posted
Apologies for the off-topic discussion but I know there are some airfans here. Continental flight 4 is advertised as MSY-IAH-LHR (in years gone by MSY-IAH-LGW). However, it's a B739 from MSY to IAH and a B777 IAH to LHR. So clearly it's not the same plane or flight at all. In fact you even have to change terminals at IAH. So what is the purpose of advertising such flights? Is there really such a market from LHR to MSY that makes this advertising worthwhile? Or some other reason why?
(For Mr. Norman's benefit, these are IATA codes as they're more obvious outside of the US to most passengers like myself)
sbalax Member # 2801
posted
Geoff--
The "inhouse" expert says it's mostly a marketing device. I bet you'd find that there is a comparable Delta flight that has a plane change in Atlanta but the same number all the way through.
You might or might not have to change terminals in Houston. Much depends on gate availability. The IAH-LHR flight would leave from Terminal E but it's possible that the MSY-IAH flight might also arrive there.
Leaving the US this is not much of a problem -- check your bag all the way through at MSY and, hopefully, you won't see it again until LHR. Returning, you would need to claim your bag at IAH, go through customs and then recheck it right outside the door. You then need to go through security again. If you have no checked luggage you get to skip that step.
Frank in sunny and warming SBA
BTW The pilots, at least in this country, are the only ones who concern themselves with the IACO codes. Their schedules are built using the IATA codes as are those for flight attendants. Internal communications also use the IATA codes.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
posted
quote:Originally posted by sbalax: BTW The pilots, at least in this country, are the only ones who concern themselves with the IACO codes. Their schedules are built using the IATA codes as are those for flight attendants. Internal communications also use the IATA codes.
Well, that is what my unit - 2106 Comm Sqdn - at Dover supported - the pilots; same with 1976 Comm Sq - Tan Son Nhut - where it was VVTS for us.
While at a topic such as this where we are addressing air transport matters, my other argument for use of the ICAO codes - namely when someone notes LAX, the question of "where does he mean; the airport or the train station" is moot, it is not so when we use IATA codes that are shared with Amtrak station codes.
Also, some ICAO codes are more descriptive than IATA; E(Europe)G(Great Britain)LL(London) tells me more of the location than does LHR. OK; LHR is a widely known IATA airport code. But let's try on London Stansted Airport (IATA: STN, ICAO: EGSS) for size.
smitty195 Member # 5102
posted
I've noticed that United does the same thing with flight numbers. You'll have an A320 take you from SEA to SFO, and then that exact same flight number will go from, say, SFO to NRT and it will be a 772 or 744 (and be at the International Terminal). I guess it's just a marketing thing because I've never figured out any other use for it.
And on the topic of planes and since the OP is from the UK.....There is a neat flight that I hope to someday make because it is so unique. British Airways has one flight a day (last time I checked) that flies from JFK to London City Airport (not Heathrow). The aircraft used is an A-319!! The cabin of this aircraft is 100% business class--no coach. So you can fly a transatlantic flight from JFK to the heart of London in a little A319. Sounds weird, but it's true! I would love to do that one someday.
smitty195 Member # 5102
posted
Just for the heck of it, I just checked BA's website. That daily flight is still available. British Airways flight #1 is LCY-JFK, and British Airways flight #2 is JFK-LCY. And the aircraft used is an A318----a really dinky plane for a transatlantic flight. Round trip is just under $5K.
sbalax Member # 2801
posted
Smitty--
I believe it's a tribute to Concorde. #1 and #2 were used for those flights. The big brass at BA felt that doing transatlantic from LCY was almost as revolutionary.
Pan Am used #1 and #2 for the Around the World Flights. I believe TWA did as well.
All--
There was an Airport Codes category on Jeopardy! tonight. I got all five although I've only been through four of the airports in the category. I was disappointed that the "Champions" missed SYD.
