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I asked this question in another thread and it might have gotten lost in the other stuff I wrote. Back in my early days of riding Amtrak I was sure there was a third Silver Service train between Miami and New York, yet I can't find anything on the web about it, only references and train numbers for the Star and Meteor. Am I imagining it?
Ocala Mike Member # 4657
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Geoff, not sure of the exact chronology, but The Palmetto was the train you're thinking about. Maybe someone else can weigh in here with the date that it was truncated back to end its run at Savannah, GA.
Henry Kisor Member # 4776
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Here are the Wikifacts:
"The Palmetto was originally the Palmetto Limited, inaugurated November 1, 1910 by the Atlantic Coast Line Railroad between New York and St. Petersburg (beyond Tampa).
"From the late 90s to late 2002, the Palmetto was known as the Silver Palm (part of the Silver Service brand). Until November 1, 2004 the Palmetto continued south to Jacksonville, Florida with the Silver Meteor and Silver Star, but turned west at Jacksonville to Baldwin and then ran south via Ocala to Coleman on the old Seaboard Air Line Railroad main line. From Coleman it continued southwest to Lakeland, then west to Tampa, reversing direction to Auburndale and running south to Miami. With the truncation to Savannah, the Silver Star was rerouted to service Tampa; the old Jacksonville-Lakeland route is now served by a Thruway Motorcoach bus transfer from the Silver Star, which serves all the former stations as well as Gainesville."
RRRICH Member # 1418
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We also had the Champion, back in the 70's. which I believe ran from NYP to Tampa only, but I don't remember which route it took from JAX to Tampa.
Ocala Mike Member # 4657
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I should be up on those dates. I actually rode the Palmetto from Ocala to NYP in July, 1995. At that time it was making Ocala in the late afternoon, but later the Palmetto had its schedule revised resulting in station stops along the Ocala-Wildwood route being made at "0-dark-thirty" in both directions and further resulting (of course) in a huge dropoff in passenger count along the "S line".
So, for me, I have two A-Days to remember, 5/1/71 and 11/1/04 (end of train service in Ocala).
notelvis Member # 3071
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The facts above are correct - The 'Silver Palm' reverted back to the 'Palmetto' name when it was cut-back (and lost it's sleeper) south of Savannah in 2004.
One note to add - Amtrak's Champion which ran on a schedule 8-12 hours opposite the Silver Star in the 1970's operated via Raleigh, Hamlet, and Columbia on the former Seaboard Railroad. The irony, then as now, is that the Champion was originally an Atlantic Coast Line train operating via Fayetteville and Florence. Amtrak's Champion operated in enemy territory!
Likewise, the current Silver Meteor has been held hostage on foreign rails through the Carolinas since the early days of Amtrak.
Ocala Mike Member # 4657
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True, notelvis, but before CSX there was SCL (Seaboard Coast Line). Were they really "enemies"?
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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Quite correct Mike, but there were Seaboard teams and Coast Line teams within SCL. When CSX, and especially Snowman came along, and the "dumb-dumb' came down to truncate one Atlantic Coast route, I guess the Coast Line guys had better parliamentary skills than did the Seaboard faction.
Efficient handling of passenger traffic aside, I still think that capacity reduction was a dumb-dumb. But (fortunately) Snowman is gone from the scene.
disclaimer: author does NOT hold any position in CSX and has no plans to do so. CSX is controlled by an off-shore hedge fund and FAIK, they are turning it into a betting parlor, i.e. ENE, AIG masquerading as a bricks and mortar (whoops rails and ties) business enterprise.
notelvis Member # 3071
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And remember -
The Seaboard Coast Line itself was the result of a mid-1960's merger between the Seaboard Airline and Atlantic Coast Line.
Having known some former Seaboard men in my youth....one of them the father of a college classmate and foreman of the Hamlet shops, I would say that calling the two lines 'enemies' would be considered a compliment by the men on either side.....even now!
Doodlebug Member # 4564
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Having grown up in the SAL town of Hamlet and worked for the two-year-old SCL as a brakeman/flagman/trainman the summers of 1969 and '70, I can say there were hard feelings, rivalries and plenty of mistrust between SAL and ACL employees in those immediate post-merger years.
But even as a kid and SAL fan, I considered that was probably natural whenever companies merge.
Shortly after the 1967 merger, an ACL man from Florence, S.C., was transferred to Hamlet in some position like trainmaster -- sorry, memory fails -- and moved in across the street from my house. He was never fully accepted in the community, and I'm sure it wasn't entirely his fault.
