On Saturday, rail passengers and other concerned citizens of the Gulf Coast region will gather at New Orleans' Union Passenger Terminal to hear Amtrak officials discuss the railroad's plans for restoring passenger train service between New Orleans and Florida along the former route of the Sunset Limited and give their input.
We apologize for the very short notice, but we thought you would like to know about this opportunity to make your voice heard. Passenger rail advocates should continue to send a strong message that the region needs this vital link in our national system restored, preferably with a daily train connecting to other Amtrak routes at New Orleans and Jacksonville.
Here are the details:
What: Public discussion of alternatives for restored passenger rail service between New Orleans and Florida
When: Saturday, June 6, 2009, 12:30 PM
Where: Union Passenger Terminal (Amtrak & Greyhound station), 1001 Loyola Avenue, New Orleans, Louisiana
Presenters: Amtrak representatives Joy Smith, Brian Rosenwald, and Todd Stennis, as well as local and regional community leaders.
Free and open to the public.
Please email narp@narprail.org if you have any questions.
Sincerely,
Malcolm Kenton NARP Transportation Assistant
National Association of Railroad Passengers | 900 Second Street NE | Suite 308
Posted by dmwnc1959 (Member # 2803) on :
What happens then if they have a poor showing? What is the time difference between the receipt of the mailing and the meeting? I sure hope it wasnt just 2 days. Thats inexcusable. Also I wonder will they have a similar meeting in Orlando for Florida residents?
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
I think everything is decided, Amtrak is now on a sale the plan tour. The sad part is everyone is embracing the bad plan.
In the future Amtrak will add sleepers and scientist will discover amazonian women on the Moon.
Posted by dmwnc1959 (Member # 2803) on :
quote:Originally posted by gp35: ...and scientist will discover amazonian women on the Moon.
Oooooh! Like Sinatra sang, 'Fly me to the moon'.... j/k
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
As I noted over at the "nod-nod-wink-wink" site, it would appear any initiative prior to release of the "study" mandated under RSIA'08 Div B (PRIIA) is premature. Possibly this study will conclude that there are more meaningful allocations of funds appropriated to Amtrak than restoration of a service that can only be considered marginal at best.
While Amtrak's means to remove this service they are obviously not interested in operating (lest we forget, did the 2008 Cascade Summit or thereabouts line closure become an "excuse" to kill the Coast Starlight?) by obviating the 180 Day Notice under ARAA '97 can be questioned, such does not establish that there is any public necessity for such. Advocates should be thankful that Amtrak is willing to ask three of their officials to "come in Saturday" and "hear 'em out'. There are more pressing matters on Amtrak's plate at this time.
Posted by Mike Smith (Member # 447) on :
I've met Joy Smith a number of times. We think we are cousins, somewhere down the line.
With her there, the meeting should be informative. I wish I could go.
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
What gets my boiler boiling is all these years I thought more money and support for Amtrak would yield better and daily Sunset service. Just the opposite is happening.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
I wonder if this 'book tour' will receive higher ratings than Norm Minneta's press junket a few years ago?
Perhaps Amtrak management is having a weekend retreat in New Orleans and felt like this would be a great photo op.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
I guess we'll have to wait and see, but if GP35 is correct, daily service to San Antonio and reviving service to Orlando or some FL point sounds like a good trade off for losing the Sunset as we know it.
Sure, I'd like to see sleepers and diners continue, but extending service into Florida again and going daily makes a lot of sense to me. Also this would be a good place to stick those much maligned cross country cafe cars - especially if it results in a full diner back on the Capitol.
Posted by sojourner (Member # 3134) on :
Sounds like what I heard in New Orleans in March is definitely going to happen. Mr Norman, you owe me $$$ if it does, right?!?!?
Posted by DeeCT (Member # 3241) on :
I can not seem to find an old timetable for the Sunset Ltd - so can some one please answer a couple of questions.
How many hours would it take for a New Orleans to Orlando trip?
If they were to run without sleepers would an early morning departure from New Orleans get one into Orlando at a time one could reasonably check into accomodations there (and the same in other direction)?
Would overniting in NOL allow a next day connection to Sunset Ltd, Crescent, City of New Orleans and the Florida train?
Dee
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
quote:Originally posted by palmland: I guess we'll have to wait and see, but if GP35 is correct, daily service to San Antonio and reviving service to Orlando or some FL point sounds like a good trade off for losing the Sunset as we know it.
