In essence, this Oversight Hearing noted immediately is one more round of "same old...". Trust Rep. Mica (R-FL7) will be bringing in a wad of dollar bills and will proceed to burn them as featured in past hearings of this nature.
However, one proposal does appear to have merit and that is cashless transactions for on-board Food and Beverage.
In-flight purchases are now credit/debit card only, which would make it more palatable for Amtrak to follow suit. There is now an upscale grocery store in my back yard that accepts plastic only at check-out lanes.
There is no law that requires a merchant to accept currency.
I know there are alternative arguments to this position, such as implementing such a practice would effectively require an Amtrak passenger to have a credit/debit card, but I defer to others to present them. For myself being a Retired CPA, the less currency "sloshing" about any place of business is a step in the right direction.
Posted by Greg (Member # 66) on :
I would have a big issue with not accepting legal currency and requiring passengers to have a credit or debit card to obtain food or beverage service.
But if the issue is tracking cash transactions, wouldn't use of the same types of devices used for self checkout in stores serve the same purpose?
Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :
Well, Gil -- in reference to a recent thread which you started, it was implied that many coach passengers who ride AMTRAK may not have the ability to obtain credit cards -- if that is the case (and I am not sure it actually is), then that would be a bad mistake on AMTRAK's part, as they would then lose even more money from such passengers who are unable to use on-board food service since they have no credit card. I would especially be concerned about college students -- when I was in college, I did not have a credit card (maybe that has changed by now, however......)
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Rich and Greg, I think "the times they are a changin".
Even if there are enough passengers who hold your respective views on the matter, at least the Dining Car could become cash-free without adversely affecting too many. A cash-free Diner is addressed, pro and con, within the Lake Shore Limited Improvement Plan document (under PRIIA) which is still available at the Amtrak website.
To continue, here are additional, and readable for a laymen, thoughts regarding a merchant's legal obligation to accept currency:
Oh, and regarding arilines and in-flight F&B, when I was last on an airplane during June (KORD-KHPN-KORD), United and its puddle jumper "partners" no longer accept currency in-flight. It seems as if I made out like a bandit in both directions with Sky West. Eastward the card imprinter wouldn't work, so I got comped for one Chardonnay (only one; as I had to drive a rented car to Greenwich). Returning, again the card reader would not work, so I got comped for two Chardonnays (was taking my "poor man's way" home - CTA, BNSF and "shanks mare"; therefore two). I offered to the Flight Attendant to pay if she had any way to bill me; she didn't. I further found out that in-flight purchases with Sky West are billed through whatever major, such as United as it was in this case, they are flying for (they provide the imprinter), but Sky West has to cater the flights out of their pocket.
Oh well, life isn't fair; didn't we learn that by, say, third grade?
Posted by Vincent206 (Member # 15447) on :
It looks like there needs to be some clearer accounting of F&B costs in Amtrak's books. There is a chart in the linked material that displays 10 years of Amtrak's F&B financial performance. Looking at those numbers, it doesn't look like revenue from sleeper passengers is included in the total revenue generated by F&B operations, but it looks like the full cost of providing meals to sleeper passengers is included in F&B expenses. So there needs to be a partial allocation of sleeper revenues to F&B revenues to make a meaningful analysis of F&B operations.
Posted by TwinStarRocket (Member # 2142) on :
Eliminating cash will hinder one of the two algorithms I use for financial planning.
Amtrak CEO Joe Boardman defended the agency's food service management at the hearing.
"Amtrak has been working hard to improve service, to realize our opportunities for growth, and to manage our company like a business," he told lawmakers in written testimony. "Food service for passengers is an essential component for any transportation service that operates scheduled trips that extend for more than a few hours."
Boardman said Amtrak recovered 20 percent more of the money it spent on food and beverages in 2011 than it did in 2006.
"Part of what attracts people to Amtrak services is the availability of food, and the manner in which it is offered," he said. "If we were to eliminate food and beverage services, we we would actually lose more money, because of the loss in associated ticket revenue."
Either the matter I consider germane, namely cashless F&B service, was not addressed or was overlooked by The Hill's reporter.
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
Credit/debit card-only sales would not make foreign tourists happy in that they would have to pay a $x foreign transaction fee every time they buy a can of soda. Those foreigners might only make up a small percentage of customers but is it really a good idea to kill off that stream when you're trying to build customers?
I guess there is potential in those prepaid Visa/MC cards which I *think* can be bought without additional cost or proof of US address.
