Competition for Amtrak or just some kind of posturing for the eventuality of Amtrak running over FEC ROW?
Can't see how this could possibly be rolled out in 2014, anyway. At least it's consistent with the mantra, "Trains. Everywhere."
SilverStar092 Member # 2652
posted
This is extremely interesting and I'm glad to see that FEC has taken a pro-passenger train approach of late. This seems rather far-fetched, though, as building a line from Cocoa to Orlando would take tons of money, right-of-way and environmental studies. In fact, this was proposed before by the founder of the original AutoTrain when he launched the short-lived Florida Fun Train. However, I would be hopeful for some kind of Miami to Jacksonville service on FEC. It would be interesting if the railroad that axed service in the 1960s and never joined Amtrak ended up running their own trains.
irishchieftain Member # 1473
posted
All our manufacturing industry got regulated and taxed out of the country, so if this can make a go of it without the FRA smothering it under its 3,000-mile-wide pillow, it'd be miraculous.
notelvis Member # 3071
posted
Hmnnnn...... curiouser and curiouser.
Vincent206 Member # 15447
posted
240 miles in 3 hours--that's an HSR operation in North America. Maybe Scott Walker has a trainset or two to offer.
irishchieftain Member # 1473
posted
At an 80-mph average speed, it could be defined as such. However, there used to be passenger service traveling at close to that average speed in the steam era.
George Harris Member # 2077
posted
quote:Originally posted by irishchieftain: At an 80-mph average speed, it could be defined as such. However, there used to be passenger service traveling at close to that average speed in the steam era.
Unfortunately, not end to end. Thrre were quite a few segments, and some trains that got to end to end averages of 60 mph, butnot much more than that. Considering that the Dallas-Houston was one of these, I would think that we could get to a 3 hour Dallas-Houston service for little more than rail, ties, an upgraded signal system, and a 110 mph speed limit.
However, the Florida East Coast trains were never in the list of the high speed trains. Again, that was as much Flagler as the possibilities of the alignment. The whole point of FEC passenger service was to be a distribution method for the Yankee Tourists. (Unfortunately, too many of these chose to stay and vote.)
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
posted
For ready reference to TRAINS (and other rail related Kalmbach publications) subscribers, here is Newswire coverage:
Still I must wonder, even though credible news-sources (beyond one I reviewed where some Cub reported "Amtrak stopped running trains over the FEC in 1968") have reported this story, is this for real? Is the end game to operate passenger trains for FEC's own account or is it something other, such as stir up public sentiment and get public funding.
A major rail union, U2, posted an article at their site suggesting that was an initiative for some "union busting". I posted here a link to such, but it now appears that article has been withdrawn and, accordingly, I withdrew the posting.
There remains no mention of this proposal at either Ry's or Industries' websites.
I guess what I'm leading to is, that while I believe the chance is small, there remains some possibility this whole thing is a HOAX. But I believe there is even a lesser chance that passenger service over the FEC for their own account will ever turn a wheel (I give Amtrak service over FEC a 50-50).
Ocala Mike Member # 4657
posted
Doubt that it's a HOAX, but probably more of a PLOY. For what purpose(s) remains to be seen.
Just two pieces of copper in my pocket doing the talkin'
palmland Member # 4344
posted
When I saw that the FEC hired Gene Skoropowski as VP Passenger Development (he formerly headed the very successful Caltrain Capitol Corridor Services) it seemed that there must be something more to this than adding a section of the Star on their railroad.
Whatever their utlimate goal, this is encouraging for passenger service in the sunshine state. On my recent FL trip, the railroad appears to be in excellent shape (I was in the Melbourne area) with the old double track right of way still intact. And, to speculate, the drive back to Orlando was on the Highway 528 toll road that originates in Cocoa (and passes close to Orlando Int'l airport). It appears to have adequate right of way for a railroad. Yes, I know there are lots of reasons why this will not work. But, I give them better odds than a project launched by the government.
Vincent206 Member # 15447
posted
Oh! If Gene Skoropowski is involved, it's for real.
Volks, we should note that, to use a Gordon Gekko term, the FEC is "in play'. The owners wish to sell; if not within the private sector, then to a public agency.
From the 2010 Annual Report available through the immediate link, one can see that the FEC made some $43M from railroad operations during 2010. However, owing to the "leveraged buyout" debt on which the debt service cost is some $66M, FEC had a Net Loss of some $23M. You could say they are on the same track with the Government owned Canadian National of thirty years ago.
