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Posted by Moderator (Member # 2933) on :
 
This is to advise everyone from this day forward dogs are now allowed on the forum as well as hotdogs, dogs breath, doggone and dog day,but not the word ***

the Moderator
 

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Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
 
Hot diggety dog!
 

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Posted by Railroad Bob (Member # 3508) on :
 
Dog. *** Just testing to see what would happen...
 

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Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
 
This has nothing to do with Amtrak, shame on us all. Now, why won't Amtrak allow dogs in sleepers with their masters? The old passenger railroads used to do that, much to the disgust of the porters, who had to walk the mutts at longer station dwells.
 

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Posted by train lady (Member # 3920) on :
 
probably because of allergies and also sanitation . Then too a barking hound is not a good thng
 

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Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
 
SPCA - various regulations

But, you can call it a service animal and take it anywhere.
 

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Posted by Ham Radio (Member # 6587) on :
 
Reminds me of the old Henny Youngman joke:

"I just got off the train and they served me food fit for a king."

"Here, King! Here, King!"


 

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Posted by Mr. Toy (Member # 311) on :
 
dog

Well, now you've taken the fun out of this place.
 

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Posted by chrisg (Member # 2488) on :
 
I changed it to Beef Franks in that menu that started all of this. Sorry to everyone who might
have gotten upset but I copied from the Amtrak menu.

Chris
 

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Posted by tarheelman (Member # 6095) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ham Radio:
Reminds me of the old Henny Youngman joke:

"I just got off the train and they served me food fit for a king."

"Here, King! Here, King!"

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Thanks for posting this---I needed a good laugh!
 

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Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
 
It may not be so easy to sneak a dog aboard a train just by calling it a service animal. Service dogs must wear special harnesses that clearly declare what their job is, and I think the owners must also carry credentials for the animals. It's not easy for the owners in another way -- everybody wants to pet the pooch, but when he's working he should largely be let alone.
 

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Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
 
I wish Amtrak would allow dogs in sleepers - at least the bedrooms. Some of the upscale hotels not only allow pets but pamper them. Likewise Red Roof Inn is always happy to see your pet. On airlines you can take them on the plane if they fit under the seat. So why not Amtrak? I'd gladly pay an extra cleaning fee to do this.

As Henry says, dogs used to travel on trains. I remember seeing many on the Florida trains looking out the window or being walked by their owners. This would be easier today with the many smoke break stops instead of the brief pause at stations that the Florida Special or other premium trains made.

But I guess with so many rules to protect us from everything it is no longer possible.
 

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Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
 
Regarding dogs and hotels......I just got back from staying at the ultra-luxurious and absolutely incredible Four Seasons Resort in Las Vegas. This is basically a non-advertised, almost "secret" type of hotel. It is located on the top 5 floors of the Mandalay Bay Hotel. By pure luck (and I mean absolute and total luck!), I was able to stay in a $5,000 per night room for $150. No, that's not a typo. It was unreal. I thought to myself, "So, this is what it's like to be rich and famous!". Anyway, about the dogs.....I kept seeing people with fancy dogs on leashes as I walked through the Four Seasons hallway going to/from the elevator and front lobby. I finally asked someone if there was a dog show in town, and nope---no dog show. However, I did find out that the ultra-wealthy tend to travel with their fancy little doggies everywhere they go. And since the Four Seasons caters to people with money, this is why I saw so many dogs. I know this has nothing to do with train travel, but since we were talking about dogs.....

And relating to what Henry said about service dogs on the train. Last year I was on #14 (Coast Starlight), and a woman in my sleeper had her dog with her. I did not see the usual ID around the dog that identified the K9 as a "service dog"---looked just like a little mutt to me. And the woman did not have any outwardly visible disabilities that I could detect. This does not mean she didn't have any, but I did not take any note of any. So I asked the attendant if that was a service dog, and he said, "Beats me. These days with ADA issues, we're no longer allowed to ask for credentials or proof of the animal being a service animal. All the person has to say is, "It's my service dog" and that's it". I don't know if this is completely accurate, but this is what the Amtrak sleeper attendant told me. In my opinion, the woman with the dog appeared to just be traveling with her dog because she wanted to---no "service" required, at least, in my opinion.
 

