In looking at options for a late March rail trip, I've just noticed a new post on the Amtrak website stating that the Coast Starlight is not expected to resume it's full rail route through the mudslide area until April now.
Might be able to do the 'relaunch' in coordination with the resumption of service at this rate.
The 'good' news is that a Thruway bus connecting the north and south ends of the route will begin operating between Portland and Sacramento on February 29. The stub Starlights will continue to be coach only with food service provided in a lounge car.
Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
Unfortunately, the "good" news isn't so good. From Amtrak:
""Motorcoaches will make stops in both directions at Sacramento, Medford, Eugene, Salem and Portland, Ore."
So much for Klamath Falls, Chemult, Chico, Redding, etc, etc.....
What a mess. And the "Stublight" is still running without a diner or sleeper. What nonsense!
Posted by amtraxmaniac (Member # 2251) on :
Medford, OR? Are we sure this isn't Greyhound-i-tution?
Yet it makes perfect sense to run it coach only. Sleepers are for just that: SLEEPING: AS IN OVERNIGHT!!! THIS IS A DAY TRAIN. I don't know too may people who pay for a hotel room for just a day, unless its one of those sleezy pay by the hr motels....and the notion of Amtrak being a place for THAT....nevermind...I just ate lunch.
I agree that MAYBE they could profit though with a dining car on this train. Not everyone accepts nurishment consisting of hamburgers, hot dogs, or cold sandwiches.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Somehow, Mr. Maniac, while the rate may be quoted by the hour, I doubt if any of these hostelries noted in the linked material fit the profile you have in mind.
Even on a day trip, some people would prefer their "own space" and would be willing to pay for it. A place of peace & quiet away from the screeching toddler and the friendly drunk can be a godsend. And a bathroom not sullied by the rabble - priceless.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
Well, for all you sleeping car fans out there, myself included, how about a 7PM departure from LA and Sacramento and put those sleepers to good use. Maybe call it the 'Lark'.
Ok, so you would need night vision to see the sights but at least no worries about making connections in LA or SF.
Posted by royaltrain (Member # 622) on :
There is no way I would travel 10-12 hours in a coach. When I travel I go first-class. The only exceptions (excluding commuter trains) are runs that do not have first-class and last no longer than about two hours. When I have travelled on the Coast Starlight I have met a fair number of people travelling in sleepers between L.A. to San Jose, or Sacramento. I even met a person who took a deluxe bedroom from Portland to Seattle. On more than one occasion I took a sleeper for just one stop. There is a market for short-distance sleeper service. In fact I seem to recall that no so long ago Amtrak advertized in its timetable local sleeper service in Florida.
Posted by Mr. Toy (Member # 311) on :
Just to add to the report from Mr. Pressley, a message from NARP reports on the bus bridge from SAC to PDX, and adds this item of interest:
"Union Pacific hopes to reopen the line around March 31, run freight trains for a week to make sure that the line is safe, and restart the Starlight around April 7, though neither of these dates is definite."
I can't help but wonder, though, about the economics of running an overnight bus or two from Sacramento to Portland compared to the cost of a bus bridge from Klamath Falls to Eugene. A relatively short bus bridge would likely attract more passengers than the lengthy one proposed. Either way, I think Amtrak is losing money until the slide is cleared. So if Amtrak is going to lose money, at least they should do it in a way that serves the customer best.
The only thing I can think of that makes Amtrak reluctant to go to KFS is the lack of turnaround facilities, like cleaning crews and availability of suppliers. I would think that on a temporary basis the on-board crew could handle basic cleaning and the train could simply be given extra provisions before departing LA.
Posted by amtraxmaniac (Member # 2251) on :
Mr Norman-LOL-no, not the kind of motels I had in mind. I don't see some 18yr old checking his prom date into an Amtrak Sleeper for some lovin' on the rails. A Superliner Sleeper is no Motel 6 on rails. LOL
Does anyone have some ACTUAL figures on daytime usage of sleepers? It just seems to me that those who would pay for daytime use seem the exception rather than the norm. It doesn't make economic sense to run sleepers on a day train.
Posted by HopefulRailUser (Member # 4513) on :
I must admit I added a roomette to my CHI to MSP trip last June. I called a few days before the trip, inquired on the price and added it then and there. My husband and I then enjoyed the peace and quiet as well as a nice dinner on the Empire Builder. The trip from LAX to SAC is even longer and I would not be averse to doing the same.
