I'm not picking on anyone in particular but it irks me a little that hyphens are now done by everyone the exact opposite of they way they're supposed to be.
Right: The plane will take off. Wrong: The plane will takeoff. Wrong: The plane will take-off.
Right: Prepare for takeoff! Right: Prepare for take-off!
Look it up in a grammar book. If anyone claims that a 180-degree turn from this is now correct grammar, there better have been a good reason.
Posted by musicfan (Member # 4673) on :
Don't mean to start an argument, but I think the "right" grammar, use and spelling of words over the centuries has been whatever the common use was and whatever was understandable. If people understand what someone else is saying, then it's right in everyway except maybe in some school assignment. Who decided what was right in the first place? I'm just finishing up reading an older book from the late 1600's (pilgrims progress), and the author, Mr. John Bunyan spells "music", "musick". I know what he means. Being an amateur musician who plays by chords and ear, I run into this type of discussion with people like my sister who play music from "classical" notes. She and others who play this way seem to think there is a "right" way and a "wrong" way to play music like it's a math question. For me, and others in my camp, it's just whatever sounds cool. Me and my sister just have to agree to disagree. I personally think spelling, language and therefore grammar is very close to art and music, and very far away from math. So we will probably have to agree to disagree also. Respectfully,
Posted by 4020North (Member # 4081) on :
I think as long as it's kept respectful and people don't lose their cool, there's nothing wrong with a good argument. I'm not saying that uneducated speech and writing means that what a person says is wrong or that they aren't very smart (although as English teachers point out, it can give that impression). Plenty of intelligent people are not talented writers. However, if you are making a sign (especially one that's plastered everywhere I have to look at), writing instructions, a book or any other kind of formal writing, there are definite conventions. The reason for those conventions is simply so that what is said or written is understood correctly. If style changes, so be it, but people like me don't like to change without reason. I fail to see how forgetting the rules about dashes and then changing them to "opposite" should become part of standard English. Like I say I don't disrespect people who do things the other way, but I think there is more than trivial cause for teaching those kids their grammar.
Posted by 4020North (Member # 4081) on :
PS I'm not talking about internet message boards, but formal writing
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
-I'm always glad to participate in an argument about language -- but what do hyphens have to do with railroading, let alone Amtrak? How did they get in here, anyway?
Posted by musicfan (Member # 4673) on :
P.S. One issue with the hyphens on the internet might actually be Yahoo! I have yahoo email and when I use spell check or is it spell-check, it's always inserting hyphens where I haven't put them in before. For people like me who don't have a good grasp of punctuation, it's difficult to figure out. Yahoo seems to do this thing with the hyphens much more than any other computer program I've ever used, so that might be why hyphen missuse is more common on the internet since yahoo! is so widely used.
But everybody has their own personal writing quirks. I'm always writing sentences that are really, really, really, really long, and like to use lots of "parentheses" or italics if the program lets me.
Posted by 4020North (Member # 4081) on :
Musicfan, I think spell-check and spell check are both correct. Sorry for the misplaced topic. Perhaps we are done, but if anyone would like to continue it somewhere else I will be happy to.
Posted by Kiernan (Member # 3828) on :
See Strunk and White, Elements of Style, any edition.
Posted by Ira Slotkin (Member # 81) on :
This is not one of my trainku, but the topic isn't trains either.
The Ungrammatical Poet
The quality of a piece of prose May be measured by knowledge the author shows About leaving infinitives to split and dribble, Or the indefatigable participle. Proper phrases, e.g. those adverbial, Prove to be a problem proverbial; Profuse punctuation (and alliteration) Prompt problems in a recitation; I have no doubt the subjective conjunction Plays some significant rhetorical function; Where to insert a semi-colon Has suffered the spirit of many a solon; The dash – as distinguished from the hyphen – Ante and precedes a phrase to enlighten, Rather than splitting or joining two words Which would otherwise flee, each free as a bird.