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Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
 
Times sure have changed regarding the credentials of service animals!

The last time I saw a non-service dog aboard a train was in the mid-'90s, when I spotted a pretty young lady (high school age, I'd say) with a blanket in her lap. Suddenly a tiny tail thrust out from the blanket and wagged. She tried to hide it, but saw that I was watching. "Shhh," she said. "But the conductor knows."

She had got on the westbound Zephyr at Glenwood Springs and was going to the next stop, Grand Junction.

A little later I saw the conductor, winked, and said, "Woof woof."

He stared at me.

"Cute dog in the next car," I said.

"No dogs on MY trains!" he replied indignantly.

Later, after girl and dog had gotten off at Grand Junction, the conductor came by. "I put her off at the next stop," he said with a virtuous expression. "What was I supposed to do, stop the train and put her off in the middle of nowhere?"

Much later I learned that the girl -- and her dog -- were regulars on the Zephyr between Glenwood Springs and Grand Junction. And that the operating crew always did its duty, obeyed the regulations and put her off at the next stop.
 

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Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
As I've noted here in the past, my Newfoundland (1992-2003; several here have seen his photo) in the Lounge would have been happy to give "pony rides' to any and all children under about 50lbs. If they were too heavy, he would just gently lay down and start giving the child kisses.

Natrually, he would expect a Bedroom, and if he decided that he liked the sofa therein, well that was my problem. The little bolted down chair would simply have to do!
 

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Posted by Judy McFarland (Member # 4435) on :
 
Please no dogs in the sleepers. Not everyone likes dogs, even well-behaved ones. I'd have to allow a true service animal, of course, but that doesn't mean I'd like it. Dog lovers should remember that some people would pay for the privilege of NOT having dogs around.
 

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Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
 
My wife......who was not yet my wife at the time....smuggled a live bunny in a cardboard box from Winter Park, FL to Fayetteville, NC aboard the Silver Meteor. She had purchased him at a flea market shortly before train time and didn't let me in on what was in the box until we were north of DeLand.

I spent the rest of the trip being concerned that we would be found out and put off the train at the next station.
 

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Posted by train lady (Member # 3920) on :
 
Judy, I can understand that you aren't a dog lover and that's ok. What I don't understand is why you would object to a dog in a sleeper if the door were kept closed and you had no contact wih it.AmI missing something?
 

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Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
Likely, Ms. Train Lady, for the same reason that, when there was some possibility that I was going to get Lucky a "little sister" Husky, the fellow here who was facilitating the arrangement (his Mother's, who had to go into 'care", dog) learned I was prepared to go out to Sacramento (it would have been "fly and rent") to meet Lady, simply said "oh there is no need for that, we'll arrange to have IT shipped out here to you".

To me that was analogous to a couple arranging to adopt a child from overseas who simply said to the authorities "just send the child over here.....save us the journey".

But to close on a K-9 rails note, there was a day we were taking our walk when at the station (MP 18.32), #4 made an unscheduled stop. This was simply because the signal @ 17.99 was showing Stop Signal. The rear Assistant Conductrix alighted and after "my buddy" got his requisite pats (he thought she needed a kiss), he then had his nose pretty well into the Superliner vestibule. I even had to say e-NUF.

Well thirty seconds later, an Approach was showing (solid Yellow on the Q), there were two shorts, the Conductrix boarded, smiled at him,, and the episode was over.
 

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Posted by Judy McFarland (Member # 4435) on :
 
Even if the door to your sleeper room is closed, inevitably your furry friend & I will meet in the hall. I can assure you that the "family member" sharing my roomette will not greet you by trying to sniff your private parts or think you need a sloppy kiss in passing.
 

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Posted by Kiernan (Member # 3828) on :
 
One of the fun things about living in Santa Fe, New Mexico, is that you can contract bubonic plague and you don't even need a passport. Santa Fe County has one of the highest rates of the plague in the country. It's so common here that the physicians actually know what to look for. Two summers ago, a couple who live within a few miles of me came down with plague symptoms while on a trip back East. The hospital wasn't expecting it and by the time they figured out it was the plague, the husband had to have part of one leg amputated. They got bubonic plague from their dogs.

