The following story from the Wall Street Journal, about its writer's struggle in a "quiet car" (I didn't know those existed) on Amtrak, is IMO instructive. It also helps explain why Mr. Norman and I prefer our snug sleeper rooms.
Interesting story. FWIW we have quiet cars in the UK but although I suspect originally they were intended to be deathly silent with conversations banned, there is now a fairly happy medium of "no laptop noise, no mobile [cell] phones, no tinny music from headphones, but quiet conversations allowed". Some trains also have a family car.
All this anti-smoking in public places thing is great. Except I can't go outside any more. Whereas a nice meal in a sunny pub garden in summer was a joy with the occasional waft of smoke, now it's a smokers' paradise. So I'm now stuck indoors. Precious few places have enough land to have physically segregated smoking and non-smoking gardens.
Geoff M.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
"Enforced tolerance seems to make people ornery"
I like that quote and I pledge to use it three times (at least) in my workplace today. I never thought that I would see the term 'ornery' printed in the Wall Street Journal though.
Posted by 20th Century (Member # 2196) on :
In general decorum,civility,and sensibility has gone down the tubes. Sensibility has been replaced with "densibility". I for one am for quiet cars where one can converse, read, play games that don't "beep", "blurp", or mimic bombs and gunfire. Cell phones have become a necessity,but to involuntarily have to listen to a "duh" conversation is obnoxious. I like cell phone free zones, only because there are those who insist on loudly sharing their conversation with the whole train car or dining room....and keep on going like an everready battery. I remember sitting next to an Amtrak employee who was returning from a working trip. She used her cell phone with such a low voice for a short period of time that it wasn't disturbing at all. As for the ring,it can be substituted with a vibration so one doesn't have to listen an old disco tune, or whatever. If everyone used civility, decorum, and sensibility we might need a quiet car. Oh well, I can dream can't I?
Posted by 20th Century (Member # 2196) on :
In general decorum,civility,and sensibility has gone down the tubes. Sensibility has been replaced with "densibility". I for one am for quiet cars where one can converse, read, play games that don't "beep", "blurp", or mimic bombs and gunfire. Cell phones have become a necessity,but to involuntarily have to listen to a "duh" conversation is obnoxious. I like cell phone free zones, only because there are those who insist on loudly sharing their conversation with the whole train car or dining room....and keep on going like an everready battery. I remember sitting next to an Amtrak employee who was returning from a working trip. She used her cell phone with such a low voice for a short period of time that it wasn't disturbing at all. As for the ring,it can be substituted with a vibration so one doesn't have to listen an old disco tune, or whatever. If everyone used civility, decorum, and sensibility we might need a quiet car. Oh well, I can dream can't I?
Posted by 20th Century (Member # 2196) on :
Sorry for the double post. I wasn't automatically returned to the thread, so I clicked the retry button and got the opportunity to blabber on twice!
Posted by 20th Century (Member # 2196) on :
Oh my, I meant to say we might NOT need a quiet car.
Posted by Railroad Bob (Member # 3508) on :
On a recent trip on the Pacific Surfliner, a "bidness" man kept his (loud) cell phone conversation going for the full two hours from LAX to Solana Beach without a break! Then when he detrained at Solana, he apologized to those around him for talking so long and loud. Made me want one of those devices that supposedly exist, that block cell phones with a jamming signal. Of course, those things might skirt the gray areas of legality-- ha. (Think how useful they would be in a theater.) I suppose as Mr. 20th Century says- 'decorum, civility and sensibility have gone down the tubes.' But every now and then I see examples of old-fashioned courtesy in unlikely places. Perhaps there's still hope, Mr. Kisor, that we have not yet arrived at Orwell's 1-9-8-4, which I just re-read and found to be more terrifying and timely than ever.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
I think another related issue is the apparent lack of pride in personal appearance. On a recent stop at a Marriott Fairfield hotel, we were eating breakfast when a family of 4 or 5 wandered into the room. All were dressed in pj's with no robes or attempt to dress for the day.
While I am all for being comfortable, that doesn't mean you have to find the dirtiest jeans and well worn tee shirt to wear on the train. Remember when you used to dress up to travel? But I guess that was before today's travel became an endurance contest.
