It's always nice to see a positive Amtrak article. This one is about Auto Train.
I know we have talked about this before, but maybe Amtrak would gather broader support if there was more of this type train rather than some of our LD trains whose usefulness is debatable by some.
Posted by PullmanCo (Member # 1138) on :
Where?
A-T is a run that requires specialized equipment. You have to have gathering places and discharge places. They can't be every division point.
On 5-6, I'd say Chicago - Denver is one segment, Denver - California is one segment, and full distance is one segment.
On 3-4, Chicago to Wichita?/Amarillo?/Albuqueque? if on thr Transcon, Chicago-Albuquerque if on the traditional Santa Fe, Whatever the middle stop is to LA, and Chicago to LA...
Even DB's auto trains have an on and an off point, period.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
Yes, Mr. Pullman - this would mean a very different kind of Amtrak. Rather than trying to be all things to all people along a route, it would be going after those who would normally drive and presumably with more discretionary income to pay for the rail fare, sleeper, and hauling their auto. The O/D points you mention would be a good start.
I wonder how much revenue each auto carrier generates with relatively little expense as compared to the passenger carrying cars. Much of the station expense would disappear as well.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
While it flies in the face of existing practice and presumably union agreements (Mr. Norman, enlightenment here?), why not operate Auto-Train service over the routes of trains 3/4 & 5/6 BUT also offer service to the intermediate cities with the same train?
Your Zephyr or Chief could depart Chicago Union Station with a locomotive, baggage car, pair of sleepers, lounge car, and two or three coaches.
Then..... at some outlying suburban 'gathering point' pause to add another locomotive or two to the the front and then 10-12 additional passenger cars followed by 10-12 automobile carriers to the rear.
Service the intermediate stations spotting your 6-8 car passenger train at the existing stations for a few minutes..... detach your Auto-Train segment of the consist (and perhaps replace with new Auto-Train segments) is suburban Denver and Albuquerque.....
I mean why not?
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Such an operation, Mr. Presley, is a "been there done that" for Amtrak. While the Midwest Auto Train operated, that describes the operation at both Sanford and South Louisville (near KSDF).
Regarding the route of the Chief, I have long held that there could be potential markets for Auto Train Service, namely 1-2 Auto carriers with passengers accommodated in line space over these routes:
Galesburg-Irondale (10 miles E of Denver) Galesburg-La Junta Albuquerque-San Barnardino
Naturally, if there was adequate demand for these services, and (rail) cars could be made available, then it would be time to evaluate handling such along with the Carriers.
Posted by TwinStarRocket (Member # 2142) on :
From my Midwest perspective, a market exists for wealthy snowbirds to escape winter. In my younger days I would travel using "driveaway" cars. Through a "driveaway" agency, people would pay mucho bucks to have their car driven for them to avoid the plains blizzards, and the agency would advertise destinations in the paper. People like me who wanted to travel would answer the ads and get a car to travel with, usually expensive and new (my first was a new 1966 GTO convertible Minneapolis-LA). I would find dozens of cars to AZ and SoCal Nov-Jan and coming back in March and April.
Galesburg to ABQ would be perfect for an Auto Train. Just enough to avoid the snowstorms and boredom. Once in the warmer southwest, these folks might want to choose their own scenic route to finish the trip.
Posted by sojourner (Member # 3134) on :
Yes, the biggest users of an Autotrain are people going somewhere to stay for a long period, like snowbirds, who want to bring their cars. So having an Autotrain to AZ/NM, southern CA, and maybe TX seems like a good bet.
One thing that would make the Autotrain do tons more business in the East, though, would be if they could come up with a way to start nearer the NYC market. For people making the drive from the NE, the worst part is NYC-to-DC, so the Auto Train doesn't save them from the worst part of the trip.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Mr. Twin Star, Galesburg-La Junta (vice ABQ) was selected to avoid the expense to Amtrak of operating a heavier train over Raton Pass. Further, an auto can make it over the Pass in less time than can the train. A La Junta "terminal" would enable Amtrak to market the service for those with Southern Colorado and Northern New Mexico destinations.