‘Tis a burden in prose or in poems to be using Good grammar’s rules, they can be quite confusing. Although I concede: grammar that’s watched Is grammar well read, grammar top notched; Follow the rules and what one has to say Will gracefully rise like smoke o’er the fray. Still, I gratefully sighs ‘cause poetic license Exempts me from any grammatical crisis. I hope those whom my errors have thusly abused Are moved, or are touched, or dare I hope amused; Then I shan't be chastised for guidelines discarded. Please attribute to anarchist views (held whole-hearted) My pattern and practice (and possibly worse) Of pitiful grammar, but pithy verse.
Ira
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kiernan: See Strunk and White, Elements of Style, any edition.
Ah......required reading by my University when I went off to grad school. One of the best writing guides I ever had.
Now if I could find it and actually use it fifteen years after the fact, it would be great.
Posted by train lady (Member # 3920) on :
Considering the fact that this is a rail forum not a language usage one we should just accept each other as we are and not worry about "grammer,speling, or semanticks." Since the chances a train will take-off, take off or whatever is slim I think we do not need to worry about that either.
Posted by musicfan (Member # 4673) on :
How about everyone just be required to watch "My Fair Lady". Then we would learn that the rain in spain falls mainly in the plain and how one needs to speak and write well, but also how ridiculous it is to obsess about it. Wouldn't it be loverly to-be-on-a-train-ride-right-now-instead-of-discussing-grammar?
Posted by train lady (Member # 3920) on :
You are so right, musicfan.
Posted by CHATTER (Member # 1185) on :
Why does the OP's title ask about dashes, then proceed to discuss hyphens? These are two entirely different pieces of punctuation, used for entirely different reasons. Posted by 4020North (Member # 4081) on :
Chatter, I stand corrected. Thanks to you and Ira for clarifying what a dash really is.
Train Lady, we could be talking instead about on-time departures (or lack thereof) that seem to be a problem with certain Amtrak trains.
Posted by Geoff M (Member # 153) on :
Dare I mention the humble apostrophe? You know, the one that creeps in when unwanted, and is nowhere to be seen when it is required?
In general terms - and, being English, there may well be exceptions - an apostrophe should only be used for missing letters and to denote ownership, but NEVER to to denote plurals.
One way to see whether your apostrophe is needed is to expand the apostrophe into the "missing" letters, if appropriate. For example, "it's going to rain" quite happily expands into "it is going to rain". But "The train at it's best" doesn't make sense when saying "The train at it is best". CD's, DVD's, pizza's, and 1900's are all wrong as there is no ownership nor are there any missing letters.
Anyway, lesson over. The apostrophe CAN change the context of a sentence so I believe it is fairly important. Agreed that you can usually understand a sentence even if it's wrong but it looks sloppy and uncared for if misused.
Geoff M.
Posted by TALKrr (Member # 683) on :
I have been corrected on two different boards now for what has been called my copious use of quotations marks.
I guess I better limit their use to quotations before I irk someone else !
I guess I must apologize for makiing my entries difficult to read and offending those who are sticklers for good grammar.
To make matters worse, I am a retired elementary teacher. Shame on me.
In the future I will certainly make every effort to be more thoughtful.
Forgive me if I misused the comma.
Posted by Judy McFarland (Member # 4435) on :
I must agree with the grammar police. Misspelled, misused, and incorrectly pronounced (common) words drive me batty. It's not that hard to put the dreaded apostrophe in its proper place.
Posted by TwinStarRocket (Member # 2142) on :
Like, you know, the language gets kinda butchered all the time and, you know, it's like nice to know someone cares. I prefer to be corrected and learn.
But I would rather no one is discouraged from contributing for fear their grammar, spelling or punctuation is going to be criticized.
Posted by Geoff M (Member # 153) on :
From my experience, even suggesting that somebody's spelling/grammar/punctuation is wrong results in the need for a flame-proof suit. I therefore avoid the trouble in the first place by not bothering to reply to anybody who can't be bothered to write a decent sentence. Note that there is a difference between "can't be bothered" and "isn't too sure", and that difference can usually be seen (agreeing with Mr. TSR there).
