I realize the memberhip here is more directed towards the hobby of rail travel, than that of observing and recording railroad operations, i.e. railfanning. I think that both the depicted activities are analagous to the professional photographers that stalk celebrities and are otherwise known as the "Paparazzi". We of course all know, since August 31 1997, how tragic their activities, even if somehow within the law, can become.
But some activities within the railfan community, especially in the age where a wide array of electronic playthings are mass marketed, are now approaching that of the Paparazzi, even if such is not part of any commercial pursuit.
Quite honestly, even if I am not about to condone, I would have had some empathy had I learned someone in that CSX crew "clocked' that railfan for taking that video. That he subsequently posted it on You Tube only adds fuel to the fire.
But shall we discuss this issue here with our usual maturity and respect?
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
I confess I am mystified by the photo and the video, which seems guileless and harmless as well as quite interesting, but of course I cannot hear what was said to the videographer (and what the videographer said) during the encounter. What is the precise nature of the objection to the photo and video?
Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
GBN: I'm confused by this post and I don't understand what the topic is. Maybe I'm missing something here? I do see the photo in your link, and the photo has a caption that says the location is Bridesburg, PA. The YouTube video is from Depew, NY and from what I can gather, the video and the picture have nothing to do with each other.
Henry: In the video, there is nothing going on. It is a crew bringing in a freight train, and they stop, get out, and switch with a fresh crew. The outgoing crew tells the incoming crew that the dispatcher put them through several 10 MPH restrictions and he doesn't seem too happy about that. But it's just normal conversation between crews---I do not see or hear anything unusual happening.
What am I missing here???
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Obviously, I have difficulties with both. The only person that should be measuring train speed is a railroad Operating Officer in the performance of his duties. Others represent impersonators. Somehow, Mr. Smith, having been a LEO along the way, I doubt if you hold too high those who choose to dress up in costumes that resemble a Law Enforcement uniform wearing such away from a performance venue.
Regarding the video of the crew change at Depew NY (CSX train with BNSF power), I would be less than happy about having an amateur image recorder aiming a cam at me while on duty - or for that matter anywhere. Even back during the '70's, when I guess I could be considered an active railfan, I was very reluctant to take interior photos of either cars or stations. I once was with a guy who set up a tripod to photograph boarding and alighting passengers of a pre-Amtrak Santa Fe train at Joliet; that in my playbook was simply WRONG.
Just think, had there not been aggressive "Paparazzi", Princess Diama would in all certanty be alive today at age 50. But alas, I guess there is a market for photos of celebrities going about their lives, but I should defer to viewers of ET, Access, Extra, and TMZ for more on that point.
Finally, I wholly expected views to be expressed that are contrary to mine; I am also likely less of a "First Amendmentist" than are some around here.
Posted by train lady (Member # 3920) on :
Henry, according to the video it seems as if there are still 2 women working at Grand Junction (ala your original book)
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
Maybe this thread really has to do with the nature of privacy and what reasonable people can expect it to be.
I would object to someone coming into my house and taking photographs or videos without my assent. But if I'm out in public raking the leaves and my neighbor is recording me doing so, would I have a legitimate beef? I might of course wonder what my neighbor has in mind, and maybe be a little annoyed at his inexplicable curiosity into what I was doing.
But the neighbor would not be interfering with me or my activities.
If that photographer or videographer in the post were doing so, then the railroaders would of course be justified in objecting to their actions. But they're not, so far as I can tell.
Seems to me the fellow clocking the speed of the train is doing something interesting for himself and probably others. What harm is he doing, really? Doesn't seem to me that he's doing anything different from a passenger aboard a train clocking its speed with a GPS held up to the window. Or claiming to be anything other than what he appears to be.
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
Train Lady, the baggage agent at Glenwood Springs in 1991 is now the station agent (the original having retired). Don't know if the current baggage agent is male or female. I'll find that out when I go out there in March. I'll take their pictures, too--with, of course, their assent!
I don't *have* to ask, but these folks are my personal friends and I want to stay on good terms with them.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
My own opinion is that first ammendment was written by men that had unhappy experience with religious organizations that compelled compliance and attendance by force of law, and where saying the wrong thing about those in political power could result in fines or being on the wrong side of the jail door. It did not give people the right to scream in your face, camp out in public parks, record your private or work activities, etc.
In the position of these guys on the train crews, I would not want to see someone videoing me either. Once out there, it could be used to see if I had committed some rules violation and lead to some unpaid vacation.