Finally, here is past discussion we have had regarding Auto Train routes:
For those headed to Albuquerque and the southwest, why not take the BNSF up on their offer of the southern route - no grades for a long train and since no intermediate stops, it would fit right into their conveyor belt of intermodal trains.
But yes, Sojourner, we shouldn't neglect the east. However I think Amtrak has too much invested in Lorton to pull out and that route certainly 'works' if maybe not the most desirable. Maybe an NS routing from Allentown, Pa via Hagerstown, Front Royal, Manassas, Washington then south could work but would be very difficult.
So, I would suggest linking our new Galesburg terminal with the one in Lorton. Who knows, might even be some through autos from the west to FL.
Seriously, I do wonder why Amtrak doesn't seriously consider expanding Auto Train since its got one of the best cost recovery ratios at a $.10 fully allocated loss per passenger mile versus the next best at .16 posted by the Empire Builder (worst is Sunset at .50).
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
The combined Louisville Auto-Train/Floridian operation was really doomed from the start for a variety of reasons.
The schedule had passengers on the train for about 24 hours...... longer than the typical targeted Auto-Train passenger then or now would accept.
There were those who suggested that Louisville was further than the average Chicagoan was willing to drive to catch the train.... Indianapolis might have fared better had the track been in decent shape north of Louisville.
The Amtrak Floridian was having real reliability issues..... old cars.... some breakdowns.... an accident or two.....
This combined operation was really a case of two stepchildren hooking up and not really making it once they did...... not that anyone was surprised by that.
And that Louisville AT station....which I used as an Amtrak passenger on four separate occasions AFTER Auto-Train had pulled the plug on their Louisville operation altogether was not quite easy enough to find off the highway.
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
This thread reminds me of a question I've been meaning to ask but haven't gotten around to yet:
If enough additional Superliner sleepers are purchased so that one more can be coupled onto each of the Western long-distance trains to help meet increasing demands, what will that do to dining car service? Will the increased number of sleeper passengers overtax diner capacity -- requiring purchase of more dining cars?
I suppose Amtrak has researched the issue but don't know if the results have been shared with us.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
An existing 52-53 Auto Train consist can have as many as six sleepers (40 X 6 = 240) - and served three seatings in one Diner. No table commandeered by the Crew for "love Amtrakfests", no table for the flatware. One server per eight patrons - cooked to order fare.
Additionally, the Lounge Car is used for Breakfast service that is handled Open Seating.
Close quarters, but everybody gets served.
However, Coach passengers, where a maximum of four coaches will be in consist (80 X 4 = 320), have two Diners for their casserole fare.
But again, new Auto Train Service routes should be "baby steps first'; one or two auto carriers (20 Autos and or SUV's) and line space.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
Henry,
Off the top of my head I would think the existing Superliner Diners could handle the passenger load an additional sleeper would generate on the western trains.
The diner staff would probably need to be expanded by one server and perhaps one additional person downstairs to keep things moving efficiently.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
Yes, I think increased staffing would be an easy answer to more first class passengers. I once noted a holiday season Silver Meteor in the 60's leaving Washington. It had nine sleepers and just one diner.
But no doubt it also had 5 or 6 waiters and a fully staffed galley. Granted a Superliner sleeper carries more passengers than a heritage car, but then a Superliner diner has more tables too.
Posted by sojourner (Member # 3134) on :
NINE sleepers? Did PAX have to walk through all those cars to get to the diner?
Posted by ehbowen (Member # 4317) on :
On all the Superliner diners I've traveled on since Simplified Dining Service was implemented (Sunset Limited and Texas Eagle Cross Country Cafe) the crew only used the seating in half of the car. There should be plenty of extra capacity.