Lately I've been wondering whether the politicians can get some sort of law passed that any commercial advertisement must contain a reasonable attempt at English. Otherwise, what do the school kids learn? If they see a shop sign that says "Video's for sale", they will believe that that is the correct way of writing it. Or, possibly my worst experience, a huge shop front board saying, "Shop's in Devise's, Chippenham, and Trowbridge" - the "Devise's" actually being the name of the town called "Devizes". Argh!
And how is it, aside from idiosyncrasies, that speakers of a first language other than English frequently have a better grasp of English than ourselves?
Geoff M.
Posted by Mr. Toy (Member # 311) on :
Hey, yawl, I jus wanna take a Am-trak trip one o' these here days, so can we all git back to talkin' trains?
Posted by TwinStarRocket (Member # 2142) on :
If one's choice of words is judged by how well the author communicates his point, Mr. Toy wins. Ira certainly gets the nod for creativity. Huck Finn and Tom Sawyer are hereby admonished for failing to follow the rules of "Elements of Style".
A diverse variety of linguistic talents and styles makes this forum a fun read. One of my favorite trainweb replies was from Jonathon after someone had posted a very confusing and complex message. It was simply "huh?".
Mr. Norman has taught me how to effectively use the word "such" as an object. But I am still intrigued by his unmatched beginning and ending "quote' marks. I suspect it has some purpose I am unaware of, but I was afraid to ask.
And don't you wish the younger generation believed effective use of language was as challenging as video games?
What has any of this to do with Amtrak, or bagpipes, or ponies? Nothing, but all trains and no nonsense makes Jack a dull foamer.
But maybe this discussion can be related to trains. Many of us (trainweb members) believe we should have more choices for transportation (than cars and planes). I propose we should also have more options in communication. Bad grammar or spelling should not deter anyone from communicating. A homogenized population of mutually shared values is not something I welcome. I ride trains to see people and places that have nothing in common with me.
Then again, maybe I am just rambling aimlessly after 3 beers.
Posted by Boyce (Member # 2719) on :
I also have had 2 or 3 beers and I agree with everybody but when is the Sunset east coming back?
Posted by train lady (Member # 3920) on :
Your point is well taken, TSR. One of the things that makes this forum so interesting is the fact that we are people of all ages, opinions (and do we have opinions!!) gender etc. It reminds me of one of my fathers sayings, "If a married couple always agrees on everything one of them isn't necessary". I would say that also applies to this forum.
Posted by cubzo (Member # 4700) on :
Being an 8th grade dropout I found this thread to be quite interesting. Leaving school as early as I did left me like a blind man feeling my through life. At times I envy those who completed school. But then I realize that all my life's experiences whether positive or negative make up the fabric of who I am. So even though I agree that proper use of a language is the best communication tool we have, I also believe, Damn the spellcheck and full speed ahead. Why havn't they created grammar check yet? All spelling and grammar errors on this post are the sole property of the poster.
Posted by Mr. Toy (Member # 311) on :
Some forums have an "off-topic" section where the members can chat about whatever they want. Perhaps the time is right to start something like that here.
The Banjo Hangout has such a section. But they have one strictly enforced rule that nobody can discuss religion or politics.
Posted by Ira Slotkin (Member # 81) on :
And so we now have banjos added to the railroad flat car carrying ponies, kilt-clad pipers, beer drinking foamers, muse crazed poets, and who knows what/whom else. I like this. "Such" is a forum. A funny thing happened on the way here...
Now where is my Shiner Bock....?
Ira
Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :
So, how can we get back to a train discussion? Hmmmmmm -- OK, anyone seen any DASH locomotives lately? (Hah!)
(I admit --poor attempt at humor -- let's get back to the ponies, bagpipers, and banjos and such!)
Posted by Mr. Toy (Member # 311) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ira Slotkin: And so we now have banjos added to the railroad flat car carrying ponies, kilt-clad pipers, beer drinking foamers, muse crazed poets, and who knows what/whom else.
It was this banjo picker we met in the Pacific Parlour Car three years ago who inspired me to take up the banjo myself.
Banjos and trains go together better than bagpipes and trains, I think.
Posted by train lady (Member # 3920) on :
Banjos inded go well with trains. We did an excursiion in CT from Essex to ?(help you New englanders)and then at the end of the train ride we were taken to the Ct river for a boat trip back. On the train there was a banjo player. His music really set the atmosphere for all of us. I don't think we could have managed listening to the bagpipes for that long a trip.