Posted by sojourner (Member # 3134) on :
Are you sure the exchange rate isn't so much better using credit cards that even with the foreign transaction fee it might be worth it? I find that has been the case in the past in Canada, but perhaps that had changed more recently.
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
Last month the exchange rate between CAN$1 and US$1 was 1:1. This made the 3 per cent Master Card foreign currency fee rather onerous.
I'm riding the Algoma Central's Tour of the Line Monday and will report back on the current rate. (I could look it up but it's more fun the other way.)
LATER: Curiosity got the better of me. Today's rate starts at CAN$1=US$0.9938.
Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :
There are still folks who either have no job or who can't get credit cards for whatever reason. If, as has been stated, one of these people embarks on an AMTRAK coach ride of 8 hours or more (AMTRAK coach being all they can afford), and they can't get food, this would appear to be counter to the intent of any Federal f & b laws.
Gil -- I do recognize from your most recent post that the "cashless" system was not addressed in the recent hearings, so maybe this was all rumor.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Rich, I respect that there are people out there who cannot qualify for even a debit card (you have to have a bank account, and some people cannot qualify for that), but if Amtrak were to sell "gift cards" for on-board F&B (with the understanding that any balance would be redeemed on demand), my objective of getting that "sinister Green stuff" off the trains would be attained.
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
quote:Originally posted by sojourner: Are you sure the exchange rate isn't so much better using credit cards that even with the foreign transaction fee it might be worth it? I find that has been the case in the past in Canada, but perhaps that had changed more recently.
My example of a soda was probably one of the cheapest things to buy on board - let's say $1. Converting to GBP results in about 65p (in fact, about the same price as if you'd bought a can singly in the UK) - but IIRC my bank used to charge a flat fee of GBP2 per foreign transaction - that's about $3. So that $1 can of Pepsi actually cost $4! I note my current US bank charges $5 per foreign transaction so no doubt there are others that charge more or less than the examples given. Now, if you bought a meal for two at say $50 then a total of $52 doesn't seem quite so bad. The annoying thing is not knowing at the POS exactly what it's going to cost you, unless you looked it up in advance of travel.
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: Rich, I respect that there are people out there who cannot qualify for even a debit card (you have to have a bank account, and some people cannot qualify for that), but if Amtrak were to sell "gift cards" for on-board F&B (with the understanding that any balance would be redeemed on demand), my objective of getting that "sinister Green stuff" off the trains would be attained.
I assume you mean buying in advance of travel? I'm not sure that would work too well either. How many people would know or remember to buy the cards?
"Traveling by Amtrak? Don't forget to buy your Amdollars before you board!"
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Mr. Mayo, all I can say to your immediate point is where does personal responsibility end and the "Nanny State" take over?
Off the rails, I lived through just such an incident this morning. The balance in my I-Pass, the toll highway transponder collection system around here, was $.85 (cents). It got to that balance on July 21 - I knew it but I also knew I was not going to use the Tollway until tomorrow when I'm off to Amana Iowa (staying in Coralville at a Holiday Inn that offers "rooms with a view"). I had been receiving the flood of e-mails from the Authority "your balance is low...."; ain't that my problem?
Today, I went out there to "fill 'er up" for the trip which will be $9.60 in tolls. I'm having to listen to this officious State employee: "Sir, do you know what your balance is?", "Yes, 85 cents", "Do you know what a violation would cost you (she "conveniently forgot" to note that you have seven days to pony up without any kind of penalty); shall I sign you up for our automatic replenishment plan?", "no Ma'am, because I'd be giving you guys a permanent float of not less than $20 and as high as $40". She obviously knew what I was doing and backed away with "Well, your prerogative".
She then proceeded to process my replenishment of $10.00.
Finally, to close on topic, The Times has coverage of the Hearing:
Well, my argument is that cash ought to be accepted virtually anywhere. Any counter argument that airlines might be cashless is simply because most often you need a credit/debit card to buy a ticket, thus using the same onboard is just an extension. Not so with Amtrak tickets where you can easily buy in cash - and I think the average American would be surprised (and hungry) to climb on board an Amtrak train and find they can't buy anything with cash.
That newspaper article indicates that 0.5 to 1% of the millions lost is likely due to theft. Assuming even all of that is cash theft, it's miniscule compared to the rest of the problem.
So, would turning Amtrak into a cashless system reduce labor costs? No. There's still only one food attendant so you can't reduce that any further. Dining car crew are thinned out too, so that can't be reduced.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
You do have a good point Mr. Mayo; I think that to fly on almost any carrier, you have to have "plastic" (you definitely must have it to rent an auto - and here I think it must be a credit card).
