As likely any regular reader here knows, Amtrak is mandated un PRIIA '08 to prepare Performance Improvement Plans for each of its Long Distance routes. They have made, in my opinion, a sincere effort to comply with this provision. The Improvement Plan for all-single level trains other than The Cardinal (addressed in another report) has now been released:
I'll bet some wizard around here can figure out how to link directly to the PDF formatted report, but I can't.
I think this Plan, mandated under PRIIA 08, shows that reasonableness and practicality rule. There are no proposals to increase frequencies or to reroute away from existing routes. Advocates who seek an expansion of the Long Distance system will be disappointed.
There are two proposals within the Plan that "caught my eye", one is to make the Lake Shore Dining Car cash free, the other is proposed switching of cars on the Crescent at Atlanta.
From the Report's Executive Summary:
quote:Converting the Lake Shore Limited dining car to a “club-diner” is expected to improve financial performance and customer service. In this pilot initiative, the dining car will operate as a cashless club-diner in which payments will be made by credit/debit cards; the diner will have extended hours for beverage service; and the lounge car menu will be upgraded to provide coach passengers wanting freshly prepared foods with an alternative to purchasing full meals in the diner. These changes will increase food service options and allow diner staff to serve customers during time now spent accounting for cash transactions. Separately, an analysis of meals served in the dining car was conducted and it was determined that one less food service employee would be required during off-peak periods.
I would think that anything, repeat anything, Amtrak could do to minimize, if not totally eliminate, the amount of cash (currency) 'sloshing" about on-board would benefit all, save the few dishonest employees "subjected to undue temptation' (I've seen that phrase within transcripts of hearings I reviewed while in Labor Relations).
The largest problem is that while the report notes that airlines have largely gone to a cash-free environment for in-flight purchases, it is a fairly safe assumption that any adult airline passenger has some kind of electronic transaction card (credit or debit); In fact, I think you need have one in order to purchase an airline ticket. The same can hardly be said of an Amtrak (or Greyhound) passenger - and these passengers have just as much "right' to purchase Food & Beverage on-board as do the others. What I fail to see addressed in the report is how to accommodate these passengers.
I would think some kind of prepaid meal arrangement could be offered definitely for the Diner and could even be implemented, even though the Report does not address such, for Snack Bar purchases. Passengers could purchase a 'gift card' prior to boarding, but I believe Amtrak would be obliged to make a ready refund without penalty of any amounts unused. The downside of this proposal is that impulse buying would be curtailed - and this would be of particular "hurt' for high margin alcoholic beverages.
However, let's address the Diner first, as unit accountability is in place for the Snack Bar inventory. The Diner is where Amtrak property can "grow legs'.
All told, interesting idea that I think is long overdue.
The second proposal of interest simply because it represents a departure from existing Amtrak policy is that to operate several Coaches and the Lounge NYP-ATL only. All ATL-NOL F&B service would be provided in the Diner. This change would eliminate one set of equipment comprising the noted cars and eliminate several On-Board Svc positions. Apparently, the ridership is simply not as strong South of Atlanta as is that North.
The downside is of course having to do intermediate switching that Amtrak evidently avoids "like the plague'. I continue to hold that the restoration of BOS-CHI cars to the Lake Shore was not initiated to enhance the service; it was done so because some "pol' leaned on them. Further a maintenance facility would need be established at Atlanta, but possibly such could be contracted out (consistent with other small servicing operations about the System) reducing costs.
Further, I doubt if switching the cars at Atlanta could be accomplished by the Road crew, which means Amtrak would have to assign an Engine and crew or else contract with the NS to do the work (no assurance they would be receptive). Also that is the NS's main line and when The Crescent makes its station stop, the NS is "tied up". I doubt if NS would, again, "be receptive' to any additional Amtrak interference at Peachtree.
Worth a read - at least the Executive Summary.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
Their PIP's are a good idea. Unfortunately they are usually just that, a plan and not much action.
But this one does have some good ideas: A Thruway bus to eastern NC (why not Asheville) and off the Crescent in several cities, and the cashless diner (not an original thought certainly). The rest seem to be their favorite- cost cutting: eliminate one sleeping car attendant (one will have two cars) and eliminate a server on the LSL in the slow season. Lots of discussion on keeping the pottys clean - shouldn't that be a given for a company serving the public?
My favorite idea was one that was summarily dismissed:
"Preliminary analysis also indicate that rerouting the Silver Star between Raleigh, North Carolina, and Columbia, South Carolina, via Charlotte and Greensboro, North Carolina, would produce significant additional ridership and reduce net operating losses."