Posted by Mr. Toy (Member # 311) on :
I have seen a few Roomettes take on passengers in the mid-route morning for day trips. But they don't equal the number of people leaving rooms vacant after they get off. You could probably fill a few roomettes, maybe half of one car, but the bedrooms would likely go vacant for the entire trip. Probably not the most economical use of equipment on a day train.
Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :
Back in the 70's, when I first began traveling by AMTRAK, they used to market an accommodation called "seat in a roomette," which several fellow railfans would often use. This accommodation was more expensive than a coach seat, but not as expensive as the standard roomette charge for whatever city-pair segment you were on, but you were not allowed to pull the bed down while you were in the accommodation.
Concerning running the "Stublight" (as you folks so affectionately call it -- LOL), I too did not understand why it is not being run all the way to Klamath Falls from LAX, but I believe Mr. Toy answered that concern a few posts up -- lack of turning facilities. The same would be true about Eugene, and why they can't run the "Northern Stublight" from EUG to Portland and Seattle.
Posted by PullmanCo (Member # 1138) on :
RRRich brings up a good point, one that I've tried to make over and over again.
What the Pullman Company patented as a Roomette in the 1930s (enclosed space for 1 person with full seat, washstand, and hopper, is a wholly different thing from what Amtrak mis-names a Roomette (enclosed section with no toilet on Superliner, and actually narrow seats to boot!) for both the SL and VL cars!
Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
Let me try to clarify something about turning the train in Klamath Falls, and why I keep saying that this mess with the Starlight is absolutely ridiculous and extremely poorly mismanaged by Amtrak.
Turning the train at KFS (Klamath Falls) is NOT a problem---not by a long-shot. The train has been turned at KFS numerous times, without any issues whatsoever. KFS is a fully staffed station, with no parking problems (for cars OR for an Amtrak train!). They handle checked baggage daily, they handle daily motor coach operations for passengers transferring from #14 to #8 (Empire Builder) by putting people on the coach for a very long 9 hour bus ride to Pasco, Washington. Also, KFS is a routine service stop for the daily Coast Starlight where they "water" the train and empty all of their garbage. It's not like we're talking about a little "AmShack" train station (like Chemult)---this place is equipped to handle this very thing!
Also keep this mind....When the Starlight is running the normal, full route (Los Angeles to Seattle), the northbound train makes a DAILY stop at Oakland, California. At this stop, the Oakland Amtrak commissary truck meets the train EVERY NIGHT with a pallet of food (re-stocking the lounge car and dining car). So the issue of no commissary at KFS is NOT the issue---they simply add more food to the pallet at Oakland, which would be around 9:30PM or so if it's on-time, with KFS being the next morning shortly after sunrise. IT IS NOT A BIG DEAL and is a non-issue!!!!!
Also keep in mind that several Amtrak long-distance trains such as the Zephyr, Chief, Builder, etc ROUTINELY have passengers and on-board crews on the train for 3 days and 2 nights. TWO NIGHTS! This is what we're talking about for a Coast Starlight that goes up to KFS as #14, and turns around and comes home as #11. Same train, same on-board crew, and a grand total of TWO nights. There is plenty of food, water, linens/towels, etc, on-board that train to handle this! There is NO NEED to re-stock the train with supplies at KFS---it is handled at Oakland. Same thing for the return trip---re-supply at Oakland in the morning as train #11. Don't forget, #11 is also watered and re-supplied at Sacramento as well!
One last point......KFS is a ROUTINE crew-change point for the Coast Starlight. Amtrak ALREADY has contracts with hotels in Klamath Falls! Taxis are already there. Bus operations are already there. A storage track is already there. Water and garbage facilities are already there. EVERYTHING IS ALREADY IN PLACE!!!
And Amtrak is running a fricking BUS from Sacramento to Portland, Oregon?? GIVE ME A BREAK!
Yes, I have some passion towards this topic. From every angle I look at this, Amtrak dug a hole at the very beginning, and has not stopped digging. One of the poorest, screwed up, mismanaged things I've **EVER** seen Amtrak do.
Thanks for listening....
Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
One quick additional point I forgot to make:
Eugene, Oregon is not an issue with turning a #11 coming from Seattle, either. Eugene has a yard that routinely handles the storage of the Amtrak Cascades trains. The Coast Starlight (#14) has been turned at this location MANY times when there have been issues north of Eugene, forcing #14 to annul. Similar to KFS, Amtrak has things already in-place at Eugene for crews.
This whole thing is ridiculous.
