If the New Orleans to Orlando leg of the Sunset is permanently deleted, why couldn't Amtrak have the New Orleans to LA run a daily train?
What about the idea of cutting off the eastbound Sunset at San Antonio and have it go on up to Dallas, St. Louis, and Chicago? Then, a seperate service to New Orleans. If this happened, would they eliminate the Texas Eagle? What about, instead, have the Sunset follow the Heartland Flyer route to Oklahoma City, Kansas City, then on to Chicago?
Richard
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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Richard, it appears that the date of publication for this material is confusing at best. There is one dateline showing May 2012, yet another showing May 2010.
All of the points you note have been considered and are addressed in the PRIIA 08 mandated report regarding the Sunset. There is no Daily service because the Union Pacific identified track improvements needed for such and that Amtrak considered cost prohibitive. Therefore it remains tri weekly.
There is no "quid pro quo" regarding the discontinuance of Sunset East and a Daily Sunset West. Since Amtrak was successful with its strategy to discontinue Sunset East, why dilute that victory with offering something like Daily service (which the UP will not allow over existing infrastructure) when the battle has been won?
And finally, for "three a week", there cannot be and justification for restoring the trackage West of Phoenix that would enable direct service to Phoenix.
Transfer (bus) service from Maricopa to Downtown Phoenix? I guess OK if an independent operator was willing to give it a try.
But otherwise, and in view of a 2010 dateline on this material, I can only hold that a dead horse is being whipped.
yukon11 Member # 2997
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I think one (among other) reasons for the shutdown of bus service from Maricopa to Phoenix was the unreliability of Sunset arrival and departure times. I wonder, now that it is 3x/week from New Orleans to LA, if the Sunset on-time performance will improve?
Richard
DeeCT Member # 3241
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Yukon,
It has been 3 times a week from New Orleans to Los Angeles for quite some time now. The only change in the schedule is the time of day for departures and arrivals. Whether that will help the on time performance .... we will have to wait and see.
Dee
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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Historical note: Sunset has been tri-weekly since December 1969. This reduction in service from Daily arose when Southern Pacific agreed with the ICC that in exchange for the frequency reduction, Sleeping and Dining Cars, including a through Sleeper from New York, would be restored. Prior to this agreement, the Daily service consist was Coaches and an Automat Food Service car. I have always wondered how much SP paid the horn and Hsrdhart Co for the use of their Automat trademark; I have no idea.
But from having ridden the Sunset during December 1970 NO-El Paso, I'd dare say SP lived up to their side of the bargain. The train was spotless, on time, and the food was superb.
irishchieftain Member # 1473
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What I don't understand is why there are rails going through Maricopa in the first place. Would have thought that it would make more sense even for freights (read UP) to have a through route passing via Phoenix, Tempe and all the more populated/commercial areas. Maricopa is a bedroom community for Phoenix, basically; an edge city.
(Also WADR, two years ago isn't quite "recent".)
yukon11 Member # 2997
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Irishchieftain: Yes, I agree. It should go through Phoenix.
Dee: I was thinking that, without the New Orleans to Orlando leg, the on time performance of the Sunet will improve. And yes, let's hope the more favorable change in the arrival and departure times, into Maricopa, will allow for a good bus connection between Maricopa and Phoenix.
Mr. Norman: I took a few SP_passenger trains, before Amtrak, and the food was excellent.
Here is a schedule for the SP Sunset from November, 1970. I do see that the train made a stop in both Phoenix and Tucson. Note the arrival times, compared to that of now:
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: Historical note: Sunset has been tri-weekly since December 1969. This reduction in service from Daily arose when Southern Pacific agreed with the ICC that in exchange for the frequency reduction, Sleeping and Dining Cars, including a through Sleeper from New York, would be restored. Prior to this agreement, the Daily service consist was Coaches and an Automat Food Service car.
This goes with my memory too- I rode the SL from NOL to LAX while it was still a daily, in the config. GBN details in his post. My trip was '67 or '68, er, can't exactly remember which. I do remember having loads of fun with the other "teenagers;" when the Automat took our quarters and didn't give the food, a surly Attendant gave us "complaint slips" to "write to the Company" for our refunds. My other memory was standing for hours on the back open platform of the ancient rearmost coach while sailing over the SP high iron, with the conductor's permission.