I'm pushing it here, but I seem to remember on my first Amtrak trip (July 1979) that the ex-Santa Fe 48 seat diner was staffed by two waiters, a full-time steward, and either four or five cooks and helpers in the kitchen. The Superliners were originally designed with that kind of full-crew staffing model in mind.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
No sojourner, the diner was in the middle of the sleepers and marked the split between those going to the west coast and those going to the east coast.
A photo of a B&O diner shows 6 waiters standing at attention between their tables - imagine that today (and imagine the service you got).
Posted by TwinStarRocket (Member # 2142) on :
I have made the decision. Auto train terminals will be built at Galesburg, Belen and Barstow. Auto Train for 3/4 will run as a separate train using the Transcon from Galesburg to Belen with a diner, stopping in KC, Wichita, and Amarillo. 3/4 will continue to run via Raton. Passengers without autos can ride either train, and can change at KC and Belen to connect Wichita and Amarillo to the world. This allows ABQ to be served without a backup or wye, and adds Wichita and Amarillo without losing ever popular Garden City. (Some towns on the Raton route have fixed up their stations so well they deserve continued service.)
Due to limited stops, higher speed, and possibly an earlier departure at Galesburg, Auto Train would arrive at Belen early enough to finish unloading/loading before becoming a combined train with the old 3/4 to Barstow (think Vegas with your car).
Dinner would be served at Galesburg for westbound passengers before departure while cars are loaded. Galesburg might also work for a 5/6 Auto train to Denver, Grand Junction, & Sparks? Note I am choosing intermediate stops with rail yards so switching might be practical.
My shovel will be ready when I finish with the snow. I will speak to Warren Buffet when I see him next to insure BNSF support.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
quote:Originally posted by palmland: A photo of a B&O diner shows 6 waiters standing at attention between their tables - imagine that today (and imagine the service you got).
Capitol Limited during April 1961 was "a ride to remember". However there was a twin-unit Diner so there were more than six Waiters.
Oh, and B&O tableware (likely china) was "uh, not exactly' Amtrak.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
As a kid I well remember carefully eating my mash potatoes so I could see the bridge at Harper's Ferry on the plate. It was used until the end of B&O's dining cars and then continued to be available as a reproduction, as did the silver. I managed to get a place setting for 5 of original and the reproduction. No one will likely make Amtrak china a collector's item - but then, stranger things have happened.
And, TSR, Belen isn't a bad spot for AutoTrain west. It's on I-25 headed towards El Paso and not far from I-40 nor ski areas in Taos. In fact, an Auto Train Sunset from Houston could get there as well. It's where the BNSF line from El Paso crosses the Trasncon on the way to ALB. If you've got the shovel, who has the check?
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
FWIW, Mr. Palmland, I had Thanx Dinner served on B&O China - friends, collectors, dealers, residing in Amana IA. Throw in B&O wineware for good measure.
Posted by sojourner (Member # 3134) on :
Maybe if they have an auto train to Grand Junction they can save that nice old station there!
Posted by train lady (Member # 3920) on :
I can remember the days when there were 2 lounges on the Cap.The one for the 1st class served drinks and platters of munchies before dinner. It had sofas and overstuffed chairs. the diner was divided with one half for 1st class and the other for coach (and never shall the twain shall meet!)In 1st class when you were seated they brought you wine and appetisers while you checked the menu.Alas such days are gone!!!
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Here is a Capitol Limited consist from my records and recorded during what was the "last hurrah' (a 1966 airline strike) for the overnight passenger train to provide needed transportation:
While I see little correlation between the Capitol Limited and possible Amtrak Auto Train Service routes, the B&O Capitol Limited definitely had "class lines' drawn. Although a Coach passenger was free to have Dinner in the twin-unit Diner, even fewer Coach passengers ventured into such than do Amtrak Coach passengers today. Coach passengers, if they didn't bring their own food, would take meals in the Bagg-Cafe-Lounge car that was delivered as part of The Columbian's equipment and was placed at the head of a consist.