Possibly the only sale, given the bleak earnings outlook (owing to the very top heavy debt/equity ratio and not from any inability by management to operate the railroad in an economic and efficient manner), is to a public agency. What better way would there be to get "man on the street" support than to tout "we will give you some trains - and you won't have to pay for them unless you choose to ride'. Politicians since the Roman Empire have bemused the Proletariat in such a manner. Amtrak was touted as a "for profit' enterprise; again John Q Public and the officials he elected 'bought it", those of us in the industry at the time did not.
In view of that I was in a management position (hardly high up be it assured) within the industry on A-Day, I remain quite skeptical that there is any real initiative on the part of FEC's overseers to operate passenger trains for their own account. Possibly, should FEC be sold to a public agency, passenger trains, be it the proposal to operate one or more Amtrak trains or some variant of this "All Aboard Florida', there will be a better chance of such occurring.
palmland Member # 4344
posted
Certainly there is more here than we are privy to. This comment from Trains.com a few days ago may provide a clue as to some of the behind the scenes plans:
"Financing the project may not be as large a hurdle as it would appear. Florida East Coast Industries’ parent Fortress Investment Group has $43.7 billion in assets and raised $4.2 billion in capital during 2011. Fortress says it has more than 1,000 institutional clients and private investors worldwide, but it lost $1.1 billion in 2011.
Florida East Coast Industries has real estate expertise since it also owns Flagler Development Group, one of South Florida’s largest development companies. It owns 5,000 acres of land in the state, including nine acres in downtown Miami that would be used for new development, including a new passenger station."
It remains to be seen what kind of 'partnership' there will be to get this off the ground as you can be sure there will be some wheeling and dealing between the railroad, Fortress, the state, and private developers.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
posted
If DPM were still with us, I'm certain he would be drawing analogies to the NYC-PRR merger first proposed during 1958. When he sat down to editorialize in TRAINS, he simply called it a "grandstand play", and he then proceeded to list a litany of reasons that it would not work.
DPM was right as history can attest.
DPM probably would have equally choice words for this grandstand play where I think the objective is something other than operating passenger trains for the private sector's account.
Vincent206 Member # 15447
posted
The financials indicate that FEC runs a nice little railroad, but if $66 million is needed annually for interest payments, they ain't going to make it hauling rocks and orange juice. I hear that the FEC plant is in good shape, but is there room to run a 110 mph passenger operation and still have room to run the freights?
notelvis Member # 3071
posted
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that the FEC's interest in hosting passenger trains (likely to be operated by Amtrak or some other contracted provider) is driven by a desire to leverage Federal Dollars to restore double-track to the southernmost 200 miles of the FEC.
Construct that branch over to Orlando and I could envision an operating pattern where Amtrak's Silver Star and Meteor divide into separate Miami and Tampa sections at Orlando.
palmland Member # 4344
posted
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman:
DPM probably would have equally choice words for this grandstand play where I think the objective is something other than operating passenger trains for the private sector's account.
I don't know, GBN. I like to think DPM would be a bit more optimistic. No doubt from his armchair in the Observation of the Orange Blossom Special in that railroad in the sky he would be wondering about this. Is it just another failed experiment or perhaps the beginning of a new model for rail passenger service of private/public partnership.
George Harris Member # 2077
posted
quote:Originally posted by notelvis: I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that the FEC's interest in hosting passenger trains (likely to be operated by Amtrak or some other contracted provider) is driven by a desire to leverage Federal Dollars to restore double-track to the southernmost 200 miles of the FEC.
I would see no need to restore the second main so long as they are a freight hauler.
I think GBN has pegged it fairly well. Remember the ICRR sell off? The buyers found cash by pulling up the second main, and selling other assets to the greatest extent practical. I watched it at the time and thought it an act of the desparate, much on the order of eating your seed corn because if you did not you would starve now, and you decided that you would worry next year about starving next year because you would have nothing left to plant.
They were offering fairly good rail to sell. St. Louis bought some fairly good CWR for their light rail system. Baltimore light rail looked at the possibility but did not because by the time it was shipped on a welded rail to Baltimore, new rail could be had from Steelton for about the same money.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
posted
The Statement of Cash Flows (how often did i use the term "cookie jar accounting' with my clients?) appears at Adobe Page 7 of the 2010 Annual Report and it shows a $1.1M increase in cash position over the prior year - all told, "cash neutral".