Frank in dark and cool and, they say, soon to be wet SBA
Geoff Mayo Member # 153
posted
Thanks for the answers. To me it's meaningless what number is used as I know it's a different plane and a trip into the terminal(s) is required regardless. If I didn't know and thought it was just a technical stop I think I'd actually be more annoyed that I was "fooled" - negative marketing!
I'm aware there are others but CO4 is a flight I've taken a few times (though the IAH-LGW segment only); I was looking recently for a trip to MSY that never materialised unfortunately and seeing it still there reminded me.
There used to be an all-business class flight (or even airline?) from STN to NYC (don't know which airport) but I think it went bankrupt when the fuel prices went silly.
LCY-JFK is an interesting flight. It's probably stretching an A318 to its limit, maybe with weight restrictions. LCY is a tiny airport with no room to expand, has a short runway with no parallel taxiway, closed on Sundays, and tough noise abatement regulations. The glidescope is somewhat steeper than normal so that and the noise abatement restricts what aircraft can use the airport. Taking off to the west involves a turn soon after take off to avoid "buzzing" Canary Wharf, a 50-storey building which is almost directly in line of the runway. But the airport is close to London.
ICAO codes outside of the US don't mean much to me, even though you could guess roughly where that airport is located - but ONLY if you know what each part of the code means which most people don't.
sbalax Member # 2801
posted
I believe the BA flight westbound from LCY makes a stop at Shannon for fuel but also for U.S. Customs and Immigration. That makes arrival in the U.S. much easier and a nice job for the CBP staff that handle that station. I know that Continental flights from Ireland work the same way -- U.S. Customs and Immigration are handled at that end.
Frank in cool and clear SBA -- but they say rain is on the way tonight.
George Harris Member # 2077
posted
During my first excursion in overseas work, Northwest had a flight with a through flight number between Memphis and Tokyo. It was listed as a 1 stop in the timetable folder and on the departure screen. However, you changed planes in Seattle.
In the same time frame, there was one true international non-stop in/out of Memphis, It was a Northwest/KLM flight to Amsterdam. It became quite popular as it avoided going through one of the major hassle airports.
Completely extraneous, but a few months back my son made a trip to Singapore. Through flight, and plane, out of Houston TX, with one intermediate stop: Moscow, Russia.
Geoff Mayo Member # 153
posted
Hmm, IAH-SIN direct goes over the Pacific as I would expect (using Great Circle Mapper), and IAH-DME-SIN goes over the Atlantic, of course. But the distances? 9930 the former and 11154 the latter - not as much difference as I thought!
Of course, the ultimate through flight numbers are the Kangaroo routes (LHR-BKK/SIN/HKG-SYD/MEL) and LHR-LAX-AKL. Not flights I would like to take in one sitting, as it were, unless I managed to turn left upon entering the aircraft or go upstairs.
The Shannon/Dublin pre-clearance facilities has a dubious advantage of being close to the UK, so anybody with an equally dubious immigration or criminal history wanting to visit the US and thinks they might get bounced back can go via Ireland and not have so far to rebound.
May 2001: upgraded on Virgin to Upper Class from economy (coach) via a friend who worked for a *different* airline (no more of that anymore). Land at JFK, first off the plane, on the airport bus within 15 minutes of the aircraft door opening! Those were the days.
smitty195 Member # 5102
posted
Virgin is a neat company. I would love to fly upper class with them to LHR just for the heck of it. But I don't have $15K to drop on something like that.
ehbowen Member # 4317
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From discussions I have seen on another forum, it seems that Singapore Airlines is making most of its money between Houston and Moscow on that flight; they hold traffic rights for IAH-DME and the route is especially attractive to those in the energy business. The DME-SIN segment is "just there to be there"; they wouldn't fly IAH-SIN nonstop even if they did have a plane with reliable 10000 mile range.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
posted
More off topic; one must wonder where the DOD comes up with these airlines used by Air Mobility Command for charters:
Oh well, at least the aircraft's livery looks attractive.
