I took a train from New York to Portsmouth, OH in 1978-79 and I can't remember its name. The train arrived at Portsmouth very early in the morning. It was foggy. I hitchhiked from Portsmouth to Columbus, OH where I was attending college. I'm pretty sure I connected in Washington. Any ideas what train it was? It was a bumpy ride, I remember that. The conductor was a real old-timer.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Likely that was the Amtrak Hilltopper that ran on a Daylight schedule Wash to Cincinnati via the RF&P to Richmond SAL to Peteersburg, thence Norfolk & Western to Portsmouth.
Service was restored to the N&W in response to a "political" initiative during 1974; it was "rationalized" during 1977 with the daylight schedule originating in Wash rather than Norfolk.
The Adios drumhead went up with the 1979 "Carter Cuts".
Posted by dns8560 (Member # 15184) on :
It was definitely an overnight train. I'm pretty sure it went through Cumberland, MD, come to think of it. Thanks for the Hilltopper info.
Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :
GBN -- didn't the Hilltopper run only from Huntington, WV to WAS via southern West Virginia? I think the train DNS is talking about might have been the Shenandoah -- that was an overnight train, but I don't remember it ever stopping in Portsmouth.
Unless he means the Cardinal, which stops at South Portsmouth, KY?
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
OK, I'll concede that I did not properly research my timetable collection prior to posting. I will concur with Mr. Kimmel that if Mr. Sommer passed through Cumberland on an overnight schedule, then the only Amtrak-era train such could be was the Shenandoah.
Shenandoah had assigned likely the most unique car Amtrak ever rostered - and that was the Amsnooze.
Mr. Resor has previously reported riding in such car, in which four Roomettes quite similar in configuration to those in the Superliners were installed into a 60 seat AmCoach, so I certainly should defer to him for any impressions of that ride.
Posted by dns8560 (Member # 15184) on :
Wikipedia - Amtrak's Shenandoah served the National Limited B&O route from Washington to Cincinnati via Cumberland, Maryland, and Parkersburg, West Virginia, from October 31, 1976 to September 30, 1981. The westbound Shenandoah stopped at Chillicothe, OH, approximately 40 miles due south of Columbus, at 7:53 AM. Connections to and from Chicago could be made at Cinncinati. The train offered Economy Sleeper Service, as noted above. Looking back, I remember that Amsnooze car! Funny how memory retains some details and dilutes others. It was Chillicothe, not Portsmouth, or South Portsmouth. Also, according to Wikipedia, The Hilltopper ran from Boston to Catlettsburg, KY via Washington and Roanoke. "The 1,674 mi (2,694 km) route made 37 stops in traversing eleven states and the District of Columbia."
GBN - Sommer, not Somer
Posted by dns8560 (Member # 15184) on :
Why is The Cardinal Amtrak's unhealthiest train?
Posted by dmwnc1959 (Member # 2803) on :
I have seen pictures of passenger rail service her in Clarksburg, WV. Was it the Shenandoah?
Posted by dns8560 (Member # 15184) on :
According to my October 1979 timetable, The Shenandoah stopped at Clarksburg, WV. The eastbound train 32 stopped at 2:43 am. The westbound train 33 stopped at 2:57 am. The station was located at 400 Baltimore Avenue.
Posted by dmwnc1959 (Member # 2803) on :
Thanks. The station is still there although I think now it is used as an office for the CSX railroads? It is in a part of town called Glen Elk. All I see now are empty coal trains parked there.
Posted by dmwnc1959 (Member # 2803) on :
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
quote:Originally posted by dns8560: Why is The Cardinal Amtrak's unhealthiest train?
The term comes from Latin and means "the thing itself speaks" but is more often translated "the thing speaks for itself."
For those of us who dont speak in terms of endless columns of statistics, what does page 26 boil down to, in a nutshell.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
During July '09, The Cardinal generated the least revenue of any of the Long Distance trains. Only the Sunset Limited carried fewer passengers.
Posted by dmwnc1959 (Member # 2803) on :
I now this is probably a stupid question but does that 'unhealthiest' statistic also take into consideration, or have anything to do with the Cardinal not being a daily train, and maybe runs a much shorter route and/or through lesser populated areas than some of the longer long distance trains? Would the Cardinal carry as many as the Capital Ltd if she was a daily train?