My co-workers, most of whom were the fathers of my friends, always chafed at things that, in retrospect, seem trivial. SAL slang was to call diesel locomotives "motors," which wasn't technically correct, but they didn't like ACL guys insisting that they quit using the term. There are millions of tiny compromises and changes that come with a merger, and every one that resulted in the adoption of an ACL term, practice, form or anything else becoming the SCL standard was noticed, decried and resented.
People don't like change, the Silver Meteor should still run through Hamlet along with the Silver Star, and if Amtrak wants to run a passenger train with sleepers "down the Coast Line side," it ought to be called the Champion.
Ocala Mike Member # 4657
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Interesting stuff, guys; I guess old rivalries die hard. I live in a town that was visited by both Seaboard and Atlantic Coast Line trains, a reminder of which still exists, namely the "diamond" crossing at what's left of our railroad station building downtown, which served both railroads "back in the day."
notelvis Member # 3071
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Hey Mike,
Is the Ocala depot still a bus station? It's a real shame that you're no longer on the Amtrak RAIL map.
Ocala Mike Member # 4657
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Yes, Greyhound, local (city) buses, and the Amtrak connecting buses serve it. I think for a time there was an airport shuttle company (ironic) operating out of it, but I think they might have gone bust.
I drive by the station once in a while. In recent months, they have removed the Amtrak "Ocala" station sign from the vicinity of the platform, removed the legend "Amtrak" from the brick-face sign which reads "Ocala Union Station" and removed the platform overhanging canopy so as not to impede the increase in freight traffic the "S" line is supposed to be getting which will pass through our fair town.
All of the above, I guess, meant to drive a stake through the heart of any possibility that a passenger train will ever call at Ocala again.
Geoff Mayo Member # 153
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Aha, Silver Palm it was then. I hadn't realised it turned into the Palmetto. Thanks all.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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Mike, how about the rather large pointless Arrow atop the ticket cage that I noted last time I set foot on those premises during 2004?
Ocala Mike Member # 4657
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Gil, no more ticket cage (it went a couple of years ago), ergo no more large pointless arrow. Only trace of Amtrak at all has to do with the connecting buses. I assume one can buy a ticket on the bus, no? I wouldn't know; refuse to ever use the connecting buses; travel from Palatka or Deland instead.
sojourner Member # 3134
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I have a vague memory of riding the third Silver train (I thought it was called the Silver Cloud for some reason!) when it went to Florida but did not have a sleeper.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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Yes Ms. Sojourner, Silver Palm did loose its Sleeper before its end (Savannah-Miami) during October 2004 (it and the Three Rivers were the only whackings during the "Amtrak hating" Bush administration, lest we forget. I'm still placing my bets something will get whacked before Obama leaves office likely during 2017 - Byrd will check out and The Cardinal flies away?).
This was a decision Amtrak made to reassign the cars to routes where the demand clearly was. Also considered was that the Viewliner fleet wasn't getting younger and needed heavy repairs.
rresor Member # 128
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Well, it's all ancient history now, and everybody on this board is probably tired of hearing me griping about how Amtrak destroyed the Florida service. But they did; they really did.
In April of 1971 SCL still ran four "full service" passenger trains NYP to Florida points: the Florida Special (NYP -- MIA via "A" line); the Silver Meteor (NYP -- MIA via "S" line); "Silver Star" (via "S" line; split at Wildwood for both coasts); "Champion" (via A line, with cars to various Florida West Coast destinations.
Amtrak scheduled only two trains, adding a third ("Florida Special" for at least one year, then "Vacationer"). But that only lasted through the 1970s. The Palmetto appeared in the 1980s, first NYP -- JAX and then cut back to Savannah. FL sponsored the "Silver Palm" MIA to TPA in the mid-1980s. But at no time did the number of services ever come close to what SCL ran.
notelvis Member # 3071
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Add to the Bush era whackings the short-lived and probably ill-advised 'Kentucky Cardinal'. It too lost it's Viewliner Sleeper and limped out it's final months as a (single) coach only milk train.
Suffice to say that the Viewliners were not 'right' from the outset. Things started going 'wrong' with those cars almost immediately...
Oh but for a sturdy 10&6 Heritage sleeper....
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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Lest we forget, Mr. Presley, the KEYCARD was only whacked Indy-Lvlle, but then you have noted that was the "hometown train" for some in your family.
And one more adios, the Lake Country Limited: anybody miss that?
Now regarding the Sleepers' configuration, Viewliner or Superliner, I believe the biggest problem is that there should be more Bedrooms available and Amtrak should not be blanketly selling Roomettes as a two person accommodation.
On the joyride aboard 58(7), I met this 70 something couple both obese (not overweight, obese) he needed a breathing apparatus, and in addition to about the six bags they had checked, the Roomette was full of the stuff they needed while on board (his "medbag" alone looked as big as my over the shoulder flight bag - which is all I had with me and is all I ever seem to take when I'm going somewhere by air).