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
Perhaps decorum and the democracy of Amtrak diners have a difficult time mixing. Once I was seated on No. 5 with a be-tattooed gangbanger in a filthy wife-beater undershirt. He protested because his meals were not free -- I am not certain, but I believe he had just been released from prison and put on the train by correctional officers, and therefore expected a perk. Mercifully, he left the diner in a huff.
Another time in the diner I saw a young fellow wearing a T-shirt with the letters "TIHS" (with the S backwards). For a moment I thought it was a high school athletic shirt -- and then the train chief confided he'd made the guy take the shirt off and put it on inside out. Oh.
Last fall, when I was coming back from Seattle on No. 8, a loudmouth Canadian (those seem to be very rare) who described himself at dinner the night before as an "entrepreneur" showed up for breakfast unshaven and uncombed and in T-shirt, sweatpants -- and bare feet. The little female steward (who must have been a Marine drill instructor) sent him packing.
Then there was the old lady who stripped to bra and panties in the aisle of a coach to change her clothes. (That really wasn't uncouth behavior, but senile dementia, probably Alzheimer's, and most of the rest of us recognized it and felt sorry for her.)
Once, on the Capitol Limited coming into D.C., I watched as a drunken guy passed out in the lower lounge car. The attendant seemed more worried than angered about it, and a little later, when I saw two burly cops gently rolling the guy down the platform in a wheelchair, I mentioned it to the sleeper attendant. The guy, he said, was a Nam vet who had spent nearly the entire journey reliving his nightmares and showing his Medal of Honor to sympathetic and well-meaning people who bought him drinks.
There's as much sad drama on a train as there are outright breaches of decorum.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
I do indeed remember the days when you dressed for travel. During the '60's when I did most of my train riding, I always had on a sport jacket anytime I was outside my room. I distinctly recall wearing a tie as well for Dinner on the Super. Proper dress "bought me a ticket" into the Pullman Obs Lounge on the North Coast Ltd when I was traveling Slumbercoach. Such may have been Pullman operated, but the NP timetable clearly said the Obs was off limits to the Slumbercoach. Nevertheless, my Pullman Passenger Check was "conveniently' visible from my front jacket pocket, and I ordered drinks (just turned Blackjack; the Porter who served passengers at seats wanted ID, but that was all he wanted) and conversed with passengers - all without incident.
The first airplane flight with family during July 1957; all were dressed in Sunday best. Needless to say same going to the Philharmonic during teen years - my Mother would have expected nothing less.
Even sporting events with my Father, jacket and tie was the norm; hey the players are in uniform why not the spectators? I must wonder is body painting even becoming "norm" at Ivy League sporting events? Be assured not "back in my day" - don't think my Ya-lie Father would have gone for that!!!
O Tempora O Mores.
Posted by 4021North (Member # 4081) on :
A few comments. I agree that civility is going downhill, and that is what ruined the author's train trip.
As far as underlying issues, there is more to be added here. "Sanitizing our immediate environment of ...noise is an American obsession..." Wait a minute.
On the contrary, one's immediate surroundings are getting noisier all the time, and doing anything about it seems to be anything but an obsession. Just a few examples that come to mind are the proliferation of over-amplified PA speakers in all public places, and the widespread acceptance of illegal modified mufflers/exhaust systems that raise traffic noise to intolerable levels. This, along with such as ultra-bright low-beam headlights ("three times as bright, for safety!"...) and in-your-face LED billboards, are manifestations of things truly in need of control.
I mention this because being subjected to so much stress as society is nowadays (noise and light are only a few examples) does not have an insignificant effect on people's overall health. I think the author's view is valid, people are discourteous and rude, perhaps as a response to overcrowding in time and space. But there is more lacking here than just civility. The need for such things as quiet cars is a very real problem that cannot be explained simply by people demanding "special privileges" for themselves.
I think we all agree that politeness and respect are needed. But there are times and places where rules and control are necessary as well.