My personal experience with military charters is limited to SUU/KSUU-SGN/VVTS; Westward July '67 was on Frank's airline; return Jul '68 was on an outfit called Trans Caribbean that later merged with American.
sbalax Member # 2801
posted
Mr. Norman--
North American is a pretty well respected operation. Until 2008 the flew some regularly scheduled flights including LAX-JFK to complement EL Al's service JFK-TLV.
In 2008, one of their 757-200's operated as candidate Barack Obama's campaign aircraft. He has a bigger plane now.
Frank in sunny and cool SBA after a wet night.
P.S. You'll be happy to know that some of "the girls" who worked the MAC charters to Vietnam are still flying. They took the fathers to Vietnam and the sons and daughters to the Middle East.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
posted
quote:Originally posted by sbalax: You'll be happy to know that some of "the girls" who worked the MAC charters to Vietnam are still flying. They took the fathers to Vietnam and the sons and daughters to the Middle East.
OK; let's see. I was 25 when I went to 'Nam during '67. I'm now 70. I guess there are people working by choice my age and older - I'm just not one of them.
Finally, very pleased to learn that NA is a respectable carrier; our Heroes deserve nothing less.
Ocala Mike Member # 4657
posted
Being about the same age as Mr. Norman, and having served in the USAF contemporaneously with him, here are my experiences with military charters:
4/64 - NY (JFK) to San Antonio via Branniff. First jet trip for me; I was heading towards OTS at Lackland AFB (Medina Annex).
8/66 - Sea-Tac to Seoul (Kimpo) via Northwest ("red tail") and return in 9/67.
Overall, more positives than negatives.
George Harris Member # 2077
posted
And: while we are talking about military charters to/from that souteast asian vacation land:
My back and forths were in January out and late november back, the under one year due to a reduction in my obligated time due to a RIF. These were on a couple of different never-heard-of-them-before and hope-to-never-see-them-again charters.
The planes were 707's. The genereal suspicion was that they have been sold off by legitimate airlines as being too worn out to use in freight service.
The trip back was particularly fun. First we wint to the Tan Son Nhut terminal, wiated a while and then back to the holding company because the plane was sent to Manila for work. Then, when we got on they asked everybody their weight at the boottm of the stairs. maybe they did that on the way out, but I had other things on my mind at that time. Then, a one hour fueling stop turned into an eight hour stop for work on the plane. Then after a lift off which occurred after acceleration like a coal train and a run so long there was question whether there would be lift off at all, the pilot came on the intercom with a statement that will be engraved in my brain for life, "We will attempt a non-stop flight to Travis Air Force Base, California." He was successful. Still being here part of the evidence as there is a paucity of places to land between Japan and California. It helped me understand my grandmothers words about the homecoming of the men in my father's generation at eh end of WW2: We never counted them home safe until they walked in the door.
From Travis we went by bus to Oakland Army Depot for processing out, and I found the SP statin and finished my trip by train. Yes, this was the first year of Amtrak. The train was a combination of UP and SP equipment with Sp power which changed to UP power at Ogden. At Denver, the train length about doubled and we got CB&Q painted power.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
posted
May I relate my similar experiences, Mr. Harris?
Posted during 2001 at another site:
quote:My next trip on the SP was July 1968 Fairfield-Oakland. Having spent the past year over in "The Nam", and reading how railroad operated trains were in their death throes (TRAINS was in the Base Library, as were two day old New York Times and Wall Street Journals) "What will be left when I get back?". I had a year-old SP time table with me; I was off the bird [the TCA DC-8 noted earlier] at Travis and free to leave at 6AM: According to a TT I had, this was an "on-day" for a SB "Cascade" leaving Suisun-Fairfield at about 7AM. Cab driver knew where the station was (nice guy at that; I'll bet he got back to Travis in time to get an SFO fare). Well 7am comes and here comes the Cascade. The consist was still "healthy" and the triple unit "Cascade Club" was there. However, I was still in my Air Force uniform, and a lady sitting across from me at Breakfast called me a "baby killer", etc, etc. I knew we had lost the war.
My next ride Sacramento-Ogden (Oalkand-SAC had been on the Zephyr); I honestly cannot tell you much about, as I was asleep by Auburn and stayed so until raising the shade over Great Salt Lake.
Finally, I'd like to close with an important thought. Because my brothers hardly received a heroes welcome when returning, I will not begrudge any OIF/OEF veteran of the praise and recognition so rightly deserved.
I thank society for now recognizing that the 3M+ of us who served did not start that war; we were called and did what we were told - no different than Today's OIF/OEF campaigns.
George Harris Member # 2077
posted
Mr. Norman: I got the full "baby killer" screaming group welcome when I got off the plane at SFO coming from home to go to the Oakland Army Depon on my way going to Nam.
By the time I came back, it was worse. That, in addition to the plane ride back, had a lot to do with avoidance of airports on my way back and riding home in civies instead of uniform. That last in particular my parents' generation did not understand. They were welcomed home back from WW2.
I still tend to burn over this idiocy. A major reason why I have to carefully control my gag reflex when I hear Nancy Polosi and anybody that is willing to be in the same room with her or those of her mindset talk about their concern for the Iraq/Afganistan vets. Complete hypocricy!!! These guys (and gals) are at least in service because they choose to be. I and the majority of others in Nam had received a letter that gave us no choice. (unless, of course your name was Clinton and you somehow had a connection to a senator named Fulbright.
Ocala Mike Member # 4657
posted
George, I never experienced the "baby killer" epithets or any other form of disrespect back when I served in the mid-late 60's, and I never avoided wearing the uniform.
Have to say that the worst thing I remember is the cold-shoulder treatment I got from a fellow USAF officer at my last assignment, a SAC base in New Hampshire in 1968.
Seems this guy, my next door neighbor on base, resented the fact that he had to dodge SAM's being aimed at his B-52 during his "Arc Light" deployment to Nam, while I had an enviable desk job maintaining communications equipment stateside.
I guess bombing villages from 40,000 feet can do that to you. Glad I gave them my 4 years and no more.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
posted
Oh well, I guess Pease hosted at least one of the "other than an Officer and a Gentleman' types.
We both know that "rated" officers got the 'gravy"; non-rated, especially if RO's, got what was left. "Chickens" were about as far as they got before the RIF axe fell (maybe in the Army, an RO got Full Bird, and maybe, just maybe somewhere at some time, a Star - but I don't think the AF).
But let us leave with the message that whether we wore our grade on the shoulder or on the sleeves, we were called to do a not so nice job - and 99.99% of us did it as our oath called for - faithfully and loyally.
Somehow, I highly doubt if Mr. Harris, Mike, and myself were the only ones to have worn our country's uniform during the Viet-Nam era; on the eve of Veteran's Day, how about hearing from some others.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
posted
Speaking of airlines, looks like United has decided to upgrade the product offered to, what the Journal calls. "High Value" passengers:
United Continental Holdings Inc. on Thursday said it would makeover the business-class cabins on its international widebody planes and its elite airport lounges, its first major product upgrade in more than a decade.
Called “United Polaris,” the new long-haul business class will debut in December on a freshly delivered Boeing Co. 777-300ER plane. It will subsequently be rolled out on other new aircraft on order, including more 777-300ERs, Boeing 787-10s and Airbus Group SE A350-1000s.
United also said it would retrofit at least 100 double-aisle aircraft it already has in its fleet.
At their site, they have a "slick vid" of this "rollout". Have to wonder what "the troops in the trenches" think about this.
sbalax Member # 2801
posted
Wow, this message is a blast from the past! Seeing a question about a "CO" flight brought a small tear to our eyes here.
Gil--
The new product looks great. They are playing catchup with DL. The BusinessFirst product, which some say helped save Continental, is about 20 years old.