Great idea, but it goes on to say:
"However, there is no direct connection between NS’s Charlotte-to-Columbia rail line over which the train would be rerouted and the CSX rail line that serves Amtrak’s Columbia station."
True enough, but how about an easy back up move to the wye that is within sight of the station (the Sunset had a much longer backup move in Jax). I'll bet CSX would be glad to trade that short move to get 91/92 off their tracks from Raleigh to Columbia. Or, better yet, leave the current station (a new Amshack when they left the former SAL station and moved to the new one on a new bypass route), sell the station and land (the area is part of the rapidly expanding popular Vista area), and work out a deal to move back into the large old Southern Ry station (now containing a successful restaurant and next to the Univ of SC). It has a head on connection to the CSX/SAL line south as there is joint trackage from the wye across the river to the junction of the CSX line to Savannah and NS line to Augusta.
The idea was rejected because 'significant investment would be required for equipment (??) and other costs'. Notably, no mention of what the NS would need for the 100 miles on the Charlotte to Columbia portion. Guess they didn't get that far.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
Ridership on the Crescent has always been much stronger north of Atlanta. This was true before Amtrak assumed its' operation from the Southern.
I believe that if the equipment were available, the Crescent's ridership would support 5 or 6 coaches, a diner, a lounge, and 3 or 4 sleepers between New York and Atlanta. South of Atlanta 3 or 4 coaches, 1 or 2 sleepers, and maybe even a single food service car would probably do the trick.
Before I-85 was widened adjacent to Peachtree Station, there was a house track beside the two NS main tracks where a couple of coaches and a sleeper or two dropped by the southbound Crescent could spend the day waiting for the northbound to pick them up in the evening. Sadly, that house track is long gone and any switching and layover in Atlanta would, as noted by Mr. Norman, require an assist from NS now.
Let me pitch an idea that isn't too far-fetched from something Amtrak tried about 20 years ago. Suppose the Crescent, Silver Star, and Silver Meteor all operated with identical consists of around 14 cars. Each train would be configured so that 2-3 coaches, a lounge, and a sleeper could easily be cut-out en route. On the Crescent this cut-out section would turn back in Atlanta providing the extra capacity needed north of there. On the two Silver Service trains this cut-out section (separated at Auburndale) would operate as the Tampa section.
Note that when previously tried on the Crescent, the cut-out section operated as the Gulf Breeze on to Mobile from Birmingham.
Yes....... I know....... it just makes too much sense and the devil is in the details.
Posted by Vincent206 (Member # 15447) on :
An eye-popping number from the proposals is the number of women that ride the LD trains! There's about a 2:1 ratio of women to men. I wonder what the ratio is for Acela and other corridor trains.
The Customer Service Excellence Program is an excellent idea (and way overdue). Amtrak has plenty of employees who are good at customer service, but it's clear that there isn't a company-wide program to teach and mentor service excellence. Hopefully, this Program will bring about some real improvements.
I think it's good that Amtrak is looking at better utilization of the diners and lounge cars. One thing I always notice on LD trips is that my body's rhythm and internal timeclock change. I don't get hungry at 8am, noon and 5pm. I get hungry at different times and I'm not usually hungry at the appropriate times. Sometimes I'd like to eat at odd times. Why can't I sleep in and have breakfast at 9:30? Why can't I have lunch at 3pm or dinner at 4pm? Amtrak's diner schedules force everyone to eat at almost the same time, then the diner closes for a couple of hours. Then there's another rush back to the diner for another feeding session. If Amtrak kept the diner open continuously from 7am to 7pm, then the passengers could eat when they were hungry, the diners could serve more passengers and they might be more efficient.
How necessary is the Boston section of the Lake Shore Limited? The Boston section departs BOS at 1155am and arrives in Albany at 535pm where it sits until 705pm, before it departs westbound. However, there is an Acela that departs BOS at 1115am, arriving in NYP at 245pm, in time to connect passengers to the LSL. Would the passengers from Boston prefer an Acela ride to NYP where they would have to transfer instead of the slow, one seat ride across western MA?
Posted by Jerome Nicholson (Member # 3116) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jerome Nicholson: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Vincent206: [qb] An eye-popping number from the proposals is the number of women that ride the LD trains! There's about a 2:1 ratio of women to men. I wonder what the ratio is for Acela and other corridor trains.
The Customer Service Excellence Program is an excellent idea (and way overdue). Amtrak has plenty of employees who are good at customer service, but it's clear that there isn't a company-wide program to teach and mentor service excellence. Hopefully, this Program will bring about some real improvements.