Posted by TwinStarRocket (Member # 2142) on :
But there is an advantage on the train over other public intercity transportation. When confronted with offensive or uncouth fellow passengers, you can always find another place to go and hope they latch on to someone else.
My usual excuses: 1. Oops I should have brushed my teeth. 2. I'm going to check on a diner reservation. 3. I think I really need a nap. 4. I'm going to see if the lounge attendant is back. etc.
Posted by train lady (Member # 3920) on :
Well I still "dess up" to ride the train. I do it for me. I may look like a slob while scrubbing the kitchen floor but that doesn't mean I have to appear that way "outside". I wear nice looking pants and shirt even when on a driving trip. I think the slob look startd back when children were supposed to be free to "express themselves' and that spawned the me generation. But then it sems each generation disaproves of the up coming ones mores.
Posted by TBlack (Member # 181) on :
Well, I'm slow; is it Kaminski (the author) who is being unruly by bringing noisy kids into the quiet car? Or is it the abrupt lady who is insisting on following the rules? In any event, my experience with a sold out Acela is that they lift the quiet car designation to make sure all seats are taken.
Also, I'm with you, Train Lady, I still dress up when I travel. Although that can have its down-side: when we would travel back from our annual visit to the grandparents in No. Idaho in the late 40's there was a 4 hour layover in Chicago between the arrival of the Empire Builder and the departure of the LSL. 4 hours in the Lasalle St. station. What could my brother and I do for entertainment? We discovered parallel escalators: one up, one down and proceeded to ride up and down for hours, sitting on the treads. You can imagine what the bottoms of our seersucker suits looked like. Mom wasn't too happy.
Posted by Ham Radio (Member # 6587) on :
Last July we took the Southwest Chief roundtrip coach class between Fullerton and Albuquerque.
No issues going but on the return trip a lady passenger's cell phone kept ringing throughout the night during quiet hours. Guess she wasn't smart enough to set it to vibrate mode.
It was enough to make you want to launch the offending passenger from the vestibule.
Posted by train lady (Member # 3920) on :
Yes it is the author who has the kids. But they were apparently quiet and it was the ding dong who was making all the noise.
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
I greatly agree with respecting others and making as little noise as possible while on Amtrak. I once was a culprit, even though I didn't know it. I was on the Starlight bound for Oregon, in a deluxe sleeper. I had a little Sangean AM/FM & shortwave radio with me, and decided to see what AM radio stations I could capture by holding the radio up to the window. Heard quite a few, but soon afterward heard a banging on the wall from the bedroom next to mine. I guess bedroom walls are not that thick as the couple next to me heard the radio and could not sleep. I had some earphones along, and plugged them into the radio to aleviate the problem. From now on, I always have earphones along, even in the sleeping cars.
By the way, with the post 2 up from mine, I assume "Ham Radio" is an amateur radio operator(?) Do you ever work repeaters while on Amtrak? That can be a lot of fun.
Richard -WA6ZFM
Richard/
Posted by Judy McFarland (Member # 4435) on :
During our Christmas visit to the Izaak Walton Inn, we noted signs asking to "help preserve the historic character of our Inn" by not using computers in the lobby or dining room. Cell phones won't work there (hooray!) and free wi-fi for those who MUST communicate worked fine in the downstairs bar area. One person who fired up her laptop in the lobby was reminded by others present at the time that she should go to her room or the bar. Civility is a wonderful thing!
(and I promise a trip report soon. . .)
Posted by Railroad Bob (Member # 3508) on :
quote:Originally posted by Henry Kisor: [qb] Another time in the diner I saw a young fellow wearing a T-shirt with the letters "TIHS" (with the S backwards). ------------------------------------------------------ That's bad, Mr. Kisor, but the worst shirt I've ever seen in an Amtrak diner was a black T with huge white letters that spelled out "F--- you, you f-----' f---!" Man, that shirt took the cake for the worst I've ever seen in public...and the steward let him sit there and eat while wearing it! ------------------------------------------------------ The guy, he said, was a Nam vet who had spent nearly the entire journey reliving his nightmares and showing his Medal of Honor to sympathetic and well-meaning people who bought him drinks.