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Likely it does, Mr. DMW. However, The Cardinal is tri-weekly and definitely offers fewer on board amenities than does either the Lake Shore or Capitol Limited. While the decision to 'downgrade' The Cardinal regarding amenities by removal of its Superliner consist has been questioned both here and at other forums, its patronage has reportedly been enhanced with its offering of a through train to NEC points. As I've noted elsewhere here, publicly funded passenger service is about moving people and not about scenic excursions.
The Carter Cuts got rid of The Hilltopper and The Shenandoah through that region, but I guess the pull of Sen Byrd (D-WV) kept "his train" around.
Posted by dmwnc1959 (Member # 2803) on :
I wonder how many people would actually take long distance routes like the Empire Builder, Coast Starlight, SW Chief, and California Zephyr if it weren't for the 'scenic' aspect of it. If it were only just about moving people? I am sure a greater percentage of these riderships and profits are generated soley by tourism?
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
I agree with your immediate thought Mr. DMW. "If ya gotta run 'em", you may as well make 'em adequately attractive, i.e. assigning a Dome car to The Adirondack that otherwise was not needed elsewhere, and can be added or removed from the consist without any additional cost (as is the case with car on the head behind the engine; not the case if the car had to be drilled into the consist), yet on the other hand refraining from acquiring two like cars to offer Daily year round service, so that people will show up to ride.
However, if with the case of the Zephyr, Salt Lake City was the largest intermediate point market rather than Denver, I would expect Amtrak to schedule the train to serve SLC at the most attractive hours to generate patronage and if Denver was served at 0Dark30 and the Rockies X'd same, "sorry 'bout that".
Finally, to return to the topic's subject, The Cardinal, allow me to reiterate that if the reported increased patronage arising from making such a through train to NEC points is factual, Amtrak was wise to scrap the 'scenic excursion' business model.
Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :
David -- refresh my memory, please -- what was the "Amsnooze" car? What I think you mean was a coach car which contained maybe 1 "economy sleeper" compartment in the mididle of the car, which was not sold as revenue space then -- in fact, I don't believe there was even much bedding in the room. This was immediately before the Superliners were launched, I think. I rode the Shenandoah one year westbound from WAS, and it had to back up from Keyser, WV to Cumberland due to a track washout, and most passengers were then bussed to Cincinnati. On that trip, I did not wish to be bussed, so I stayed in the economy sleeper overnight in what I think you mean by the "Amsnooze" car, after the train was parked in Cumberland, and the crew had left for the night -- one of the crew told me it was OK for me to sleep there. The next morning, the consist was sent back to WAS as the "Blue Ridge," I believe, and there was a new crew -- the conductor found me in that room in the AM; I told him that someone the previous night told me I could stay there if I wanted, and he didn't have any problem with that.
Was this the "Amsnooze?"
Posted by dmwnc1959 (Member # 2803) on :
It's a shame that the northcentral parts of WV lost service. Don't suspect Amtrak will ever come this way again. Just seems isolated to have service 2 hrs either side of me. Running service through here on a schedule like the Cardinal would at least be something, but at least we have a daily bus that goes from here to Pittsburgh to access the 'real world'. Wish they could split off a consist at Cumberland on the Capital Ltd (like they do with the EB to Portland) and run through here. That would be cool. I wonder if WV could throw in some state funding to get service back up here? I think that would kill our airport here in Clarksburg though. It runs daiy service from here to DC via Morgantown, and is quite expensive to fly. Rail would be stiff competition.
Posted by dns8560 (Member # 15184) on :
As I recall, the "AmSnooze" coach was a prototype for what would become the Viewliner sleeper. It had four compartments in what otherwise was a normal coach. That's all I remember about it. The compartments were listed as revenue space in the timetable as economy sleeper service.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
quote:Originally posted by dmwnc1959: It's a shame that the northcentral parts of WV lost service. Don't suspect Amtrak will ever come this way again.
Can't happen. Much of the ex-B&O main line if used is now gone.
Posted by dmwnc1959 (Member # 2803) on :
quote:Originally posted by George Harris:
quote:Originally posted by dmwnc1959: It's a shame that the northcentral parts of WV lost service. Don't suspect Amtrak will ever come this way again.
Can't happen. Much of the ex-B&O main line if used is now gone.
Funny you mentioned this, as between Clarksburg and Parkersburg there is a very extensive walking and bike trail down old track lines and tunnels. I assume this is it, using the old B&O mainline?