This will eliminate the much maligned backward facing seats on some UA wide bodies.
In the end, though, it will all depend on the training given to crew and their execution the product. Maybe it's time to have "Inflight Supervisors" or "Directors of Passenger Service" back on board -- Management in the Air.
Frank in foggy and cool SBA
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
posted
quote:Originally posted by sbalax: This will eliminate the much maligned backward facing seats on some UA wide bodies.
Sure wish I knew whose brilliant idea was. Seems like everyone else can have all seats facing forward, but not United.
Last year ORD-MUC, I had reserved on a 772, forward facing 6A, but then they pulled a switcheroo to a 762, where 6A faced Aft. I realize 99% of passengers could care less about "flightseeing", but I do. I get vertigo looking at where I've been. Only plus is to see that massive Pratt & Whitney so powerful if the other crapped on the roll, a safe takeoff could be made if IAS was at V1.
This year, again ORD-MUC, going over it is AFT facing 7A, return.is 6A. But I "keep checking" to see if 6A or 6K open.
sbalax Member # 2801
posted
You'll notice there has been no mention about seating in the back of the bus. On some of the new 777-300's it will be 3-4-3. Very tight.
Frank in sunny and warming SBA
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
posted
Frank, I remember asking Maureen about how do they expect the Attendants to get the carts down the asile; to which she said "they'll just have to buy new ones" (for that matter, how would a 5'1" 300 pounder get down the asile?).
So far as the back of the bus goes, my trips, just like on Amtrak, are discretionary. Same in both cases (overnight Sleeper or overseas Business) "no dough, no go!!!"
But could I be confronted with a compulsory overseas trip? At the moment no, but what if my Niece carried through with her perpetual "threat" to emigrate to Australia with her "Green Card" musician husband and two kids? I've said "I could well never see you again". But what if the call came she was seriously ill and wanted to see me before.....? What if the Business Class fare was simply more than I could sensibly commit? Would I be in the back of the bus? Of course I would! Would I, for whom houseguesting is "oh so last century", "surf couches"?, you bet I would!
Geoff Mayo Member # 153
posted
Necroposting! Only 5 years, not the longest I've seen. Funnily enough, when I saw the thread title, I thought "I've been on that flight a couple of times". Only after opening it did I realise I was the OP.
Looks like the equivalents to CO4 these days are: - UA97 (B788) - UA5 (B788) - UA880 (B763)
3-4-3 seating on 773? Emirates have been doing it for years, as have, I suspect, other airlines too. Been there, done that a couple of times, can't say I noticed really. That said, I just looked at a couple of random aircraft and the EK 773 has a seat width of 17" while the SQ A330 has a seat width of 19" so it probably is quite noticeable to some.
My next flight will be on a Norwegian Airlines low-cost flight from LAX to LGW on a B788. That may well be a story for another day... (17.2"; pitch 31-32")
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
posted
Well today, I learned what I propheized in my immediate is happening - my Niece and family are emigrating to Sydney, NSW AU come this August.
I knew it; I guess the same way I knew (and had it of record with my Mother and Father) that LBJ was not going to seek a second term during 1968.
She already is saying "come see us"; that's a $9K fare - and that is a "gotta think about it". Also at age 76 (what I'll be next year), will it be medically prudent to even consider it? For example by the time I'd be "delagged", it would be time to go home.
George Harris Member # 2077
posted
$9K??? Wow, surely that can be beaten. As to medically prudent? That you could best know for yourself. I will say that when we were working in Taiwan my mother made two round trips. The first Christmas 1990 (age 75) and May 1992 (age 77.) For the second if it involved significant walking we used a wheelchair, and if up more than a few steps being carried by my older two sons.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
posted
Mr.Harris, $9K; United ORD-SFO/SFO-SYD and return, Business Class. Acft: B789. Flight time (WW) 21hr.
sbalax Member # 2801
posted
Gil--
I know you're not a big fan of collecting miles but I found ORD-SYD-ORD in BusinessFirst (They haven't loaded "Polaris" yet.) for 140,000 miles RT in April 2017. Outgoing is ORD-SFO in Economy and Return is LAX-DEN-ORD in Economy. Both of those are certainly doable.