To be fair to the dogs, it's the rats, mice, and prairie dogs that are the reservoir. The dogs get it from them.
 

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Posted by Southwest Chief (Member # 1227) on :
 
I would hate to see dogs (or any pets) allowed on Amtrak.

Yeck the cars are barely clean as is. I do not want pets in Amtrak cars no matter how clean the owner may say it is.

It was bad enough with smoking, and thankfully that's been done always with. No NO to pets.

The only time I've seen a dog on Amtrak (Southwest Chief) was at ABQ for drug sniffing. Later on I asked about the constitutionality of sniffing on trains and potentially people and the agent said yeah it's probably not legal…the sniffing of people that is. Haven't seen the practice used since 2003.
 

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Posted by train lady (Member # 3920) on :
 
sniffing is the only way dogs can alert us to drug traffic and frankly I would rather the drug smugglers are cleaned up as to being upset over the dogs. But then that is my opinion.
 

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Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
 
Police dogs trained in detecting narcotics can use their senses on anyone in any public place. Sorta like how citizens can take pictures of anyone in any public place. Probably not the best apples to apples comparison, but if you're out in public, then a police dog can sniff you. You can't be "stopped and sniffed" (so to speak) unless there is probable cause to do so, just like any other circumstance where the police would stop you----dog or no dog. But if a trained and certified K9 "alerts" on you, then that right there is probably cause for an officer to detain you and investigate further. Police dogs trained in narcotic detection are amazing. Their sense of smell is incredible.

Also, police K9's have been known to walk through Amtrak trains at random and have come up with some pretty good drug arrests.
 

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Posted by Southwest Chief (Member # 1227) on :
 
I didn't want to get into a big thing with the drug dogs, especially since I support and commend the work they do.

The whole constitutional thing goes back to a paper I wrote and ultimately defended in a mock trial for a law school class about the use of drug sniffing dogs on the train, I had to get trains in somehow

The whole topic created much debate in the class and while researching I found some interesting cases about the use of drug sniffing dogs. The question if it is OK to actually sniff a person and not say their vehicle or public space around them is still an unlitigated matter. Our professor said that the use of drug sniffing dogs on the train is a sticky issue especially since if you're on the train are you in fact "stopped" or not. And if the agents would have probable cause. In my experience I didn't see any indication of such cause. They just searched the train cars in a routine like manner and it seemed to be done for every train (3 and 4) regardless of the day or if there were any suspicious passengers.

But I also agree that the dogs are amazing. Doing research for the paper and trial, the success rate of the dogs is astounding. I was representing the side of law enforcement (dogs), but the court decided partially against me The holding was that it seemed fine for them to be used on the train but not to sniff the "person" of a person.

And here I said I didn't want to get into a long discussion

Woof Woof, take a bite out of crime
 

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Posted by HopefulRailUser (Member # 4513) on :
 
I ran into a dog that was part of the Homeland Security program. He and his volunteer handler were on the Los Angeles Metrorail train. I asked what specific skill the dog had and was told that is was a secret - different dogs have different training and we are not to know what it is. Very interesting.

He didn't sniff anyone that I noticed.
 

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Posted by Kiernan (Member # 3828) on :
 
When a dog alerts, it makes some movement or sound, and the handler assumes that the movement or sound means a specific thing. Dogs are not machines, they are animals, and we cannot know what goes on inside of a dog's head, if anything does. I recall reading about a drug dog in California that had such poor performance in tests--like around fifty percent--that the judge refused to consider the evidence. Does the dog make the movement or sound to alert the handler to the presence of drugs, or to get praise? After all, it might have been a long day.

I was a dog handler in Vietnam. We guarded the perimeter of Cam Ranh Bay Air Force Base at night. My dog alerted four times in the year, but in only two cases was there anyone there. What were the other two all about?

My brother used to work for the Customs Service. Someone was trying to sell them a machine that "sniffed" drugs with radio frequency energy. It didn't work, but the Customs Service really wanted it to.