Posted by Mr. Toy (Member # 311) on :
Smitty, I agree with you 100%. I mentioned above the "turning" issue because that is what Amtrak has argued, in letters from Amtrak posted in another forum. Here is a relevant excerpt from a letter to RailPAC from Alexander Kumant posted at the Coast Starlight Communities Network, a route support team recently formed by NARP:
quote: This decision was made after careful consideration of projected passenger counts and revenues, compared to bus bridge costs and added employee-related expenses, particularly, the relocation of mechanical forces to Klamath Falls to turn and service the train set that would terminate there is service continued to operate during this extended track outage. The bus bridge costs are not insignificant, approximately $12,000-$15,000 a day. We also considered that, as stated above, usage of the Coast Starlight in late January is less than at other times of year, and the challenges presented by running stub trains and bus bridges, especially in winter.
Given that Amtrak operated a KFS-EUG bus bridge during the weeks of the Oakridge tunnel fire about three years ago, I don't understand why it can't be done again. I don't know what "mechanical forces" Mr. Kummant refers to. As Smitty pointed out KFS is already a service stop and crew change point. Turning the train only requires relocation of the locomotives and baggage car to the other end of the train. Surely Amtrak and UP crews already in place at KFS can handle that. What additional mechanical services are required?
Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :
Mr. Toy and Smitty -- I thought by "turning facilities," you meant a yard, a wye, or a turntable -- some mechanism to actually reverse the locomotive AND to relocate it to the other end of the train for the return trip. If the CS were "turned" at KFS, would the lead loco have to run in reverse all the way back to LAX then? Of course, maybe AMTRAK could equip the consist with 2 locomotives, one facing each direction, and maybe that would solve the "turning" problem.
Plese pardon my locomotive ignorance......
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
To locos back to back should be the norm, given the mediocre level of reliability that has been the Amtrak experience lately.
Also, a look at topozone USGS maps and mapquest aerial photo, it appears that there is at least one and possibly two wyes just south of KF. One about 1.5 miles south going to the west across a bridge, but in the photo one leg may be taken up. The other about another 1.2 miles further south going to the east that does appear in the photo to be all there.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
News Release USDA Forest Service Pacific Northwest Region Preliminary Geologic Investigation of Coyote Mountain Landslide Date: January 30, 2008 Contact: Judith McHugh 541.225.6305 Oakridge -- "Slope instability is a natural part of the West Cascades ecosystem." With those words 30 year veteran geologist Doug Shank summed up his preliminary investigation of the 60 acre Frazier slide that closed the Union Pacific Railroad just east of Oakridge, OR. Despite being hampered by snow, Shank spent a day scrambling over the failed slope. "The greatest portion of the slide is in the timbered area, and that is where the slide likely originated" says Shank. "All the standing timber, including the old growth, was straight, indicating that the area has been stable for at least five centuries, and likely longer. Additionally, the depth of the failure zone is deeper than the rooting depth of trees and so loss of root strength is not a likely component in the cause of the failure."
The slide has two parts: an upper 20 acres where the failure originated and the 40 acre path the saturated debris and rafted trees made as the slide thundered down the mountain. Approximately 5 acres of the upper portion of the slide was harvested in 1992 and planted in 1995; this portion of the slide did not move as far downslope as did the more heavily timbered portion of the slide. All timbered areas considered for harvest are evaluated for slope stability and other resource concerns prior to harvest. Geologist Shank could find no evidence that suggested the harvested area, or the access road above the harvest unit, caused the slope failure.
Despite the continuing heavy snowfall, lead geologist Mark Leverton has been working closely with the railroad personnel to get the rail line operating, "I'm really impressed by the level of cooperation we're experiencing during this clean-up. Everyone onsite is doing what is necessary to protect the resources and get the rail running again." While the mechanism for failure is unclear and may never be determined, further investigation will occur when spring snowmelt allows geologists and engineers to view the site again.
Posted by 4021North (Member # 4081) on :
This is more of a general comment, but I wanted to say more about why some people are upset with the shut-down of the Starlight. I don't like the general direction that it augurs for Amtrak.
People might have been less concerned had it not been for what happened to the Sunset Limited. It was supposed to be restored after the hurricane, yet to this day there is no train from New Orleans to Florida. That is probably on the minds of many who want to keep the Coast Starlight running.
I simply note that there have been some efforts among policy-makers and some advocates to discontinue long-distance trains, that there can be delayed effects of all that, and that people might be starting to see red flags when the first long-distance trains are discontinued. I don't think any of that is unreasonable or speculation -- maybe the reasons are for another topic. But the talk about discontinuing long-distance trains, and the Sunset East, would not put anyone at ease about the Coast Starlight.