I'd say if he were a TRUE Medal of Honor recipient, he'd earned the right to have a few drinks...these guys are bigger than life, heroes among heroes, the greatest of the great. You've got to be pretty special to do something like throw yourself on a grenade to save your buddies, or whatever he did in 'Nam...
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
Yes, the concern showed toward that fellow by the Amtrak crew (and by the cops) suggested that he was the genuine article. I don't think Amtrak crew are easily gulled by B.S. stories. They've heard it all and seen it all.
Another T-shirt I once saw (worn by a young woman) on the train had very tiny print across the front: "Stop staring at my boobs." I had to laugh at that one. To us codgers, young people today indeed are overly in-your-face about sexuality, but a sense of humor helps bridge the generation gap.
For Judy McF: Did you get the sense that the Izaak Walton wireless was actually hooked to a dialup line? I've used it on two occasions, and getting my e-mail was sloooooooooooow. But I didn't mind at all.
How was the snow cover at the Inn?
Posted by Judy McFarland (Member # 4435) on :
We didn't try the wi-fi (or whatever it was) because part of our reason for choosing the place was to get away from computers, etc. There was 22" of powdery snow at the Izaak Walton Inn on Christmas Eve, according to the measuring stick in the front yard. It snowed gently every day we were there, and there was no wind so the high 20's temperature was most pleasant. I was really worried on the way out because there was no snow in North Dakota or eastern Montana. I'm not sure where the snow cover started because it was dark before we got to Cutbank. The cross-country ski trails were groomed every morning before 9 AM - I want to go back!
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
I've noticed that a lot in the winter -- the snow cover lessens as the train crosses the High Plains, but as soon as it reaches the Rockies you're hip deep in it.
I'm with you about going back to the Inn. My wife and I have visited it four times now, and we never ever get tired of it.
Posted by MetSox (Member # 6035) on :
I usually ride in the quiet car when I take the Acela between Boston and New York. On one hand, it's nice not to have to listen to other people's conversations but an the other hand, sometimes train crews can be a bit over zealous in enforcing the rules. Lately the announcement is thet we're trying to maintain a "liberry" atmosphere.
On one occasion, right after boarding at Penn Station, the conductor gave an endless lecture on how to behave. She went on for a good five minutes, covering just about every conceivable circumstance you could possible think of. I'd be willing to bet a sizable amount of money that she was a schoolteacher before joining Amtrak because she berated us like we were a bunch of bad little kids and the train hadn't even filled up yet. I wanted to ask her about the one subject she didn't cover, sneezing, but i didn't wanna get sent to the Principal's office for being a wise guy.
Another time on a regional train (this was the 2nd time the Acelas were taken out of service), I had the same conductor in a quiet car that didn't have any signs. When I pointed this out, she said "I AM THE SIGN!"
During the early days of quiet cars, there were several occasions when there weren't any signs or if there were, they were so tiny they were easy to overlook. You can't really blame them. After all, now that passengers are no longer required to bring their seat checks with then when leaving their seats, crews have to have another reason to exercise their authority.
Quiet cars aren't necessarily all that quiet, even now that there are more and bigger signs. There are so many reminders about how to behave that it can defeat the whole concept. A couple years ago I was on the Acela leaving Boston when the usual announcement was made right after Back Bay Station. Less than five minutes later, before the train got to Route 128, the other conductor made the exact same announcement. When he came around to collect tickets after 128, I told him that I wasn't getting much peace and quiet because the announcements were so frequent. It must have really gotten to him because he snapped at me saying that if I didn't like it, I should just put my earphones on and shut up.
One thing they don't mention in the timetables is that sometimes at night the quiet car is also the dark car, meaning they turn off the main overhead lighting. Now I'm sure there's a very good reason for this, mainly because they don't want to spoil the surprise. I learned the hard way that if you sit in the quiet car at night because you'd like to do some reading, MAKE SURE THE READING LIGHT WORKS!
What a dilemma! Do I want to people yapping on their cell phones or lectures on how to behave?
