Hello! Just a few questions that come to mind now and then, and I haven't been able to easily find answers. I'm sure someone here knows the answers. Thank you!
1. Why does the California Zephyr terminate outside San Francisco? Local commuter trains go right into the city; why doesn't Amtrak go there as well? Did SF ever have direct rail service?
2. What is the deal with the eastern end of the Sunset Limited? It has been more than four years since Katrina; why has service not been restored? And why does the Amtrak schedule still show the SL as a Orlando-LA train, instead of just calling it a New Orleans-LA route?
3. What's the latest on rail service to Las Vegas? Why was rail service to LV discontinued to begin with? One would think that there would be sufficient demand for such service.
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
1. The CZ arrives in the Bay area from the north and is on the "wrong" side of the bay. To arrive in SF itself would require a long detour south and then back north into the peninsular that SF sits on, which would probably take a good couple of hours more. The maintenance faciliies are near its current terminus so the train doesn't have far to go for servicing.
2. Nobody knows. Some here will think they know, others have heard facts (read: rumours) second hand, many have theories, probably even a few government conspiracies. What is known is that crews would need to be re-trained which would apparently take quite some time. Throw in a few union disputes for good measure.
There are also suggestions of changing a couple of trains, such as continuing the City of New Orleans (train) to Jacksonville, FL, stub trains from San Antonio to New Orleans, etc. Lots of plans, ideas, rumours, speculation, surveys, reports, and millions of dollars spent with nothing to show for it.
3. I'll let others answer that one.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
While I should not disturb Mr. Mayo's objective response to Ms. Bumble's perfectly reasonable inquiry, I believe the reason the Sunset timetable page shows Orlando-New Orleans with the caption "The Sunset Limited service between Orlando and New Orleans has been suspended. Future service has not been determined", is that Sunset East has only been annulled and not formally discontinued. In order to discontinue the service, Amtrak would have had to file 180 Day Notice under ARAA '97. Those provisions provide for parties, such as various ad hoc advocacy groups, choosing to object to the discontinuance to have such reviewed through public hearings, and could possibly result in Amtrak being required to restore the service.
However, Amtrak's strategy to be rid of a service they would just as soon not operate was to use the annulment tactic arising from Hurricane Katrina. The CSX line over which Sunset operated has long since been restored to service, but Amtrak appears to hold that this annulment is the best means to ensure the Sunset is not again operated.
I guess it could be said that Sunset East is Amtrak's Korean War in which, lest we forget, even if hostilities ceased 56 years ago, a state of war still exists between North and South Korea.
Now to continue with Ms. Bumble's point on which Mr. Mayo defers, I'm certain that an Angels to Meadows corridor service with a frequency of not less than "five a day', but otherwise "plain old trains" running on a five hour schedule, would be an overnight success. The problem of course is that the rail lines over Cajon Pass are owned by both the BNSF and UP railroads - and, if not at present owing to the Recession, will need all the capacity these lines hold to handle freight traffic once the economy recovers. In short, the trackage is not available for additional passenger trains.
The previous LA-LV service ended during 1996 when the CHI-LAX Desert Wind was killed - and by now it is axiomatic to any here that once an LD route is killed, it is not coming back.
Posted by rresor (Member # 128) on :
A bit more on the California Zephyr's California terminal location: For many years, both Southern Pacific and Western Pacific trains terminated at the "Oakland Mole" station, adjacent to a ferry terminal where travelers could catch a boat to San Francisco's Ferry Terminal (foot of Market Street). The closest railroad bridge crosses the bay from roughly Fremont to Dumbarton, CA, about halfway down the peninsula. It is currently out of service, owned by the state, and may someday carry high speed trains. But it would still be a long way out of the way for trains between San Francisco and the east.
The ferries stopped running, IIRC, in the 1950s, and the two railroads began terminating passenger trains in Oakland (16th Street and 3rd Street, respectively), with bus connections across the Oakland Bay Bridge. The Western Pacific train continued to Middle Harbor Road throughout its operation, since that was where the yard and servicing facilities were located.
Many years ago, I think SP did run a train out of San Francisco, across the Dumbarton Bridge, and east through Niles Canyon. The SP line through Niles Canyon is now largely abandoned.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Mr. Resor, The SP ferries lasted until July 30, 1958. The San Leandro, according to TRAINS, was last boat to sail. The Zephyr bus transfer was made at Middle Harbor Road as distinct from 3rd Street.
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
It should be mentioned that ferries ply between Jack London Square in Oakland, right across from the Amtrak stop there, and the Ferry Building in San Francisco.
Of course the Zephyr terminates at Emeryville a few miles north, but I believe Amtrak operates a bus from Emeryville to Jack London Square.
Sure, the Emeryville-Ferry Building Amtrak bus is faster, but the ferry is more fun.
Posted by PullmanCo (Member # 1138) on :
As as sidelight, Frank Sinatra opened his late 1950s movie "Pal Joey" taking an SP ferry from the Mole to The City.
Posted by wayne72145 (Member # 4503) on :
As a child growing up in the Bay Area I can remember only the Richmond/San Rafael Ferry and after the Richmond Bridge was built in 1955 only the Martinez/Benicia Ferry still plied the bay. On Friday nights we would go to Oakland on San Pablo Avenue and right after we passed the Oaks Ball Park in Emeryville there was a train station at 40th and San Pablo, the SP Station was on 16th so I'm assuming this was the Western Pacific Station. This was also where the Key System took passengers across the bridge.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman:
However, Amtrak's strategy to be rid of a service they would just as soon not operate was to use the annulment tactic arising from Hurricane Katrina. The CSX line over which Sunset operated has long since been restored to service, but Amtrak appears to hold that this annulment is the best means to ensure the Sunset is not again operated.
Just this morning I finished reading a newly published book by a journalist named James McCommons. In the book, titled 'Waiting on A Train', the author notes that the pre-Katrina 'Sunset East' was barely recovering 20% of it's operating costs......a figure so low that apparantly even Amtrak was eager to be rid of it.........
I'm about to open a new thread on McCommmons' book...
Posted by TwinStarRocket (Member # 2142) on :
If one would prefer to continue on rails, how convenient is it to use BART from the Zephyr to SF? Is it practical to carry luggage? Bumpkin flatlander from Zip 5 wants to know.
Posted by RRCHINA (Member # 1514) on :
The 40th street and San Pablo depot was the Santa Fe depot. Santa Fe's trains ran north through Berkley and Richmond, then easterly through Antioch and on to Stockton before then routeing southerly to Fresno and Bakersfield from where they crossed the Tehachapi Pass to Barstow where they joined Santa Fe's LA to Chicago main line.
Posted by rresor (Member # 128) on :
The most convenient BART transfer is at Richomnd, where the CalTrain and BART stations are adjacent. I believe Amtrak's CZ also stops there (correct me please, if wront), and if that's the case, that's where you would want to catch BART. Emeryville is not particularly close to a BART station, and neither is Jack London Square.
Posted by wayne72145 (Member # 4503) on :
I find the best way to get to San Francisco is by Amtrak Thruway. When I ride down for a Giants game on the Starlight I book SFP. That way I get a ride to within two blocks of the ball park. I do the same when I go to the park from my sisters in Sacramento, Sis and I always take the Capitols to the games from Sac and take the Thruway from Emeryville.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
To put geographic points on it: To go from Emeryville / Oakland to San Francisco's railroad station, which is at 4th between King St. and Townsend St. commonly called as being at 4th and King would require you to go to San Jose first. Thus, you travel about 90 miles to get between points that are 10 miles apart.