From time to time Railforum members like to suggest ways Amtrak trains might be better configured. Of course, Amtrak never takes us up on these suggestions, but just for fun, let's try another that came to me as I woke up this morning.
I was thinking Amtrak could significantly expand its sleeper capacity if it converted every Transition dorm to 100% revenue space - all Roomettes so as not to require significant rebuilding. The crew lounge on the lower level could be converted into a first-class lounge space, sort of a mini Pacific Parlour Car experience. This would expand sleeper capacity and upgrade service with minimal cost.
Next, and this would require some major rebuilding, convert the existing baggage cars into half baggage and half crew dorm space. Or acquire some old coach/baggage combines for similar conversion.
The net result would be more sleeper capacity without having to buy new rolling stock.
I figure if they can spend millions converting lounges and diners into combined lounge-diners on the existing budget, they could probably do this within existing financial constraints. And with 16 Roomettes per car, they have the potential to bring in an additional $6,000-$7,000 per car per night.
Posted by Rick Morris (Member # 5347) on :
That's not a bad idea. Freeing up more sleeper space and adding a lounge area for sleeping car passengers. If only you were working for Amtrak. They would flip over the idea.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
I'd like to see some new Viewliner sleepers that would be half bedroom and half lounge space for first class passengers. This would significantly increase the available inventory of bedroom space and bring first class exclusive lounge space to eastern long-hauls for the first time (under Amtrak).
Gonna have to do something about the Heritage Fleet diners soon too.
Posted by tarheelman (Member # 6095) on :
Since we're compiling a wish list, here's mine:
1. I'd like to see all of the Amfleet and the Heritage cars replaced with new tilting cars from Talgo, Bombardier, or one of the other high speed train set manufacturers.
2. Once the track improvements between Charlotte and Greensboro have been completed, I'd like to see more trains added to the 'Piedmont' route on business days, with the stops in Kannapolis, Salisbury, and Burlington eliminated on those days. Also, offer business class seating with this train on business days, complete with a complimentary copy of "The Wall Street Journal" for each ticketed business class passenger.
3. Amtrak should work with the states to develop a plan for using the proposed federal matching funds to improve existing tracks for greater traffic as well as safe travel at speeds of 79-110 MPH.
4. Amtrak should also collaborate with the states to purchase and re-build/improve abandoned tracks that have good potential as passenger corridors. (An example would be the CSX "S" line from Virginia to Georgia.)
5. I'd like to see the North Carolina Railroad purchase the track and ROW between Salisbury and Asheville, then improve it for more traffic and faster speeds. The track can be leased back to Norfolk Southern, with full access rights for Amtrak included in the lease agreement. Once all this has been done, passenger service between Asheville and Salisbury can be reinstated at 79-110 MPH, making it faster than motor vehicle travel between these two communities.
I realize that all of these things don't have a snowball's chance in Miami of actually happening, but it's nice to dream. Posted by Jerome Nicholson (Member # 3116) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Toy: From time to time Railforum members like to suggest ways Amtrak trains might be better configured. Of course, Amtrak never takes us up on these suggestions, but just for fun, let's try another that came to me as I woke up this morning.
I was thinking Amtrak could significantly expand its sleeper capacity if it converted every Transition dorm to 100% revenue space - all Roomettes so as not to require significant rebuilding. The crew lounge on the lower level could be converted into a first-class lounge space, sort of a mini Pacific Parlour Car experience. This would expand sleeper capacity and upgrade service with minimal cost.
Next, and this would require some major rebuilding, convert the existing baggage cars into half baggage and half crew dorm space. Or acquire some old coach/baggage combines for similar conversion.
The net result would be more sleeper capacity without having to buy new rolling stock.
I figure if they can spend millions converting lounges and diners into combined lounge-diners on the existing budget, they could probably do this within existing financial constraints. And with 16 Roomettes per car, they have the potential to bring in an additional $6,000-$7,000 per car per night.