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
One note regarding Portsmouth, OH; a city on the former Norfolk & Western mainline -
Portsmouth, OH has never been served directly by Amtrak. The Cardinal (formerly called the James Whitcomb Riley by Amtrak) calls across the river at an Amshack known as South Portsmouth, KY on the former C&O.
During the brief period Amtrak operated the Mountaineer as a Chicago - Norfolk train, it was combined with the JWR on the C&O route as far as Catlettsburg, KY (previous location of the Ashland, KY area Amshack).
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
quote:Originally posted by dmwnc1959:
quote:Originally posted by George Harris:
quote:Originally posted by dmwnc1959: It's a shame that the northcentral parts of WV lost service. Don't suspect Amtrak will ever come this way again.
Can't happen. Much of the ex-B&O main line if used is now gone.
Funny you mentioned this, as between Clarksburg and Parkersburg there is a very extensive walking and bike trail down old track lines and tunnels. I assume this is it, using the old B&O mainline?
Yes
Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :
David S -- yes I believe that was an "Amsnooze" car I was in -- it was a prototype for the Viewliner sleeper, not the Superliners, as I implied in my earlier post
David P -- funny you should mention the "Mountaineer." I'm having a loss of memory now, as I remember both the "Mountaineer" and the "Hilltopper" -- if I recall, didn't the "Mountaineer" start in HUN and go through southern WV, through Williamson & Bluefield? And wasn't the "Hilltopper" the one which went through northern WV, from Cumberland through Keyser and Morgantown, then into Athens and Chilicothe, OH, to connect with the Cardinal in CIN?
And did the "Mountaineer" go through to WAS, or did that connect up with the Cardinal route at some point further east than southern WV?
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
The Norfolk-Cincinnati "Mountaineer" was the first Amtrak service over the N&W that started during April 1974. This was an overnight schedule, roundly emulating that of the N&W "Pocohantas", with Sleepers and Dining service.
The Wash-Cinci "Hilltopper' was routed Wash-RF&P-Rich-SAL-Petersburg-N&W-Cinci and succeeded the Mountaineer during April 1977. This was a Daylight schedule with Coaches and Snack Bar.
Hilltopper was a victim of the 1979 "Carter Cuts".
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
Mr. Norman,
I'm at work (stealing a few moments from my employer) and don't have access to my timetables or Official Guides from the 1970's -
Having laid out my disclaimer, I seem to recall having read an article in Trains......roughly fall of 1974 or early 1975...... where the writer was travelling on a USA Railpass. In the article he spoke of riding the Mountaineer but mentions the switching in the night where they disconnected it from the James Whitcomb Riley (now the Cardinal).
It seems like this was done at either the Catlettsburg, KY station or possibly even at the junction between Catlettsburg and Huntington where the former N&W crossed the C&O.
Given the timing of the article, I'd say that he was likely taking this trip during the early summer of 1974.
I'll not be home until 9:30pm tonight but will try to look that up tomorrow.
Oh......and a sidebar - The articles you mailed to me did arrive in a timely fashion and I have enjoyed reading them. I wanted to reread them another time before bringing what I've learned to this forum. I'm not ready for the test yet!
Posted by train lady (Member # 3920) on :
Is the amsnooze the same as the slumber coach? We always took one of those to Chicago. Meals were not included as with 1 st class but you did have a private toilet and sink like the viewliner. The singles were great but the double ones were totally impossible size wise.Also the car was in 2 layers,some rooms on the \lower level and some on the upper. Does thing ring a bell with any one? The price was a mere pittance.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Ms. Train Lady, there is confusion between two cars. You immediately addressed the Slumbercoach, which was never made part of the Heritage Fleet. The Amsnooze is an unofficial name for two Amfleet-I's in which four Roomettes configured as those in Superliners were installed. They were marketed as Economy Rooms.
Posted by train lady (Member # 3920) on :
thanks for the info. That clears things up for me.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
Some answers, perhaps, from the January 1977 Official Railway Guide -
The original poster talks about changing in Washington and an early morning arrival into Portsmouth. This is consistant with the schedule of the train known now as the Cardinal at that time. He could have disembarked at South Portsmouth, KY which is just across the river from Portsmouth, OH and which was indicated in parenthesis following 'South Portsmouth' in the timetable.
That train, however, did not go through Cumberland, MD.
The Shenandoah operated through Cumberland on the former B&O main. It stopped in Athens, OH and Chillicothe, OH which were both nearer to Columbus than Portsmouth. By 1979 it was on an overnight schedule from Washington and would have reached those cities early in the morning.