Remember, when you hear some of the stories of some of the events of the past that included multiple bending and breaking of the rules, all involved in those activities are either retired or dead, and in many cases so is the railroad itself, so there is no one to penalize for those violations. Such is not the case now.
When taking or being in pictures on construction sites, my practice is to make sure that everyone is aware it is happening so that they can be sure to not be violating any rules. Simply being caught in the frame with your hardhat off to wipe sweat is not something you want to have to explain. In a still picture you do not know if the lid has been of for 5 seconds or 5 hours.
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
quote:Originally posted by George Harris: When taking or being in pictures on construction sites, my practice is to make sure that everyone is aware it is happening so that they can be sure to not be violating any rules. Simply being caught in the frame with your hardhat off to wipe sweat is not something you want to have to explain. In a still picture you do not know if the lid has been of for 5 seconds or 5 hours.
Reminds me of a story that appeared in newspapers regarding a "dangerous" train driver (engineer) who appeared to be reading a newspaper while at the controls. It was only after the damage had been done that a second picture emerged, taken a few seconds later, showing that not only was the "driver" in the rear cab and thus not driving at all, but was also folding said newspaper up to block a gap in the blinds where sunlight was filtering through.
If we're not allowed to take pictures or video of people working then there are precious few places in the world you can go to do that. Always somebody working somewhere. It's not the filming or photography that is the problem: it's the people misusing that "evidence" to get people into trouble deliberately - whether directly or indirectly.
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
Agreed, Geoff . . . except that if a photographer or videographer comes upon a worker or a group doing something that endangers others (or wastes their tax money), what is then the ethical thing to do?
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
I guess the problem there is whether you know that they are doing something wrong. For example, in George's example, perhaps a bricklayer carrying a pile of bricks (the word escapes me) and not wearing a hard hat is most definitely in the wrong; if he's just standing mid-scratch at the doors of the site office then it's less obvious. In my example, as the train was moving away with the driver at the rear, common sense would say it's probably not a problem but the individual involved decided to maliciously send it to national newspapers - who, of course, loved it.
Posted by chrisg (Member # 2488) on :
This is from Andy Smiith "smitty195" who is off line until he returns home.
"Can you just let them know that I understand now (I didn't understand it earlier when I posted my comment) and I will be back on the forum when I get home on Saturday from Las Vegas."
That is it.
Chris
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
A Hod, Mr. Mayo.
Now regarding your point of the Driver (Engineer; North America) handling a newspaper while sitting in the rear cab of a locomotive (most all European locomotives are bi-directional) is just an example of how material can be "twisted" to serve whatever objective someone chooses - and this has only been "doubled in Spades" in the Internet era.
The most vulgar incident coming to mind was how film director Michael Moore in his production "Farenheit 911' took a clip of news footage showing President Bush (he was in Florida listening to school children read) while he is first being told of the attack. Of course he was stunned, weren't you? But Moore made this serve his anti-Bush agenda with voice overs to the effect of "look at our bold and decisive leader'.
Some of my Bush-hating acquaintances ("he hates trains; we hate him" mentality) think it is superb filmaking, I think it absolutely vile.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: The most vulgar incident coming to mind was how film director Michael Moore in his production "Farenheit 911' took a clip of news footage showing President Bush (he was in Florida listening to school children read) while he is first being told of the attack. Of course he was stunned, weren't you? But Moore made this serve his anti-Bush agenda with voice overs to the effect of "look at our bold and decisive leader'.
Absolutely agree with you Mr. Norman. I think Bush did the right thing to not run out and get the kids unnecessarily upset.
I also completely agreed with Mr. Bush's decision to not go on the ground anywhere near the area affected by Katrina. Anyone who has ever seen the disruption and uproar that occurs, primarily due to security concerns, when a president is on the ground in tbe area would appreciate the correctness of his decision, even knowing that he would be roasted in the press by those that seem to have an almost pathological hatred for the man.
When you see a president visiting a disaster area anytime before well after the initial emergency crunch is passed you see someone grandstanding, not helping. He can learn all he really needs to know without setting foot on the ground. Taht is done for the photo op and no more.