Sure, I'd like to see sleepers and diners continue, but extending service into Florida again and going daily makes a lot of sense to me. Also this would be a good place to stick those much maligned cross country cafe cars - especially if it results in a full diner back on the Capitol.
Oh it's a good idea because we get the scraps, ccc, dumped on us. It is a bad plan. I prefer tri-weekly Sunset over this plan.
Posted by SilverStar092 (Member # 2652) on :
I agree it's bad if they don't run sleepers...not great value for my guest rewards points. On the other hand, at this point I'd take a sleeperless train over no train at all BUT Amtrak needs to assure us they will add a sleeper as soon as one becomes available. If they used the City of NOL consist that lays overnight in NOL, only 1 more train set is needed for a JAX turn. It's evident that this is the plan as there seems no talk of ORL or MIA except via connection. That's fine except that it increases costs as when one changes trains, Amtrak seldom, if ever, offers a through rate instead of charging two segments. Thanks to all of the support from fellow posters except one - we Floridians need a better link to the west and midwest than via Washington.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
"Off the top of my head", I recall my Feb 04 #1 Sunset East departed Orlando 1PM and arrived New Orleans 1010A. Owing to very generous "padding" into NO, it arrived "more or less" on time.
Now to continue, Mr. Silverstar's comment is noted without umbrage on my part. What is different about Sunset East and the rest of the LD is that, and I reiterate, it is the one route (I guess must be considered "active" in that it is only 'temporarily suspended') that Amtrak does not appear interested in operating. Yes there is the "study" under PRIA '08, yes, officials are "coming in Saturday to hear the grass roots out", and yes it seems to have support here at this forum - and of course (drum roll) NARP.
But the fact is simply Sunset East was the weakest link in the LD system. On the preexisting schedule, it served its only major source of on-line traffic, Tallahassee, at "0dark30".
Unlike The Cardinal, Sunset East obviously does not have any legislative caucus that could adversely affect Amtrak interests, for if it did, politically astute Amtrak would have restored such at first opportunity. In short, it was a loser and one lady came blowing into town giving Amtrak an opportunity to be rid of it.
If anything is going to backfire on Amtrak's strategy in this matter, it is that the "temporarily suspended' standing is weak at best and in essence represents a service discontinued without required 180 Day Notice under ARAA '97. If Amtrak is required to restore this service, rest assured Notice would be served a day later, and for the remaining 179 days of its life (when has Amtrak ever been denied authority to discontinue any train?) there would be a service that even Mr. "we get the scraps dumped on us" GP-35 would find unacceptable. A C-CCC (Coach & X Country Cafe) consist would be too much; likely it would be an "oh so 70's Chinese house of ill-repute" motif 84 seat A-I whose next assignment will to be to Bear for rebuilding, and maybe a "panic box' for F&B.
Posted by Geoff M (Member # 153) on :
Timings were stretched over the years: I remember in around 2007 #2 arrived in Orlando mid-afternoon, 2-3pm sometime - and it sometimes made it. Then it was stretched and it still didn't always make it.
I'd find some older timetables but I'm installing a new bathroom and the office is full of tools and equipment.
Geoff M.
Posted by Geoff M (Member # 153) on :
Further to my earlier posting, reading through some of the travelogues on TrainWeb, I notice a departure time of 10:55pm from New Orleans with an arrival time in Orlando of 3:20pm. This was in 1999 which vaguely seems about the same as my 1997 trip (NOT 2007 as I wrote above!).
The Sunset used to turn via a wye to the south of Orlando and head back up to Sanford for cleaning and servicing, before performing the same procedure in reverse the following day. When the Sunset was late it would frequently terminate at Sanford instead, to give an extra hour or two of servicing time.
Geoff M.
Posted by Ocala Mike (Member # 4657) on :
Just curious, Geoff M., but when the Sunset would terminate "at Sanford", do you mean the Sanford station or the Autotrain station? As I'm sure you know, there is no Sanford station on-line now, and a new AT station is in the works.
Posted by Geoff M (Member # 153) on :
Mike, I wasn't aware of the Sanford discontinuation. Back when the Sunset was running I assume they used the passenger station - fortunately I never had the experience of detraining there. From there it was just a few moves to get into the servicing area rather than the out-and-back to south Orlando.
Geoff M.
Posted by DeeCT (Member # 3241) on :
Geoff,
Thanks for the info.
Seems the time frame for lenghth of trip would be bordering on my maximum "do-able" in coach limits.
