I missed out on the New Haven RR Talgos, have had no reason to be near those in Wash State, and have otherwise had one ride in this life aboard such, namely Irun to Madrid. You can tell my enthusiasm for this equipment simply runneth over.
Posted by sbalax (Member # 2801) on :
I have been assured by Amtrak (in an e-mail response) that the Talgo service from Seattle to Vancouver, B.C. WILL resume on July 25, 2009! That's good news for Vikki, Art and us! We are all planning on using the service to get to Vancouver for cruises.
Frank in Sunny SBA
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
If the line is really curvey, which Portland to Seattle, and I think also Seattle to Vancouver is, then a Talgo, or a more robust version of one, makes sense. For something as near straight as Chicago to Milwaukee, no.
Posted by TBlack (Member # 181) on :
Question: what's the definition of Talgo? It seems like there's no standard appearance, other than being a light-weight car; and does it refer just to the rolling stock or to the motive power as well?
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
I enjoyed our Talgo trip to Vancouver a couple years ago (and a much earlier one from Madrid to Seville) and think it is an appropriate train for relatively short distances that negotiates a route with lots of curves. Former Southern and Seaboard routes through the Piedmont region might qualify.
I liked the amenities on the Talgo - curtains at your seat (biz class), monitor to track your progress, and a nice diner with food superior to normal Amtrak fare. I did not like the relatively rough ride you got - although I'm sure some of that was BNSF track.
Posted by sojourner (Member # 3134) on :
Although I liked the Talgo trip down from Vancouver to Seattle, which I took twice, I found it surprisingly noisy! And I liked even more the Superliner trip we took up from Seattle to Vancouver, which had one of the good observation-style lounge cars, fantastic for viewing the waters as we rode by. OTOH, about 2 weeks later, I took a Superliner down from Vancouver to Seattle that had a weirdly configured lounge car, with the seats facing in! And a few days later I took a Superliner from Seattle to Salem Oregon that was in horrid condition; air conditioner broke after Portland!
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
quote:Originally posted by TBlack: Question: what's the definition of Talgo? It seems like there's no standard appearance, other than being a light-weight car; and does it refer just to the rolling stock or to the motive power as well?
The Talgo cars ride lower to the rails, each car is shorter than a conventional car, and two cars share a single truck where they join together. The sharing of the truck is where the tremendous weightsavings comes in.
Personally, I've ridden the Cascades talgo and found them to be far more pleasant of a ride than anything Amfleet.......had to do with the huge windows.
Posted by Ocala Mike (Member # 4657) on :
Talgo refers to the manufacturer, a Spanish company. The two cars sharing a single truck = articulated.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
There are really a lot of unanswered questions here; the biggest of course is whither the funding?
Local/FTA? ARRA '09? Omnibus spending; Federal and/or Local level?
Secondly, it appears that Talgo USA has a "hell on wheels" business plan; they seem ready to set up shop, both manufacture and maintenance, in whatever jurisdiction is willing to give them some business. If this Wisconsin initiative is to move forth (while obviously there is intent, I must question to what extent this represents at this time a "done deal"), there now means there will be an "off in the wilderness" maintenance facility for this equipment resulting in less operational efficiency.
To continue, if this equipment is funded (and the Governor's press release is conveniently silent on this point) by Wisconsin's allocation of the "$8B for HSR" under ARRA '09, will there be sufficient "buy American' content to meet the Act's rather undefined provisions regarding such. Final assembly will of course be done in Wisconsin (Janesville?), but the running gear will be foreign sourced. Possibly US sourced raw materials such as aluminum for the car bodies could help, but could these bodies be fabricated here - ideally in Wisconsin.
Finally, while shiny new equipment will be backdrop for the photo ops, one must wonder what the farepaying public will be in for come five years of revenue service. As I recall from my one Talgo ride, no matter where one sat in the car, it was as if you were sitting atop the trucks. This equipment hardly seems suitable for the straightaway Chi-Milw run, but alas, politics are politics.
Posted by MDRR (Member # 2992) on :
Mr Norman, I certainly have to agree, It seems like "overkill" for a 90 mile, 90 minute trip...