Posted by RR4me (Member # 6052) on :
Had the video been footage from a security camera, would it have been less objectionable? I think it would be entirely different had any of the crews objected; they didn't appear to, and since it was likely sitting on a tripod filming, they had to know about it. I suspect we're all goign to have to get used to a lot more of this kind of discussion, given the technology developed, and what will be most important is the ability to tell if the context and content are "whole". Generally, I wouldn't be too upset to appear in a video like this, but the on-the-job issues may be harder to get folks to come to consensus. Around here, a big item somewhat related is the filming of the UC Davis policeman pepper spraying occupy protestors. Seems the video was quite useful in creatign an accurate picture of what transpired.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
Security camera recordings, fortunately or unfortunately, are part of life. However, some guy with time on his hands taking some video and then editing it to suit his objectives is another thing altogether. At least, with the security calmera you have the complete story, ar at least that part which falls within the range of the lens. Moore's video attack on Charlton Heston is one of the most despicible examples of what can be done with malicious editing.
I have seen the UC Davis pepper spray incident played over and over on the TV here. Yeah, it should not have been done, but it would be very interesting to see what happened just before, preferably as sevaral minutes straight through instead of a few seconds of the spray incident itself looped. What did happen just before the incident?
Posted by The Chief (Member # 2172) on :
OP still gets most news from the failing New York Times.
With 10-year-tidal wave of scores of alternate news and intel and info sources, traditional media mores are displaced and supplanted.
With gazillions of camera- and video-equipped smartphones, and digital imaging sources available, anyone/anything outside of their/its abode can be recorded.*
As far as speed measuring, anyone can clock anything they want, including trains. Good grief.
Like George ^ noted, "it's part of life." This is the age of parity. The toothpaste cannot be put back into the tube.
* Of course DHS and LEO under Patriot Act and ensuing trend may get involved if recording includes certain soft targets.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Mr. Chief, allow it to be noted that there are two "thumps on my porch" in the early morning. One of course is The Times that I have been reading since I was eight years old. However, the other is The Journal, which even post-Murdoch remains a respectable newspaper. I have been reading The Journal since college.
I think it safe assumption that the opposing "slants' of each publication will result in a balance as I formulate my views of public affairs. We should also note that my views regarding recording and imaging are formulated to great extent in that I do not own any portable electronic playthings other than a basic Jitterbug cell phone, on which my last originated call was on Friday after Thanx (and before that July 12).
Finally, lest one wonder, my admittedly anti-LD views (which to many such as Mr. Chief considering his reported location means anti-Amtrak) were largely formulated while I was with the industry 1970-81. "The sooner they do the taxpayers a favor and fold up is all the better for us" was how the indoctrination, shall we say, 'landed on me".
Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
I'm back!
I have been away in Las Vegas all week (Nascar Champion's Week), and for the first time ever, I traveled without my laptop. Instead, I brought my new iPad because it can do almost everything that my laptop can do. However, all of my passwords are kept in a locked folder on my computers---but not on my iPad. Whoops! Traveling with the new iPad was great, but I realized that there are a few things that I really need my laptop for. Oh well---it was a good idea. (BTW, my forum password was generated by this website; it was not something I selected, and that's why I didn't know it and could not logon this whole time).
Anywho, just wanted to explain what happened and why Chris posted my message for me. Thanks Chris!
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
Smitty, I've been struggling with iPad v. laptop too. I've about convinced myself the iPad will do it all, so I'm interested in hearing your reservations about it. I think what convinced me is Apple's iCloud where all your stuff (video, music, documents) will instantly be available on all your e-gadgets. The portability of an iPad is pretty compelling, as is its snapshot capability and it makes a good e-reader too, somthing that's awkward on a computer. All of which means no more lugging books (and timetables!), cameras (unless you want serious photography), ipods, CD's etc.
Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
palmland: Overall, I was very happy with the iPad. I have mine in a leather case, and when you open it up there is a small bluetooth keyboard. I have found that having this "real" keyboard is vital for writing emails or memos. The virtual screen does the job well, but for me it takes much longer.
The one major shortcoming that I found is what will probably prevent me from ever leaving my laptop at home again, and that is the fact that the iPad is not capable of doing "Back To My Mac". This was a thing through "me dot com", which is now a part of iCloud. What it does is that it allows me to connect to my computer at home and take over the screen. So with Back To My Mac, not only do I have my laptop with me, but it's also like bringing my desktop (iMac) with me as well. The reason I need control of my iMac while I'm away is because I like to enter all of my transactions into Quicken on a daily basis (as opposed to hanging onto every receipt, and then entering them in when I get home). Also, it gives me access to controlling my webcams. I use "iCam" (available in the App Store for $1.99) to keep an eye on my house and my cat while I'm away. I can turn the recording mode on and off, adjust the sensitivity, and play back prior motion events. I also have a folder on my iMac that contains passwords for everything I use on the internet. Once I got to Vegas, I wanted to post something onto this thread but I was unable to because I have no idea what my password is. But since I did not have the capability to use Back To My Mac, I was stuck.