The main use of dogs is to scare people.
 

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Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
 
The judge refused to consider WHAT evidence? That the dog alerted? That's not evidence. Or that drugs were found when the dog alerted? That's evidence. (Unless it was planted, of course, which is a whole nuther story.)

Earlier, we were talking about service dogs, and I doubt that the main use of a service dog for the blind or for the deaf is to scare people, especially since some of them are small ones -- the best "hearing" dog I ever encountered was a Jack Russell.

Whenever someone spoke to his owner from behind, the little Jack would nudge the owner's leg. The dog was trained to watch the owner, and if the owner did not respond to a sound such as a voice or a car, the dog would alert the owner.

Made me want to get a hearing dog myself, except I live with hearing people and that confuses dogs for the deaf.
 

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Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
 
I'm not sure how to say this in a p.c. way but, the dogs I know are a lot cleaner and smell better than some of the passengers.

I'll bet the moderator is sorry he lifted the restriction on dogs in the forum.
 

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Posted by Ham Radio (Member # 6587) on :
 
This thread is going to the dogs....

 

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Posted by Railroad Bob (Member # 3508) on :
 
Dogs onboard, even the "legit" ones can be a handful for a train crew...I recall a passenger who had a big "service" dog for his PTSD from a war. Even though he was told to stay close when he gave the dog a "business" break at Raton, NM on a #4, he nonchalantly set the dog free and it roamed about a half mile from the train. The conductor went ballistic about it and we ended up with an unecessary delay of an ontime train.

As to service animals of questionable legitimacy, I've seen "service" cats, rats, ducks, raccoons and ferrets, just to name a few in the "Dr. Doolittle's animal wonderland" that was Amtrak during my service time. The craziest critters were what a vet school grad student once had aboard a #11; just before detraining at Davis (CA) he showed me his special carrying case full of tiny, colorful venemous South American snakes! He was doing some toxicology studies.

Personally I am thinking of getting one of those new "micropigs" that are now all the rage in Hollywood among the starlets; they are about the size of a teacup chihuahua. Of course, it would be my "service" pig...and would make a nice companion to Mr. Norman's Newfoundland.

Where is Elly Mae Clampett when we need her...!
 

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Posted by Judy McFarland (Member # 4435) on :
 
Wait until they start roasting chickens in the aisle in coach - no limit to what some people think is OK behavior in a semi-public setting.

And even if some passengers do smell worse than dogs, they usually don't sniff your crotch as you try to pass them in the hallway (or maybe they do?).

(I realize that if we're discussing bagpipers, all bets are off.)
 

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Posted by Kiernan (Member # 3828) on :
 
I think they do roast chickens in the aisle on trains in South America.
 

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Posted by Railroad Bob (Member # 3508) on :
 
Ouch..my service ferret just bit me! As for the chickens we are now discussing, the old City of New Orleans has for years among folks in the "know" been lovingly nicknamed the "Chicken bone" or simply just the "Bone" due to the fried snacks carried aboard by the locals. I've eaten some of it and it was delicious! This thread's neck probably should be put on the chopping-block pretty soon...(smile)
 

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Posted by Kiernan (Member # 3828) on :
 
My father, who grew up during the depression in Arkansas, said that he was sixteen years old before he knew that chickens had anything but necks and backs.
 

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Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
Ms. McFarland, first I hope it is understood that what follows is without any disrepsect. While you note your locatioon as Glendale, WI, a suburb of Milwaukee, possibly you came from a rural agararian background.

I knew first at college (Univ of Ill does have a College of Agriculture) but more so later when I was with the Milwaukee RR, colleagues who were 'from the farm'. Their attitude towards dogs were simply they were just one more farm animal. As I distinctly recall one colleague noting, "just give it a plate of food a day' maybe a pat and what else does an animal need? "It if gets sick, well that's what a baseball bat is good for".

I grew up in a different environment around New York where dogs were loved and cherished - often sometimes more than humans. A comment that has stuck with me over the years is that 'the English (yes I am quite Anglo Saxon - WASP if you will) treat their dogs better than they do their children'. They take their dogs into restaurants (yes they do) but they send their children off to boarding school (I was)'.