Posted by Judy McFarland (Member # 4435) on :
The plan in Wisconsin is to have the trains run to Madison from Chicago, and possibly eventually to the Twin Cities. Actually what I read in the Madison paper is that the Milwaukee-Madison link will come first, then Hiawatha (or maybe the much debated KRM? - Kenosha-Racine-Milwaukee to connect to Metra?). There is a lot of Milwaukee-Madison traffic now (and good bus service). The grumbling I hear about the train is that the Madison stop will be the airport, and of the course the Badger bus goes downtown and to the UW campus. There will have to be some really good shuttle service between the airport and Capitol Square (for example) to make people abandon the Badger bus. I rode a Talgo train Portland - Seattle a couple years ago and found it a VAST improvement over the aging Hiawatha cars.
Posted by MetSox (Member # 6035) on :
I rode a Talgo from Irun to Madrid two months ago. It was a class 130 "Alvia" set with ugly duckbills on the engines at both ends. The faster 102s are even uglier. The interior was pleasant enough, though. What was interesting was that you could really hear what type of track we were riding on. It was pretty noisy on jointed rail but got quiet on welded rail. As with a few other Talgos, this train had adjustable wheelsets so it could run on the wider Spanish gauge tracks as well as the standard gauge high speed line from Valladolid to Madrid. I understand that this line is rated for 320 KPH (217 MPH) but it never went faster than 200 KPH (124).
A week later I took an overnight Talgo from Barcelona to Paris, which also changed gauges (and engines) at the border, Port Bou/Cerbere.
I would also agree that a Talgo would be better suited to a longer route than Chicago-Milwaukee. There are plenty of other Diesel Multiple Unit trains in Europe that would make more sense for such a short haul; perhaps a Danish Flexliner, which was once tested on the LA-SD line. If the Hiawatha line were ever extended to Green Bay, it would make sense. Or possibly Chicago-Carbondale(-Memphis?), if that line were upgraded.
I just hope they use an engine that that has a roofline that harmonizes better with the low Talgo cars. Those F59s (built for double deckers) look ridiculous on the Cascades.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
No surprise; Talgo plans to pull up stakes in Milwaukee after the four trains, two for Wisconsin and two more for Oregon, are delivered during 2012;
Brief passage:
MILWAUKEE -- One day after Wisconsin lost its funding for high-speed rail, train maker Talgo said it will shut down it's Milwaukee manufacturing plant in early 2012.
The company said, with no Wisconsin high-speed rail line, there will be no trains to build and no way to keep that facility up and running.
The assembly work on Talgo trains has just begun, but suddenly the company's Milwaukee manufacturing operation is facing the end of the line
I wouldn't be the least surprised if Wisconsin declines to take delivery of the two Talgos for some contrived reason. There could well be a rerun of the New York State Turbo fiasco. If Wisconsin places these trains in revenue service, they will just end up as "orphans" without much in the way of, if any, technical support needed to keep the tempermental prima dona's a warbling. Maybe they'll find a home on the Cascade service, or pro-rail North Carolina, with its routes that can benefit, i.e. schedule reductions such as have been realized in the Pacific Northwest, from Talgo's superior curve handling capabilities. When it is finally time, possibly with Illinois taking the lead, equipment suitable for the largely tangent Midwest corridors will be ordered.
Oh, and what did I say earlier in this topic about a "hell on wheels" business plan?
Posted by 20th Century (Member # 2196) on :
I never rode the Talgo. However from what I am reading the Cascades Talgo seems to be a nice service. But a 90 minute Chicago-Milwaukee could be best served by the Amfleet cars. I certainly agree with MetSox. The roofline looks ricidulous with the engines. It reminds of the "kiddieland" amusement park train rides. All you need is a giant engineer sitting on top between those streamlining wings or whatever.
Posted by ehbowen (Member # 4317) on :
I do believe the industrial designer Cesar Vergara described the effect as "Chihuahuas following a St. Bernard!"
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Chicago Tribune today reports "there's somethin' happnin' out there"
Brief passage:
Score one for Illinois, maybe.
Under siege by New Jersey's attempts to lure businesses from Illinois and bruised by the Chicago Bears' loss to the Green Bay Packers, Gov. Pat Quinn went on the offensive and reeled in a maker of high-speed passenger trains that had set up shop in Wisconsin, U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said Wednesday.