No one wants to blame Union Pacific, or expects the railroad to do more with their limited resources. Neither did Amtrak management have sole responsibility for the decision to discontinue the Starlight, or the decisions they are being forced to make now. The ultimate responsibility is shared among many. The need to continue the Coast Starlight uninterrupted was, and is, real and legitimate. That is, or should be, the focus of passenger rail advocates.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
First Mr. 4021, let it be said that even if I disagree with the premise of any of the advocacy groups whose agenda I have knowledge, I respect that your thoughts, while possibly formulated through participation with such a group, appear to be your own.
Further I note and respect your magnanimity towards Union Pacific; they want the Shasta Route restored to service as quickly as possible. While I doubt if any advocacy group officially holds that the UP is "dragging feet' in the route's restoration so that maybe, just maybe, Amtrak will pack up and never return, I would expect that such thoughts have been expressed at other discussion boards where the maturity level at such cannot be compared with that found here.
At this time, I'm quite confident that after a reasonable 'break in" period, The Coast Starlight will be returned to full service. The busteetoot uses I-5 over the Cascades so that to serve Kalanath Falls and Redding with such is not reasonable or practical(Chico has Ambus connecting with Capitols). Presently there is other rail service between Eugene and Seattle which will suffice until restoration. While Mr. Smith previously reported passenger trains have been turned at Kalamath Falls, it is simply more efficient to annul the service North of Sacramento "for the duration". For example a 'temporary' on-board service crew base would have to be established; possibly "suitable lodging" is not available. Further, supervision would have to be relocated to Kalamath Falls and a temporary commissary would have to be established - and when the line reopens, all of this "overhead' would have to be shut down.
Let us accept that Amtrak is mandated to seek economy and efficiency in their operations and this action of suspending the Starlight North of an established maintenance facility, i.e. Sacramento, is indicative of such.
Posted by RussM (Member # 3627) on :
This may be a bit off topic, but I never cease to be amazed at how rigid and inflexible the operating rules are for Amtrak. During my last trip on the Coast Starlight, the train stopped about five miles short of Klamath Falls, and waited about two hours for a replacement crew to arrive. A few minutes extra to get into Klamath would not have been a serious safety threat. If they had done so, the passengers could have gotten off and walked around, and probably would not have minded the delay. I think that a little common sense in our government would go a long way to improve passenger rail service in this country.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Mr. Russ M, apparently the crew "died" under the Hours of Service Law, and inconvenient or not, the LAW is THE LAW!
If either the Conductor or Engineer has been on duty for twelve continuous hours, the train stops until that crew is relieved. The only exception is an emergency, and any road's Rule Book says that an operating officer must "sign off' on the exception being taken.
Unfortunately, passenger inconvenience, or for that matter a shipper's production requirements, do not give rise to an emergency.
Posted by ehbowen (Member # 4317) on :
What he said.
While I have not personally experienced a "dead" crew on an Amtrak train, on our trip from Houston to L.A. a UP freight crew "died" ahead of us in one of the most barren stretches of the New Mexico desert. They were not even able to get off the main line onto a siding, so traffic was blocked in both directions. I'll leave the ensuing scene to your imagination, but it involved four-wheel-drive jeeps ferrying crew members back and forth to trains over the desert and we were lucky to get into Los Angeles "only" six hours down.
Do I wish that there was some "wiggle room" in the law? Honestly, yes. If those who observed it could be trusted to keep the spirit while stretching the letter. However, experience shows that this is not the case; once the camel's nose is in the tent it is not long before the rest of the camel follows. Or, what might be well and truly intended as an exceptional circumstance soon becomes, with a wink and a nod, standard operating procedure.
The Hours of Service law was passed for a reason. It is still needed. While I look forward to a brighter day when reason and common sense will prevail, in this present fallen world the law needs to have teeth. I don't want the locomotive cabs out there filled with zombies.
Posted by 4021North (Member # 4081) on :
I agree that the Hours of Service Law needs to be strictly complied with, and I don't think the law is what is at fault here. Couldn't some more effort be made to relieve the crews beforethere is a problem such as stopping on the main line or at an inaccessible location? In the case mentioned above the replacement crew should have planned to be on time. Common sense could take forms other than trying to bend the law, like being prepared and allowing extra time.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
"The Pass is open; the Pass is Open"
Anyone else remember that line of script form the movie "Seven Brides for Seven Brothers"?
Starting April 15 (Train 14) and April 16 (Train 11):
- Full service trains from LAX-Klamath Falls (minus Parlour Cars) - Bus Bridge from Klamath Falls-Eugene - Coach/Cafe train from Eugene-Seattle
More details on the Google Group.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
As of a few moments ago, the website confirms that there will be a train LAX-KFS with Sleeper and Diner effective April 15. There will also be a Coach only train EUG-SEA #1014 effective April 16.