But all I know is that on September 12, 2003, I lost the best friend I've ever had in this life. His Memorial here in the house includes the inscription:

Je T'Aime Plus Qu' Hier Moins Que Demain

I love you more than yesterday, less than tomorrow.

My "mostly' Newfoundland (I never had any documentation: I think either some Labrador or Flatcoat got in the mix) was named Lucky (the name he came with), but I was truly the "Lucky One' he came my way.

Rest in peace, my beloved friend.
 

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Posted by Judy McFarland (Member # 4435) on :
 
Glendale is a suburb of Milwaukee, and I did grow up in a town of 6,000 in northeastern NY, but I did not live on "the farm". I understand that for some people, dogs are truly part of the family & beloved companions. However not everyone feels that way. I have friends with dogs, but those dogs are not welcome in my house. If that upsets my friends, they can choose to leave the dog home or not come to my house, as I can choose to not come to their house if their canine friends behave in the manner I have described. I certainly respect and honor your right to love your canine companions, but I also repeat that I would prefer not to have dogs in my environment (and that would include the sleeping cars on LD trains).
 

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Posted by zephyr (Member # 1651) on :
 
Ms. McFarland, we now have at least two things we very much agree on.

To wit, bagpipes and dogs.
 

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Posted by train lady (Member # 3920) on :
 
Gil, I can relate to what you feel as we too had not one but 2 wonderful dogs who were very much a part of our lives. Now we have a granddog who comes to visit quite often.
Judy, I do understand what you are saying. Some people simply do not care for dogs. But I think you have missed the point in one respect. Inside my bedroom with the door closed is my environment. I don't think it is up to me,you or anyone else to decide how someone else's space should be used as long as they don't step on your toes. This may be a clumsy way of expressing my view but I am sure you understand what I am trying to say.
 

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Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
 
This is sorta off-topic, but also sorta on-topic as well......but how does Amtrak (or any other company) handle an ADA issue where the two worlds collide, so to speak? Specifically, what if someone requires a dog for ADA reasons, and another passenger (say, in the same car) suffers from severe allergies to pet hair? Both have valid reasons, yet what they each want/need collide......what happens then?
 

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Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
 
Smitty, seems to me a reasonable conductor would weigh the needs of either party and try to come to an accommodation. Placing them in different cars would work in the vast majority of cases. If they are in the same sleeper and there is just one sleeper, perhaps placing one person upstairs and one person downstairs would help.

A person allergic to pet hair most likely carries an inhalator (in case of asthma) and that sometimes takes care of the problem, all else being equal. Such people have dealt with the allergy all their lives and have developed coping strategies that the conductor could inquire about.

[As an ADA-dependent person myself, I would tell the conductor that any problem my presence caused could easily be solved by letting me ride in the locomotive. ;-)]
 

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Posted by 4021North (Member # 4081) on :
 
I don't dislike dogs, but I disapprove of allowing them in inappropriate places, and of any dogs that are aggressive towards law-abiding people.
 

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Posted by zephyr (Member # 1651) on :
 
Yes, yes, yes Mr. North.

But as for you, Mr. Kisor, it's no, no, no:

quote:

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Originally posted by Henry Kisor:
[As an ADA-dependent person myself, I would tell the conductor that any problem my presence caused could easily be solved by letting me ride in the locomotive. ;-)]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman:
A comment that has stuck with me over the years is that 'the English (yes I am quite Anglo Saxon - WASP if you will) treat their dogs better than they do their children'. They take their dogs into restaurants (yes they do) but they send their children off to boarding school (I was)'.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Henry Kisor:
As an ADA-dependent person myself, I would tell the conductor that any problem my presence caused could easily be solved by letting me ride in the locomotive. ;-)

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Please, let me be the first to assist you in being your carer/helper/dogsbody in that cab.

Geoff M.
 

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Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
While not for one moment am I suggesting that Le Gavroche or the Connaught Hotel Grill are about to welcome quadripeds as their dinner guests, I distinctly recall at a Pub along the Thames in the West End allowing dogs to come to a lunch. Hansel (my Sister's German Short Haired Pointer) simply curled up under the table and if a morsel or two descended his way....well just a little less for the staff to sweep up.