I think it's good that Amtrak is looking at better utilization of the diners and lounge cars. One thing I always notice on LD trips is that my body's rhythm and internal timeclock change. I don't get hungry at 8am, noon and 5pm. I get hungry at different times and I'm not usually hungry at the appropriate times. Sometimes I'd like to eat at odd times. Why can't I sleep in and have breakfast at 9:30? Why can't I have lunch at 3pm or dinner at 4pm? Amtrak's diner schedules force everyone to eat at almost the same time, then the diner closes for a couple of hours. Then there's another rush back to the diner for another feeding session. If Amtrak kept the diner open continuously from 7am to 7pm, then the passengers could eat when they were hungry, the diners could serve more passengers and they might be more efficient.
How necessary is the Boston section of the Lake Shore Limited? The Boston section departs BOS at 1155am and arrives in Albany at 535pm where it sits until 705pm, before it departs westbound. However, there is an Acela that departs BOS at 1115am, arriving in NYP at 245pm, in time to connect passengers to the LSL. Would the passengers from Boston prefer an Acela ride to NYP where they would have to transfer instead of the slow, one seat ride across western MA?
I'd prefer the ride across western MA for the scenery, but in a tighter budget Amtrak might save money by offering those passengers an Acela ride to NYP. The Boston cars could be serviced at Sunnyside, and NYP passengers would have the lounge car all the way from NY. Thruway bus service to Asheville connecting to the Carolinian, Crescent, and Silver Star is a no-brainer...wonder why Amtrak didn't propose it? And extending the Capitol limited to Orlando isn't exactly a new idea. Are there enough Superliners to go around? And that would make it necessary to equip the Palmetto with a diner and sleepers so it could be NYP,s second NY-MIA train. That might have to wait until the new single level cars come on line.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
If there ever were a candidate for a permanent replacement of a train with a Thruway bus, it has to be 448-449, Boston Lake Shore. However owing to political pressure, I think that service, however needless considering the ready alternates, is quite safe (come on volks, do you REALLY think Amtrak restored through cars out of the goodness of their heart?).
While an admitted exaggeration, it seems like the service is annulled more often than not. The route is tortuous for any train yet is CSX's only access for New England traffic (NS has a marketing arrangement with the B&M. I think the B&M has a more favorable profile, but far less on-line traffic sources). In view of that the rail alternate noted by Mr. Vincent is readily available, I have to concur with his thoughts over those of Mr. Nicholson's. However, I do note with concurrence and respect Mr. Nicholson's point regarding the cost savings from having to maintain Sleepers and LD train F&B at one less point.
If, let's say, the "pols' that leaned on Amtrak got "a Firehouse shellacking' on that Tuesday in November, and the political seas were again calm, Amtrak could consider whacking 448-449 and in its place offer Thruway service connecting with ALL Albany-Bufflao trains. Thus, greater benefit to the traveling public at large will be realized than is for those who choose to take what amounts to a scenic excursion.
Posted by DeeCT (Member # 3241) on :
GBN -
Amtrak did not restore the Boston to Albany section of the route - it has always run. They merely restored 1 sleeper car to it. I have to say it probably was more in response to passenger surveys than any Politician. What Politician that pulled off such a feat would then remain completely silent about it? Heck no - he/she would have been in South Station (with tv cameras to smile into) the day the through sleeper resumed. As for a "Bustitution" - no thank you. Convenience not Scenery means more to me - I have had the "Scenery" for 70 years.
Vincent - Your idea about Acela to NY is fine for those passengers that board in Boston - but what about those that board at stations along the route?
~~~~~~~~~~ After skim reading this report I found it interesting that each train has a "cleanliness" issue that needs to be addressed. (Has for many years). But I suspect that expecting current on board staff to address this is not going to happen. What would the additional cost to the passenger be to hire an outside contractor for Janitor services?
Dining cars - I know of no resturant that opens for 3 hours - closes for 3 hours - opens for 2 hours - closes for 3 hours - then reopens for 3 - 4 hours and stayed in business. Keep it open. While I recognize that this may require some additional staffing - would added sales be enough to offset that cost?
Cashless - go for it - Debit gift cards (Master Card and Visa) can be bought in nearly any supermarket these days why not have such sold by Amtrak (no Amtrak logo) - no need for Amtrak to refund balance since they can be used almost anywhere.
Lastly - what did this report cost? I hate to think that my next ticket will help to fund this or a future report that only gets filed away to gather dust.