I'm sorry, but Amtrak had no business booking these people into a Roomette. The least they could and should have done was to have given them one in the otherwise unoccupied T-Dorm. He told me his belly was "as good as" toching the ceiling in the Upper bunk.
Roomettes are a single person accommodation as George M's latter day successors recognized (Amtrak consultants know it all, don't they?). While I think it wise Amtrak put two beds in such, that does not make it a two "any-person" accomodation.
Roomettes are a single adult accommodation, with the second bed for an adult traveling with a small child. It also could be for two adolescents whose Mother and Father have a Bedroom elsewhere, or for two young able bodied adults who are briefed regarding just what they are getting.
I remember asking these people "How did you book?" "By phone". "What did the reservationist say?" "Two passengers, no problem."
Finally, any of the dozen or so here that know me face to face will surely affirm that I am, as 69 year olds go, able bodied. However, I'm starting to find it difficult to climb into an Upper bunk. I prefer the Upper in a Roomette as the lower area becomes a "sitting room".
amtrak92 Member # 14343
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The heritage cars were much better, and I think in much better shape.
bill haithcoat Member # 6773
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While it did not go to Florida, let us not forget the Silver Comet.It ran on the Seaboard line from NY,WAS,Richmond to Atlanta and Birmingham. It was discontinued about 1969 I believe.
Again, I know this is not part of a "Florida' discusson but it is an integral part of a "silver "discussion.
Th Silver Meteor began about 1939. The Star and the Comet began about 1947 or so,
amtrak92 Member # 14343
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The Seaboard used to have tons of trains bound for Florida, even into the SCL day
bill haithcoat Member # 6773
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Well leaving the silver but staying in the Florida aspect let us not forget the good old Orange Blossom Special of counry music fame
It was a real train,not just a song.It was a Seaboard train from NY to FLorida. Though heavyweight it was kept spruced up untl the end. It was winter season only. I am thinking its last winter was Dec 1952 to April 53 but I could be wrong by one year either way.
amtrak92 Member # 14343
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I like the viewliner roomette. When I travel I always have the bunk down, and I ride, and lay down the whole way. Looks like a slumbercoach double
sojourner Member # 3134
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Which was the train that Flagler ran to Key West until the infamous hurricane? I think it would have been so romantic to take, and then the ferry to Cuba; I kept thinking that when I visited the ferry building in Key West and saw the older posters, etc.
Ocala Mike Member # 4657
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I don't know if that train lasted long enough to even have been given a name, but you can read all about it here:
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Henry Flagler ran an entire railroad as such, the Florida East Cost. No one particular train. A train was named for him later, 1939, but it never went to Key West.
ehbowen Member # 4317
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quote:Originally posted by sojourner: Which was the train that Flagler ran to Key West until the infamous hurricane? I think it would have been so romantic to take, and then the ferry to Cuba; I kept thinking that when I visited the ferry building in Key West and saw the older posters, etc.
Sojourner, I believe that you are thinking of the Havana Special. It ran through New York to Key West until the Key West Extension was destroyed by the 1935 hurricane; afterwards it remained on the time card as a premium New York-Miami train. Don't have my references with me right now, but I believe it lasted into the early 1960s.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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Lasted until A-Day Mr. Bowen, albeit under a new name - the Gulf Coast Special.
ehbowen Member # 4317
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Ah, yes. After about 1961 or so "Havana" was no longer, shall we say, a fashionable term in the U.S.
jp1822 Member # 2596
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I certainly agree that Amtrak destroyed train service to Flordia. The closest thing it was doing to get back on track was having the Silver Meteor, Silver Star, and Silver Palm leave their end terminus' at varying points throughout the day (i.e. morning, mid-day, evening) and include full service Heritage Diner cars and Viewliner sleepers. Even the Silver Meteor was receiving three Viewliners pretty regularly around 2001 or so. There were of course Warrington's grand plans to have the Silver Service extended to Boston and even route one of them down the FEC. The later we are still waiting on, the former, I doubt will ever come to be. The biggest gripe I have now is, even with what Florida service is left, there's portions where the Silver Meteor and Silver Star are nearly "riding the markers" of each other - or at least through Florida. And even leaving NYC, the Silver Star leaves around 11 a.m. with the Silver Meteor leaving a mere 4 hours later. Again, it would be nice to see some spacing. And if the Silver Meteor left NYP southbound later and arrived NYP northbound earlier, it would free up a precious long distance eastern overnight train set.
amtrak92 Member # 14343
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I agree. Or if they could move the star earlier, it would service more communities in daylight, and the trains wouldn't be riding the markers
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