As for State v. Public education (that's "private' anywhere else), I'm only reiterating the comment I once heard.

But then, my Sister returned during 1989 and I haven't had much reason to "go over' since.
 

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Posted by Geoff M (Member # 153) on :
 
Ah, now pubs are different... don't ask me how. But the so-called gastro pubs Iie ones that make more money out of food than drink) often have a bar area for any man and his dog, and a restaurant area where dogs aren't allowed. One can choose to eat bar snacks in the bar area with the risk of canine interference or avoid contact.

Presumably you're aware that we did away with sawdust on the floor decades ago?

Geoff M.
 

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Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
 
Sorry to be so late with this, but it took me a little while to get the information from Amtrak. Except for a long passage defining what a service animal is -- they can range from dogs to monkeys -- and how there is no uniform way of credentialing them, this is what the current on-board employee handbook says about service animals:

How can an employee know that an animal is a service
animal rather than a pet?
• Look for physical indicators on the animal: Some
service animals wear harnesses,vests,capes or
backpacks.Markings on these items or on the
animal’stags may identify it as a sevrice animal.
However,the absence of such equipment does not
necessarily mean the animal is not a service animal.
• Observethe animal’sbehavior: Service animals
are trained to behave properly in public settings.
For example,a properly trained guide dog will
not run around the station,bark or growl at other
passengers,or bite or jump on people.
• Obtain credible verbal assurances from passenger
that the animal is a service animal:You can ask
the passenger:“Is this your pet?”If the passenger
responds that the animal is a service animal and
not a pet,but uncertainty remains about the animal,
you may ask appropriate follow up questions.
You can ask:“What tasks or functions does your
animal perform for you?”or “What has it been
trained to do for you?”Employees may not ask
the passenger what his/her disability is or the
cause of the passenger’s disability.
• Although there may be a few people who try to
“beat the system”by bringing pets on board our
trains,most passengers with disabilities claiming
to have service animals really do have service
animals.Since access for persons with disabilities
traveling with service animals is a civil right
covered under the ADA,employees should err
on the side of permitting access to passenger
areas.If it looks like a service animal and the
customer says it is a service animal-welcome the
animal aboard.
• If it is determined that an animal is not a service
animal or if the service animal poses a direct
threat to others,the animal can be denied access
to Amtrak premises.On the rare occasion that an
animal has to be excluded from Amtrak premises,
you should handle the situation in a polite and
professional manner.When an animal is excluded
from Amtrak premises while en route,the employee
making this decision must complete a Passenger
Incident Report detailing the incident.
• Passengers traveling with service animals may not
be isolated from other passengers.Allergies,incon-
venience,and fear of animals by other passengers
are not valid reasons for denying access to passenger
areas or refusing service to people with service animals.
If a passenger states that he/she has allergies or an
aversion to animals,that person should be shown
to a location as far away from the service animal as
practical.
• Amtrak is not required to do any of the following in
order to accommodate a person traveling with a
service animal:
• Asking another passenger to move or give up a
space to accommodate a service animal.
• Denying transportation to another passenger in
order to provide an accommodation to a passenger
with a service animal.
• Furnishing more than one seat to a person traveling
with a service animal.

-- All this indicates to me that Amtrak is complying with the ADA, and doing so in a reasonable way.
 

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Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
 
Thanks, Henry. That's very interesting! It also answers my allergy question.

So the attendant I had on my train (where the woman had a dog that I'm fairly certain was not a service animal) was wrong. He said that they are not allowed to ask any questions and just accept it. Now I know that this is false. Hard to believe---an Amtrak OBS employee not knowing his responsibilities? Surely I can't be serious! (I am serious...and don't call me Shirley!).
 

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Posted by chrisg (Member # 2488) on :
 
Funny how is all started when I used hot dog copied from an Amtrak menu.

Chris
 

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Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by chrisg:
Funny how is all started when I used hot dog copied from an Amtrak menu.

Chris

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