Dee
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
quote:Originally posted by palmland: "Preliminary analysis also indicate that rerouting the Silver Star between Raleigh, North Carolina, and Columbia, South Carolina, via Charlotte and Greensboro, North Carolina, would produce significant additional ridership and reduce net operating losses."
Why not run directly down the ex-Southern main line to Charlotte and then on to Columbia SC and Florida?
Whether is should be day north end and night south end or night north end and day south end yet to be determined. Both, maybe??
Posted by Vincent206 (Member # 15447) on :
Dee, The connection from Springfield isn't as tight as it is from Boston, but I think a train ride from Springfield to NYP would work for LSL passengers. Framingham had a grand total of 2,131 on/offs in 2010. Pittsfield (7,979) and Worcester (7,398) had higher on/off totals, but those aren't numbers that couldn't be carried on an Ambus connection to Albany or Springfield.
The idea of keeping the diner open all day is to spread out the crush times. When all the customers are forced to eat at the same time, it is necessary to have a large crew working. If customers are allowed to eat at their leisure, the diner won't always be full, but the crew could also be smaller. It might be possible to serve more customers with fewer workers.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
quote:Originally posted by George Harris: Why not run directly down the ex-Southern main line to Charlotte and then on to Columbia SC and Florida?
Whether is should be day north end and night south end or night north end and day south end yet to be determined. Both, maybe??
Gets my vote. This would probably save the extra time required on the proposed route via Charlotte by eliminating the Richmond/Selma dogleg. You would trade off Richmond ridership, although they would still have the Meteor, for new customers in central Virginia that do not currently have any direct FL service.
A schedule that complements the Crescent/ Lynchburg trains' schedule might attract new riders - a daylight run between Washington and Charlotte.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
I would be delighted to see the Carolinian extended to Columbia (and a connection to the Silver Star established there). I think the NCDOT would be opposed to any plan that would end passenger service (albeit at inconvienent hours) to Southern Pines and Hamlet having invested heavily in restoring the former Seaboard depots in those communities.
Regardless, the former Southern Railway line between Charlotte and Columbia would need some pretty significant upgrading to handle a passenger train and I am told that the only decent option for connecting the NS line to CSX north of the Columbia Amtrak Station would mean taking the line through the corner of a cemetery.
Lots of delicate issues before the subject of whether South Carolina is willing to pay for any of this even enters the discussion.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
quote:Originally posted by George Harris: Why not run directly down the ex-Southern main line to Charlotte and then on to Columbia SC and Florida?
Bring back the Augusta Special, Mr. Harris?
That one was gone well before A-Day ending up, if I properly recall, as the Fort Mill Intrastate Special. But presuming that the existing track condition thereof and existing traffic levels would permit handling a passenger train, the largest drawback would be loss of Raleigh - the State Capital of a train friendly state.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
I dont' know David, it would seem to me that the Star picking up Greensboro and Charlotte are pretty good trade offs for losing Raleigh and the small towns of Southern Pines and Hamlet (A Piedmont connection and/or Thruway bus could take care of them) - not to mention my town of Camden. Presumably according to the PIP, no change in Carolinian.
While a connection on the north side of Columbia would be nice, don't see why its necessary considering the options downtown.
I happened to be working in SC the summer of the Fort Mill special. Saw it in the Southern station in Columbia - pretty sad, an FP-7 and a coach. But I didn't consider it a big deal as we still had 3 or 4 trains each way on the Seaboard. It was easy to rationalize in those days.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
The only train that will pass through Mark's Playpen or nowadays Nikki's Playground will be one that is Federally funded in its entirety.
As I noted earlier, these Plans do not provide for any additional route miles - it is simply acknowledgement that there will be none unless Local funding is on the table.
You can't have both Raleigh and Charlotte on a direct North-South (SRY or SAL) line. To serve them both with a through NY-Fla train, you'd end up with a gerrymandered route rising to the level of the Texas Eagle - and one of them in the System is quite enough!
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
Palmland - I agree with you that the ridership potential of serving Florida directly (with sleepers and diner) from Greensboro and Charlotte is greater than the ridership potential from Hamlet, Southern Pines, and Camden. In a perfect world I would love to see an additional New York-Florida train on this very routing.
The politics from both Carolinas make any such thing unlikely. South Carolina is as yet unwilling to contribute even a third of the cost of whatever trackwork is deemed neccessary.
The coup de grace here, as Mr. Norman points out, the more train-friendly North Carolina has a vested interest in the Silver Star continuing to trundle down the former Seaboard in the dark. Besides the money invested in retoring old depots, a rerouted Star would bypass Raleigh.
