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Nice set of photos. I've got a couple of commments: we probably can't build grand structures like that any more; look how long it's taken to restore King St. Station in Seattle (10 years!) and it's a relatively modest building; "Strangers on a Train" was also shot at the Danbury, CT station. And the last quote from the NYT reminds me why my jaw always tightens when I read that rag!
Henry Kisor Member # 4776
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"We will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by the monuments we destroy."
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Absolutely stunning. The greatest terminals remaining today pale by comparison, don't they?
Geoff Mayo Member # 153
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Those photos remind me of my "local" station at Paddington. For 15 years one of the three massive room arches had a false ceiling along its entire length for safety reasons (falling glass onto commuters is never a popular option). At some point this year it was reopened - and it is incredible. It is rare that I look at something open mouthed, even more so to do it on every occasion since I've been there. There is a photo on this page but it does not do it justice at all: http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/12113.aspx
Let's hope they restore the other two spans, and lots more stations around the world get the same treatment.
Ocala Mike Member # 4657
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"Five architects banded together to form the Action Group for Better Architecture in New York (AGBANY). In August of 1962, after assembling a membership of 175 that included Jane Jacobs (close to victory in the battle to thwart Robert Moses and his plan for a Lower Manhattan Expressway, and fresh from publishing The Life and Death of Great American Cities) the group placed an ad in the NY Times..."
My first job with NY State was for an agency that Robert Moses created, the Jones Beach State Parkway Authority. I worked there from 1972-1978 at which time the agency was disbanded, followed in three years by the death of its creator. Mr. Moses eschewed "the sidewalks of New York" in favor of roads, bridges, tunnels, and parks in and to the suburbs. I'm sure his jaw would have tightened considerably too upon reading that NY Times editorial. He would never have been a rail or mass transit advocate.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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Random thoughts:
There is a "Mad Men" episode that addreses the "redevelopment" of Old Penn.
Mr. Mayo, I suppose the demolition of London Euston that I remember seeing on my first UK visit during 1960, was also considered an act of vandalism.
Geoff Mayo Member # 153
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quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: Mr. Mayo, I suppose the demolition of London Euston that I remember seeing on my first UK visit during 1960, was also considered an act of vandalism.
Indeed it was. Interestingly the owners of the office buildings out front have proposed recreating the famous arch as part of redevelopment plans for the area.
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Compare the cost and time it took to build the station and the connecting tunnels then compare it to today's government funded work projects.
George Harris Member # 2077
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Although I have spent most of my working life in design and construction of many things in the transportaiton world, mostly rail, I still cannot comprehend why it seems to invariably take longer to build something than it did 100 years ago.
I give as an example the three bridges across the Mississippi River at Memphis. These three bridges, opened in 1892, 1916, and 1949 consisting of, the first, one track with a planked roadway in the trackway, the second two tracks and cantilevered roadways, and the third a four lane roadway plus sidewalks. These three bridges are identical in overall length and in the pier positions and span lengths of the major spans. The oldest bridge was built in the lest time, 3 1/2 years. The second took slightly longer and the last one took near 5 years. The fourth bridge was built in the 1970's and took near 7 years.
Why?
All are still in service, and the railroad bridges, despite their ages do not have load restrictions.
The first bridge was a true pioneer, being the first bridge over the Lower River, yet took the least time.
ehbowen Member # 4317
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George—Two words: Union Labor.
Plus, you know, back then they had access to all kinds of high technology that we don't have today. I mean, where could we today find the kind of earthmoving, pile driving, metal working and heavy lifting equipment that they had access to back in 1892....
Just think how fast they could have built those bridges if they could have built them the same way the Egyptians built the pyramids...!
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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Today's New York Times outlines in an editorial a project of which I was previously unaware, but could only represent an improvement over existing conditions:
Pennsylvania Station, New York City’s underground monument to bad design and low ambitions, may be getting some work done. Newsday reported last week that a Los Angeles firm was drawing up plans to improve the station’s cramped, blighted corridors.