Or the crew's quarters could be spread evenly among the sleeping cars, as they are in the single-level LD trains.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
Tarheelman -
Re: Your #5 - I've often hoped that the NCDOT would seek to purchase the line to Asheville. Maybe even swap it with NS for the Greensboro - Charlotte mainline which NS covets.
Unlikely NS would let the Asheville line go though unless they were to reopen the line down Saluda mountain. The tracks are still in place but have not been used or maintained in 4-5 years.
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
Texas Eagle route continued from San Antonio to Corpus Christ then Brownsville.
Posted by CG96 (Member # 1408) on :
quote:Originally posted by tarheelman: Since we're compiling a wish list, here's mine:
1. I'd like to see all of the Amfleet and the Heritage cars replaced with new tilting cars from Talgo, Bombardier, or one of the other high speed train set manufacturers.
. . . . .
3. Amtrak should work with the states to develop a plan for using the proposed federal matching funds to improve existing tracks for greater traffic as well as safe travel at speeds of 79-110 MPH.
4. Amtrak should also collaborate with the states to purchase and re-build/improve abandoned tracks that have good potential as passenger corridors. (An example would be the CSX "S" line from Virginia to Georgia.)
I'd concur with the above, and add in upgrading the tracks both entering and exiting Madison, WI, to 110 mph quality along the Empire Builder's route, as well. If the matching funds get past the House, maybe we'll see the train finally return to Madison.
Posted by Railroad Bill (Member # 5097) on :
A new line that runs from Midwest to Florida without having to travel to Wash DC. Columbus-Cincinnati-Knoxville-Atlanta-Tampa I-75 on train. Posted by tarheelman (Member # 6095) on :
quote:Originally posted by notelvis: Tarheelman -
Re: Your #5 - I've often hoped that the NCDOT would seek to purchase the line to Asheville. Maybe even swap it with NS for the Greensboro - Charlotte mainline which NS covets.
Unlikely NS would let the Asheville line go though unless they were to reopen the line down Saluda mountain. The tracks are still in place but have not been used or maintained in 4-5 years.
David, why do you think that NS wouldn't want to sell the Salisbury-Asheville line to the NCRR? As I see it, doing so would relieve NS of the financial burden of paying for maintenance and improvements to the line. Moreover, by leasing it from the NCRR (just as they do with the existing Charlotte-Morehead City line), NS still has full use of the line.
*********
For those of you wondering what David and I mean when we mention the North Carolina Railroad, here's a link to their website. IMO, this arrangement (state ownership/financing with private use) is a model for how railroad infrastructure should be handled nationwide.
Just a feeling......no basis in fact......but I believe NS would let ownership of their Old Fort Mountain line go only if they had another route down the mountain.
Sure, it's probable that the NCRR would contract with NS to operate the Asheville-Salisbury line but NS is in a better position to negotiate if that route isn't their only option.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
Salisbury to Asheville: what you are describing is a sale and leaseback arrangement. Not likely as I see no advantage to NS in doing so. The reason for the North Carolina Railroad situation is historic. The NCRR predates the formation of the Southern Railway by someting like 45 years. Most of the leased lines in the Southern System, such as CNO&TP, AGS, NO&NE, GS&F etc. have dissapeared as seperate corporations in the last 20 to 30 years. This is to say that the current tendency is to absorb and dissolve subsidiary and leased corporations, not create mew ones. The NCRR hasn't and won't be absorbed because the line is owned by the state, and they are not about to sell it.
Somewhat agree with David that NS might be willing to sell off Salisbury to Asheville if Saluda became a viable alternative. This is a difficult line operationally. The Old Fort to Swanannoa Tunnel grade is very curvey, and the crest elevation is over 300 feet higher in elevation than the crest between Spartanburg and Asheville. The stopper for Saluda is the 4.5% plus three mile long grade, which does not get you to the high point. The high point is several very curvey miles northwest of Saluda, about 4 miles south of Hendersonville, where the Blue Ridge Divide is crossed.