Political capitol has been invested in the Star on it's current route as well. Numerous politicians have proudly posed for pictures during the reopening ceremonies of the depots in Hamlet, Southern Pines, and most recently Cary. I would be shocked if the Star were ever rerouted through Charlotte. I could sooner envision it combined with the Meteor on the A line or even discontinued outright before it calls on Greensboro.
Perhaps in some enlightened future parallel universe, South Carolina chips in for some track work and agrees to subsidize an extension of the Carolinian from Charlotte to Columbia offering the citizens of Greensboro and Charlotte a cross-platform transfer to the Silver Star. Even this would require adding a house track at the Columbia Amshack..... and coming back to this real world, I can easily see opponents in powerful South Carolina places pointing out that South Carolina should not squander it's resources on something such as this when the citizens of North Carolina stand to reap greater benefit than South Carolinans.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
All very valid points David and you can be sure SC legislature will not contribute one penny to passenger rail in my lifetime. However, if there is smoke there must be fire, at least in Amtrak's world. Even though it may not make much sense to us, this was Amtrak's proposal, not some misguided railfan, to increase revenue and decrease costs.
I simply maintain that it could be done with minimal capital expense in Columbia with the caveat that we don't know what NS will want for their portion. Their line, as are all the mainlines for that road, appear to be in good shape. Who knows what would be required in the way of passing sidings.
Since the Star is entirely federally funded, I'm not sure how much NC gets to say about it, or would want to. Another LD train would now call at two of its largest cities including Greensboro that is arguably the best of the station restorations. But to GBN's point of its less than 'air line' routing similar to the TE, perhaps we could revive the unofficial name of some of the local trains in the southeast from days past - Chicken Bone Special.
By the way, good discussion - wish we had more like it.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
Palmland - one quick note prior to the start of a meeting -
Yes..... NS maintains their lines in supurb shape. I grimace at their demands for funds to improve the Salisbury-Asheville line to handle a passenger train...... yet their AVL-SAL line is in much better shape now than it was 35 years ago when Southern was operating passenger service.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman:
quote:Originally posted by George Harris: Why not run directly down the ex-Southern main line to Charlotte and then on to Columbia SC and Florida?
Bring back the Augusta Special, Mr. Harris?
That one was gone well before A-Day ending up, if I properly recall, as the Fort Mill Intrastate Special. But presuming that the existing track condition thereof and existing traffic levels would permit handling a passenger train, the largest drawback would be loss of Raleigh - the State Capital of a train friendly state.
More like bringing back the Charlotte section of the Skyline Special. This train ended in the early to mid 1950's. For those unfamiliar: It was an Asheville to Jacksonville train and a Charlotte to Jacksonville train that combined at Columbia SC. At that time, Southern had their own line south out of Columbia to Jesup GA where the train was combined with the Kansas City Florida Special for the rest of the run to Jacksonville. This route was considerably slower than the SAL line (now CSX) currently used by Amtrak. (At that time the KC-Fla Special left jacksonville with four or five pullmans: One each for Charlotte, Asheville, Atlanta, and Kansas City. During the winter season there would probably be one or two more to KC. Be sure you are in the right car.)
I will think about potential schedule a little later.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
quote:Originally posted by George Harris:
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: [qb]
More like bringing back the Charlotte section of the Skyline Special. This train ended in the early to mid 1950's. For those unfamiliar: It was an Asheville to Jacksonville train and a Charlotte to Jacksonville train that combined at Columbia SC. [/QUOTE]
Close Mr. Harris - the train you're thinking of was the SKYLAND SPECIAL named in honor of Asheville's self-proclaimed 'Land of the Sky' marketing tag. (To this day the local television station is WLOS)
In 1954 the southbound Skyland Special departed Asheville at 5:45pm (the Charlotte section at 7:55pm) and arrived in Columbia at 11:10pm. The combined trains continued southward at 11:30pm reaching Jacksonville at 7:30am, Daytona Beach on the FEC at 10:00am, West Palm Beach at 2:54pm, and Miami at 4:29pm or so..... I'm looking at a fuzzy condensed timetable on Flickr.
Northbound Miami departure was 1:00pm, Jacksonville at 9:20pm, Columbia arrival at 4:25am, Charlotte section in Charlotte at 7:55am, Asheville section arriving at 10:55am.
It's pretty telling in this pre-Mickey Mouse world that Orlando does not even show in the condensed timetable for the St. Petersburg section on SAL.....