At one time, the Capitol Limited was an all-Pullman train. Coach passengers were handled in The Columbian (really, shouldn't we be Columbians rather than Americans and shouldn't we really be citizens of the United States of Columbia?) which for a while during the '50's was a separate Wash-Chicago all-Coach train.
Here is a photo of the Obs-Lounges assigned to the Capitol Limited. These cars found their way on to the Amtrak roster and were assigned to the Amtrak Broadway Limited:
Mr. GBN, perhaps you can also recall the outside spotlights on the Capitol Limited dome car which were turned on at night so passengers could see Harpers Ferry and a few other spots like the area around Falling Water in SW PA.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
Interesting train consists, GBN. The airline strike the summer of 1966 was certainly memorable. I had been working a summer job at a duPont plant in what to was to become my retirement town, 40 years later. That summer I took numerous train trips with my new found wealth. One of which was on a strike swollen Humming Bird from Flomaton, AL to Cincinnati. I remember being bitterly disappointed that by then the much reduced consist (but still with observation car) National Ltd. was sold out. So I had to settle for a roomette on C&O's George Washington.
Yes, Train Lady - you have to pay mega bucks now to get personal service that was standard on railroads then. But then, how hard would it be for the attendant on the Starlight parlour car to bring your drinks to your seat and check on his passengers. Might even work in the first class Auto Train lounge (feeble attempt to keep on topic). Guess that's not in their job description.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
Ah....... Palmland - One of my regrets is that I am just a shade too young to have had the opportunity to ride L&N's Humming Bird or Pan American...... though I did once get to watch the Pan American being combined at Louisville Union Station with the South Wind......
And I did manage a couple of trips on Amtrak's Floridian (in the dome) over the L&N between Louisville and Montgomery before that train went away.
Posted by Ocala Mike (Member # 4657) on :
I know we're not discussing the Auto Train any more, but...
In early 1965, while stationed at Keesler AFB, MS, I did a "day trip," Gulfport, MS to NOLA and return via rail. I left in the am, maybe around 8:30 or so, and got back around 10:30 at night. I know I was on the L&N (the "Old Reliable"), but would that have been the Gulf Wind back then in both directions?
Posted by ehbowen (Member # 4317) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ocala Mike: In early 1965, while stationed at Keesler AFB, MS, I did a "day trip," Gulfport, MS to NOLA and return via rail. I left in the am, maybe around 8:30 or so, and got back around 10:30 at night. I know I was on the L&N (the "Old Reliable"), but would that have been the Gulf Wind back then in both directions?
Most likely. The Gulf Wind was still a daily train at that time. I can look it up for you when I get back home.
Posted by Ocala Mike (Member # 4657) on :
Thanks, Eric. Love your website, by the way, especially some of the musical accompaniment.
Posted by ehbowen (Member # 4317) on :
Unfortunately, I had to pull the music; I didn't have the stomach for a battle with the copyright nazis. I looked into licensing the use of the MIDI tunes from ASCAP et al; the terms were completely unrealistic for a non-revenue web site being run as a hobby. C'est la vie.
Posted by rresor (Member # 128) on :
A couple of thoughts on "auto-train" services. Amtrak did run an "experimental" train from Indianapolis to Sanford with Amtrak employees as customers sometime in the late 1970s. The experiment apparently didn't go well and wasn't repeated. I'm not sure what terminal they used in Indy.
The original Auto-Train did operate independently of the Amtrak train, but when patronage fell below expectations, Auto-Train approached Amtrak about combining the trains. The combined train used the Auto-Train terminal south of Louisville.
Finally, for Sojourner: yes, sometimes there were a lot of cars to walk through to get to the diner in the "old days". In the winter of 1970 I rode the "Florida Special" north from Delray Beach, FL. We had 21 cars: baggage, coach lounge, three coaches, diner (for coach passengers), six sleepers, sleeper/lounge, diner, six sleepers, dome sleeper (removed at Richmond).
