Is there any other VIA Rail train than the Ocean (Montreal-Halifax) that employs Park dome-obs cars on the end of a train otherwise made up of Renaissance cars?
Thanks.
Posted by TBlack (Member # 181) on :
Aren't the only trains with Park cars the Ocean and the Canadian? So, maybe the answer is no?
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
The Ocean does use a Park Car on the end with some sort of transitional car between it and the Renaissance cars. I don't believe there are any other VIA trains where mismatched equipment is operated.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
We rode the Ocean before Renaissance cars arrived. It had a Park Car as did the combined Chaleur - the train to Gaspe - that split off in eastern Canada. Not sure if that train still operates or if is only Renaissance now.
Posted by ghCBNS (Member # 3093) on :
Only the Ocean and Canadian currently use Park Cars......and possibly the former Skeena between Jasper-Prince George-Prince Rupert.
The last run of a Park Car on the Ocean for this season is Thanksgiving, October 8. It will be back for Christmas then returns again next June.
Here’s the transition between the Ocean’s Ren & Park cars
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
Just got back from a R/T on the Ocean. On the way to Halifax we splurged for Room A on the Park car. Best accommodations we ever had. On the way back we took a Renaissance bedroom.
Renaissance Pluses: Putting down the beds for night is easy. One can lock the rooms from outside with keycards. Equipment in excellent shape. Walking from car to car is easier because the passageways are wide, the diaphragms tight, and the footplates well covered.
Negatives: Lots of pitching and rolling at speed because the cars are much lighter than the old stainless steel heavyweights. Corridors so narrow two people cannot pass; one must wait at one end and yield right of way. Compartment door handles stick out into the corridor so short people like me must keep their elbows high. Few grab irons at doorways for boarding and debarking.
Posted by ghCBNS (Member # 3093) on :
quote:Originally posted by ghCBNS: Only the Ocean and Canadian currently use Park Cars......and possibly the former Skeena between Jasper-Prince George-Prince Rupert.
Yes the Jasper-Prince Rupert train does have a Park Car but the last runs for the season are this week.
I’ve seen Parks on the Montreal-Jonquiere/Senneterre trains and they did run to Churchill a couple of years ago.
.....and in the early 2000s they were also on the short lived Enterprise overnight service between Montreal and Toronto.
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
Having determined (thanks to the habitues of this forum!) that only one VIA train runs a Park car behind a Renaissance trainset, I've posted the trip report on TrainWeb.
As always, corrections are welcome.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Mr. Kisor's comments regarding passenger amenities and/or lack thereof would suggest the Renaissance cars are simply warmed over in Teal Green British Rail Mark IV Sleepers that entered service over there during 1985. I rode such Londor/Euston-Glasgow during my last 1986 trip.
One certainty; no US road would ever accept those "carriages" in interchange.
Posted by ghCBNS (Member # 3093) on :
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: Mr. Kisor's comments regarding passenger amenities and/or lack thereof would suggest the Renaissance cars are simply warmed over in Teal Green British Rail Mark IV Sleepers that entered service over there during 1985. I rode such Londor/Euston-Glasgow during my last 1986 trip.
No.....not “warmed over” Mark IVs!
The Renaissance sleepers have 10 two berth Bedrooms and each has a private annex with toilet. Six of the rooms also have private showers. Click on 360 degree photo here:
The British Mark IVs only have a sink in each room and the facilities are down the hall!
These are quiet, smooth riding cars. The Budd equipment is getting old and certainly shows its age with the constant shake, rattle and vibrate. I’m on the Ocean often and will take a Ren over Budd any day.
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: One certainty; no US road would ever accept those "carriages" in interchange.
Who cares! The cars have been extensively modified to meet Transport Canada regulations and that’s what counts. And for someone who says they haven’t been on VIA since the 1980s (steam heat era).....can you really comment on current VIA equipment?
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
My wife and I would rather sleep in a Renaissance bedroom than in an Amtrak Superliner roomette, that's for sure. And the Renaissance cars are in much better shape than the Superliners. (The Park car was just about pristine.)
We would prefer Superliner bedrooms to Renaissance bedrooms IF (and this is a big if) the bedroom is in good shape. Often it is threadbare and scruffy and stuff doesn't work.
Park car bedrooms are unbeatable.
As for the riding qualities, both of the Park car attendants said that among the biggest complaints of those who don't like the lightweight Renaissance cars is that they rock and roll and jolt far more than do the heavier Budd cars. I found that to be true, but not objectionably so.
Posted by Jerome Nicholson (Member # 3116) on :
quote:Originally posted by ghCBNS:
quote:Originally posted by ghCBNS: Only the Ocean and Canadian currently use Park Cars......and possibly the former Skeena between Jasper-Prince George-Prince Rupert.