As to why the SP (now UP) Main went south of Phoenix city proper, I think that was possibly done to keep high speed frt/psgr trains out of the downtown core, maybe also for flatter and easier terrain for track building. Just my guess; I know there are many cities that take big, fast mainlines through their downtowns.
palmland Member # 4344
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My only SP ride was the summer of '65 from New Orleans - Houston on the Sunset. This was a continuation of a trip via the Southerner, overnight in NOL and then the Sunset. The New Orleans part was pretty fuzzy (imagine a couple college guys with a night on the town there). The Sunset ride was in a very nice coach, but do remember walking past the sleepers (I believe there were two) to our car. Also remember how nice the diner was - with pink tablecloths and great service. The return was via MP-CRIP.
Many years later, we were on the Sunset again (Amtrak's version), but this time to Phoenix. But not wanting to do the Maricopa shuffle, we continued to LA then San Diego with a return to Phoenix courtesy Southwest.
mr williams Member # 1928
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Within the past 12/18 months there was a big Amtrak proposal document on making the TE a daily service right through to LAX with NOL-SAS becoming a daily stub train.
It was very long, lengthy and detailed and got quite a bit of coverage at first but it then seemingly disappeared into thin air!
If, as suggested above, UP won't allow daily service on the line "period", then why on earth did they waste all that money producing a vast report on a scheme that was a non-starter to begin with???
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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quote:Originally posted by mr williams: If, as suggested above, UP won't allow daily service on the line "period", then why on earth did they waste all that money producing a vast report on a scheme that was a non-starter to begin with???
Consultants have a way of getting fed at the "Feddytrough".
You've got your "Pink Elephants" over there as well, Mr. Williams.
PullmanCo Member # 1138
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Witness the preliminary study and the Service Development Plan for Dallas-Kansas City service.
Those electrons are now moldering on a hard drive in the Kansas Department of Transportation, and two different consulting firms got $750K out of the deal.
George Harris Member # 2077
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quote:Originally posted by irishchieftain: What I don't understand is why there are rails going through Maricopa in the first place. Would have thought that it would make more sense even for freights (read UP) to have a through route passing via Phoenix, Tempe and all the more populated/commercial areas. Maricopa is a bedroom community for Phoenix, basically; an edge city.
Because when the SP line was first built east from California Phoenix was a village. According to information I found Tucson was the only city worth mentioning between Yuma AZ and El Paso TX. This was in about 1880. Somewhere in the late 1800's a spur line was built from Maricopa to Phoenix. The following is from the cprr.org/museum:
quote:In 1926, the first main line operated by the Southern Pacific Railroad was routed through Union Station in Phoenix. First there was the Californian, and then in 1927 the Golden State and finally the train that truly established Phoenix as a tourist destination, the Sunset Limited.
Looking at the map, in other words, the line through Phoenix used by the Sunset Limited was not even there before 1926, so there were no east-west through trains serving Phoenix prior to that. You had to take a branch line train down to the main line to go anywhere east or west. I guess that by the 20's Phoenix was getting big enough for the SP to decide it needed through service.
I have a suspicion that the rail in the Phoenix West line could well be that put down at the time of the original construction. It is likely that the ties represent no more than the second or third tie put down in any given location.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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I can recall seeing as a kid during the '40's a map marked Arizona Territory, which was admitted to the Union as a state during 1912. Who knows what the politics were that resulted in the Capital being located in some "tumbleweed town" rather than the only population center of any kind within the now State.
In view of the metropolis Phoenix has become, I would say it was quite appropriately named.
But one way or the other, the SP decided it was in their best interest to offer through East-West service to the Capital.
palmland Member # 4344
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Well, I don't know that Phoenix rose from the ashes, but maybe from the orange blossoms. When I plucked my bride from there, Scottsdale was still a small town and proudly billed itself as the 'The West's most western town' (no cowboys in sight now). So it is interesting that the 'real' Sunset had quite a short life span. Next time we're there, I'll check some of that rail to see if it really is 1926 vintage.
I still maintain that the most viable option for good passenger service to Phoenix from the east is via a connection off the SWC at Flagstaff. Certainly, a high percentage of the current residents are from Chicago and the midwest, not bayou country.