Once the report is delivered, and if the money is found — a big if — the station’s dungeon masters, Amtrak, New Jersey Transit and the Long Island Rail Road, would work together for the first time to make Manhattan’s most dismal gateway a little less so.
Even the best hopes for the project are, like the station itself, severely limited. There will be no knocking it down or moving Madison Square Garden, which lies atop Penn Station like a manhole cover. There is no chance of making it into a great space like its crosstown rival, Grand Central Terminal, or the giant post office across the street, where a separate project, Moynihan Station, is moving very slowly forward.
George Harris Member # 2077
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This one I love:
"Madison Square Garden, which lies atop Penn Station like a manhole cover."
sojourner Member # 3134
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Another irritation about Madison Square Garden: It isn't on Madison Square! There are still some fine old buildings around Madison Square, but Madison Square Garden is no longer one of them. The original one was, of course . . .
Jerome Nicholson Member # 3116
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Is it just me, or were there really no seats in the old Penn Station waiting room? Not even hard wooden ones? At least the current one has places where you can sit down!
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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Come to think of it, Mr. Nicholson, you may have a point. As one of the very few members here who regularly used "Old Penn', I can't recall where benches, if any, were located.
But, have you been overseas? Find me benches in any major terminal over there.
Geoff Mayo Member # 153
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quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: But, have you been overseas? Find me benches in any major terminal over there.
If you mean seating in general rather than specifically wooden benches, I don't think I've been to a major terminal that doesn't have any. London, Oslo, Paris, Barcelona, Rome, Brussels... all have seating. Maybe there's even a legal obligation to provide such in Europe for the elderly or infirm/handicapped.
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I'll certainly defer to you Mr. Mayo in view of that I haven't "been over" since 1990 - and I'm not placing any bets that I ever will again (for that trip made at age 49, I was "zombied for the duration" and when not, was counting days until I was "outta there'); however I can recall looking for seating at Frankfurt/Main Hbf and was unable to find any.
As far as going over at age 71, I have from time to time reviewed particulars for music tours that would catch festivals at Bonn, Salzburg, and Wien - including some Continental rail travel. Could I "swing it" (including single room supplememt), sure. But my metabolism and circadian rhythm? Not too sure on those anymore.
I best do as I've done for the past twenty years; confine my travel to that necessary to "keep friends friends and family family" (oh I guess the occasional Amtrak joyride if it looks like I'm not otherwise going to use Amtrak for a while).
Tanner929 Member # 3720
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Been away from the site for awhile, but I love the continued posting on the Old Penn. The original great train stations and terminals where built by corporations a mix of efficiency and marketing ego, New York City is littered with corporate headquarters though today they have different names or uses, find the American Standard Building to the south of The NY Library it's now a Hotel. I have seem the majority of the known pictures of Penn Station, what is always missing is the commuter levels, like Grand Central the photo's have always been centered on the upper level which the long distance trains resided. When Penn was "renovated" it seemed the drop in long distance travel was the reason why the whole place is cramped with the Amtrak still acting like the Broadway Limited is still boarding.
Railroad Bob Member # 3508
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quote:Originally posted by George Harris: This one I love:
"Madison Square Garden, which lies atop Penn Station like a manhole cover."
+1. And what is usually under a manhole cover- ? Sewers. While New Penn may not be quite that bad, it is a remarkably awful public space. The one time I transited through there for some westbound Amtrak train, I noticed the ceilings were rather low, giving the place a cramped and claustrophobic feel. Where were the "historical building preservationists" when we needed them to avert this disaster? I know- it was a different political climate, etc. Other cities lost their Grand Depots during that time frame- such as Galesburg, IL. Their incredible CB&Q edifice was secretly hit by a swinging two ton steel ball around 5 AM on a Sunday morning...forget the year. But nothing I can think of right now equaled losing Old Penn.
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