Interesting commentary but not really based on reality. But I do agree that the $49 per day cruises encourage a lowering of standards.
Due to my husband's illness we do not have a cruise or a train trip scheduled for the first time in years. Makes me feel incomplete.
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
Not based on reality? Miss Vicki, could you explain why? I'm curious. This fellow is a heavyweight travel writer and is widely respected. Is he misrepresenting facts?
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
First the disclaimer; although I have been on six cruises and two Trans-At sailings in this life and "grew up" sailing small boats (including competitive racing), I am no particular fan of the genre'. My reference to "Love Tubs" should tell it all.
As such, I think the referenced article is objective, fair and balanced. The best truism within such is that of "if it sounds too good to be true, then it probably is". Too many people go on cruises expecting a life of luxury and, for those so inclined, instant romance.
It ain't there, volks.
Excluding some of the "five star" premium restaurants now found shipboard (they "weren't when I last took a cruise during 1988) comments on the "standard fare' should be limited to "you will be served tasty food in an efficient manner"; forget all the tripe about "master chefs striving for culinary excellence". But reality should set in and recognize that there are three consecutive 1000 person banquets each evening aboard a 100KGRT cruise ship.
But I must say the quantity is there; the quality? well.....
As far as people to meet, I will in all fairness acknowledge I did meet some great people aboard, and even several resulted in "follow up" social activity. But it is still a hit or miss - no different than an Amtrak LD journey.
To continue, I have heard adverse comments from people I know not exactly from a seafaring background saying "oh the boat rocked around so much and I got sick". Volks this is a maritime vessel and the sea can be a mighty inhospitable place (I've been in a Cat III on a 36ft boat). Follow this work from the repertory; I think Mendelssohn wrote a very descriptive piece. Even the Caribbean is not always a mill pond.
Now regarding the reference to the legal no man's land any vessel on the high seas represents, there have been enough incidents reported by the media to suggest that there is foundation to this contention and the cruise-lines, even though US Corporations, will use any and all means from such to minimize their liability from claims - even the ones that are legitimate.
Now I know and respect members here get enjoyment from the cruising experience, and more power to you guys and gals. But I still think that there is too much oversell of the product to "John Q".
Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: Excluding some of the "five star" premium restaurants now found shipboard (they "weren't when I last took a cruise during 1988) comments on the "standard fare' should be limited to "you will be served tasty food in an efficient manner"; forget all the tripe about "master chefs striving for culinary excellence". But reality should set in and recognize that there are three consecutive 1000 person banquets each evening.
I thought cruise ships were known for their excellent food. Is this not the case any more?
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
It does amaze me that those on a cruise seem to consider the maritime aspects of the voyage as something of a nuisance interrupting their nonstop eating, drinking, shopping. I enjoy the days at sea every bit as much as those in port.
On my one transatlantic voyage years ago, we encountered heavy seas in the North Atlantic. One memorable evening we were watching a movie in the lounge sitting on wooden chairs on a hardwood floor. With every big swell all the chairs would slide to one side and then back to the original spot. Everything thought it was great fun, but the movie was soon stopped.
But with a family Disney voyage in the near future, we'll see what the love tubs are all about.
Thanks to a son working for the company, we were able to experience a couple 120 passenger expedition type voyages where the food was outstanding, the passengers fascinating, and the atmosphere comfortably casual. On one the captain took us to any spot he thought looked interesting for glacier or wildlife viewing during our inland passage voyage. On another the zodiac made the rounds to those in the water snorkeling. He wasn't checking on us, just bringing mimosas to, no doubt, keep our strength up.
You do get what you pay for.
Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
I would love to have access to buffet/cafeteria type food if it's good! Certain resorts in Vegas have figured out how to do it perfectly well (Wynn, the new one at Caesar's which is out of this world, and Bellagio). I can't imagine what it must be like on a cruise where you order your food, and then get up and walk away after eating without getting a bill. That sounds like so much fun!
A new magazine came in the mail a few weeks ago from AAA called, "Sojourns". They have cruises listed that depart and return from San Francisco, which would be perfect for me. No air transportation to worry about, and no hotel to worry about. I could just take BART from my house and head up to the ship. They have Mexican Riviera cruises, but I would want to go when it's warmer (although maybe it's warm there during our winter? I really don't know). But I saw those and they looked interesting, although the length is a bit longer than what I'm looking to do. I still want a 3-4 night trial before I do something longer. For that, I'll probably have to leave out of FL in order to go somewhere warm.
Posted by HopefulRailUser (Member # 4513) on :
quote:Originally posted by Henry Kisor: Not based on reality? Miss Vicki, could you explain why? I'm curious. This fellow is a heavyweight travel writer and is widely respected. Is he misrepresenting facts?
I think so. The paragraph that starts out the criticism is not factual. I can't seem to make it copy and paste here.
But the registering in foreign countries implying an effort to avoid taxes, proper safety rules, proper wages, is faulty. Just reading Captain Albert's blog gives one an idea of the many rules that must be met for any cruise line that uses a US port.
And wages are not substandard. Frank is on the Atlantic right now and not available to comment but I think he would also have some input here.
There is also not much nickel and diming going on although there are more extra charges than there used to be. But we have no trouble keeping the additional charges down to a minimum.
And yes Smitty, the food is wonderful. I sure hope we can get you on a cruise some day. The Mexican Riviera is always warm, just do it!
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
It's an interesting blog, indeed, but Captain Albert is an employee of a cruise line, and the cruise line sponsors the blog. Can we accept such a source as an impartial and objective vendor of the facts?
In the railroad world we wouldn't take at face value everything an Amtrak employee said on an Amtrak-sponsored website, would we?
Just sayin'.
Posted by HopefulRailUser (Member # 4513) on :
He's not making up the info about the many audits and tests they are required to perform.
Posted by Mike Smith (Member # 447) on :
Wait a minute Henry.
Why would the Captain be a less impartial and objective vendor of the facts than, say... the New York Times, Washington Post, Chicago Tribune, or the LA Times?
Is there anything he posted that you would disagree with?
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
Vicki and Mike: I think what the Captain writes is very interesting. Matter of fact, I enjoy his stuff. Learned a lot from it, too. He's a sprightly writer. I found nothing to disagree with and much to delight in. And I enjoyed his ship, the Statendam, two years ago.
It's what he doesn't address that is the issue, as it would be with any corporate-sponsored publication. They exist ultimately for the sake of their stockholders, and they would do nothing to cast an unflattering light on the company or the industry. It's the nature of the public relations beast.
True journalism tries to seek the truth, at least about things that have nothing to do with its owners, and sometimes succeeds. In the past it often did, though today that is much less common as newspapers shrink and go under.
Posted by HopefulRailUser (Member # 4513) on :
I look at Captain Albert's blog as a description of his duties. I know that the ship has had problems with GI illness, plumbing,etc. and he never mentions those things. And he certainly has the corporate image in mind which of course is his image as well.
As to the crew salaries and benefits, he does not address them nor would I expect him to as that is not the purpose of his blog.
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
Here's some interesting independent journalism about the cruise industry:
Those are funny links, Henry, especially the USA one. Those poor mistreated workers on the USA flagged ship enjoyed their $52 or $116 in overtime back pay for the last 3 years. I wonder how many millions of dollars their lawyers got?
And the rest of the links appeared to be people whining incessantly about how mean cruise ships are to their employees, despite the fact that each employee wanted to be hired and they accepted the salary they were hired at and continued to renew their contractual employment offers for numerous seasons.
The biggest problem the whiners had was the unions were not getting any new money from these workers. The unions didn't get their "fair share" from these foreign workers.
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
Interestingly I have finally found a common bond with Mike Smith. Well put. And all the anecdotal commentary, especially from the personal injury law firm, does not impress me.
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
Vicki, the article on the personal injury law firm site first appeared in the South Florida Sun-Sentinel. Sure, the law firm has a dog in the fight, but not the Sun-Sentinel.
Posted by Mike Smith (Member # 447) on :
Uh-oh Vicky... Maybe the world will end in 10 days!!! Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
(Throwing up hands, muttering to self.) You can lead cruise fans to the water, but you can't make them think. Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
When I click on this thread, I get banner ads from Carnival featuring an 'almost everything's included' 7-day cruise starting at $479.
Restrictions apply.
Posted by Judy McFarland (Member # 4435) on :
You're traveling with the wrong crowd, David. I get the banner ad for the Senior Luxury Cruises on The SilverSea. Apparently they have me confused with some of those wealthy seniors! LOL
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
I don't get any ads at all. Wonder if that has something to do with Adblock on Google Chrome? Or maybe the cruise lines saw me coming.
Posted by Mike Smith (Member # 447) on :
Henry, my wife & I had fun on our Carnival cruise from Galveston to Cozumel earlier this year, and we anticipate a great time this coming June 2, when we go from Seattle to Skagway, Alaska & back, after going first class on Amtrak from Houston to Seattle.
Posted by Mike Smith (Member # 447) on :
And Henry, the Sun-Sentinal definitely had a dog in that fight. They are all about sensational news that will keep the gullible public buying their paper.
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
Mike, I hope you have as good a time on your train/cruise trip as I plan to next February: bedrooms on the Chief going & coming and 14 days on H-A's Zaandam to Hawaii and back. (I'll be sure to file a sensational article, full of sun, sin, strife and scandal, so that you can continue to heap contumely upon the reporter rather than addressing the report itself.)
Posted by Mike Smith (Member # 447) on :
I will critique 1 report for you. Which one would you like for me to tear apart? Posted by David (Member # 3) on :
As someone who prefers being at sea than in port, I lament the almost non-existent liner voyages. Other than Cunard's Queen Mary 2 doing Atlantic crossings, there are only some positioning voyages and segments of world cruises available for the liner enthusiast. There have been so many changes in cruising since I first went to sea 40 years ago. While many of these changes are for the better, such as better cabins - all with toilet and shower - and the availability of private balconies, not everything can be said to be better.
Whilst trains, planes and many hotels maintain a class system, this has been frowned upon by a lot of passengers and most ship owners. There are a few deluxe ships (usually fairly small vessels) that can be said to be all first-class. But generally, any large one-class ship is going to be tourist-class in its ambiance, food and amenities, although the cabins may very well be first-class. That does not necessarily have to be poor. In the old days I had some excellent crossings in Tourist on Cunard and once on the French Line. Cunard maintains some tradition in having two levels of premium accommodation and restaurants: Princess Grill and Queen's Grill. This "class" of travel is not cheap and the standards (including dress standards, fortunately) are still quite high.
In real terms, cruising is cheaper today than it was 20 and maybe 30 years ago. But gone are the cheap 1970s 25 cent gin and tonic and $2.00 bottle of wine. Even considering the current value of a 1970s dollar, alcohol is a big money-maker for the modern ship operators, as is the sale of shore excursions and the cost of medical care. About 25 years ago we paid the Queen Elizabeth 2 hospital $10 to cure our son of sea-sickness. The minimum charge now for a doctor's visit on a Cunard ship is $90, so I'm told. With the US company Carnival owning over 50% of all passenger ships, there is a certain sameness to the on-board experience. British, German, Dutch, Italian ships, etc., no longer have most of the crew from their country of registry - if indeed they are still registered in their traditional ports. They are, essentially, themed ships. Even Cunard and P&O have recently dropped the UK registry in favour of Bermuda. I'm not saying that's a bad thing; I noticed no difference on my Cunard crossings since the change. But I am suspicious of many "flags of convenience." Like most fans of British ships I may not be happy with the "Carnivalisation" of Cunard and P&O in some ways, I am grateful to Carnival for buying those two historic steamship lines and allowing them to be managed from England. Without the huge investment Carnival made in new ships, there would be no Cunard today and very little of P&O.
Not counting liner voyages, our last cruise was 22 years ago: a fortnight from England to Norway. Most shore excursions are, understandably, by bus, which does not appeal to me. On that cruise two of our excursions were by train, including one train that came right to the ship's side.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
That is strange that the class differences have mostly been eliminated. They certainly live on in train and plane travel. I guess it's easier for the passenger and cruise line just to dedicate an entire ship or brand to a particular class. So you go Carnival at the 'coach' end of things or Silversea for first glass.
Thank goodness tradition lives on at Cunard.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Sunday's New York Times Travel section was directed towards cruise travel:
Most illuminating is this "Q&A" with an experienced cruise traveler; I also find it interesting that he started to take cruises during 1985, which is within the range of when I decided during 1988 "I've had enough of this":
I find the report of a Queen Mary X-ing made during WNA, and in what I guess is Cabin Class, to be quite informative. Trans-At X-ings are a "been there done that" with me:
I enjoyed both pieces, although I thought Mr. Brooks came across as shallow and Blimpish. Mr. Garner, on the other hand, is splendidly acerbic as well as wicked. Few journalists would think to suss out the information that on the QM 2 there are four refrigerated lockers for those who kick the bucket at sea and if that's not enough there's always the ice cream freezer.