So if Apple is able to come up with a way for the iPad to use that feature, then I will be able to leave my laptop at home. But until then, I'm going to have to resume taking my laptop with me. There were times where I felt lost without it.
Ah, one more thing.....I had my iPad and iPhone 4S with me, and whenever I check email, it does NOT remove it from the server. I only allow my iMac and MacBook Pro to do that. So what that means is that I have to download the same exact emails on BOTH devices. So if I wake up in the morning and check my email and there are 35 emails, I can go through them all and delete them. But then when I pick up my iPhone and check email, it's going to download the exact same 35 emails all over again. When I got home yesterday and turned on email on my iMac, it downloaded almost 900 emails that had been sitting on the server since Tuesday. I suppose I could reconfigure my Mail settings on my iPad to "delete from server", but I didn't want to mess with it.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
thanks Smitty, sounds like your needs are more advanced than mine. I do like the blue tooth keyboard idea - but then it begins to look more like a laptop.
Posted by sbalax (Member # 2801) on :
We thought we'd need a keyboard for the iPad as well. We even bought an inexpensive bluetooth model. After a bit of practice neither of us found that we needed it. For our needs the iPad and the iPhones are going to be the only electronics we take on trips. (That said, I just bought a new MacBook Pro. It's wonderful and so much faster than the old laptop we had.
The only problem I had with the transition was trying to use wi-fi to "migrate" data from the old to the new. Even Apple's very helpful techs couldn't make it work in a reasonable amount of time. I ended up using an ethernet cable and that took about three hours. (Lots of pictures!)
It's interesting that the pilots of the "new" United will be issued iPads to replace about 40 pounds of stuff they now carry in their flight bags. The F/A's were hoping for something similar. Instead they got a new FAOM (Flight Attendant Operations Manual) that is so big it comes with a handle and really could use wheels! (Current UA FA's like it, though, because it replaces two binders they used to carry. Current CO FA's not so much because their old one was smaller and lighter.)
Frank in dark and cool SBA
Vicki and Art are at sea having left Funchal, Madeira yesterday headed to Half Moon Cay on the 11th and FLL on the 12th.
Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
Hmmm, it's interesting to hear that Apple recommended doing your data migration from the old laptop to the new laptop wirelessly. Maybe this is something new, but in my 26 years of owning just about every Apple product ever made, I have never attempted a wireless data migration. That's just way too much info to complete wirelessly. For example, I use Apple's "Time Capsule" as both my Wifi unit and my backup hard drive (using Apple's "Time Machine" software). When you do the very first wireless backup, it takes about 8 to 10 hours for everything to be copied over to Time Capsule. Subsequent backups on the hour only take a minute or two. But the initial backup I would guess is very similar to doing a data migration to a new computer, and if that were to be attempted, I'm sure it would take at least that long. I'm just thinking here...my newest computer is my MacBook Pro which I bought in April of this year. When I did the data migration, the "Migration Assistant" software never offered a wireless option. It was a FireWire to FireWire connection. If you don't mind, Frank, can you let me know how they suggested doing the migration wirelessly?
Regarding the iPad use on UAL, Virgin America has been using them since day one (which is about 4 years now). A pilot showed it to me on one of my first flights with them. It's incredible how much information is contained in a single iPad, especially when compared to all of the books, charts, approach plates, airport diagrams, etc, that they once had to lug around.
Posted by sbalax (Member # 2801) on :
Smitty--
It is one of the choices on "Migration Assistant". It might be something that came with Lion 10.7.2.
Royal Caribbean is putting an iPad in each cabin on Splendour of the Seas during its refitting. I'm not clear about how they will prevent them from "growing legs" but it's an interesting idea.
I think you have your time frame wrong. The original iPad didn't go on sale until April, 2010 so Virgin America probably didn't get them until after that.
Frank in cool and clear SBA
Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
Ah okay, when I bought my latest laptop the software being used was Snow Leopard (10.6.8). I should say that I'm not really surprised that there are issues with wireless migration because Lion has been a real disappointment. It seems to be doing okay now (finally), but I made the mistake of downloading it the first hour it became available. Definitely the most buggy software that Apple has ever released. I'm still having issues, but nowhere near the problems I had the first few months.
You are obviously correct about the iPad--wow, my memory is off. I could have sworn they've been using it for several years now, but that can't be possible. Thanks for the correction.
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