Yes the Jasper-Prince Rupert train does have a Park Car but the last runs for the season are this week.
I’ve seen Parks on the Montreal-Jonquiere/Senneterre trains and they did run to Churchill a couple of years ago.
.....and in the early 2000s they were also on the short lived Enterprise overnight service between Montreal and Toronto.
There was also a short - lived experiment called the "Bras d'Or", that went from Halifax to Sydney using a Park, one Skyline, and a coach.
Posted by ghCBNS (Member # 3093) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jerome Nicholson: There was also a short - lived experiment called the "Bras d'Or", that went from Halifax to Sydney using a Park, one Skyline, and a coach.
The former Chaleur occasionally had a Park and still runs with a Skyline (the train is currently being turned at New Carlisle and not running thru to Gaspe)
The Atlantic had a Park until the mid '90s and was New England's only Dome for a number of years. Nice to see one again on the Adirondack!
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
One day last week the westbound Ocean went into the hole early in the morning somewhere east of Quebec City and another westbound train passed on the main. I thought this would be the Montreal-Gaspe train (a k a the Chaleur), but the consist seemed to be an unbroken line of Renaissance cars behind a P42.
I'd thought the Montreal-Gaspe train was made up of stainless steel cars. Were my eyes deceiving me?
Hmm?
Posted by ghCBNS (Member # 3093) on :
quote:Originally posted by Henry Kisor: One day last week the westbound Ocean went into the hole early in the morning somewhere east of Quebec City and another westbound train passed on the main. I thought this would be the Montreal-Gaspe train (a k a the Chaleur), but the consist seemed to be an unbroken line of Renaissance cars behind a P42.
I'd thought the Montreal-Gaspe train was made up of stainless steel cars. Were my eyes deceiving me?
Hmm?
If you were east of Quebec City.....I have no idea what train this would have been. The former Chaleur is combined with the Ocean between Matapedia and Montreal and yes it is a Budd Stainless Steel consist. Are you sure it wasn’t the ‘eastbound’ Ren Ocean? They meet near Rimouski around 1:45am? But it would have a F40 for power.
If you were west of Quebec City (Charny) it could have been a Quebec City to Montreal corridor train overtaking the Ocean. They are Ren equipped with a P42.
Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :
Henry -- I enjoyed your report and the photos!! Keep up the good work! It is interesting how VIA combines the British Renaissance cars with the Canadian cars and still makes a workable train out of the combination with no major mechanical problems.
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
ghCBNS, I think you're right. I probably saw that Ren/P42 train west of Charny, not east, and it was a Charny-Montreal train, not the Chaleur.
Posted by David (Member # 3) on :
[/qb][/QUOTE]...
If you were west of Quebec City (Charny) it could have been a Quebec City to Montreal corridor train overtaking the Ocean. They are Ren equipped with a P42. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Depending on how late the Ocean is, the Quebec-Montreal train that overtakes it is either #21 or #23. Even if the Ocean is on time, #21 has to overtake it - between Charny and Drummondville according to the timetable.
Regarding the riding quality of Renaissance equipment, the problem is not with the cars but with the track, which is usually rubbish. This equipment is meant to operate at 125 mph on good tracks. Indeed, on my annual trips to Britain I ride several trains with similar cars from the same manufacturer and even over the bogies (trucks) the ride is smooth. Renaissance cars can sway a lot at the ends, like all equipment does, but on reasonably good track it is less noticeable. At modest speeds on the Newcastle sub. - notorious for poor track - the Park car bounced and clunked something terrible. My Renaissance room was much smoother as it has been on all trips in any season with the mixed equipment.
My wife and I also splurged on the drawing room in the Park car for the trip to Halifax. We came back in two Renaissance bedrooms. My fondness for the Ren. cars does not extend to the upper berth - well, I don't like any upper berth actually. In well over 30 trips in Ren. sleepers we have only once shared a room. For a supplement of only 15% over the per person rate for a double, you can have your own room. This has got to be one of VIA's best bargains.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
Thanks for the interesting report and excellent photos. One thing struck me about the interior of the Park car - it looks less inviting than the combination of upholstered swivel chairs and settees in the PPC. And there really should be a rear facing love seat at the rear of the car as was common many decades ago. Quite necessary for the railfans, if a bit anti social.
But without a doubt, having a 'real' observation and dome still running in 2012 is a treat not to be missed.
The Renaissance cars look like they would be fine for a quick overnight. But the smaller window and inability to have facing chairs (as do both Amtrak roomettes and bedrooms) seems to be a drawback, at least if you have your spouse along.