There are no clearance issues involved. In the early 1960's all the Salisbury line tunnels were enlarged to be 30 feet high above the rail and 20 feet wide. (During this period, all clearances everywhere on the Southern System were improved to the greatest extent practical.)
A couple of years ago I did a map exercise for my own curiosity, and found that it appears possible to build about 20 miles of new line between just northwest of the current Blue Ridge Divide crossing and a point just southeast of Tryon to get the grade to slightly under 2% and avoid any sharp curves. It would not be cheap, as it would require about a 2 mile tunnel under the "false crest" at Saluda and a high bridge over the Green River. Wild guess, about $200 million. From an engineering perspective, it appears quite feasible. Financially maybe not. Since any new railroad construction brings out all forms of enviromental and other opposition, likely problems there, as well. But, it would give a hugely easier to operate crossing of the Blue Ridge than the Salisbury line.
George
Posted by Robert L (Member # 3144) on :
RE: Notelvis on Viewliner re-builds. I believe it is best if we could just get the Viewliner production line going again. An excellent design and good value for Amtrak, since it owns the design. But, the first-class lounge idea is good, maybe a a separate car attached to the, usually, 2 Viewliner set on Amtrak routes. Maybe a Hertiage or Amfleet, divided in the middle with a bar/serving area. Then at one end Viewliner first class lounge, next to the Viewliners, at the other use it a business class for intermediate stops. This whole concept might be a lower cost alternative to the Grand Lux travel cars attached to the Washington-Florida runs, if Grand Lux doesn't work out.
Posted by tarheelman (Member # 6095) on :
quote:Originally posted by George Harris: Salisbury to Asheville: what you are describing is a sale and leaseback arrangement. Not likely as I see no advantage to NS in doing so. The reason for the North Carolina Railroad situation is historic. The NCRR predates the formation of the Southern Railway by someting like 45 years. Most of the leased lines in the Southern System, such as CNO&TP, AGS, NO&NE, GS&F etc. have dissapeared as seperate corporations in the last 20 to 30 years. This is to say that the current tendency is to absorb and dissolve subsidiary and leased corporations, not create mew ones. The NCRR hasn't and won't be absorbed because the line is owned by the state, and they are not about to sell it.
Somewhat agree with David that NS might be willing to sell off Salisbury to Asheville if Saluda became a viable alternative. This is a difficult line operationally. The Old Fort to Swanannoa Tunnel grade is very curvey, and the crest elevation is over 300 feet higher in elevation than the crest between Spartanburg and Asheville. The stopper for Saluda is the 4.5% plus three mile long grade, which does not get you to the high point. The high point is several very curvey miles northwest of Saluda, about 4 miles south of Hendersonville, where the Blue Ridge Divide is crossed.
There are no clearance issues involved. In the early 1960's all the Salisbury line tunnels were enlarged to be 30 feet high above the rail and 20 feet wide. (During this period, all clearances everywhere on the Southern System were improved to the greatest extent practical.)
A couple of years ago I did a map exercise for my own curiosity, and found that it appears possible to build about 20 miles of new line between just northwest of the current Blue Ridge Divide crossing and a point just southeast of Tryon to get the grade to slightly under 2% and avoid any sharp curves. It would not be cheap, as it would require about a 2 mile tunnel under the "false crest" at Saluda and a high bridge over the Green River. Wild guess, about $200 million. From an engineering perspective, it appears quite feasible. Financially maybe not. Since any new railroad construction brings out all forms of enviromental and other opposition, likely problems there, as well. But, it would give a hugely easier to operate crossing of the Blue Ridge than the Salisbury line.
George
George, thanks for the information about a new line to help get the grade to slightly under 2% and avoid any sharp curves. That sounds like a good idea to me. However, like you said, new railroad construction (like new highway construction) faces a lot of environmental and other (read "NIMBY") opposition. Consequently, it'd be difficult to build this line even if the funding for it was in place.
