From an article to be published in Tomorrow's Times, it would appear that additional security measures will be imposed as a result of the "close shave" yesterday at KDTW:
Although transportation officials had not announced new security measures yet, Air Canada said the Transportation Security Agency would make significant changes to the way passengers are able to move about on aircraft. During the final hour of flight, customers will have to remain seated, will not be allowed access to carry-on baggage and cannot have personal belongings or other items on their laps, according to a notice on Air Canada’s Web site.
In effect, that means passengers on flights of about 90 minutes or less will not be able to get out of their seats, since they are not allowed to move about while an airplane is climbing to its cruising altitude.
Air Canada also told its United States bound customers that they would be limited to a single carry-on item and that they would be subjected to personal and baggage searches at security check points and in the gate area. It said this would result in significant delays, canceled flights and missed connections. Air Canada said it would waive the baggage fee for the first checked bag as a result of the new policy.
While the measures noted in the brief passage are those being imposed by a foreign flagged carrier, it is a distinct possibility that they will be imposed by Homeland Security having jurisdiction over any flight within the US.
The effect of such, should they become Homeland Security directives, will mean that airline passengers on flights in duration anywhere within the Corridor can start considering anytime while on the aircraft as "dead" time. For flights say NY-Chicago, there will be as good as just a few minutes to read or even play with your electronic toys.
I would think that for travel within the Corridor, it would be fair game for Amtrak to include within their advertising that there can be, say, three hours of uninterrupted productive time available to a business traveler. such a campaign I do not think is 'going negative against the other guys" it is simply what appears will soon be a statement of fact.
Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
Well that's a bummer if enacted. On Virgin America flights from SFO to Las Vegas (less than 90 minutes), that would mean no use of the free on-board WiFi. That's half the fun---whipping my laptop out and playing around online.
How are the ladies going to "hold it" for that long? My experience has taught me that they go about every 2 minutes!!
Posted by dns8560 (Member # 15184) on :
Last summer I took a flight from Orlando to Philadelphia on a 757. I was assigned a middle seat between two very large men. I had a panic attack. My breathing quickened. I felt dizzy. The man to my left asked me if I was okay. I told him no. I got up and stood by the lavatories for the duration of the flight. With these new rules in effect I would have been beside myself. Now when I book flights, I always pick aircraft with two-abreast seating. Can't take the middle seat. Flying isn't what it used to be.
Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
Wow, panic attack on a plane---not good! There's really nowhere to go when you're up at 35,000 feet. I was flying home from Vegas last July, and for those who have departed Vegas in the summer, the heat causes some low-level turbulence for westbound departures between roughly 5,000 and 15,000 feet. Well, this lady across the aisle from me began to panic, and she started to unbuckle her seat belt to get up and "leave" the plane. I tried to calm her down and tell her that I fly this route all the time, and it's perfectly normal and no big deal. She didn't buy it---I felt sorry for her, but there was really nothing I could do. I'm glad I'm not a nervous flyer....I actually enjoy the bumps and dips.
Regarding the new in-flight rules, I've heard all sorts of variations on the story today. Some say that this "one hour rule" would only be on international flights coming INTO the United States and not for domestic travel. But I heard just the opposite, too. So who knows! I guess we'll find out soon enough.
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
According to a story in today's New York Times, the one hour rule will be in force for international flights coming in to the U.S., but it is not yet clear what the rule will be for domestic flights:
I wonder what the fallout of this event will mean for Amtrak. Combined with the weather-inspired mess air travel has become this holiday season, perhaps it will mean more crowded trains.
I hope TSA doesn't decide to make life miserable for Amtrak passengers just so they don't feel left out in this world of increased security theater.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
It would appear that the new in-flight rules that apparently will be imposed by TSA wherein no passenger will leave their seat during the final hour of flight as well as nothing in a passenger's lap means that the entire flight time for any flight within the NECorridor will now become non-productive "dead" time. Apparently a passenger will be expected to sit in "limbo" just as much the same as one does in an examination room after hearing the words "the Doctor will be with you shortly'. Even flights such as NY-Chicago will largely be comprised of 'dead' time.
While I guess such will be a "wait and see', it would appear that one's electronic playthings will have to be stowed in carry on baggage as they cannot be on your lap during that "hour'. But even if my nine flights during 2009 means I'm not part of the "refuse to fly' cadre around here, it hardly makes me a "frequent flyer' and accordingly I should defer to our latter group here for actual in-flight practices.