More realistically though, I'm surprised Amtrak doesn't alter the schedule a bit and provide a real Thruway bus connection at decent hours to the Valley of the Sun. Or, how about a set out sleeper there for the Phoenix and GC NP traffic - make a same night turn back east. Maybe possible if the SWC gets its reroute. Anything is better than the depressing drive to Maricopa (the housing bust hit the communities on the far fringes of the metro area the hardest).
sojourner Member # 3134
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Mr Williams, I could be wrong, but I believe the report was made in accordance with legislation passed by Congress. (I don't know that consultants were involved, either.)
yukon11 Member # 2997
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I always wondered if there ever was a passenger train connection between Flagstaff and Phoenix/Tucson in the old days. Anyone know? I know it would not be easy because of the elevation, snow, mountains, etc going north to Flagstaff. Is there, presently, a bus connection between Flag, Phoenix, & Tucson to connect with the Sunset?
And, if you are of such belief, the Tucson station is haunted after Wyatt Earp shot down Frank Stillwell back in 1882:
posted
There are Thruway buses running between Flagstaff and Phoenix that connect with the Southwest Chief. Most are operated by Arizona Shuttle while there is one Greyhound bus that runs between the Greyhound stations of Flagstaff and Phoenix.
Arizona Shuttle's buses are not big "cruiser" buses, but more like vans and minibuses. Their largest bus looks like this:
And I don't see how the history of the SP through Arizona has any bearing upon closing the railroad line going through Phoenix in favor of the line through Maricopa. There are no "high speed" freights or passenger trains running through the area, and there wouldn't be any particular speed restrictions if the line via Phoenix were kept. Not only can Amtrak no longer access Phoenix, but UP has also eschewed potential freight customers in the Phoenix area.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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There was into the '60's and maybe even as late as the '67 "Post Office Massacre", connecting ATSF service Williams-Phoenix. Which mainline train there was a connection with, I defer to Mr. Bowen.
But the line is circuitous and torturous even considering a massive line change project the ATSF made during the '50's to access Phoenix.
palmland Member # 4344
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Circuitous it is, GBN. The last OGR I have that shows the connection is Oct. '67. Westbound, it left Williams Jct around 1:30am off a connection with the San Francisco Chief. A leisurely 6 1/2 hour later it completed the 209 mile journey via Wickenburg arriving Phoenix at a very civilized 8:00am. The return left at 3:15pm for an 8:45pm connection to the Chief. Nice little train - coaches, diner/lounge, and 6-6-4 sleeper.
I remember seeing the full page ad in the Denver Post about that time from Santa Fe President John Reed apologizing for the wholesale curtailment of many of their trains. The loss of mail was certainly a big part of that.
A 1968 OGR shows a 'motor coach' connection - taking about 2 hours.
Vincent206 Member # 15447
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There was a plan floated by then AZ Governor Janet Napolitano to connect Tucson and Phoenix via HSR. The trains would have run from downtown to downtown and would have made connections to the Sunset easier. The plan involved rehabilitating the Picacho to Phoenix connection for HSR passenger service, but didn't envision any passenger service west of Phoenix. If the plan had been more fully developed it might have had a pretty good chance of being funded by ARRA, given Napolitano's cabinet post.
Another very real point with New Orleans - Orlando off equals the possibility of New Orleans - Los Angeles going daily: maybe from Amtrak and an equipment viewpoint, but from a host railroad perspective completely meaningless as Sunset East and Sunset West did not operate over any trackage under common ownership outside New Orleans itself where is was on a third company's trackage.
SunsetLtd Member # 3985
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Technically there's nothing stopping the Sunset from serving Phoenix, the only thing is it would serve it as the Silver Star serves Tampa... A very long backtrack back to the mainline. If AZ had some extra cash (kinda dreaming here) I'd say they should start something Tucson-Phoenix (with a possible connection up to Williams?) and the Sunset would easily connect to it. It's all in UP's hands though. If they ever decide to restore the west line who wants to bet they'll want Amtrak to maintain it? It could turn into another Raton Pass issue.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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Mr. Williams, Ms. Sojourner--
Here is the Sunset Limited report mandated under RSIA 08 (Division B - PRIIA):
Ms. Sojourner, pleased to note that you have "surfaced". It appeared that you were AWOLoose.
mr williams Member # 1928
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Thank you Mr Norman. That is indeed the report I was thinking of, and as mentioned was Congress mandated as to how the performance of the worst five of Amtrak's LD routes might be improved ("performance" included operational, time-keeping and customer satisfaction issues as well as financial).
The SL and TE were regarded as two separate trains, but does anybody remember seeing the reports on the other three (Cardinal, Capitol Ltd and, surprisingly, the CZ)?
mgt Member # 5479
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They are available on the Amtrak wewbsite, News and Media then Reports and Documents.
posted ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