There is one airline, Spirit, that caters to the bargain basement crowd. They have arrangements with various currency exchange operators, such as Western Union, to sell tickets through their outlets and for which a passenger may pay in currency.
Somehow I must hold that if Amtrak management thought cashless F&B were a good idea, I think it would have been implemented. So those of you who prefer to pay cash appear safe from us gnome green eyeshade types, who are more concerned about safeguarding assets than ostensible customer convenience.
Finally, do I pay for anything and everything possible with credit cards, you bet I do, for I HATE CASH and I LOVE receipts. Do I chase reward points? no way. The one card I have that has reward points, a Capital One Visa, I clean 'em out once a year with a charitable donation, such as to Red Cross or Salvation Army (a religious organization I know, but they have many non-sectarian health and welfare programs).
Posted by sbalax (Member # 2801) on :
Just a little background on how this works on one carrier (United).
If a passenger doesn't have a credit or debit card the F/A will usually suggest that they ask the person next to them to use their card and then take the cash. There is rarely a problem doing this. (Get those miles!)
Unaccompanied Minors are given, within reason, what they want to eat -- Usually a burger or snack box.
Sodas, coffee, tea and milk continue to be complimentary.
To passengers coming in from other countries, especially Latin America, a suggestion is made to go to a convenience store and buy a pre-paid card. Most of them know about this already.
The HHD's (Hand Held Devices) continue to be a problem. On a recent OGG (Kahului, Maui) flight of the three on board only one worked and when it came time to download it back in LA it crashed losing an estimated $1200.00 in revenue.
On the Amtrak side, I have, as most of you have, seen the theft. One especially transparent example was the dining car waiter on the Zephyr who encouraged all sleeper pax to order dessert whether they wanted it or not. He then sold the extras to coach passengers and pocketed the money.
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
For the record, I do try to use a card as much as possible. Those fiddly coins are just too numerous and useless.
Mind you, for all the clamour and angst of "chip & pin" in the UK when it became virtually mandatory a few years ago, it did cut down card fraud significantly - years earlier in France by 90%. I've only been here (in the US) for 4 months and I've disputed (and won) two transactions where the merchandiser offered no contest. Here, if somebody finds my AMEX and tries to buy gas, all they need is my zip code - which, probably 9 times out of 10, will be the same zip code of the gas station.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Funny Frank, how I was getting ready to post "hey, I thought you were with Continental..." But then the lightbulb went on.
Well, at least I've now learned that United themselves can take a bath (and somehow I think that bath PHOG-KLAX with a 200 PAX 757-300 and 5hrs was a mite bit more than the one SkyWest took KORD-KHPN with a 50 PAX Bombardier @ 1.5hrs) owing to faulty card readers. I'm sure they nickel and dime their partners like SkyWest every which way to sundown, but it appears that with card readers, it is without prejudice (even if the OO FA might have led me to believe she thought otherwise).
Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :
I shy away from using credit cards as much as I can, especially now that I am retired and on a fixed income -- it is way to easy to accumulate a maximum credit card balance, then have no way to pay it off (and the interest rates for credit cards are astronomcal!......) -- when I sold my house in FL, the first thing I did was pay off all my credit accounts, plus my car loan, and I'm glad I did. I haven't used my VISA credit card since then. I do use my debit card, however, since that is just like writing checks, and I can much more easily control my checking account spending, plus you don't have 18-20% interest on debit card purchases.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Here is Mr. Boardman's testimony prepared for the Hearing:
I have learned that Rep. Mica pulled some kind of stunt at or immediately after the Hearing involving a Big Mac; further details I know not.
Finally, note that Rep. Corrine Brown (D-FL3) also is on that Committee. The record clearly establishes her as a "staunch supporter".
Posted by Vincent206 (Member # 15447) on :
Since every piece of paper money in the US says on its face, "THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE" I am surporised that someone has not taken these "no cash" places to court on the basis that paymetn in cahs cannot legally be refused. Maybe they have and lost. If so, I would love to know when, where and on what grounds.
Posted by sbalax (Member # 2801) on :
I go weeks without paying for anything in cash. As a matter of fact, I now rarely carry more than $20 or $30.00. I used to carry singles for tips at the car wash but you can now add that to the bill which, of course, I pay with a credit card.
Frank in dark and oddly warm and humid SBA
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Well; look at who's facing some opposition this November:
WASHINGTON — An increasingly nasty Republican primary in central Florida between Representative Sandy Adams and Representative John L. Mica in many ways encapsulates the central conflict that has divided House Republicans in the 112th Congress.