Posted by earmond (Member # 186) on :
On a segment on our last LD tour, The crescent from DC to New Orleans, a mother brought a laptop (17") into the diner and set it up on her table and ran video games to keep her child entertained and under some control during her dinner meal. Volume at normal, not reduced or on headphones. She monopolized her entire table, and maybe that was another point she took advantage of. The LSA did nothing. Only my wife prevented me from making a fuss.
Posted by wayne72145 (Member # 4503) on :
The only time I ride coach is between Seattle and Eugene and I have only been annoyed twice in 4 years---I wish I could say that about the airlines. Once by a cell phone talker who was directed to the end of the car on the Cascade and once by a mother who thought Amtrak provided day care. In each case I could find relief by just taking a walk and being somewhere else, it is another reason I love train travel.
Posted by TNCMAXQ (Member # 4875) on :
Sure wish I could have gotten the quiet car when I rode from Philadelphia to New Haven this past week. I was in the back of the line though so I hardly had a choice of seats when I boarded. The quiet car was full and it took about 10 minutes just for everyone to get seated. I was stuck in the last seat in the last car and all the business people around me were talking loud enough for the whole car to hear their conversations. As a private person who hates it when anyone can hear my conversations, this just makes me nervous. I have to remind myself most people don't think the way I do. Posted by Railroad Bill (Member # 5097) on :
Wife and I just returned from great trip on LSL, CZ, CS, Pacific Surfliner, SWC and CL. (Trip report forthcoming). Our experiences in the lounge car were mixed but the proliferation of cell phone conversations in the car were so irritating that we spent a considerable time in our room away from the obnoxious talkers. Surely someone will tell these people that it is not necessary to speak loudly into a cell phone for the person on the other end to hear. Most of these people just want others to think they are important (that someone would actually speak to them) on a phone. Musical belltones are also out of hand. Not so many underdressed people on this trip. Many retirees who did dress very well for dinner and were quiet and courteous. One family with three small children caused such problems in the lounge car on the SWC that the conductor made several announcements about controlling your children's behavior. I do not think these parents had a clue about discipline and also didnt think the announcements applied to them. The rest of us in the car knew who the conductor was referring to. Another family on the CL had four small kids and they were little angels. Mennonite parents know how to parent their kids!!. The bottom line is: No one else cares to hear your cell phone conversations, so speak at a low voice level. And: Not everyone thinks your kids are cute when they are misbehaving! More later, Railroad Bill and Rockhound Claudia
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
quote:Originally posted by Railroad Bill: I do not think these parents had a clue about discipline and also didnt think the announcements applied to them.
Parents of brats almost never recognize thir kids as such. This opinion I have held since as a kid hearing the mother of the worst bully in the school sounding shocked that others considered her little angel a brat and troublemaker, and have seen no reason to change it through parenting and grandparenting. Therefore any approach less direct than grabbing their shirt front and saying, "hey, I am talking to you about your little brat, now control them or you get to watch the train leave from the next stop without you" is usually doomed to failure.
Posted by enki (Member # 6830) on :
I completely sympathize. Not just on trains, but in general, people have absolutely no shame about annoying others around them.
That said, I think people can really take it too far.
For awhile, I lived in Westchester county and commuted to Manhattan for work on the Metro North commuter train. I would usually take advantage of my half hour commute to call clients and confirm appointments for the day. I can't imagine that my phone calls were any louder than regular conversation, and even so, the commuter train had frequent announcements and other background noise, so I don't think people had a right to get upset with my making important phone calls.
Sure, someone playing ring tones or music is not excusable, but remember that this is a loud moving vehicle, not a library or your own personal flop house, and you're not entitled to complete quiet.
Posted by rresor (Member # 128) on :
Well, I certainly wouldn't expect total quiet on a commuter train, any more than I do on my daily commute on Metro in Washington. Sometimes I *do* need to talk to someone on my cell phone while on the train (usually to coordinate meeting for dinner, or something similar -- doesn't take long).
But when I travel from PHL to WAS (weekly), I *always* sit in the quiet car. I've overheard way too many obnoxious cell phone conversations in the last ten years. If I have to use my phone, I simply go to the next car (or the vestibule). Gee, it's not really that hard.
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