However - as I eyeball the Rand-McNalley and contemplate another holiday drive down I-95 to visit the in-laws at Christmas, I really wish that I had the good old Skyland Special with a Pullman Bedroom departing Asheville at 5:45pm and depositing me at the Winter Park, FL platform about 10:30am the following morning as an option.
Yes - that dream would entail reopening Saluda Mountain BUT an active connection from the NS out of Spartanburg to the CSX north of the Columbia Amtrak station is already in place.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
Well as long as you're dreaming, David. How about making that an Auto Train. When we lived in FL, there was a real migration in the summer to the highlands of NC mountains. According to your schedule, a departure around 7PM from Sanford would not conflict with the Lorton train and have you into Asheville in time for lunch. With one set of equipment and one crew could probably have a couple round trips a week on a seasonal basis. Now that would be a train worth taking - even if you had to rent a car.
While the route of the Skyland Special is long since abandoned south of Columbia, as George notes, I had occasion to meet with a utility company in the small town of Hardeeville, SC. They were leasing a track that connected to the CSX mainline there and wanted to stage transformers for a new power plant in the county. The track went into town maybe a mile before the rails were pulled. It had fairly recently served an industry since closed. According to the trainmaster, he thought it had belonged to the Southern at one time and I do believe that was the route of the Skyland Special. George can correct me, but I don't think the Southern had their own line south, rather went on from there on the ACL via Nahunta, Jessup.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
Since you folks already know me as one who can get wrapped up in trivia pretty easily, I will add that one of the conditions the North Carolina Regulatory Agency placed on the Southern Railway when it allowed discontinuance of the tri-weekly Salisbury-Asheville passenger train in 1975 was that Southern continue to offer periodic half-day weekend excursion trains on the most scenic 30 miles between Asheville and Old Fort.
These trips, separate of the railroad's thriving steam excursion program, began in the fall of 1975 and lasted for a couple or three years thereafter. They were hauled by a pair of FP7 diesels (most often 6141 and 6133), had an open gondola with a roof, several coaches and a dome coach.
These short-lived excursion trains were also called 'The Skyland Special' and marketed with a 2-color (black and green ink) brochure printed on the same cardstock that Southern was using for their 1970's passenger train timetables.
A now departed railfan friend sniffed that this train, running on Old Fort Mountain instead of Saluda, was "an insult to the memory of the real Skyland Special"....
You know how railfans can be!
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
OK, I have a 1955 employee timetable for Southern's Columbia division that is available on Southern.Railfan.net. The Charlotte section of the Skyland Special was gone, but the Augusta Special was still there, so passenger running time between Charlotte and Columbia could be found. The times were quite slow. Charlotte to Columbia was 3 hours flat for 108.3 miles. Using Southern's own line, now abandoned, for 130 miles and ACL for the remaining 20 miles of their 150 miles between Columbia and Savannah was 4h00m southbound and 3h45m northbound. Between Savannah and Jacksonville, 157 miles all ACL, they took 3h45m southbound and 3h10m northbound. That time included 30 minutes southbound and 10 minutes northbound for combining/separating with the KC-Fla Special.
The current Amtrak time is 2.5 hours for the 148 miles between Savannah and Amtrak's out in the boondocks Jacksonville station. Between Columbia and Savannah on the old SAL line all the way, it is 136 miles and a 2h45m run time.
The Washington to Charlotte time for the Crescent is right at 8 hours.
The Southern's Charlotte to Columbia line had a 60 mph passenger train speed limit in 1955 with several 50 mph speed restrictions. Therefore, it is hard to under stand why a 36 mph average speed. I would have thought 2.5 hours, a 43 mph average, fairly practical given the limits at that time.
If we take the 3 hours as the right number, that would give a Crescent route to Charlotte, the NS line to Columbia, and the Silver Star route the rest of the way, that would give a Washington to Jacksonville run time of right at 16 hours. This is identical to the current Silver Star time.
Maybe we should not be thinking about a reroute of the star, but an entirely new train. How about something with an 8:00 am or so arrival from the north and an 8:00 to 9:00 pm departure to the north. It would be quite late getting into Miami, and early morning leaving, but times would be good in Orlando. The schedule could be flipped so as to give late evening arrivals southbound and early morning departures northbound at Columbia, giving an early morning arrival late evening departure at Orlando.
Surprised by what I found. I expected the times to be somewhat slower than the Silver Star. Of course, that is today's Star with the slower running and longer route than it had in the days of SAL or even early SCL operations.