Regarding the NCRR buying the Salisbury to Asheville line, don't forget that, as a state owned entity, the NCRR can use eminent domain to purchase this line if Norfolk Southern is stubborn about selling it. IMO, such an action would be a good use of eminent domain because it'd ensure that this line can be improved for more traffic (both passenger and freight) and greater speed. There's no guarantee that such improvements would ever be made under NS ownership since, as the line's owner, NS would have to pay for them itself.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
quote:Originally posted by tarheelman:Regarding the NCRR buying the Salisbury to Asheville line, don't forget that, as a state owned entity, the NCRR can use eminent domain to purchase this line if Norfolk Southern is stubborn about selling it. IMO [/QB]
A couple of things wrong here:
First, the State of North Carolina has already paid for work on tracks they do not own, and can legitimately do so if it for public benefit.
Second, NS can itself use Eminent Domain if necessary. It would be interesting to see what happened if one entitiy with eminent domain powers attempted to attain control of the facilities of another entity with eminent domain powers. I smell work for lawyers for quite a period of time.
Posted by tarheelman (Member # 6095) on :
quote:Originally posted by George Harris:
quote:Originally posted by tarheelman:Regarding the NCRR buying the Salisbury to Asheville line, don't forget that, as a state owned entity, the NCRR can use eminent domain to purchase this line if Norfolk Southern is stubborn about selling it. IMO
A couple of things wrong here:
First, the State of North Carolina has already paid for work on tracks they do not own, and can legitimately do so if it for public benefit.
Second, NS can itself use Eminent Domain if necessary. It would be interesting to see what happened if one entitiy with eminent domain powers attempted to attain control of the facilities of another entity with eminent domain powers. I smell work for lawyers for quite a period of time. [/QB]
Pardon my ignorance, George, but how can a private (e.g., non-government-controlled) entity have eminent domain powers?
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
Bear in mind also that the state of North Carolina has purchased a railroad route from NS previously.......the Murphy Branch from Dillsboro (MP 47) westward 67 miles to Murphy. Admittedly the intent was far different from what theywould want to do with the Asheville - Salisbury line.
The state still owns the railbanked westernmost 15 miles from Andrews to Murphy. The other 52 and change is operated by the Great Smoky Mountains Railway, primarily a tourist hauler.
Posted by Kiernan (Member # 3828) on :
It would be difficult to build any twenty miles of railroad with a two-mile tunnel and high bridge for $200 million. The stretch of the Rail Runner in the Interstate 25 median is at least $140 million, and there are no right-of-way costs.
States quite frequently give public utility companies and railroads condemnation power. It benefits the public.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kiernan: It would be difficult to build any twenty miles of railroad with a two-mile tunnel and high bridge for $200 million. The stretch of the Rail Runner in the Interstate 25 median is at least $140 million, and there are no right-of-way costs.
Noted. It was a wild guess. Any more solid number would be appreciated.
quote:States quite frequently give public utility companies and railroads condemnation power. It benefits the public.
Very true. A number of years ago I had a short term job involving an underground telephone cable. At one point I was doing surveys for condemnation proceedings. You are by definiting dealing with unhappy people.
For utilities and railroads, and railroads in most states are classified as public utilities, it can depend upon purpose, generally whether for operational or non-operational purposes. In other words, property can be condemned for line changes and even widening of cuts and fills, but not for an office building.
Posted by tarheelman (Member # 6095) on :
quote:Originally posted by George Harris: For utilities and railroads, and railroads in most states are classified as public utilities, it can depend upon purpose, generally whether for operational or non-operational purposes. In other words, property can be condemned for line changes and even widening of cuts and fills, but not for an office building.
Railroads are classified as public utilities, eh? I never knew that.
I wonder if this fact will help expedite the construction of the Southeast High Speed Rail Corridor?
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