The website shows a LAX-SEA train effective May 6.
It appears that the LAX-KFS 14(15) could be possible in that UP is winding down the line restoration efforts now that "the Pass is open" and that "suitable lodging" will be available for Amtrak on-Board personnel. It could also represent a "cave in' to those advocacy groups 'demanding" a train operate as far North as possible.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
From the news article Mr. Norman linked:
"Richmond said three to seven of the 15 daily trains that have been affected will start traveling the line in the evening while work continues at the site during the day.
She said the railroad did not have an estimate for when all traffic might resume or when Amtrak might start running passenger trains.
"We've set so many deadlines for ourselves and the public, that at this point we are not even going to speculate," she said."
So . . . given that someone somewhere earlier said at least 2 weeks of freight before Amtrak starts back, the first of May seems like a possible train return date. Therefore, maybe only a couple of weeks of bus bridge before the full train is back.
Posted by amtraxmaniac (Member # 2251) on :
Curious Query: How is the train turned at KFS? Is there a wye? Do they just disconnect the locos, throw a switch and hook them up on the other end of the train????Or throw a CAL Car Cab on the back and operate in push-pull all the way back to LAX (LOL-improbable as it sounds).
Posted by amtraxmaniac (Member # 2251) on :
I guess this can only mean some hotel/restaurant in KFS won the lottery. LOL
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
quote:Originally posted by 4021North: I agree that the Hours of Service Law needs to be strictly complied with, and I don't think the law is what is at fault here. Couldn't some more effort be made to relieve the crews beforethere is a problem such as stopping on the main line or at an inaccessible location? In the case mentioned above the replacement crew should have planned to be on time. Common sense could take forms other than trying to bend the law, like being prepared and allowing extra time.
This is normally the plan. If it works, then so far as the passengers know, nothing has happened. It is like a lot of things in this life: When things go right, nobody notices. When things go wrong, it happends in the most public way possible.
Posted by HopefulRailUser (Member # 4513) on :
Well, well. If I end up busing to Eugene and coach to SEA I wonder how many of my AGR points I can get back. And how long that battle will take. Wonder how they will handle the meals on the northern leg since there apparently will be no diner for the former sleeper passengers. But, not to worry. Gil says the website will book the train all the way as of May 6th and I am looking at May 8th. Oh, please, please let it happen.
Posted by Railroad Bill (Member # 5097) on :
Great news! So maybe our May 28th departure in a sleeper from LA to PDX will actually take place. Still waiting to cancel alternative hotel and transportation plans, but the prospects look better than last month. Wonder if the Pacific Parlour Cars will be on by end of May??
Railroad & Mrs. Bill in great anticipation of another California Amtrak Trip.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
quote:Originally posted by 4021North: I agree that the Hours of Service Law needs to be strictly complied with, and I don't think the law is what is at fault here. Couldn't some more effort be made to relieve the crews beforethere is a problem such as stopping on the main line or at an inaccessible location? In the case mentioned above the replacement crew should have planned to be on time. Common sense could take forms other than trying to bend the law, like being prepared and allowing extra time.
I was once on an Amtrak train where the crew of a freight 'died on the law' ahead of us. The Amtrak conductor made a hasty announcement that came across sounding like "the engineer has died and we're just waiting on a new one to relieve him....."
It took several announcements to straighten out the concerns of passengers that day!
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Mr. Presley, I can recall a "thirtysomething" clerk, although having been with the MILW for some 10 years, bid and was awarded a job in the Time Revisor's office.
Even though she was from a railroad family (wasn't everyone back then?), somehow she had never heard the term you note before and was heartstruck when she reviewed a timeslip stating to the effect "Relieved; died at Kirkland'. Her Father knew the Locomotive Engineer filing the time document.
Even "on the railroad" the term can cause confusion.
Posted by tommers207 (Member # 3930) on :
There is at least one parlour car back in LA. It was deadheading on the back of the SWC I was on for the last couple of days. The inside looks really nice too!
Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
Tom---pictures???
Was the interior all assembled, or did they have a lot of stuff to do in Los Angeles to complete it from what you could see?
Posted by sbalax (Member # 2801) on :
I was in Carpinteria today having a burger at "The Spot" (to the oceanside of the tracks just before (NB) the station) today and saw the "Stublight" roar through. Kind of sad to see this short train. Hopefully we will see the Starlight restored to even greater than previous glory soon.
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