Either schedule would seem a good bet. It would be either a day train or an overnight train between New York and Charlotte, which should draw a fairly good ridership.
If there was an Atlanta section, the overnight would be very similar to the original Crescent northbound with its early afternoon departure out of Atlanta and 8:00 am arrival in NYC.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
I've been giving some more thought to the idea of having a section of the Crescent doing a same day turn without going all the way to New Orleans.
Perhaps the section that turns could do so at Birmingham rather than Atlanta. Assuming that there is still an extra track in place at Birmingham, only slight adjustments to the Crescent's schedule would permit a 4-hour layover in Birmingham.
A sample consist leaving the northeast might be 2 diesel locomotives, baggage car, 3 amcoaches, amcafe, 3 viewliner sleepers, diner, an additional amcafe, and 3 more amcoaches.
At Birmingham one locomotive and everything from the 2nd sleeper back could be cutoff, turned and serviced departing northbound later that same day. The consist continuing to New Orleans would resemble the Cardinal..... one locomotive, baggage car, 3 coaches, amcafe, and a sleeper.
In periods of heavy traffic, two sleepers could continue to New Orleans instead of just one.
The additional cafe car would be a real convienence on a train with 6 coaches and it would mean that passengers in the more heavily populated Birmingham and Atlanta northward coaches would not have to walk through the sleepers to reach the otherwise lone cafe car.
Also, the notion of relying on a single food service car for part of the trip is more palatable if the diner is on long enough southbound to not have to rush the breakfast patrons out before Atlanta.
The cost of running an additional cafe car (and Birmingham swithcing) certainly would be more than offset by needing one fewer dining car crew and not laying the diner crews which remain overnight in New Orleans.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
Interesting idea, and not without precedent. Southern's train the Southerner had a schedule and route similar to today's Crescent. It was an excellent train complete with a diner, diner-lounge, and a tavern observation. The diner lounge and 2 sleepers were cut off in Atlanta. A third sleeper continued to Birmingham and the rest of the train continued to New Orleans as coach only (but with diner and observation).
So I think I'd prefer to have one or two sleepers cut off in Birmingham with the rest of the train continuing on - including one sleeper and diner. Having an amcafe for sleeping car passengers isn't very attractive to me. I guess the question is, how easy would the switching be in Birmingham as the station is on the former L&N (CSX) trackage.
Back to our wandering Silver Star. I believe the suggestion to essentially have two trains, even if the equipment continues through, makes sense. Market the Star for passengers from the northeast to the carolinas and the carolinas to Florida. Majority of through passengers would be routed on the Meteor that gets an upgrade like the EB.
Probably could be coach only NYP to Raleigh for the daylight portion with a diner and sleeper picked up there for the overnight to Florida. Raleigh switching could be done with the help of NC DOT at its passenger yard there. This would allow The Meteor to pick up another sleeper, maybe two, and possibly a second diner (or diner lounge).
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
In Birmingham Amtrak uses the platforms of the former L&N station..... a 'modern' late 50's early 60's kind of structure.
The main station stands empty and unused. Amtrak has an office and waiting room located in the tunnel area behind the original building. Passengers approach the train by climbing stairs to what was the platform furthest from the station. There is a track on both sides of the platform though only the 'outside' track is currently used by the Crescent. That one nearest one, which was still there in 2008, would be a great holding area for the laying over passenger cars.
Yes, this would mean that sleeping car passengers going on to New Orleans would be having lunch and supper from the tables on one end of the Amcafe..... but these passengers would presumably have had great meals for supper the night before and breakfast that morning.....
Just thinking.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Here is a photo of the L&N Station in Brimingham that was built during the '60's and which has been demolished:
That is one old station that will not be a big loss. We departed from there a couple years ago. Very grim. Hope the city carries through on their plans for a new intermodal center.
David, yes, one would be foolish to have dinner inbound to New Orleans, free food or not, when all manner of culinary delights await you in that city for a late dinner.
But, how about getting in the spirit of things with a wine bar/cocktails and hors d'oeuvres instead. A good bottle of wine might be the equivalent of the price of dinner. And after an early breakfast at Brennan's, the diner could offer bloody marys or mimosas on the return trip!
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
A pity that the L&N building in Birmingham is gone...... it could have been renovated into something.