"The governor (of Illinois) just was able to attract Talgo, which is a train manufacturing company from Wisconsin, to come to Illinois to manufacture train sets, which is quite a coup," LaHood said in Washington.
Asked for details, federal and state officials hedged their answers while not quite retracting what LaHood said.
"There is no agreement, to our knowledge,'' said a U.S. Department of Transportation spokesman, speaking on condition of anonymity. "To the best of our knowledge, they are still working on it.''
Suffice to say, I'm hardly pleased by this development. While I should welcome that any industrial facility offering maybe 100 or so well-paying jobs is locating within an "Enterprise Zone" (be it assured they will to reap the inherent "tax breaks') of a state, my state, that is "really not all that recovered' from the Recession, such does not in itself make for a prudent expenditure of public funds.
Quite simply I will reiterate my position; there is no need for Talgo equipment within the Milwaukee-St Louis corridor, nor the other two within Illinois. Talgo equipment will have to be maintained by an outside contractor and will require an on-board technician to ride each set. This could well result in labor "unrest' amongst Amtrak Shop Craft employees.
While possibly there is a "curve or two' Galesburg-Quincy (never ridden it), the other routes are largely tangential. Bi-Level equipment maintained by Amtrak Shop Crafts at 14th St and Beech Grove will do quite fine for any existing, and even any proposed, Illinois service.
Now not for one moment do I forget that there are other regions about that are encouraging development of rail corridors and in which Talgo equipment could prove beneficial. I of course first think of Seattle-Portland where Talgo equipment has resulted in a 30min schedule reduction over previous conventional equipment service. I also envision North Carolina with its curvy routes and especially so should the oft-proposed service to Asheville materialize.
So while I hold there are potential markets about the country interested in establishing intercity rail service and where Talgo equipment could be beneficial, Illinois is not one of them. Further, Talgo is living up to its "hell on wheels' business model and should orders materialize such as from Washstate or Oregon, that is likely where they will pull up stakes and relocate to.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
I have ridden the Talgos in the northwest and really, really like them.......
That said, I have heard (but not seen confirmation) that should North Carolina look to procure brand new passenger train equipment, they would look into bilevel cars such as the California Cars or maybe those funky bifocal bilevel commuter cars that GO used in Toronto for years (and likely still does).
For now, the NCDOT is having a good run with their fleet of reconditioned 1960's Heritage Coaches which began their service lives on the Kansas City Southern...... our Piedmont's feature the biggest windows available on any single level Amtrak train!
Posted by Vincent206 (Member # 15447) on :
During the Christmas holidays I rode on one of the extra trainsets that run the holiday extras on the Cascades service. The set I rode consisted of 2 Amfleet coaches and a Horizon biz/cafe car that had been taken from the Hiawatha service (wall posters and seat-back literature all Milwaukee focused). Speaking as someone who rides frequently on the Talgos and has a chance to compare Talgos, Superliners, Cali cars and Amfleets, I can assure you that the vast majority of the Hiawatha riders are going to love the new Talgos when they arrive. The tilt technology may not be needed on the route and the process of acquiring the trains may not have been fully above board, but from the day those trains arrive, the riders will be in love with them.
Posted by sojourner (Member # 3134) on :
I love the refurbished Talgos. Including the bathrooms and doors between cars. They are like ACELA without the high prices; and IMO even more comfortable. Anyone who rides them in the NW will understand what public transportation is all about and will support funding for it.
I hear they now have Wi-Fi too.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Presumably by now, anyone here who will have occasion to do so, has reviewed July TRAINS.
In the lead News article, Bob Johnston has essentially declared that the Wisconsin Talgos are not going to see revenue service as Chil-Milw Hiawathas.
Lest they become monuments to waste, snd one can be sure the Walker administration would love to make them just that, I can only hope they will see revenue service somewhere - and hopefully where their Pendulum technology will result in a noticeable schedule improvement such as was realized on the Seattle-Portland Cascades.
Posted by Vincent206 (Member # 15447) on :
Here's a short video featuring the WI Talgo. Production quality is very poor, but you get to see something that very few WI residents will ever see--the interior of a Talgo train.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Agree; the production quality (appears to be raw video outtake) leaves much to be desired. It would be interesting to know what the Spaniard Talgo official, speaking English as a second language, had to say about the likelihood of those trains entering revenue service. Again as I noted, Bob Johnston of TRAINS reports their chance of doing so CHI-MKE is "zilch".