When I rode the Shenandoah in August 1981, it was a 2 car affair.... one amcafe car and one coach with the Amsnooze capsules in the back...not much to write home about.
The Mountaineer, at that time, was a Chicago-Norfolk service which was combined with the James Whitcomb Riley (now Cardinal) as far as Catlettsburg, KY. The two trains separated there in the wee hours and the Mountaineer entered N&W right of way shortly after crossing the river into West Virginia for the remainder of it's trip to Norfolk.
These things are similar (but not exactly as) what I thought I'd remembered. I do enjoy having some old Official Guides around.
Posted by royaltrain (Member # 622) on :
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: Ms. Train Lady, there is confusion between two cars. You immediately addressed the Slumbercoach, which was never made part of the Heritage Fleet.
I think, Mr. Norman, you may have forgotten that Amtrak operated slumbercoaches on the Lake Shore Ltd. during the period that it ran into Grand Central. I remember walking through them when I was in a standard 10/6 sleeper. Although meals were included in my fare, they were not if you purchased a slumbercoach.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
I stand corrected, Mr. Royal.
Reviewing a 1990 Timetable (the Heritage Fleet project was complete as of 1982), I find that the Lake Shore did offer Slumbercoach service.
Posted by rresor (Member # 128) on :
All this talk about various West VA trains sure brings back memories. I rode the Shenandoah, the Cardinal, and the Hilltopper several times during the 1970s. Herewith a summary:
The Cardinal of 1974 or so carried a dome, at least one sleeper, a lounge, and a full diner out of Chicago. The train split at Charlottesville, with dome and lounge and some coaches going to NPN and the rest of the train to Washington.
When the "Mountaineer" was added, it also had a diner and a dome. The combined train out of Chicago looked pretty impressive. The split was made at the C&O yard in Russell, KY, which was not a passenger stop, at about 11 at night. The Mountaineer then ran via N&W to Norfolk.
Amtrak built a new station at Cattletsburg, KY, outside Ashland, and then turned the Mountaineer into a day train running, as Mr. Norman has noted, via Richmond and Petersburg, thence over a restored connection to the N&W and west to Catlettsburg. I rode it once, from Lynchburg to Washington.
The Shenandoah was an overnight WAS - CIN train via the former B&O. Because service standards estabished by the ICC's Rail Services Planning Office required that there be sleeping accommodations, Amtrak built two "Ampad" rooms at the end of each of two Amcoaches (only two, not four). They looked just like the Superliner economy rooms, in retrospect (I traveled in one in 1979). The train was two cars: the Amfleet with the Ampads, and an Amcafe. Later, Amtrak did replace the Ampads with a 10-6 HEP sleeper during the last few months of the train's operation.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
rresor - do you remember at what point the Newport News section of the Cardinal was dropped? It was replaced with the bus connection from CHV to Richmond but I don't recall when.
Posted by dns8560 (Member # 15184) on :
As I recall, slumbercoaches were available on The Lake Shore, The Broadway, The Florida Silver Service trains, and The Montrealer. Miss those cars!
Posted by ehbowen (Member # 4317) on :
They were also available on the Crescent; I took one from New Orleans to Washington DC while in the Navy in June 1984.
Posted by train lady (Member # 3920) on :
the Cardinal had them too.
Posted by rresor (Member # 128) on :
The NPN section of the Cardinal morphed into a New York to NPN train sometime around 1978, I think. The Richmond -- Charlottesville segment became a bus, and then was dropped altogether.
As for Slumbercoaches, my recollection is that they ran on the Lake Shore, the Broadway, the Cardinal, the Montrealer, the Crescent, and on at least one of the Florida trains (don't recall which, but I think it was the Meteor). I rode in slumbercoaches on all of those trains at one time or another.
Posted by rresor (Member # 128) on :
Just checked Wikipedia, and the NPN section of the James Whitcomb Riley was discontinued in summer 1976. Makes sense -- my period of riding those trains (Broadway, Cardinal, Lake Shore, Shenandoah) was when I was in college/grad school in Chicago and my parents were living in Washington (1971 -- 76).
By the way, Seaboard Coast Line and predecessors never ran slumbercoaches. They leased B&O 16-4 duplex roomette cars in the late 1960s and sold the space as "budget room coaches". Passengers in these cars ate in the coach diner and did not have access to the Pullman lounge.