Mr. Mica, chairman of the powerful House Transportation Committee, has spent nearly two decades in Congress bringing home the proverbial bacon for his district, cured and ready for constituent enjoyment.
Ms. Adams, a freshman blessed by the Tea Party, passed her first term railing against just that sort of spending — which used to help get people elected — even voting against a highway bill that Mr. Mica had championed. She is trying to frame Mr. Mica as an old-school big spender out of step with the party and the nation, a battle cry that has led to the policy and strategy conflicts that have defined House Republicans this year
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
Wow - interesting read GBN.
The he/said, she/said bit between the candidates regarding whether the challenger did (or did not) attack the incumbants family in her advertising is of concern.
I say this because I've always believed that the people representing opposing ideaologies puff and bluster for show when the cameras are rolling but are congenial enough after hours to strike the deals which must be made behind closed doors.
Increasingly it looks like the art of compromise has itself been compromised and maybe these folks are really beginning to hate one another.
More to point here - I'm thinking Amtrak fares better with a known-carnaval barker who ultimately will make a deal than with a relative unknown candidate backing a Tea Party agenda.....
Posted by Vincent206 (Member # 15447) on :
John R. Smith appears to be active with an advocacy group; Reconnecting America
Posted by DonNadeau (Member # 61606) on :
quote:Originally posted by RRRICH: I do use my debit card, however, since that is just like writing checks, and I can much more easily control my checking account spending, plus you don't have 18-20% interest on debit card purchases.
Be careful though. You can easily dispute a false credit card charge, but convincing a bank that a hacker drained your entire account by accessing your information illegally (via a key reader on a merchant's credit card machine or whatever) will be far more difficult.
In your situation, I would be far more comfortable setting up a completely separate bank account with a debit card that always has a rather small balance and keeping the rest of my money elsewhere, with no debit card access.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Well, it appears that Mr. Nadeau has now brought this topic full circle by directing the discussion towards credit card usage.
I respect that everyone has their comfort level towards credit card usage; Mr. Twin Star's certainly is straight to the point.
But for myself, cash is "sinister", and whenever I witness a large transaction being effected that is customarily handled by credit card, I'm wondering what the payor is up to?
Case in point; a few years ago, at The Meadows, I was standing in line to check out of the Flamingo after a seminar. Ahead of me was a guy who obviously had run up a big bill. He did not appear to be disputing any items, but rather he had a thick wad of "Ben Franklin's" and was peeling them off while the clerk was counting them. Then she get out a big rubber stamp that I guess said Paid.
While it was time consuming, both parties were courteous to one another, and for myself, I was in no danger of missing my flight (this was pre 9/11 by the way). However, all I could think is what is this guy hiding and from whom?
Now a confession; my daily "fix" of "junk TV" is "Judge Judy". I am simply amazed at how many of her litigants are young people that haven't the vaguest as to what a contract is, i.e. a gift or a loan. I'm also appalled at how many of them simply say "I paid him cash" and without any record whatever of the transaction.
On that point, a few years back, I can recall owing a fairly small sum of money to a fellow who, let's just say, was "not exactly the brightest light bulb in the room". I would guess his Net Worth was whatever cash he had on his person at the moment. Nevertheless, I wanted a record I paid him and more than the his usual of getting some people to witness the transaction. So what did I do? I wrote him out a check for the amount owed (about $200), had him endorse the check, and then I gave him his cash. Afterwards, I negotiated the check through my bank account. Ergo; proof positive I paid him.
Finally, I think it is no secret here that Mr. Presley and I will be meeting up for Dinner this Sunday in town (or it certainly isn't so far as I'm concerned). Here I will bring cash for my side of the Dinner check as I know Mr. Presley, along with many others here, sure love their AGR Points. For myself, the only reward points I have ever redeemed are from hotels, but with reward plans with four major chains, and with only 15 nights expected away from home this year, I don't expect to see too many of such in my immediate future. Others such as from two cards I hold and United Mileage Plus, I just give 'em away to charity. As soon as I learn Amtrak has hooked up with a charity for AGR points, that is where those of such I have will go.
Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :
I know a couple young people who use credit/debit cards, but don't keep track of their expenses, and before you know it, here comes an overdraft letter from their bank, and they have no idea whatsoever why they got the letter -- no, someone mnust have "hacked" into their account. These same people pay for everything else in cash, but never bother to get receipts, so they can never track their expenses.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Of interest, Brightline doesn't know what currency is: