I was asked these questions and have no answers; wonder if any of you might: -is it better to link up with the Grand Canyon RR when traveling westbound or eastbound on the SW Chief? -what is that business with Williams Junction vs Williams, and the shuttle between them? Does it operate smoothly if the SW Chief is late? -Is waiting for a late SW Chief at Williams Junction a problem? -where should one stay (hopefully inexpensively)?is it possible not to stay overnight here but stay in Flagstaff instead and still take the Grand Canyon railroad both ways (without any cars involved)--i.e., by taking some sort of shuttle from Flagstaff? -is late April OK for doing this, or will the weather still be too snowy?
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Ms. Sojourner, the website shows an itinerary LA to Grand Canyon, complete with through ticketing and a transfer bus Williams Jct to Williams, however, nothing is returned for a Westbound itinerary. Therefore, it would appear that most connections are made with Eastbound #4.
If traveling Westbound on #3, you will have to use the transfer bus to Williams, arrange lodging, then board Grand Canyon RY next morning. So far as ticketing goes, you should be able to "force" an itinerary into the multiple segments page as an interline arrangement appears to be in effect.
Williams Jct is nothing - not even an Amshack. It came about during the '60's when the ATSF completed a major line relocation in that area bypassing Williams.
Regarding Hotels, Holiday Inn has two properties, Express and full service, there, but during high season, don't expect any bargains. If you're into "historic" hotels (be it assured I'm not; especially after my April 2010 experience at Cheyenne), there is one such called the Grand Canyon Hotel. Additionally, several "econobrand" chains are there as well. Proximity of any to the GCRY train station, I know not.
Posted by ehbowen (Member # 4317) on :
Sojourner and Gil, I have taken the GCRR not too long ago. The Grand Canyon Railway Hotel (operated by Xanterra, which operates all of the G.C. Nat'l Park ex-Fred Harvey lodges) sends its shuttle van to meet ALL trains, both westbound and eastbound. Emphasis all; they don't want to miss any passengers who might decide to make a stopover at the last minute.
More Later...
Posted by ehbowen (Member # 4317) on :
Back. The Grand Canyon Railway as developed by Max & Thelma Biegart and now executed by Xanterra is an integrated operation. They pick you up at the Amtrak station, put you up in their hotel, feed you at their restaurant, and put you on their train to the South Rim, where the shops and hotels are all operated by (you guessed it) Xanterra. Even so, I highly recommend them for a fun excursion. Every bit of their operation is well thought out and classy.
Whether you arrive by auto or by Amtrak, the Grand Canyon Railway hotel is an inviting place to stay. It is modern and comfortable with all the amenities including a bar/lounge and indoor swimming pool. And yes, they do pick up passengers from all trains; the reason that no connection or through ticketing is shown from #3 is that it requires an overnight stay, thus Amtrak does not see it as a valid connection. Once you check in at the hotel (assuming you have purchased one of their packages—recommended) you are given your meal coupons for the restaurant. Memory may be faulty but I believe you pick up your GCRR train tickets at the Williams depot; it is right next door. Meals at the dining hall are buffet style all-you-can-eat; the food is simple but good. If you are departing on #4 in the early AM the hotel will give you a danish and coffee before you depart. There are other options in downtown Williams across the tracks; the town is eminently walkable. Just make sure you keep off the BNSF tracks; while the transcontinental mainline has been realigned to the north the old trackage is still the main line to and from Phoenix, and it's busy. If you are a train watcher you will find plenty of action.
Before the train departs for the Canyon there is a "wild west show" which is mildly entertaining, as well as strolling musicians. Board early—individual seats are not reserved; within a class of service you scrum for seating. The lowest class of service (Coach Class) is one that I do not plan to ride again; the cars are converted commuter coaches with Torquemada seats which would be fine for a thirty minute commute...but for two hours plus? No, thanks. "First Class" is comparable to what you would find on a long distance Amtrak coach with comfortable reclining seats and adequate seat pitch and, while the seats are smaller, the dome observation seats are wonderful. Sodas are complimentary during the train ride; the better classes of service have better quality snacks and refreshments. [ETA: Just checked the website. Sodas WERE complimentary when I rode, but now they must be purchased in Coach class. In premium classes they are still complimentary.]
