" and open the same day the law allowed.
Posted by Pojon (Member # 3080) on :
We have waited too long for resumption of the Sunset Limited east to Orlando, Florida from New Orleans! How much longer do we have to wait! I have to go to Tallahassee and Pensacola from Palatka, FL and cannot! What are Floridians, second-class citizens?
Posted by Mike Smith (Member # 447) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pojon: We have waited too long for resumption of the Sunset Limited east to Orlando, Florida from New Orleans! How much longer do we have to wait! I have to go to Tallahassee and Pensacola from Palatka, FL and cannot! What are Floridians, second-class citizens?
Write your State legislators. Write you US congress critters. Write your governor.
And do it quick!!! I need a ride to Lake City in October!
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Mr. Pojon, Mr. Smith has a point, but when all is said and done, Sunset East is never coming back.
CSX has no need for it, Amtrak is not "pushing" for its restoration, and it does not appear to have any patron saint out there (Sen. Lott R-MS is far more concerned that Ingalls has rail access so that it remain a viable Defense contractor than he ever is whether the Sunset East rolls again) and finally Amtrak "stats" establish it was the weakenst LD out there.
Accept it, it's gone; regardless of whatever "temporalilly suspended" tripe the Amtrak timetable and website is pushing!!!
Lastly, remember I rode it ORL-NOL both in '02 and '04; while it made for a diverse routing on my Florida journeys from Chicago, I'm not about to hop on the bandwagon of whatever advocacy group chooses to support Sunset East's resumption.
Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :
It's true that the "Sunset East" was never that well patronized between NOL and Florida, but, as has been said by others, for us living in Florida, it sure is a lot easier to get to New Orleans and points in the southwest directly on the Sunset, rather than have to go up to Washington DC on an old, poorly maintained 5-hr late Silver Service train on lousy tracks, then backtrack on the Crescent to NOL, and it also wastes an extra night on board (for those who actually care about how much time they spend on the train). My wife and I sure could have used the Sunset East last Christmas when we had to travel to Bay St Louis, MS for a family funeral -- it sure would have beat the 12-hour drive!
As Gilbert said, the route probably won't come back, but I wish AMTRAK would make up its mind soon and tell us, rather than keep it listed as "temporarily suspended" -- and, like others, we can always hope that it will come back some day in a future life.........
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
quote:Originally posted by RRRICH: It's true that the "Sunset East" was never that well patronized between NOL and Florida,
Actually, it was fairly well patronized, particularly when considering its rather slow schedule. For example in the September 22, 1993 accident at Bayou Canot, it was carrying 202 passengers. Once more, "empty train" fails to be real when the light is turned on.
Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :
George - I think maybe at first the SL was fairly well patronized (before the Bayou Canot accident, when the NOL-Fla. service itself was still fairly new), but I have ridden the Sunset a few times since then between L.A. and Florida, and in most cases, the last day of the trip (after New Orleans), the lounge car was like a ghost town, with maybe 4 or 5 people in it, while the previous day, west of NOL, it was packed.
Posted by NativeSon5859 (Member # 2993) on :
Well, the lounge car analogy is hit or miss. Last week on the Crescent the lounge was virtually empty the entire time and they had 180 people on the train. On the City of New Orleans out of CHI, even though it is usually booked to capacity, the lounge sometimes is totally empty.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
The only way to really know the load, for the coach part at least, is to walk the train. With sleepers a closed door is a closed door whether or not there is a body or bodies behind it.
Regardless of when or if the train comes back, this is a line that begs and screams for both capacity and speed improvements.
New Orleans to Flomaton needs partial double tracking, Full would be better, but if it could be done in 10 mile plus sections with less than 10 miles between them, that would help a lot. Figure that the bridges are unlikely to ever get a second track, at least out of CSX's pocket.
Flomaton to Tallahassee needs signals so the 59 mph limit can be lifted, plus of course several more long sidings. East of Tallahassee probably some siding extensions, and maybe a couple of new ones would be nice. Aside from reliability improvements, the average speed between Flomatan and Tallahassee could probably increase by about 10 mph even without any increases in curve speeds.
It is only a problem of money - - like so many other things.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)