But I do believe Amtrak has a marketing opportunity here that could be included in advertising without negatively "knocking' the other guys. Ads should simply point out that travel on the, say, Acela represents three hours of productive time...."Acela doesn't take time...it gives time!!!". I'm sure Don Draper could improve on that one.
Posted by David (Member # 3) on :
It appears the New York Times is confused about Air Canada's baggage policy. "Air Canada said it would waive the baggage fee for the first checked bag as a result of the new policy." On flights from Canada to the US Air Canada carries free checked baggage ranging from one to three pieces, depending on one's class of travel or frequent flyer status. It has also been noted by Air Canada that the checking of what would normally be carry-on luggage will not incur a charge. Other Canadian carriers (Westjet and Air Transat) have indicated that these new rules are a requirement of the U.S. authorities.
You have to laugh at the "remain in your seat without access to carry-on luggage for one hour before landing" rule. I guess the US government assumes that no terrorist would ever do anything outrageous 61 or more minutes before landing. Stringent security measures at the airport make sense, but this rule is a joke.
I wonder what rules will be put in place if a terrorist act is committed on or to a passenger train?
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
I'm reminded of a "train v. plane' ad pitch that occurred during the later 60's by Seaboard Coast Line. As some here know, SCL continued to aggressively market their trains to the same extent as did predecessors SAL and ACL (SCL gave serious thought to staying out of Amtrak). It also was an era before mandatory screening of passengers prior to boarding was instituted (that occurred during 1973), and it was also an era in which flight crews carried approach plates to MUHA - Havana Jose Marti Airport as they were "needed" on too many an occasion.
This prompted SCL to engage in a bit of "below the belt' advertising. They ran ads in their usual Northeast outlets such as The Times proclaiming "If you would like to go to Florida, without a stopover in Havana, call us'.
Saw such with my own two eyes; I think that was below the belt and if as I suggest, Amtrak capitalizes on the possible complete loss of in-flight productive time that could occur on NEC flights, such would be unnecessary and I would hope does not come to pass.
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
That reminds me of E.M. Frimbo's fanciful advertising slogan for the railroads: "Go Through the Mountains, Not Into Them."
Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
I have a friend in Toronto right now trying to fly home to SFO. The security line is 3 hours long. They are doing pat-down searches on everyone, looking inside kid's diapers, etc.....What a mess.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
At this time, it appears that the "draconian" in-flight security measures will apply only to International (as distinct from overseas) flights. Here is an NBC News clip regarding such:
If I had reason to travel overseas (and I don't), I would think that the now disabled "flight-tracker" entertainment feature would have been "fun". I must wonder if United's Channel 9 air traffic communications monitoring will be a thing of the past. Since I like to think I know "a little something" about navigation, that was always fun on past United flights.
Will such measures apply to domestic flights anytime soon? Tune in tomorrow for that one.
Posted by HillsideStation (Member # 6386) on :
Wouldn't this topic be better (best) discussed on an airline forum?
Best regards, Rodger...a retired airline employee who travels Amtrak
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Rodger, if the additional security measures, and especially if the in-flight passenger activity restrictions are imposed on domestic flights, air travel will become considerably less attractive for short business trips - especially now that employers issue electronic playthings to their employees and can rightly expect they will now use travel time to further productivity.
In the markets where Amtrak can offer frequencies that meet the business traveler's requirements, it would appear that they would be well advised to market their services with a pitch to the effect I suggested earlier "Trains don't take time...they give it".
but again I defer to Don Draper on that one.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
quote:Originally posted by smitty195: I have a friend in Toronto right now trying to fly home to SFO. The security line is 3 hours long. They are doing pat-down searches on everyone, looking inside kid's diapers, etc.....What a mess.
Think your source is giving you the straight poop?
hee, hee
Posted by sbalax (Member # 2801) on :
ROTFLMAO!!
I'll let you know how my transit of security at BNA goes this afternoon. I have a big loaf of Czech holiday bread in my bag but I think I'll try checking it. The density and shape might trigger an alarm or two.
I always get the full pat down (artificial hip) and refer to it as the "complimentary TSA massage".
Frank in clear, sunny, but still cold BNA.
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
I'll be flying from Chicago to Rochester NY (by way of Philly) in a couple of weeks and will report on any changes in TSA theater since my last airline flight a year or so ago.
I do get the full TSA Massage, however, because of a stainless steel left knee and a titanium cage in my lumbar spine. (Not sure the titanium triggers the metal detector, though.)