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Here is a blog that is maturely written and I believe represents new thought regarding the on-going "Scotty and Talgo" soap opera:
For more than a year, Talgo CEO Antonio Perez has held his tongue as detractors dumped on his company and its trains, until finally he could take no more. Perez cannot believe the State of Wisconsin has chosen to terminate two contracts it signed with Talgo nearly three years ago. His company has put almost three years of work into a project to build and maintain trains in a warehouse in Milwaukee’s 30th Street Corridor, the long-dormant industrial area Gov. Scott Walker has pledged to help revive with a new, $100 million dollar plan. Yet his administration will kill the only viable company now operating there, Talgo.
“What message does this send to other businesses?” Perez asks. “They should be careful of doing business here because Gov Walker does not keep his word. It’s like we’re talking about a Third World country, where people don’t have respect for their contracts.”
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
I wonder if the Talgo saga has, in fact, dissuaded other business ventures from considering locating in Milwaukee..... or elsewhere in Wisconsin?
I wonder also whether there is any way of gauging this minus political spin?
Posted by TwinStarRocket (Member # 2142) on :
It would be interesting to hear what Tommy Thompson has to say about this, since he is currently running for the US Senate.
If you look at the photos in the link, the Talgo engines don't look quite as ugly after they are painted.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
Agreed TwinStar........
The paint helps........ sort of like lipstick on a goose.
Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
Tommy Thompson is running for Senate? Ugh....
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman:
“What message does this send to other businesses?” Perez asks. “They should be careful of doing business here because Gov Walker does not keep his word. It’s like we’re talking about a Third World country, where people don’t have respect for their contracts.”
Given the normal nature adn enforcability of contracts in this country, I would regard statements as the above as being insulting. It makes me suspect that he did not have a contract that was on the up and up in the first place.
If making public blusters is the way Mr. Perez feels about it and all he can expect to be able to do about it, all I can say is, Don't let the door bang your butt on your way out.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
I would think Talgo's best interests would be served if they simply bought those sets from Wisconsin, as there does not appear to be a North American buyer at hand.
If those trains remain in the hands of Wisconsin, they will simply be trotted pout for a "show trial" as "monuments to waste".. Talgo will in the process become guilty by association, and could forget about any future business in North America.
If there are photo ops of the equipment being loaded aboard a vessel as deck cargo at Milwaukee (give the local longshoremen the work), at least Talgo would be making the best of a bad situation. This is not to say it is a case of faulty designed equipment (read like the Amtrak SDP-40F and E-60 locomotives of thirty years ago), but rather equipment ordered not suited for the intended route and changing political breezes.
As for them seeing revenue service in Spain; well the government is broke and by adjunct, so is RENFE.
Posted by Vincent206 (Member # 15447) on :
According to Citizen Dave, if everything had gone according to plan, the HSR line between Madison WI and Chicago would be open and running now.
quote:Had Tom Barrett won the election for governor in 2010, right now, June 2013, would have seen the opening of Madison's high-speed rail station, connecting us to Milwaukee and Chicago immediately and the Twin Cities eventually.
Citizen Dave is actually Dave Cieslewicz, former mayor of Madison WI and, I presume, a Democrat. The article is clearly a partisan hit-piece and there are some obvious inaccuracies or exaggerations in the article:
quote: They (the Talgo trains) are the most sophisticated in the world.
Has it really been 4 years since this story broke?
Posted by Vincent206 (Member # 15447) on :
The latest news in the Talgo vs. Scott Walker fiasco has broken. Yes, the Wisconsin Talgos will be moving soon to Beech Grove. It's costing $29,000 a month to store the trains in Milwaukee so, according to the spokesperson for Talgo:
quote:"The reason for the move is to mitigate Talgo's damages in light of the State of Wisconsin's breach of the purchase contract for the trains,"
Also, another interesting quote from the article:
quote:The company also said it expects its $65.9 million claim against the State of Wisconsin, which included costs of unanticipated long-term storage, to fall flat. This would allow Talgo to pursue the damages in court,
The end is nowhere in sight.
Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
Scott Walker brought that state back from the brink. He endured multiple death threats, and literally had thousands upon thousands of paid union thugs bused in to protest inside the state capital. He did exactly what he said he would do if elected. No surprises----he told everyone in advance, and he stuck to his guns under enormous pressure. The result is that Wisconsin is looking VERY good right now. I'm sorry they didn't get their choo-choo, but other priorities took its place.
Posted by Vincent206 (Member # 15447) on :
quote:Now that the Claims Board has unanimously thrown out the demand for payment, Talgo is free to sue in state court.
No surprise here.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
A review of the Reader Comments to the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel article linked by Mr. Vincent May 14, proved to be insightful and mature. This is especially the case with those made by reader JRWOakCreek (anyone wanna bet that's James Wrinn Editor TRAINS?).
However, those comments to the May 19 article also linked by Mr. Vincent are nothing more than the 'Scottylovers' and 'Scottyhaters' teeing off against one another.
Oh and finally, thanks to an intrepid railfan willing to stay awake all hours, here are the Talgo 'inmates' being transported from one 'facility' to another:
There is a report appearing in the Detroit News that a possible deal between MIDOT and Talgo has been challenged by an Illinois concern, Corridor Capital LLC, that believes the proposal was written in a manner so that there could only be one bidder - namely Talgo:
Lansing — State lawmakers are looking into claims that the Department of Transportation is mistakenly buying passenger rail cars that Wisconsin rejected as the result of a faulty bidding process.
The criticism, aired at a recent Senate Appropriations Committee hearing, came from former U.S. Rep. Joe Schwarz of Battle Creek and a competing firm that argues the state’s bid specifications were so narrow only one company could meet them.
At issue is a pending $58 million Michigan Department of Transportation deal to buy two sets of passenger cars built in Milwaukee by the Spanish firm Talgo and once headed for a now-defunct high-speed rail project in Wisconsin. The cars sit idle because Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker called off his predecessor’s railroad plan.
I would guess this Corridor Capital concern has in mind an opportunity to unload their fleet of ex-ATSF High Level cars.
Posted by bill613a (Member # 4264) on :
Has this Corridor Capital group tried to sell their ex-ATSF cars back to Amtrak to augment the long distance fleet?
Posted by CG96 (Member # 1408) on :
As illustrated by this editorial, and the comments at the page, the rejection of funding in Wisconsin still resonates: Walker's train gaffe continues to resonate Posted by CG96 (Member # 1408) on :
Mr. CG, allow me an off topic comment yet quite relevant to your Mark Twain signature quotation and for that matter your neck of the woods.
Last month, I had occasion to travel to Madison for a business dinner, but before that, I visited with the 20 year old daughter of neighbors. I figured, 'oh well, I'll break the law with her; surely she knows somewhere they don't look too closely at ID's'.
However on meeting up, she shared with me that so long as a college age person regardless of the 'magic number' is with someone who could pass for a parent, they could lawfully have a drink.
When we were sitting at an outdoor bar facing the Capitol and at which she was served without comment, some kid she knew stopped to say Hi; I simply said 'I'm Molly's grandfather' (I'm almost as old as her real maternal).
Point to this anecdote is simply that had I not has reason to be 'on the ground' in Madison with a college student, I would have never known of this local law, which I personally think is quite reasonable and appropriate.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
While nothing to do with the Talgos, 'Scottylovers' such as Mr. CG and Ms. McFarland will certainly enjoy (and just as much as the Scottylovers of the other stripe such as the 'Smith Brothers' will not) this front page piece in The Times that was reported by their Chicago Bureau chief - hardly some 'rip n' read' from a wire service:
CHICAGO — Prosecutors in Wisconsin assert that Gov. Scott Walker was part of an elaborate effort to illegally coordinate fund-raising and spending between his campaign and conservative groups during efforts to recall him and several state senators two years ago, according to court filings unsealed Thursday.
The allegations by five county district attorneys, released as part of a federal lawsuit over the investigation into Mr. Walker, suggest that some of the governor’s top campaign aides directed the political spending of the outside groups, most of them nonprofits, and in effect controlled some of them.