Frank in sunny and warmish SBA. No excuse to not have voted here!
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
posted
Frank, since overseas travel seems to have again become part of the routine after a 24 year hiatus (the 1990 trip was simply a "never again"), I probably should be more interested in collecting "miles" (or whatever the unit of measure will be named as the number earned becomes ever more disassociated with the distance traveled), but when I learn of an ORD-RNO Mileage+ trip being routed ORD-MSN-SUX-DEN/DEN-RNO, count me out.
I learn of "back of the bus horror stories" not only from the immediately linked material but also from a client who was "invited" by a Chinese vendor to "come on over on our yuan". He was stuck in a middle seat on a Chinese carrier with two guys either side who thought he was a good "pillow". He can well afford whatever class he wants, but it would have been "rude" to upgrade. He was also again "invited" by a Taiwanese vendor; this time (tactfully I'm sure) told them to "put your midget seat where the sun don't shine".
Maureen told me a tale when she was on break in the curtained seats on a 763, some Middle Eastern passenger pulled open the curtain, woke her up, demanded she move so this "lady" could get some sleep. Maureen is probably the most tactful gal I've ever known in this life, so who knows what she said (surely more tactful than even the "United Playbook" calls for) - nevermind what I would have said!!!
So all told, just like overnight on Amtrak where I don't think anyone here (Montana Jim seems to be MIA of late) would even think of Coach, I wouldn't think of same for discretionary overseas air travel. Until two days ago, a non-discretionary was a no way. But my Niece is 39, runs, does Yogi Bear stuff, and in good health.
palmland Member # 4344
posted
GBN,if you're feeling adventurous, take the Queen Elizabeth from San Francisco to Sydney. Offering a free balcony upgrade for $3100 with stops in South Pacific islands and New Zealand. That'll cure jet lag. And, I know a train that can get you to the San Francisco from Chicago.
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: Mr.Harris, $9K; United ORD-SFO/SFO-SYD and return, Business Class. Acft: B789. Flight time (WW) 21hr.
Ah, Business Class. That explains it. We were usually traveling Steerage. However, when on Taiwan HSR, since Evergreen was part of the JV we were, as part of our contract to use EVA for all company paid travel, and that included the annual home leave. For the trans-ocean they paid for Economy Deluxe, which was noticeably nicer than economy. Don't remember the price difference, but I think it worked out to EVA getting about the same dollars per square foot, or in local terms, NT per square meter. (By the way, the airline code for EVA was BR. Anybody remember Braniff?)
sbalax Member # 2801
posted
George--
Sorry, Braniff was BN. Back in the day I used to like watching "The Big Orange" AKA "747 Braniff Place" take off from HNL.
Frank in dark and cooling SBA
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
posted
Mr. Palmland, I rang up that Carnival Cunard branded cruise you referenced. While I must agree that the printed price is comparable to Business Class air transport, it's of course only for a passage as well as "three hots and a cot".
I'm sure I'd put on 20 lbs during such an adventure, and my shipboard account would be equal to the passage. The cruise lines once upon a time, or otherwise "back in my day" when I went on cruises, shared their "bounty" from untaxed alcohol with the passengers. "Ain't so no mo", I'm told; the price of a drink is comparable to that in any restaurant I'd go to ashore.
But after seeing my Sister in about ten days, and hopefully my Niece as well, I'll know more as to whether she REALLY is going through with what seems a drastic lifestyle change (but "staying out of it"). However, living overseas is nothing new with my Sister's family, as they did the "expat bit" '70-'89 (LHR, HKG), but that was with all the perks Goldman threw in.
posted