Dee
Posted by amtrak92 (Member # 14343) on :
In the fall winter 1994 timetable it has it as. 5:28pm Orlando 5:35pm 11 am New Orleans 10:40pm It also went to Miami in that year. It took about 18 hours.
Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :
Geoff -- the regular Sanford passenger station has been demolished, and no Silver Service trains stop there any more. Auto Train is only a block or two away from the old passenger station, and is accessed by a turnout from the main line just N of the old Sanford station. Auto Train operations are quite visible from any of the Silver Service trains passing through the area.
Posted by Geoff M (Member # 153) on :
Thanks Rich. I looked at Google Earth and you've confirmed what I thought. I assume when terminating at Sanford the Sunset used the regular platform before backing up (twice) to access the maintenance area though with hindsight I guess it could have also used the passenger area of the AT terminal. Just depends on what was going on at the particular time I guess.
Geoff M.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
It appears the most cost effective proposal is simply to restore what was lost. However to do that Capital Costs are projected to be $32M.
All told, this is a 78 page epitaph for Sunset East; requisceat in pacem.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
It appears to be an excellent case of assume the conclusion and then do what it takes to get there. Rather curious that the passenger loading is projected to be much higher with the continuation of the CONO arrangement.
Also: Note tha long layover at New Orleans eastbound with the restoration of through Sunset scheme. Looks like they assume that UP will be back to their usual delay tactics after this starts back.
Posted by PullmanCo (Member # 1138) on :
At some point the economy will turn up, and at some point the limited number of exits from the West Coast will be back in play, to wit:
- UP (ex-SP) on the Sunset Route
- UP and BNSF over Cajon to Barstow. That's all LA traffic and BNSF's Bay area traffic
- UP (ex-SP) over Donner
- UP (ex-WP) through the Feather River Canyon
- UP up the Columbia River Gorge (Portand)
- BNSF (ex-GN) from Seattle
- BNSF (ex NP/SP&S) from Seattle
If you have a better idea on how to move containers and cars out of LA, I'd love to hear it.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
From further review of the material, it should be evident that this report was prepared with one objective in mind - justify the management decision that Amtrak made as soon as, if not before, the route was restored to service that it wanted Sunset East gone.
But then, this is hardly the only instance, public or private sector notwithstanding, in which a report is crafted with the above noted objective in mind.
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
The trouble with reports, Mr. Norman, is that you can read exactly what you want to read between the lines - just like low life journalists do to get tabloid headlines. I'm sure a pro-Amtrak supporter would equally be able to read the report in a very positive light. I prefer to take the facts, figures, and projections as simply that.
It's interesting that the CSX portion of the journey is slated to be the pre-1999 timings. Seems Amtrak are optimistic that the improvements since Katrina will help.
I think they've missed a trick with the overnight Gulf Wind. With an 18-hour journey surely the ridership would be higher if the train was to leave early morning and arrive late evening, rather than boarding or detraining in the small hours of the morning? Could be reasons why this is not possible, if so then I haven't noticed them.
I'm still skeptical of the CONO extension, mainly because the IC/CN timekeeping is pretty good and the CSX not so I would see the CONO suffering. Only about 2 hours layover at New Orleans in either direction.
The SRT and ART calculations given are interesting. In the UK we would call those engineering and performance allowance, and pathing allowance respectively. I may do some calculations to see how much equivalent time or percent is given to our trains - not quite comparing apples with apples but interesting nonetheless.
A minimum 2 years before any of this sees the light of day is somewhat disappointing though.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
The Gulf Wind schedule is surprisingly similar to the mid 1960's and eariler schedule that L&N-SAL ran for the train of the same name. It had decently good ridership for most of its life and lasted up to A-day. The catch is that I-10 was not complete even at the time of its death. The track conditions betwen Flomaton and Tallahassee, at least are better than they have ever been. Speed limt of 59 mph is also 4 mph higher than the old L&N 55 mph limit, but that is insignificant in the scheme of things.
Posted by SilverStar092 (Member # 2652) on :
The media here in North FL is hyping this as "Amtrak may return to the area". Most folks I've spoken to at Amtrak think this route is coming back but everyone concedes it will take time. 20 months to 4 years is absurd and this alone shows how bureaucratic Amtrak is. For years they have not attempted to secure additional equipment which has prevented increasing capacity or adding routes. The details are absurd as the study calls for platform construction at stations which have perfectly good platforms. As others have stated, this reflects Amtrak's desire to maintain the status quo. Hopefully the powers to be will force them to fast track the restoration of this missing link.
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Like Sinatra sang, 'Fly me to the moon'.... j/k