The documents made public on Thursday threatened to cloud the political prospects of Mr. Walker, who is seeking election to a second term this fall and is mentioned as a possible Republican presidential candidate in 2016. They provided a rare view of the inner workings of a far-flung network of conservative nonprofit groups that have come to play a decisive role in national and state elections, secretly moving hundreds of millions of dollars into campaigns by avoiding traditional political action committees, which typically face tougher disclosure requirements
Posted by Ocala Mike (Member # 4657) on :
Too soon or trivial to use the term "Walkergate?"
Posted by Mike Smith (Member # 447) on :
Oh come on, Ocala... Quit being so gullible. Whoops, missed Mr Norman, too!
Mike beat me to the punch. While I do not read the NY Times (because I feel they are an extremely biased, left-wing arm of the DNC and White House), I was going to point out that one of the comments I heard on the radio about this NY Times article yesterday is that I think it's not until the 13th paragraph (I could be wrong on the paragraph number---I'm winging it from memory) that the NY Times even bothers to mention that everything they are reporting is several months old and was already tossed out of court by two different judges. Two judges who pretty much said, "There is no case here, there is no crime, there is no evidence, there is no probable cause". Instead, we have activist prosecutors (which is a very, very dangerous thing to have) who will literally do anything to take down someone who did what was said couldn't be done. He took a solid blue state, and made it not so blue any more. Walker received numerous death threats to himself and his family, suspicious packages were sent to his house almost daily, his kids were harassed at school, his wife was followed---many things happened, and it was all done by (presumably) union goons. At the beginning of his tenure as Governor, the union bused in thousands upon thousands of paid, professional protestors. But he did not allow them to distract him from the work that he promised to do if elected. He took a state that was in very sorry conditions and turned it around so that they now have a surplus, and state taxes were lowered dramatically for everyone. What Walker did with Wisconsin is a model for what the GOP can do with the USA to fix our economy and get things rolling again. Walker proved that it CAN be done.
Posted by Ocala Mike (Member # 4657) on :
Not surprisingly, the Smith Bros. are going "all in" with Gov. Walker. We had a guy I worked with at the race track back in the 70's named Joe Stein who used to come in every day and tell everyone how he believed what was then a "two-bit burglary" would blow up in Nixon's face. Got so predictable, that we all gave him a nickname.
Haven't run into him in quite some time, but if I ever do, I will probably slip and call him by his nickname, "Joe Watergate."
This does not mean, however, that I want to be known in the future as "Wisconsin Mike!"
Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
I'm trying to make the connection to understand what you're saying. I might be wrong, but I THINK what you're saying is that even thought you don't want to be called "Wisconsin Mike" in the future, the premise behind it is that you believe that Walker will be impeached, or arrested, or legally punished in some way. Do I understand this correctly, or are you saying something else?
Posted by Mike Smith (Member # 447) on :
No Ocala, we are just trying to educate you by giving you news stories that refute the typical media bias.
Would you like more proof? I can furnish you with at least 5 more news stories about the fallacy of the media's attacks on Governor Walker.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Volks, what the 'Smith Brothers' have presented to Monica Davies', The Times Chicago Bureau Chief, REPORTING is OPINION.
In the interest of fairness and balance, here is Opinion from The Times' Editorial Board:
If the rules against coordination are lifted, wealthy donors will achieve their dream of donating unlimited millions directly to candidates. The Walker case shows how important it is for government at all levels — Congress, federal agencies and state officials — to put severe curbs on the ability of outside groups to meddle in politics with unlimited dollars
Posted by Mike Smith (Member # 447) on :
What was reported in the two links I gave you were facts. Walker did nothing wrong. How many more links do you need? Here are three. I can post more...
How about from a RECOGNIZED newssource, Mr. Smith
Posted by Mike Smith (Member # 447) on :
I posted recognized news sources. You did not.
Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
GBN: I think your definition of a recognized news source disappeared long ago. In the new media age, there are lots and lots of recognized news sources (and lots and lots of unrecognized as well). It takes internet experience, and it also helps if you are a news junkie as I am, to learn which is which. Just because it's not the New York Times, The Chicago Tribune, or the San Francisco Chronicle---that does not mean everything else is unrecognized. The old media giants of yesteryear are dying and/or are dead. Wasn't it Newsweek that sold for a dollar? And Time Magazine---are they even published any more, except online? "The People" have become fed up with the news sources of yesteryear, and their ad revenue and subscriber numbers reflect that. If it weren't for some fantastic internet news sources that we have today, we would never have known about the daily lies of the New York Times and others. And they DO lie---on a regular basis. This latest hit piece on Walker is nothing more than that---a hit piece. It is their attempt at cutting him off at the knees before he can gain any traction. The story about his alleged "crimes" were already rejected by at least two different judges who threw the cases out of court. Do you not believe this? It even says so in the NYT, but they waited until deep, deep into the article to mention that, oh by the way, this thing is several months old AND it was rejected from court. But besides that, we (the NYT) are indicting him anyway. That is why people don't trust or read those old rags any more. It's because they have an agenda, and journalism is dead in America as we once knew it.