The Northern Arizona plateau is not particularly scenic but there are onboard diversions; the entertainers come aboard the train and perform during the journey. Bring money for tips. As usual in a tourist setting, everyone has his or her hand out. At the Canyon rim you may take a motorcoach tour or simply walk through the Village. You may also (by prior arrangement) stay in one of Xanterra's hotels at the Rim for a night or two; if you choose this option then your luggage will be sent up from Williams by truck. Xanterra sells GCRR packages with train fare and Canyon accommodations included but be advised that the package rooms are usually at the Maswik Lodge, which has all the charm and ambiance of a mid-60's Holiday Inn. If the budget will permit and if they haven't been booked up eighteen months in advance as they usually are then try to score a room at the classic El Tovar Hotel or Bright Angel Lodge.
On the return trip the "Wild West" gunmen stage a "train robbery" which is a thinly disguised solicitation for tips. Still, they do make the ride more enjoyable, so do carry some small bills to make them happy.
Once again, I do strongly recommend this excursion. Have a great time!
Posted by ehbowen (Member # 4317) on :
quote:Originally posted by sojourner: I was asked these questions and have no answers; wonder if any of you might: -is it better to link up with the Grand Canyon RR when traveling westbound or eastbound on the SW Chief? -what is that business with Williams Junction vs Williams, and the shuttle between them? Does it operate smoothly if the SW Chief is late? -Is waiting for a late SW Chief at Williams Junction a problem? -where should one stay (hopefully inexpensively)?is it possible not to stay overnight here but stay in Flagstaff instead and still take the Grand Canyon railroad both ways (without any cars involved)--i.e., by taking some sort of shuttle from Flagstaff? -is late April OK for doing this, or will the weather still be too snowy?
I realize that I rambled. Let me try to answer your questions specifically and concisely.
1. Doesn't matter, except that you will have to stay an extra night if you arrive from the east and depart back to the east.
2. The original line went directly through Williams stopping at the current GCRR Williams depot. However, the transcontinental mainline has been rerouted around Williams. Williams Junction is the nearest point to town where it was feasible to build a station on the new line. The GCRR hotel sends its shuttle to meet all trains. It will wait for late trains. The shuttle will transport you and your luggage directly to and from the hotel.
3. Again, the hotel shuttle will wait for late trains.
4. While there are other choices in town, I do recommend the GCRR hotel. There is no shuttle from Flagstaff which would allow you to catch the GCRR train. [Correction: After looking around, I did find a Flagstaff shuttle: Open Road Tours of Flagstaff.]
5. There may be some late snow, but the weather in April should be good. Unlike the North Rim, the South Rim of the Grand Canyon is open to tourists year-round.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
What Eric said!
Posted by ehbowen (Member # 4317) on :
And yet one more correction. Now that I think about it seating IS reserved by number; the "scrum for seats" was a different train. There was also (on this train) a mad dash for the one empty (two empties together) seat once the conductor called "All aboard" and it became obvious that we were leaving with a vacant seat. I won; we happened to have been sitting right across the aisle from it.
Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
That's really great info to know about the GCRR and the various packages. Thanks for posting all of this information. I have never stopped to look at the Grand Canyon before--I've driven by it twice, but due to circumstances beyond my control, I was unable to go take a lookie. Taking the train to the canyon sounds great! The one thing I would be a little afraid of is taking this trip during the peak summer months. I've heard that there are tons and tons of crumb crunchers (kids) running around and things can get rather hectic.
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
Hey, Smitty, maybe we can just tell the scruffy urchins that there are tons and tons of ex-cops around the Canyon and then see what happens.
Posted by sbalax (Member # 2801) on :
AAA has some very good packages -- or at least they did -- for doing this. The one we did included the hotel, meals, train up to the canyon and back, bus tour there and lunch. It also included reduced price upgrades on the train and lots of coupons for the gift shop, etc.
If you have time, I would suggest doing at least one night AT the Canyon.