While on a national level, government is averse to go into profit seeking ventures in competition with the private sector, there is no law precluding them from doing so. It appears that the US Treasury has made a profit from the bailout of financial institutions just as they did from that of Conrail; the "jury is still out' with regards to those directed at the auto industry. Florida, with its conservative governance at present and that public funds have been committed to build "world class' maritime ports at both Miami and Everglades (FTL) may want the FEC to protect their investment in such and that, in a post PANAMAX world, they are competitive. An open access railroad which has a 350 mile captive linehaul to Jax, would ensure that either NS and CSX can access the traffic affording the shippers of the "competitive route" they desire and yet having a favorable division of the linehaul with FEC and its 350 miles of such. Although I believe that CSX makes rates from Miami, their schedules and tonnage is dictated by that they access Miami over a predominately passenger railroad - Tri-Rail.
While I have no inside knowledge of such be it assured, I think the FEC is so over leveraged that a private investor would be scared away. Even a minor recession, a Longshoreman strike, or a natural disaster, could have FEC in deep trouble. If a sale within the private sector is viable, then this passenger initiative will simply 'fade away", but if to a public agency, passenger trains are what John Q thinks railroads are all about - and maybe, just maybe, a scheduled one of one varietal or the other will roll on FEC rails.
But to reiterate, with the top heavy debt capitalization, I don't think a private sector party is too interested; therefore, with the committment being made to have the post-PANAMAX Port of Miami something beyond where the Love Tubs tie up, the State has a vested interest in the FEC remaining a viable, and independent, line. Even if either NS or CSX were "interested" (and again with the debt structure, I doubt if they are), the public sector party that is bankrolling the improvements to Miami, wants to be able to tout to the maritime industry "we have competitive rail routings" (never mind such is 350 miles away). If FEC ever got into CSX or NS hands, either would have no reason to provide good service as they collectively serve every major East Coast port as is. FEC would simply become a long branch line and maybe even abandoned.
This passenger train initiative simply makes for "good press' in an effort to sell the line to a public agency in a "(psgr) train hating' state. But once a sale is closed upon, I somehow think not too much further will be heard.
Just those two copper things in my pocket doing the talkin'.
Vincent206 Member # 15447
posted
The transaction that took the FEC private was done in 2007--remember those days? Railroads were thought to be potential cash cows and investors were fighting over every stick rail & puffer billy outfit in America. But now it's 2012 and any operation that is putting 1/3 of its revenue into debt service is on the ropes. And I'm sorry FEC, you're not too big to fail. So, I have to agree with Mr. Norman that this must be some gambit by Fortress to reduce debt load by dumping the FEC.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
posted
Over the past year, nothing has come to my attention to reverse my skepticism over this All Aboard Florida passenger service initiative. If AAF is in fact what I think it is - a ploy to stir up interest in the FEC for sale of the property to another party, such as the State, it will not be the first time in railroad history that a passenger train has been used as a pawn.
I think of the case involving the Chesapeake & Ohio during the immediate "postwar" years with Robert R Young. whose objective was to make a railroad into earlier day "dot com" - and with the resulting "one day pop".
The C&O, or otherwise the route of today's Amtrak Cardinal, had passenger trains but of course not exactly through the most populous or wealthy region around.
When Mr. Young, through the Alleghany Corporation, gained control of the C&O, first step was to start running national advertisements calling existing Pullman heavyweight sleepers "rolling tenements'. This was followed by ads such as "A hog can cross the country by train - but you can't". I'm sure to the public which was a "mite bit" more dependent on rail travel than they are today started to think "hey this all makes sense" " now just who is this Chesapeake and Ohio Railroad?".
Now comes an order for some 300 Pullman-Standard passenger cars, or roundly twice what would be needed to re equip everything from the "George Washington" down to a branch-line "Mixto".
And the topper; an order of cars from Budd (some still in service today as PV's) that were to be used for a premium Wash-Cinci daylight train to be named The Chessie; this order included Domes; never mind that they could not be accommodated into Wash Union Station at that time.
Wow, have we now stirred up some excitement about this railroad no one unaffiliated with the industry ever heard of.
Up goes the stock price; Young makes a killing and moves on the the New York Central.
Fortunately, there was a ready market for passenger cars at that time, so the "over order" was easily absorbed by other roads clamoring for new equipment. The Chessie was stillborn, and its equipment was put to use "elsewhere".