How about this from a "recognized" news source (CNN):
Whoopsie. The CNN anchor let it slip that they are "doing everything" they can to advance Hillary's run for presidency. That's not journalism---not even close. You should start reading the alternate media in order to learn how dishonest and disrespectful the NYT is being to you. They are lying to your face on a daily basis, AND they're making you pay to receive those lies. That's why journalism is dead in the mainstream media. All it is any more is an arm of the DNC and White House. Investigative journalism is something that these people haven't practiced in years. However, on the internet, there are recognized sources for NEWS every day.
There are too many to list, but if you want a great daily summary, just glance at the Drudge Report once a day and look at the headlines. Then click on those headlines to read the stories. You'll get more for free there then you'll ever get in the NYT in its current, pathetic condition. They're just a bunch of biased liars these days---not many left who trust them.
Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
Here is some more journalist malpractice regarding this Scott Walker "news". The quotes below are all from "recognized" news sources (ABC News, CNN, CNN, PBS, C-SPAN, CBS---all in this order, below). These are quotes from them from Thursday and Friday:
DWYER: A potential Republican presidential candidate is accused of taking part in an illegal fund-raising scheme!
BOLDUAN: (b-roll noise) Prosecutors in Wisconsin say Governor Scott Walker took part in a criminal scheme!
KING: ...directly accusing Governor Scott Walker of being part of a criminal scheme!
IFILL: Prosecutors have accused Republican Governor Scott Walker of illegal fund-raising.
SLEN: Prosecutors have alleged that Governor Scott Walker was part of a wide ranging "criminal scheme."
ROSE: Prosecutors accuse him of playing a central role in illegal fundraising.
Every single one of them is LYING. He WAS accused of these things, but the case is so incredibly ridiculous and made up that the case was thrown out in two separate courts! They were considered "worthless" by the courts. For those with open minds, let this be a teachable moment. The left will, and does, do anything and everything to bring conservatives down. There is a direct connection between the DNC, the White House, and mainstream media outlets. Journalism does not exist any more, except for a few well-known websites who actually do investigative, unbiased reporting. I can't handle reading the NYT or similar because I know that most of what I'm reading is complete and utter BS. And this Walker story proves that.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
This discussion seems to have strayed quite a bit from Amtrak. How about moving it to the open discussion forum. Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
Greta Van Susteren (currently with Fox News, prior with CNN) is a well-known journalist and lawyer. Here is what she wrote on her Facebook page this morning about the poor "reporting" by the mainstream media of the Scott Walker issue, as well as the Hillary Clinton audiotape where she is heard laughing about a 12 year old rape victim. Read on: ___________ WORST REPORTING OF THE WEEK: about REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR SCOTT WALKER AND DEMOCRAT HILLARY CLINTON
The media / journalists have an important job -- to get the facts right and to put those facts in a fair context. Reporters need to stop listening to each other and just reading each other's work and then repeating it. When they do that, they risk just repeating others' incorrect reporting. That is unfair and that is bad. Journalists should do original reporting - go to primary sources and stop just listening to each other. Two good examples this week:
If they did original reporting, the would know that yes, the prosecutor in Wisconsin in a document accused Governor Scott Walker of a crime (that is common and routine for a prosecutor) BUT OBVIOUSLY THE PROSECUTOR DID NOT TAKE IT SERIOUSLY SINCE NEVER CHARGED HIM WITH A CRIME. That is a HUGE difference - accusing v. charging. If the prosecutor thought Walker committed a crime, he just had to fill out a paper and charge him. And if he thought Walker committed a crime, it was his job to charge him - but that did not happen. Second, a Federal Judge ruled later that the conduct the prosecutor objected to is not a crime, that the alleged conduct fits within a loophole of the campaign law. That ruling is now on appeal to the US Court of Appeals for the 7th Circuit but if it is upheld, it means that the prosecutor accused Governor Walker of innocent conduct (conduct that is not illegal.) If it is reversed, then Walker may have trouble but that is not where the facts stand now.