On second thought, GBN, maybe that old railroad ad regarding Cuba wasn't quite so over the top. In those days the gentlemen commandeering airplanes for a free joyride to Havana were not regarded as terrorists threatening the lives of passengers, just criminals trying to escape justice. Probably at the time most people just chuckled at the cheekiness of the ad. Today, of course, it would be in shockingly bad taste and probably a financial disaster as well.
Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
LOL!!! Too funny.....
(PS: I've got the titanium rods/screws/cages in my lumbar spine, and no beeping for me. "I beeped!! I beeped!! Oh my God, I beeped!!!!" -- Mel Brooks in High Anxiety).
Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
Just a quick and funny story that happened to me on Thursday afternoon at LAS (McCarran). I purchased a neat piece of artwork in Vegas and was bringing it home with me. I had to carry it on because it was too fragile to check. So anyway, I get to the TSA line and start putting my stuff into the plastic containers. One of the TSA gals there sees the art and really likes it. She called over a few of her co-workers to view it also, and one of them asked me where I was heading to? I said "Heading home to SFO". She then said to me, "What is SFO---I've never heard of it". I said, "SFO---San Francisco??". Then she said, "Oh okay, I have never heard it called that before".
I walked away thinking "WOW!!!".........
Posted by Dakguy201 (Member # 10360) on :
Smitty, the irony is that these are the people who look at each passenger's ticket and compare it to their ID. You would think that over time they would come to know the identifiers for hundreds of airports.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
While likely prepared prior to the closest shave in air travel security involving a US flagged aircraft in the past eight years, this article appears virtually "the day after' in The Times' Tuesday Business Travel section. The only negative I find is the photo appearing in the print edition showing an SW-1000 handling a cut of Amfleets at Wash Union Station and such is captioned as a train. But oh well, I'm sure the freelance photographer from whom The Times obtained such is not familiar with the term "train" as defined by the Book of Rules;
There are also signs that passengers are increasingly embracing trains. The number of Amtrak riders has increased steadily since 2001, surpassing 28 million in 2008, though a dip is expected this year because of the recession.
Amtrak estimates it carried 63 percent of travelers flying or taking the train between New York and Washington in 2008 — an increase from 37 percent before the Acela service began in 2000. Amtrak’s market share between New York and Boston was 49 percent last year, compared with 20 percent before Acela.
Amtrak hopes to push those numbers even higher, Mr. Lim said. The railroad plans to introduce free Wi-Fi service on all Acela trains in the second quarter of 2010, then add Northeast regional trains later in the year.
The ability to work on the train is one of the reasons Brian Silengo says he rides Amtrak for his weekly trips to New York from Washington. He uses a cellular wireless card to get Internet access, but as a sales executive for an interactive marketing agency, he mostly values the Acela trains’ reliability.
“They’re very good at getting you where you need to be on time,” he said
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
Our four hour "flight" from Emeryville to Fresno over Christmas: Dec. 23 down. We had one large and two small rolling suitcases, one computer rolling suitcase, two cloth bags and one paper bag (my wife likes to cover all contingencies): No checked luggage, no quibbles about the massive carry-ons, no seat belts, no screening, and oh by the way, 10 minutes off the schedule at worst with two intermediate stops having over 100 people on (Emeryville and Stockton) and one with over 100 people off and 100 people on (Fresno) Basically a sold out five car bi-level train). Our "flight" coming back, Dec 28, same load of stuff, not quite as full a train, and exactly on time all the way. According to the agent at Fresno,(Old Santa Fe station now in beautiful condition, with three active ticket windows yesterday! ) Sunday was all trains jam packed with big loads off and on in both directions.
Yes, it can be done where distances are reasonble and trains are reliable and reasonably fast. BNSF seems to take real pride in making the train run well.
On the way back just before Martinez where the trains switch from BNSF to UP, we stopped and the announcement was made, "we move from BNSF tracks to UP tracks at this location and we must wait for UP to move a freight out of the way." Actual delay was no more than about 5 minutes, and beyond Martinez, the train was obviously makeing the best of the 43 mph (yes that is 43) on the multitudinous curves along the shoreline.
Posted by dns8560 (Member # 15184) on :
They might as well start installing MRI's at the security checkpoints.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Mr. Harris, shall I give your Mrs. a lesson or two in how to travel under my "if you can't CARRY it, as distinct from wheel it, don't bring it' doctrine?
I for one do not own any wheeled luggage, and for my four trips this year using air travel - longest one of which was four nights away, my over the shoulder (and under the seat) flight bag sufficed quite well.