But this faux passenger train initiative sparked a lot of interest and public awareness - and I believe it is analogous with what is moving forth with this All Aboard Florida today.
palmland Member # 4344
posted
In spite of a lot of questions as to its viability, All Aboard Florida is proceeding as if it is 'the real deal'. Based on their resumes, I wouldn't be surprised if they get off the ground, that there is soon some link to WDW, either by rail or Disney's transportation system.
posted
I don't care if they go out and hire Mickey Mouse and a corps of Mousekeeters to run this thing. I'm still holding to my views that this is some kind of "public awareness" stunt to put the FEC on the map and otherwise "fatten up the steer" for a sale to a public agency.
Here are my odds at present:
30% that an Amtrak train will someday be scheduled over the FEC
20% that a Locally funded intrastate pazssenger train will run over the FEC (lest we forget, volks, that in order for there to be a State funded passenger train in Florida, under existing law, any county it operates through must impose a dedicated tax to participate in its funding. The route goes through an awful lot of Fox News watching, train hating, real estate).
0% that the FEC, or any subsidiary thereof, will operate a passenger train for their own account.
However, I'll be in Miami on Saturday for a "one night stand". Since the flight home on Sunday does not leave until 545P, and I will be a "street person" from Noon onward (just like someone else around here: not renting a car), I'll hoof around and see the progress on a project the FEC IS serious about - and that is rail access to the Port of Miami.
Vincent206 Member # 15447
posted
Some new information has been posted about the plans for AAF's station at Orlando International Airport. I've never been to Orlando and I don't know much about the local housing and land use patterns, but it seems odd to terminate the line at the airport unless the central business district is very near the airport and well connected with efficient ground transportation. (Is there such a thing as a downtown business district in Orlando?) Will the cost and time needed to transfer to local transportation for the final link make the train less competitive versus driving or flying?
Geoff Mayo Member # 153
posted
I guess the American definition of "well connected with efficient ground transportation" means "does it have good roads". In that case, yes. So, private car, taxi, or bus will get you downtown. And, yes there is a central business district of sorts, though parts have seen busier days.
Amtrak runs right through the heart of the downtown area - without stopping, of course. Its station is further south. The station is even an intermodal transportation center - well, there's a bus stop outside anyway.
Would I, a train enthusiast, take the train to Orlando? Not again. Orlando has lots of transportation options. The only problem is none of it connects with anything else, buses aside. Few people enjoy taking the bus, especially on a family vacation.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
posted
Gottaluv these two 'Barbies' playing 'powder puff ball' with one another:
Could we please go back to radio news where it did not matter what the face behind the voice looked like? These two deserve to have their picture in the dictionary under the definition of airhead, both in the way they look and their message. On the other hand, the message is probably entirely scriptwriter.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
posted
Just think Mr. Harris, what would have Mike Wallace done to the FEC/AAF pitch lady - especially if he had reason to be as skeptical as am I that there is an objective other than to operate passenger trains for their own account.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
posted
Earlier in the topic (posting 26) I noted:
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman:
Here are my odds at present:
30% that an Amtrak train will someday be scheduled over the FEC
20% that a Locally funded intrastate pazssenger train will run over the FEC (lest we forget, volks, that in order for there to be a State funded passenger train in Florida, under existing law, any county it operates through must impose a dedicated tax to participate in its funding. The route goes through an awful lot of Fox News watching, train hating, real estate).
0% that the FEC, or any subsidiary thereof, will operate a passenger train for their own account.
OK, let this 'nabob of negativism' around here address the '20% chance'. IF there is to ever be intercity passenger train service over the FEC, it will be publicly funded. It will operate over the existing SAL/Tri Rail route from the Intermodal Center to the existing SAL/FEC interchange North of West Palm; thence FEC to Moncrief terminating at Amtrak JAX.
There will be at least one station stop in every county (possibly Jax Terminal could be one of such; hey, Duvall could claim 'we got two'). Orlando would be served by bus from Cocoa - the Orange County stop.
Frequency: 'three to four a day'
Equipment: bi-level; new or used
Max speed: 79mph
On Board: Coach, Business, and a 'contracted out' Snack Bar ('new' service; that's fair game).
Maintenance: Hialeah, choice of Tri Rail or Amtrak.
Operator: T&E Amtrak or Herzog (Tri Rail); fight it out; may the best outfit win.
palmland Member # 4344
posted
My guess as to order of new passenger rail in FL
1. State funded extension of tri rail to perhaps Stuart or Ft. Pierce 2. All Aboard to Orlando 3. Amtrak Silver Service on FEC - no chance, unless they receive state support, unlikely for a true LD service.