If they did original reporting, they would have read the court file in the Arkansas case (I did) and seen that the affidavit filed by then 27 year old lawyer Hillary Rodham was a routine application for a court ordered psychiatric evaluation of the complainant. It was not Clinton going after the accuser - but rather filing a routine application in her constitutional job to represent a client. Clinton said she had reports about the complainant and wanted the Court to pursue it further with an examination. That's routine. Second, if they did original reporting, they would have LISTENED to the tape and learned that Clinton's laughter (sarcastic I thought) was about polygraphs and not the complainant or the charge. Like with Governor Scott Walker, this is a big difference. The polygraph occurred when no doubt the client was claiming he was innocent to his lawyer Clinton. Clients do that...insist insist and insist innocence. He took polygraph and passed. He then later pleaded guilty and admitted his guilt ...to his lawyer Clinton and then in court at the plea.....hence the polygraph remark by Clinton.
Facts matter. I don't care whether someone supports Governor Walker or Secretary Clinton -- but at least we owe it to them (and to everyone) to do our best at getting the facts and not just repeating what we ourselves have read from others in the media. When you can go to the original or primary source, you should. __________
Well said, Greta...
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
quote:Originally posted by palmland: This discussion seems to have strayed quite a bit from Amtrak. How about moving it to the Open Discussion forum
Excellent point, Mr. Palmland.
I've tried to originate material over at Open Forum, but do not seem to get any responses (there's no read count here). Most recent; MS or Apple OS.
Possibly the Moderatrix may choose to act upon this matter.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
While I admit guilt in continuing discussion here to matters unrelated to the Talgo trains (but nevertheless related to the political environment giving rise to the non-use of the equipment), this OPINION piece appearing in Today's Times gives support as to why many would sooner ascribe to material within alternative media rather than traditional sources:
That may be why politicians and journalists are now neck and neck in a race to the bottom of public trust. According to a poll released by Gallup last week, fewer than a quarter of news consumers trust what they read, watch or click on, a historic low.
Rail unrelated, but an interesting read for all regardless of where they stand on the political spectrum.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
Can anyone think of any event that they were involved in or had first hand knowledge of that was also reported in the news media where the reported "facts" and events matched up with reality, and to what extend if they did at all. I cannot in my 69 years.
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
quote:Originally posted by George Harris: Can anyone think of any event that they were involved in or had first hand knowledge of that was also reported in the news media where the reported "facts" and events matched up with reality, and to what extend if they did at all. I cannot in my 69 years.
"Never let the truth get in the way of a good story" (allegedly Mark Twain)
A mainstream and well-respected women's magazine in the UK once did an article on my mother, who had had a serious accident and recovered fully (thankfully). I sat there during the interview and the gist of it went like this: Mother: "...had very little movement in my legs..." Reporter: "Let's say you had no movement"
Mother: "...I just hoped I'd get better one day..." Reporter: "<writes>had given up hope of ever walking again"
Maybe the same people write the NYT rail articles?
Posted by Mike Smith (Member # 447) on :
Being in the apartment business, I have never experienced an actual truthful report.
All journalists are taught to go for the emotional impact and ignore any details that would lessen the emotional impact.
Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
I learned the media lesson at a young age. When I was a fire department Explorer (a division of the Boy Scouts), I would go to scenes of accidents, large fires, and other emergencies. I would remember being excited to go home and watch the TV news to see if I made it on TV. However, when the news story came on, it's as if they were at a completely different incident than I was. I would sit there with my mouth open, and i would tell my parents, "That is NOT what happened----this guy is lying!". And it's been that way ever since. The media often get stories wrong, and I think it's on purpose.
Posted by CG96 (Member # 1408) on :
More news developments from Wisconsin -- A member of All Aboard Wisconsin discusses a recent passenger train excursion through Madison, over the route of the ex-MILW "Sioux" and "Varsity," with a Wisconsin Public TV reporter: Group seeks passenger rail through Madison to Chicago