Frank in sunny but cool SBA
Posted by sojourner (Member # 3134) on :
Thanks so much for all your help! This is definitely one of the possible trips my friend and I are considering.
Posted by ehbowen (Member # 4317) on :
quote:Originally posted by smitty195: Taking the train to the canyon sounds great! The one thing I would be a little afraid of is taking this trip during the peak summer months. I've heard that there are tons and tons of crumb crunchers (kids) running around and things can get rather hectic.
If you are going to the Canyon during the peak summer months, TAKE THE TRAIN! That is, unless your idea of fun is spending two hours driving around looking for a parking place which ends up to be a half mile from your intended destination. If you spring for premium class service you will avoid 90% of the crumb crunchers; indeed, kids under 15 are not even permitted in Dome or Parlor class accommodations.
Posted by Southwest Chief (Member # 1227) on :
A little more history on Williams Junction:
Williams Junction came about in 1960 when the Santa Fe rerouted a major section of its double track mainline through northern Arizona. One of the last, if not the last major line changes in the US.
The original routing was a separated double track line with difficult grades, tight curves, and the Johnson Canyon tunnel. This section created bottlenecks on the railroad. The new line (called the Crookton Cutoff) was a modern double track line with minimal grading and signaled for 90mph running in any direction. Amtrak still runs at 90mph through this section of the route.
A great film about this line change can be seen on the Youtube link below:
This mainline change bypassed Williams, but the track through the city of Williams was kept as the connector to the Phoenix line. The connection from the Phoenix line to the mainline was made at Williams Junction (why it's called a Junction). Since the mainline bypassed Williams and its depot, a new modern depot was built at Williams Junction.
The depot at Williams Junction was built mainly for the connection to the Grand Canyon branch which heads north out of Williams.
But when the Santa Fe ended passenger service and with no trains continuing to the Grand Canyon under Amtrak, the depot at Williams Junction was no longer needed. It was torn down in 1984.
Then, before the rails to the Grand Canyon were to be scrapped, the Grand Canyon Railroad (GCR) came about. And by 1989, train service to the Grand Canyon resumed.
Since Amtrak was running the daily Southwest Chief, the GCR thought about reopening a stop at Williams Junction to have a rail connection to the rest of the country. While no depot was built, a new concrete pad, some lights, and a sign were added. Also some minor road improvements were made to the road that goes to Williams Junction.
The GCR always has a shuttle bus there to meet the train, and they will be there whenever the train arrives no matter what time that may be.
Posted by dcfan (Member # 2311) on :
I have been to the Canyon twice, both times were in April using Amtrak to Flagstaff and a rental car. The days are warm, nights cool and crowds minimal. On the second trip I was able to reserve a cabin at Bright Angel Lodge - a great value.
I have not taken GCR, but during the last visit in 2003 we saw the American Orient Express consist at Grand Canyon. Enjoy your trip.
Wesley
Posted by DeeCT (Member # 3241) on :
Sojourner,
Grand Canyon should be on everyone's bucket list. (I am terrified of heights - but found a wonderful gift shop that is built out over the edge of the canyon that has above the waist high picture windows that allow you to get an incredible view of the canyon in both directions.)
Going west and then continue west or going east and then continue east will require a one night stay. Any other combo I would check on.
The shuttle buses are totally reliable. (They are dispatched by the hotel who's lobby makes a wonderful "waiting room". The desk there receives a phone call from Amtrak when the train passes certain points on the line that allows sufficient time to load passengers and make the ten minute shuttle trip with time to spare). The hotel seems very nice, clean etc.(I stay at my brother's less than an hour away - also nice, clean and free for me.)
I have never taken the Grand Canyon Railway trip. Passengers during the shuttle ride have made positive comments about the trip and "show" riding out to the canyon.
You might also contact the Chamber of Commerce in Flagstaff, AZ and see if they have a local Day trip agency (something along the lines of Grey Line). There are other places to see in the area and at one time there was such but do not know if there still is.
Dee
Posted by Mike Smith (Member # 447) on :
Smitty, as an FYI...
The Grand Canon is a really big ditch (it is bigger than what you think). You should see it.
I plan on a week's stay at the Tovar when I win the Lotto.