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Mr. Resor, Auto-Trak - the trade name for Amtrak's Midwest service - terminated at Poinciana, vice Sanford. I can recall circa 1985 looking for any artifacts that may have survived at the former station's site.
I know a former Amtrak employee was stepped up to be a guinea pig for the service (a chargeable week's vacation, but a free ride down and back). His auto was damaged.
Again I note, the institutional goodwill that Amtrak acquired from the Auto Train Estate handing over the expertise in how to safely load and unload autos, how to fairly yet efficiently settle claims, even what to tell passengers to the proverbial "when will I get my car back?' (they know but they ain't telling). All this invaluable expertise Amreak got for $1.00 - likely the best buck Amtrak ever spent.
Posted by ehbowen (Member # 4317) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ocala Mike: I know we're not discussing the Auto Train any more, but...
In early 1965, while stationed at Keesler AFB, MS, I did a "day trip," Gulfport, MS to NOLA and return via rail. I left in the am, maybe around 8:30 or so, and got back around 10:30 at night. I know I was on the L&N (the "Old Reliable"), but would that have been the Gulf Wind back then in both directions?
From June 1965:
Three departures from Gulfport for NOLA: The combined Gulf Wind/Piedmont Ltd./Pan American at 7:16 a.m., the Humming Bird at 2:35 p.m., and the Crescent at 5:34 p.m.
Return departures from NOLA to Gulfport: The combined Pan American/Crescent at 9:00 p.m., the Humming Bird at 8:45 a.m., and the combined Piedmont Limited/Gulf Wind at 5:00 p.m.
From your description of the trip I would say that you departed westbound on the combined Pan American/Gulf Wind/Piedmont Ltd. leaving Gulfport at 7:16 a.m., arriving NOLA at 9:30 a.m. You returned on the combined Pan American/Crescent departing NOLA at 9:00 p.m. and arriving Gulfport at 10:51 p.m. Had you been on the Gulf Wind you would have been four hours earlier.
Sounds like it was a very full day!
Posted by Ocala Mike (Member # 4657) on :
Those times and trains seem correct, Eric. Went to the Fair Grounds Race Track, probably in Feb. or March of 1965, for a Saturday of racing.
Could tell you stories about other trips to New Orleans I took as a young, single USAF 2nd Lt back around that time one of which led to a "night in the pokey" compliments of the Crescent City's finest and their interpretation of Louisiana's Napoleonic Code.
Posted by ehbowen (Member # 4317) on :
And I was a young, single second class petty officer on shore leave in Australia...but (fortunately) I did manage to stay out of the "pokey"!
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
I'm very saddened to learn of Gene Garfield's passing:
Eugene K. Garfield, who originated the American Auto-Train, ferrying passengers and their cars between Virginia and Florida, saving people the effort of driving to their winter vacation homes and the expense of renting cars when they got there, died in Hollywood, Fla., on Sunday. He was 74.
The cause was esophageal cancer, said Brenda Brush, his companion.
In the 1960s, Mr. Garfield worked in Washington in the administration of President Lyndon B. Johnson as assistant to the secretary of transportation, Alan S. Boyd, and as an assistant to the president’s chief of staff, W. Marvin Watson.
During his time there, the Transportation Department conducted a feasibility study for an auto-ferry service between the Northeast and Florida, and concluded that the service would be potentially profitable and best left for the private sector.
Shortly thereafter, when President Johnson declined to run for re-election in 1968, Mr. Garfield returned to the private sector.
“He came home one day and said to my mom, ‘I’m going to run a train,’ ” his daughter, Pamela Garfield, said in an interview.
Likely Gene Garfield was the last passenger rail entrepreneur (as distinct from administrator) to walk this planet and develop a concept attractive to private capital. Although his business enterprise, the Auto Train Corporation failed, it established that there could be strong public acceptance for such in the "right" market. AT established the demand was there for a journey that could be made overnight, but yet, after committing private capital, found that for longer journeys, e.g. Sanford-Louisville, the demand simply was not. That is why I have consistently held "overnight is enough' and have dismissed the longer routes proposed here.