I don't think the FEC was ever planning on doing All Aboard as a public service or contribute to the bottom line. Their primary interest, as they have stated, is improving the market value of the real estate they own between W. Palm and Miami. If you look at their top management, its all about real estate development - except for the extremely capable Gene Skoropowski of California Capital Corridor fame.
One of these days, GBN, we'll get that glass half full for you.
I can only hope that the dozen or so around here who know me face to face will concur that our Good Lord blessed me with enough tact to keep the 'I told you so's" in check, BUT----
Sure looks like the beginning of the end.
Brief passage:
All Aboard Florida's promised Miami-to-Orlando passenger rail service will initially run only between Miami, Fort Lauderdale and West Palm Beach, with trains rolling in late 2016, officials now say.
The company plans to start building its downtown Fort Lauderdale station and double-tracking its South Florida segment late this summer as it works out the logistics of building the rest of the line to Orlando.
Company president Michael Reininger said the initial service won't compete with Tri-Rail because its trains will only stop in the three downtowns-- an hourlong trip. Tri-Rail makes 16 stops between Miami International Airport and West Palm Beach and takes more than 90 minutes.
"We don't see this at all as a competitor to commuter rail," Reininger said. "It's complementary service."
The company today plans to unveil designs for the $30 million Fort Lauderdale station, located north of Broward Boulevard near Northwest Second Street
Vincent206 Member # 15447
posted
Is there a good business case for service between the downtowns of Miami, Ft. Lauderdale and West Palm Beach? If this service is marketed to the local business communities as an express ride through traffic with the tantalizing potential of continuing on to Orlando once permits are obtained and those pesky NIMBYs are subdued, it might generate some revenue and political support from the business community. At this point, AAF likely needs the political support more than it needs the dollars.
Has the MFL&WPB announced their rolling stock order yet? Even if they wanted to start next week, they wouldn't have trains to run (unless they could get their hands on Mr. Walker's Talgos). How long will it take to get rolling stock built, tested, approved and on-line?
quote:35,000 linear feet of new steel rails have been laid on the ground alongside existing freight train tracks at two sites in Palm Beach County just west of North Dixie Highway in Boca Raton.
Parking lots that for years were packed with vehicles next to the Miami-Dade County Hall building and Metrorail tracks in downtown Miami are now empty, closed for coming construction of the train’s Miami station.
But there's also a puzzle to solve:
quote: In a recent interview at his Coral Gables office, Reininger said the company has selected the type of train it will run on the Miami-Orlando track, but wouldn’t reveal specifics.
“We can hint at it by saying that with certainty it is going to be a state-of-the-art train that will be the most technologically advanced train of its type,” Reininger said. “It will be made in the USA and it will have the newest and highest emission standards built into the technology of the train as well.”
What is it? Talgo or something else?
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
posted
Well volks, does anyone sincerely believe, all this news fluff notwithstanding, that this service is going to turn a wheel for a private sector party's own account?
Guarantee you, I'm still doubtful, but any initiative to develop the Miami property will move forth now fifty years after passenger train operations ceased. Successful real estate developers know the virtue of patience.
quote:The initial five trainset purchase to serve the Miami to West Palm Beach segment will consist of two diesel-electric locomotives, one on each end of four passenger coaches. These diesel-electric locomotives will meet the highest emissions standards set by the federal government. All Aboard Florida and Siemens plan to expand the initial trainsets to seven coaches, and purchase an additional five trainsets, concurrent with environmental approvals and additional financing for the segment from West Palm Beach to the Orlando International Airport.
The trainsets will be built at the Siemens plant in Sacramento.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
posted
Anyone remember how Robert R. Young deliberately ordered twice as much equipment as needed to reequip anything the Chesapeake & Ohio was running during the post WWII era? Of course, he had a ready market to dispose of the surplus at that time.
But he got his "splash" that C&O was a major player on the railroad scene.
Siemens may be willing to go along with this charade and even build some cars. Within the next five years, it is as good as certain that Amtrak will have to place an order in the range of 400 new single level cars if they intend to stay in business (for ready reference the Amfleet I order was 492 cars). With cars ready to go, after AAF "pulls the pin", they could be in the enviable position of saying "hey Amtrak, we got cars ready to go and if you need another 400, it is just a case of cranking up the production line",
I remain as skeptical as ever.
Geoff Mayo Member # 153
posted
Somebody needs to tell their Twitter operator how to spell Siemens. They've referred to it as Seimens thrice in the last week alone.
posted