Posted by TwinStarRocket (Member # 2142) on :
We should all carry onto trains a recording of "Million Mile Man (The Ballad of Chris G.)", and give it to any Amtrak rider carrying a banjo so they can learn it.
Posted by Mr. Toy (Member # 311) on :
The Ballad of Chris G.
Come and listen to a story 'bout a man named Chris, Got aboard a train, rode to that and then to this, Bought a lot more tickets and before you know it he, Had rode a million miles and now he's celebrity.
Million Mile Man, That's what they call him now. Nice guy, Be sure to wave at him, y' hear?
(I hope I have used punctuation correctly.)
Posted by Railroad Bob (Member # 3508) on :
Sigh--- where is Mr. Norman when we need him? I am easing back in-to the original topic--grammatical use of d-a-s-h-e-s. Maybe GBN will chime in-- or at least wax eloquently as he is wont to do.
wont= inclined, apt- but add an apostrophe and you get: won't, as in- he won't dare post in this thread. Sorry to be so wonky--- Posted by Doc Brown (Member # 4724) on :
Back to the dashes. I took a business writing class a few years ago. The first thing they told us was to throw out what we were taught in college writing courses. It doesn't apply in the real world. There are only a few "rules" that still make sense to follow. Most of it has to do with things like the use of "accept" and "except". Much of what is considered "acceptable grammar" is actually an individual decision. The key to good communication is in being succinct. Lets put it into perspective. We're not writing for an English professor. We're writing about trains. 'Nuff said...
Posted by Ira Slotkin (Member # 81) on :
There are only a few "rules" that still make sense to follow. Most of it has to do with things like the use of "accept" and "except". Much of what is considered "acceptable grammar" is actually an individual decision.
Well, then, everything goes. That makes it all "exceptable" grammar; or pehaps exceptional grammar, except when it is not, and I have to accept that, as well.
Oh, pipe down. Or pony up with your own thoughts.
Ira
Posted by Mr. Toy (Member # 311) on :
IMHO, as long as something is written so that the reader can understand its meaning, the grammar is good enough. Everything else is window dressing.
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
In my even humbler opinion, everything depends on the audience the writer is addressing. If that is composed of Mr. and Mrs. Joe Six-pack, no amount of grammatical nicety will enhance understanding of a message. But if the audience is one of cultured and educated people, then precise and shapely language will win their attention. One can be loose and relaxed if writing for, say, the People magazine fan, but not if one's target reads the New Yorker.
Posted by cubzo (Member # 4700) on :
Joe Six-Pack! Hey I resemble that remark!
Posted by train lady (Member # 3920) on :
I was going to suggest that we now close Pandora's box and get back to trains. Then it occurred to me...why don't we just keep this thread open for a discussion on things unrelated to trains that people wish to discuss. The regular posters seem to be able to respectfully disagree with each other, inject some humor and generally enjoy themselves. Well, just a thought.
Posted by TwinStarRocket (Member # 2142) on :
Yes, Train Lady. An occassional "stream of consciousness" thread would broaden our horizons. And since I am strictly into 12 packs, the level of grammatical expertise must be adjusted upward slightly when I am being addressed.
Posted by train lady (Member # 3920) on :
Then,TSR, you had best turn down the bagpipes so you can hear us more clearly.
Posted by Beacon Hill (Member # 4431) on :
Going way off topic here, but I noticed that an earlier post thanked Mr. Norman for educating us on how to use the word "such" as an object. I too, have a thank you to extend to Mr. Norman. I am a collector of word sequences like MASS-MESS-MISS-MOSS-MUSS or PAT-PET-PIT-POT-PUT. I don't know if there is a proper name for these word sequences, but the consonants stay the same while the vowel changes. If all 5 vowels create words found in the dictionary, the sequence goes into my collection. Surprisingly, there are very few such sequences. Finding one is like finding a rare butterfly or getting a 1908 penny in your change. But one day--reading a GBN post that contained the phrase " LEST we forget"--I realized "EUREKA!!!" LAST- LEST -LIST-LOST-LUST.