Although Amtrak paid the Estate fair market for the facilities and equipment acquired when the service was resumed during 1983, what else they got was simply like the Master Card ads, "Priceless'. For $1.00, Amtrak reportedly acquired all the Goodwill and institutional expertise that Mr. Garfield instilled within his organization. Such expertise included how to efficiently load and unload vehicles (is it any accident that the ramps at Lorton face Northward and those at Sanford face South enabling vehicles to be handled Roll On-Roll Off?), what to tell passengers and what NOT to tell passengers (no estimates whatever when you'll get your vehicle back, even though they could tell you give or take five minutes).
I haven't traveled AT since 2009 (just "never went down" this year), but should there be a journey next year, my thoughts will to turn to the memory of 'the man who made it happen".
Posted by Ocala Mike (Member # 4657) on :
Didn't know the concept was the brainchild of a single individual. Seems like he was a remarkable man; don't see any like him "coming down the pike" these days, although this country sorely needs people like this.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: I'm very saddened to learn of Gene Garfield's passing:
Likely Gene Garfield was the last passenger rail entrepreneur (as distinct from administrator) to walk this planet and develop a concept attractive to private capital. Although his business enterprise, the Auto Train Corporation failed, it established that there could be strong public acceptance for such in the "right" market. AT established the demand was there for a journey that could be made overnight, but yet, after committing private capital, found that for longer journeys, e.g. Sanford-Louisville, the demand simply was not. That is why I have consistently held "overnight is enough' and have dismissed the longer routes proposed here.
Mr. Norman: I have always wondered if things would have turned out differently for the Louisville train had the L&N track conditions had not been on a downward spiral, in fact to a near death spiral, and likely the SCL line Montogomery to Waycross line similarly, which actually had bugun several years earlier. This situation made for both a rough ride and unreliable timekeeping. The combined Auto Train - Floridian was probably not that good an idea, either, as it worked to delay both sides. I suspect that the low passenger loading on both services that lead to the combination had more to do with the previously mentioned track and timekeeping issues driving away patronage that a true lack of demand.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Mr. Harris, it would not have made any difference whatever. From having "been there done that" nineteen times in this life, be assured that "overnight is enough' and that if AT is not tied up by 1130A, "arewethereyetitis" becomes quite endemic.
The proposals for longer distance AT service are confined to the rail enthusiast community. On my March 09 journey, I do recall seeing one "out of the closet' wearing a 4449 T-Shirt and with a scanner blaring away in his Roomette, but that is all coming to mind.
If the target AT market was, say, 'reloing', or other extended stay, from NY to Arizona, they would be quick to call an auto transport trucking company and find their way to the Big Bird nesting at KJFK or KLGA (KEWR? "whyshudIgoda Joisy just to take a plane?").
Posted by TBlack (Member # 181) on :
Gilbert, My parents were early customers of Mr.Garfield in their annual trek south from MA. Dad was so impressed with the operation that he bought stock in the company. I think I still have the certificate in the archives somewhere. In those days, the demand for beds far out-stripped the supply. Many people had to ride coach who would have paid the premium if they had the option. Is that still true today? Tom
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Amtrak recognized that flaw early on in Gene Garfield's business plan, and provided not less than six single level sleepers "from the get go".
Today, there are six Superliner Sleepers "in season".
The original business plan called for Coach only; perhaps EKG was aware of the high costs of operating Sleepers (even if his "shop" was non-union) and thought he could avoid offering such. The Sleepers added shortly after the inaugural run were not even painted in AT livery - even as ugly as that was.
I had one ride on the private AT during December 1972 - I much prefer any varietal of the Amtrak version (favorite I guess was the ex-MILW Super Dome Diner, circa 1992).
Palmland "MA" and Miss Mary, I might even be "up for a joyride" on such during '11.