Posted by ghCBNS (Member # 3093) on :
VIA just announced that a Dome Car is again running year ‘round on the Ocean. It appears that in the off-season when Touring Class is not offered.....it will be available to all Sleeper Class passengers. The past couple of runs have had a “Park Car” but speculation is it will be a “Skyline” added to the usual Renaissance consist with the smaller dining section of the Skyline replacing the full diner for the winter.....something it is quite capable of doing.
Click on here “Your Sleeper Class Ticket Includes”:
And for the first time in awhile VIA is again offering Express Deals on the Ocean for the winter. I saw the Ocean last weekend.....the first on the new tri-weekly schedule and it appeared quite full. It’s still running on Fridays and Sundays when the majority are travelling.....especially students.
And looking for a “Silver Lining” here (or should I say “Silver & Blue).....if you go back 20 years, it was only after the Canadian was reduced to a tri-weekly schedule and the “Silver and Blue Class” amenities added that we started seeing the those 20 > 30 cars trains. Hopefully the Ocean will see a re-launch of a few of these types of amenities also now with the Dome being added again.
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
There was an AP story yesterday saying that Amtrak has been talking to VIA about borrowing some of its cars for the duration of the flood cleanup. If this should happen, what equipment might this be? Stainless steel Budd coaches from the trains that have been cut? Surely not the Renaissance cars?
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Here is a link to the Associated Press report noted by Mr. Kisor:
Boardman said he has also had discussions with Marc Laliberte, the president and chief executive of Via Rail Canada in Montreal, about borrowing trains for Amtrak's New York state service. If that can be arranged, it would free up other Amtrak trains that could be sent to hard-hit New Jersey to provide commuter service, he said
For benefit of TRAINS subscribers, here is a link to their coverage of the development.
All told: consider the report confirmed.
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
I suspect that Trains Newswire used the AP report, and that the Newswire aggregates national news from other sources rather than reporting it with its own staff. Original reporting of this kind would likely be way too labor-intensive and costly for a specialized magazine.
Posted by jp1822 (Member # 2596) on :
Park Cars are used on the Canadian and Prince Rupert Train (Skeena) year round.
Seasonally, Park Cars have been added to the Ocean for augmented sleeper service.
I've traveled on the train to Gaspe (Chaleur) and that train has always had a Skyline Car, as opposed to a Park Car. Even when "all Budd consist" there was typically one Skyline and Park Car for the Ocean and then a Skyline for the Chaleur, but no Park Car for the Chaleur.
There are enough Park Cars to go around to offer the Chaleur a Park Car, and even the Hudson Bay train.
Seems VIA has been keeping a pretty tight grip on when and where there Park Cars are used. They are the best cars in the fleet. Even the train to Prince Rupert had a Skyline Car substituting from time to time over the past year or so. Reason that was given was the refurbishment project of the Park Cars.
Now with all the cutbacks, VIA should be able to operate more Park Cars than what they had been offering - especially since the reduced frequencies are bound to attract more tourist riders (and reduction of regular intercity Canadians).
Posted by jp1822 (Member # 2596) on :
Doesn't seem the borrowing of VIA equipment is needed now, per NJT.
They are facing major infrastructure damage first and foremost, so reduced equipment on lines that are not operating seems to be getting NJT through at present.
And then hopefully they are mobilizing the any cars that need repairs, which seem to be considerable. However, NJT has been pretty flush with equipment lately - especially with the multilevel cars being delivered.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Mr. JP's comment regarding major infrastructure damage can only be described as an understatement:
From this linked map, it would appear that only the PRR (Amtrak NEC) and the Jersey Central are back. While the NJTransit site suggests that some kind of service will operate over the Erie starting next Monday, the Long Branch, and Lackawanna will be out for some time to come:
One can only hope that the "indefinite" status is attributed to reasons other than "less than workmanlike" design and construction of the fairly new electricifation for those lines. On the Long Branch, such would easily appear to be the case, but on the Lackawanna????
Posted by David (Member # 3) on :
quote:Originally posted by jp1822: P ... There are enough Park Cars to go around to offer the Chaleur a Park Car, and even the Hudson Bay train. ...
This summer VIA had only one usable Park car as a spare. There are 14 in the fleet, but four of them (and eight Château sleepers) have had their interiors ripped out at Avalon in Wisconsin and are awaiting rebuilding for the long-promised luxury service. At the present time three of these Park cars and six Château sleepers are at the Toronto Maintenance Centre. The other semi-rebuilt Park car and two sleepers have been reported in Quebec City where they will be rebuilt. This summer the Canadian required four Park cars, the Prince Rupert service (formerly named the Skeena) needed two and the Ocean had three. Obviously fewer will be needed for the off-peak service but there are only 10, so there aren't too many spares even in winter. With the new schedule in the east, the New Carlisle train (one hopes it will again be a Gaspe train!) needs two consists.