Can't say that I'm quite able to refer to that building as 'old' though. Union Station in Louisville and in Nashville could rightfully be called the 'old' L&N station. Heck......I'm a product of the early 1960's and I don't consider myself 'old'.....not yet.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
I am with notelvis on this one. Can't be old. During my brief employment with the L&N it was considered new. At that time it served the Pan, the Bird, and the Wind. That is for those still looking forward to 60 or so instead of back at it, the Pan American, the Humming Bird, and the South Wind. By then locals 1 and 4 were gone. All these were still good trains at that time. Quite often the Wind came thorugh with either Pennsy or ACL units on it.
Now, the Nashville station, that one was old. The Montgomery station was old. Gulfport was old. Mobile, Biloxi and New Orleans were new.
Just looked up some information and pictures for a discussion on deep cuts / high fills. southern.railfan.net has most of Southern's Ties magazines scanned in. Found the issues that had lovely articles and pictures on the work done to improve the Rathole. Also found some relatively recent pictures of how this work looks now. Wait a minute!! It can't be nearly 50 years since this work was done. I considered it an outstanding example of modern railroad construction.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Here is additional historical information regarding the L&N Birmingham station and describing the grade separation project under which the present Amtrak "facility' is located:
Wasn't the 1960 Birmingham station the last passenger station built new by the L&N?
That alone, in my mind, would have been historically significant enough to warrant some degree of preservation.
I love that many early 1900's stations have been preserved for their historical significance but, sadly, some interesting 'modern' stations from the 1940's and 50's..... and stretching just barely into the 60's as in Birmingham's case.... are out there. It's a shame that there isn't yet much momentum to save those.
An example being the 'new' Burlington passenger station in LaCrosse, WI. It bore similarities to the still standing and used, more-or-less, stations in Burlington, IA and Ottumwa, IA. It sure would be nice to see those stations renovated from top to bottom and regarded as significant........ rather than just old.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
GBN - There is much of interest in the link you provided. I'm puzzled why the author didn't bother to finish researching the answers to these questions (copied and pasted directly from the website)?
After 1960, the story is still not clear to the author: When did the 1960 building stop being used?
When did the current ticket and waiting room become the only facility serving passengers?
What year did L & N stop providing passenger service?
What year did Amtrak begin serving Birmingham?
-------------------------------------------------
The answers are out there and I would imagine that the last two answers (May 1, 1971 & May 2, 1971 - remember, Birmingham was second day out so the last Pan American departing April 30 would not have arrived in Birmingham until May 1st) would seem to be pretty clear to most of the regulars on this forum.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Allow me to affirm Mr. Presley's point; any train that originated A-Day Eve (Apr 30) completed its journey. I for one, and back when I was far more an active railfan than I am today, was first at Davis Jct IL then at Streator IL to 'shoot' the "City of Everywhere' and the "San Francisco Chief' respectively on Sunday May 2. There were no 'tie 'er ups' at the first station after 1201A on A-Day (now what road dear to the heart of several here was quite adept at that practice?)
Monday May 3; be it assured CUS was simply an underused cavern; never mind Dearborn (the "one a day" predecessor to METRA's Southwest Service, the WAB/N&W Orland Park Local, began May 3 using a track to the West of Dearborn with facilities and a ticket cage inside a shack barely large enough for both).
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
Well gentleman, got to disagree on this one. While I am a lifelong fan of anything L&N, the 'old' modern L&N station at Birmingham has all the charm of a bus station for me. Reminds me somewhat of the Southern station in Charlotte.
But I guess preservationists will argue that it is a good example of that unfortunate architecture of the 50's-60's and for that reason alone it should be preserved. Just not my cup of tea. L&N's Mobile station, built several years earlier, was similar.
Now the Southern's Terminal station in Birmingham, that was worth preserving. According to Wikipedia -"Birmingham Terminal Station, completed in 1909, was the principal railway station for Birmingham, Alabama (USA) until the 1950s. It was demolished in 1969 and its loss still serves as a rallying image for local preservationists."
But, granted, any of the 50's stations are far better than the great majority of Amtrak's new versions of a train station. Suppose 50 years from now someone will be saying the Amstations should be preserved? And to that point, anyone have a favorite new Amtrak station? Certainly the ones with state involvement stand a far better chance of standing the test of time like the one proposed for Charleston. Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
The relatively new Albany-Renselaer, NY Amtrak station is pretty impressive.
I like the job the NCDOT did in converting an old tobacco warehouse into the 'new' Durham, NC station.
Gotta admit that there isn't much to love about those 70's amstations in Richmond, VA and Jacksonville, FL though.... or Cumberland, MD for that matter. Whether or not any of those warrants preservation will likely be left up to people younger than I.
Now I do wish that one of those mid-70's Amtrak SDP-40 diesels with the big red nose had been preserved.