However, I should acknowledge that you stated one of your bags was solely for your computer gear; by contrast, the only electronic plaything I carry on trips is a cell phone (haven't used it since November 12 when I made a one minute hands free call to tell a friend I was about ten minutes late owing to unexpected road construction); I'm not such an addict that I need a fix before getting to a hotel and it seems that any hotel at which I stay has either a lobby computer or a Business Center.
Posted by train lady (Member # 3920) on :
Gil, you must take under consideration that we women often need more "necessary" items than you men do. And then there is the case of if you have less space you take less. Mr. Harris I know exactly how your wife feels. .I am always prepared for any contingency(real or imaginary)when traveling
Posted by rresor (Member # 128) on :
To return to the subject of airport security: I have an implanted defibrillator, which will *always* trigger the metal detectors, so I routinely get a pat-down.
Once when I was waiting for my pat-down, a uniformed pilot (complete with large square bag holding charts and manuals) was being hand-wanded by a TSA employee. Before turning on the wand, the TSAer asked, "Do you have a pacemaker or defibrillator?" What was amusing about that question is that people like me can't get pilots' licenses (for obvious reasons), so asking a pilot, in uniform, if he has a pacemaker or defibrillator is at least as dumb as not knowing what "SFO" means.
The country's in the very best of hands...
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
quote:Originally posted by rresor: To return to the subject of airport security: I have an implanted defibrillator, which will *always* trigger the metal detectors, so I routinely get a pat-down.
Once when I was waiting for my pat-down, a uniformed pilot (complete with large square bag holding charts and manuals) was being hand-wanded by a TSA employee. Before turning on the wand, the TSAer asked, "Do you have a pacemaker or defibrillator?" What was amusing about that question is that people like me can't get pilots' licenses (for obvious reasons), so asking a pilot, in uniform, if he has a pacemaker or defibrillator is at least as dumb as not knowing what "SFO" means.
The country's in the very best of hands...
Why wand a pilot at all? What is going to do? Hijack himself? Did it ever occur to these dolts that the pilot can take the plane wherever he wants it to go?
Thanks to metal in leg and wife's metal in knees and back, we know that we are going to get the full treatment every time we fly. Let's see: We ahve hear a couple of plus 60 year old US born college educated professionals. They must be terrorists!!!!!
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
When on the road alone I have managed to shrink down to one small 'over the shoulder' bag and a separate tote for my 'netbook'.......a small computer which, when encased, is no larger than a family bible. This arrangement has proven sufficient for up to 6 days.
Admittedly it could be a different scenario if I were 'on business' and needed professional attire.
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
This thread reminds me of the wonderful Jack Reacher thriller novels by Lee Child.
Reacher (in case you haven't had the good fortune to read those thrillers) is a roaming knight-errant Mr. Fixit (of bad guys) who travels really, really, really light.
All he carries on his person is a driver's license, an ATM card, and a folding toothbrush. Every few days he goes to a uniform shop or a used clothing emporium and buys an entire new kit of clothes and shoes, and leaves the old behind in a trash bin.
I don't remember how he deals with TSA guys who wonder why he buys tickets with cash and never carries luggage, but if they check his bona fides they will learn that he is a decorated former U.S. Army military police major who held a high security clearance.
Great train reading, by the way, if you don't mind the theatrical violence.
Posted by royaltrain (Member # 622) on :
For the first time in 20 years I decided to give the airlines another chance after my horrid experience with Amtrak last year (25 hour late Coast Starlight, poor on-board service etc). Every Christmas I visit my very elderly and frail mother in Las Vegas. In the past I always thought it fun to take The Canadian across Canada, Amtrak to Los Angeles, rent a car to drive to LV and back to connect with the SW Chief to Chicago and the Lake Shore to Buffalo and eventually home to Toronto.
But I'm getting too old to put up with all that inconvenience, and dragging heavy bags filled with various goodies since I cannot depend on Amtrak to consistently provide food and beverage service. So I booked a business class ticket on Air Canada direct non-stop from Toronto to Las Vegas. Fortunately I departed two days before the terrorist incident and missed all the "fun" of the new security measures. Coming back there was no enhanced security in Las Vegas and everything went smoothly (even the nonsense of removing my shoes). As for the fare, the most expensive J class ticket on Air Canada was about half of what I would have paid going by rail. I am aware that five days (or more) on the train really can't compare with less than five hours on a plane, however, given the good service, food and cocktails on the plane does make a difference. Of course if I had to put up with standing around for hours just to board an airplane, perhaps I will again consider Amtrak. Fortunately since I just missed the terrorist incident, and everything went perfectly (no delays, baggage retrieved within five minutes of departing aircraft, no long lines) I was impressed with my experience.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Mr. Royal throwing in the towel? This is tantamount to DPM doing same after he penned "Chico Calls It Quits" and "Excuse the First Person" during early 1968.
Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
I'm right there with you, Royaltrain. I have once again discovered how great air travel is. I pretty much gave up on Amtrak, except for their commuter service on the Capitols in California. Now that Virgin America offers a superior product and outstanding fares, I have no reason to take Amtrak any more. It used to be fun and enjoyable, but their crappy equipment (usually poorly maintained) and hit-and-miss employees and yucky food made me say "forget it!".
Posted by wayne72145 (Member # 4503) on :
Last February I went round trip from Eugene to Boston and at the time felt that 6 days on the train for a 10 day vacation was a bit much. On my next trip to Boston in November I flew out and took the train back. The one way flight was enough for me to swear off flying for good. I have two more vacations planned for the east coast. A trip to Washington DC in April and a Gettysburg trip in July. I had planned to fly out and rail back on both trips----after an ugly flying experience it is now an all Amtrak show for me. I have had bad experiences on Amtrak, a terrible car attendant on two trips and bad equipment on another (a Viewliner in winter so cold you could hang meat) The Airlines have to take the cake in the same period of time. Missed connections, left couped up for over 4 hours twice on the runway. After having worked in the mines I now have panic condition as a result of the runway experiences. I seem to be more comfortable when things go wrong on Amtrak.
Posted by sbalax (Member # 2801) on :
My flight experience on the 28th was totally uneventful. As mentioned above, I checked a bag -- which I rarely do. There was literally no line at Southwest at the Nashville Airport. I used the kiosk to check the bag in -- I had I already checked myself in online -- and it took 9 minutes from that point until I was through security and putting my shoes back on. I've discovered that the TSA personnel at BNA are some of the most competent and polite in the system.
The Southwest non-stop to LAX was in an oversale situation and there were people more than happy to take up the offer of the full value of the one-way leg of their trip + a $200.00 travel credit and a hotel for the night.
I sat next to a delightful 81 year old lady who was born in Alabama but who had lived most of her life in Detroit and Toledo, Ohio. She was traveling to her daughter's funeral in Los Angeles and our conversation ranged from travel to family to her pride in living long enough to see a Black Family in the White House.
Have a safe, healthy and happy New Year!
Frank in sunny but cool SBA
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: Mr. Royal throwing in the towel? This is tantamount to DPM doing same after he penned "Chico Calls It Quits" and "Excuse the First Person" during early 1968.
Editorials which I have now read courtesy of xerox and Mr. Norman......... I didn't begin reading Trains on a monthly basis until December, 1972. Ironically, as Asheville, NC, was still served by Southern Railway passenger trains in 1972, it was through reading Trains that I learned of this strange thing with purple upholstery called Amtrak.
I think that the fact remains that for most of us, the Long Distance trains are a recreational choice rather than the 'best available' option. When service falls to below acceptable more often than not (and each of us have different thresholds for what is unacceptable), we begin looking for other outlets for our recreational travel.
For instance, I'm as likely now to fly to Minneapolis for a rare-mileage excursion put on by the Friends of the 261 (I wonder what locomotive they will befriend next?) or fly to Colorado and spend several days riding narrow gauge steam trains as I am to spend several days aboard Amtrak trains. I am hoping that by the time winter turns to spring that we'll be back to 'normal' for flying and I can again get myself to somewhere with unusual trains.
I'm rooting for corridor development beyond the three coasts (fans of drum corps may recall when the Madison Scouts declared Wisconsin the 'third coast') but not since my graduate school days in College Park, MD have I lived in an area where taking the train might be the best first option.
Posted by royaltrain (Member # 622) on :
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: Mr. Royal throwing in the towel? This is tantamount to DPM doing same after he penned "Chico Calls It Quits" and "Excuse the First Person" during early 1968.
I know, Mr. Norman, it does seem unbelievable that I would go back to the airlines. Although my experience this Christmas was a good one, I would still rather not fly, and will do so only for urgent reasons rather than for a holiday. By urgent I mean visiting my mother or some other imperative reason. I might take Amtrak again in the future, but I will have to hear of improvements before I will travel with them again.
P.S. people who know me both socially and at work are in a state of shock about my decision to fly.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
This Wall Street Journal (you may or may not be able to access if you are not a subscriber) article regarding the Frequent Flier wish list should be interesting. Note how it concentrates around security, baggage handling, and flight crew fatigue - all important issues of course. But note the absence of anything regarding better in-flight service, including edible meals, and courteous Barbie Doll Stewardesses.
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