Posted by Ira Slotkin (Member # 81) on :
Not so far off topic. That last list looked like a lovely little train set to me.
Ira
Posted by Mr. Toy (Member # 311) on :
Say it several times out loud and it even sounds like a train.
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
Slap-slep-slip-slop-slup?
One sleps a bag onto a train. To slup is to mishandle a soup spoon on the way to the chin. That's my argument and I'm sticking to it. (Of course I lose Scrabble arguments regularly.)
Posted by Ocala Mike (Member # 4657) on :
Henry, one "schleps" a bag onto a train; brush up on your Brooklyn Yiddish! Won't quibble with you on "slup".
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
I know, Mike, but the joke needs a "slep." Maybe I'm from Eastern Idiosyncrasia and don't know how to pronounce "sh". (This makes saying bad words in English rather difficult.)
Posted by Beacon Hill (Member # 4431) on :
The sequences that almost make it into the collection are sometimes just as good... how about TALL-TELL-TILL-TOLL-and(Jethro)TULL?
Posted by train lady (Member # 3920) on :
Mr/Ms Beacon Hill, do you have bat,bet,bit,bot,but or ball,bell,bill,boll,bull?
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
quote:Originally posted by Henry Kisor: Slap-slep-slip-slop-slup?
One sleps a bag onto a train. To slup is to mishandle a soup spoon on the way to the chin. That's my argument and I'm sticking to it. (Of course I lose Scrabble arguments regularly.)
I guess you do. Slurp with an "r" is what you do with the soup.
Posted by Train Arts (Member # 5835) on :
FROM THE GOVERMENT CHARACTER CONSERVATION OFFICE
We regret to inform you that the United States Office of the Strategic Punctuation Reserve at Elk Hills, CA is running short on hyphens and parenthesis. In this time of national need we ask all patriotic Americans to do their duty and stop using so many hyphens.
Originally this critical shortage started with hyphens, and now we are short of parenthesis as well.
Because of the critical nature of this situation, we have exercised Federal powers of Eminent Domain and have reclaimed some of the hyphens from the above conversation. Don't use any more parenthesis or we'll take those back too.
We at the Federal Government feel that since the education system has gone to heck anywhoo, as long as people understand you then it qualifies as communication. Save a country, stop using hyphens -- NOW!
Sincerely, Boone Doggle, Federal Administrator of Punctuation and Email
Posted by Ira Slotkin (Member # 81) on :
Like a phoenix - risen from the ashes - Comes another posting about dashes. Perhaps in bold bold for emphasis (or captured in parenthesis) I piper might - with threat of pain, Make here a plea that this remain a list that mentions naught but rail and road and track. Alas, to no avail. T'would I think end up with only results unbridled, like a pony, Meandering across the plains Instead of riding herd on trains.
Ode-iferously
Ira
Posted by HopefulRailUser (Member # 4513) on :
Ira - have the penguins lost favor so soon?
Posted by Ira Slotkin (Member # 81) on :
Oops. No penguins.
So that no spheniscus feel bereft (and if I have some musing left) I'll dash off this rhyme with penguin lest some posters - lent to sanguine - take a mind to send me packing on a zephyr. Sadly, lacking pentametric urges, additional poetic surges must wait for further critical dissing about what or whom I have left missing.
Humbled I
Posted by HopefulRailUser (Member # 4513) on :
Wow, Ira you have outdone yourself. For those who need the additional info, as I certainly did, here is an explanatory link:
"Dash away, dash away, dash away home!"
Posted by Ira Slotkin (Member # 81) on :
[QUOTE]Originally posted by HopefulRailUser: [QB] Wow, Ira you have outdone yourself.
Thanks Vickster!!
A bit of praise and inspiration goes a long way to keeping the muse active. Glad you liked them. I am rather fond of those last two myself, especially considering I just whipped'em out.
Ira
Posted by train lady (Member # 3920) on :
Ira, your talent lends much to this already talented forum. I always look forweard to seeing what you can come up with (I suppose the grammer police will be out since I should have said with what you can come up. Ugh!!)
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