On our cruise shortly I will be sure to ask the ice cream server if anyone's died aboard ship recently.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Oh well Mr. Kisor; I know it is hard not to be envious that there is at least one paper still around with budget to bankroll adventures like "Mary Trans At" - and they "drew the line" with First Class and/or "in season".
Somehow, I doubt if yours has, or ever had, such.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
quote:Originally posted by David: . . . the cost of medical care. About 25 years ago we paid the Queen Elizabeth 2 hospital $10 to cure our son of sea-sickness. The minimum charge now for a doctor's visit on a Cunard ship is $90, so I'm told.
This I found astounding. OK, I have never cruised and probably never will, but I would have thought availability of medical care would be part of the necessary facilities and would be gratis.
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: Oh well Mr. Kisor; I know it is hard not to be envious that there is at least one paper still around with budget to bankroll adventures like "Mary Trans At" - and they "drew the line" with First Class and/or "in season".
Somehow, I doubt if yours has, or ever had, such.
Actually the Sun-Times did have a travel budget like that when Rupert owned it. Part of his strategy was to throw travel money at the paper, even to book review editors. Unfortunately another part of his strategy was to populate the top echelons of the staff with drunken downmarket Brit and Aussie editors, and we all know what happened then.
Posted by sbalax (Member # 2801) on :
On most cruise ships medication for motion sickness is available gratis at Guest Relations. In really bad seas green apples and soda crackers are usually put out in a number of locations around the ship.
Mr. Harris, I don't understand why you would expect medical care would be free. Is it at home?
Most travelers take out insurance to cover the things that might go wrong on any trip. On our last cruise (11/12) I made two visits to the Medical Center on Celebrity Constellation to have a small infection dealt with. The total bill was $357 which my insurance paid for completely.
More recently my brother and sister-in-law were on a Mediterranean cruise on RCCL when she came down with pneumonia. The ship's doctors decided she would be better treated ashore so she entered a hospital in Messina, Italy where she stayed for six nights. The local port agent for RCCL was very helpful and the insurance not only arranged for transportation home in Business Class but also for a nurse to accompany them from the airport in Catania to their front door in Nashville. The cost of the insurance was $139.00 per person.
Frank in cold (for us) SBA
Posted by Mike Smith (Member # 447) on :
I enjoyed reading the Garner piece (link emailed to me). I did not notice it was a NYT piece. At least they do publish something useful and/or enjoyable every now and then.
And Mr Norman, normally I would assume you meant the NYT, but that paper is in bankruptcy or within weeks of being bankrupt.
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
I wish I had known that antipuke potions are available free on board. I wouldn't have spent good money yesterday at the drug store for sufficient Dramamine and Bonine.
Not for me but for the Mrs.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
What David related, and immediately noted by Mr. Harris, is how the cruise lines appear to price their product nowadays.
They quote you a base fare barely enough to cover "passage" or that of the capital costs of the vessel, fuel (don't they know how to hit you up last minute for a "fuel surcharge"?), salaries and wages of officers, engineers, and seamen. The "hotel" staff lives on and for their tips. Everything else is "the extras".
Noted in The Times material is that a shipboard bill can equal that of the passage itself. Even an airline cannot make that claim with their "al a carte" pricing model today.
I just love how the "Shor-Ex" salesman gets to dress up as an officer to peddle his wares; I guess his wares do offer some greater degree of personal security beyond that of those Love Tubs have a way of sailing at Sundown.
The alcohol they sell on the high seas is tax free from any jurisdiction (last time I checked, God doesn't impose a liquor tax), do their prices reflect that? Even I don't know of the finite points, I understand that there are shipboard casino rules regarding table games to ensure a greater house advantage than on land - and slots? who'se around to ensure they pay much of all.
It is all just like going to a shopping mall - a smorgasbord designed to painlessly relieve you of your $$$$$.
One woman came my way in this life; she loved cruising (fairly wealthy may I add) another (not overly wealthy) loved Vegas (her Daughter lived in San Bernardino; good chance for a meet-up)- even though she never gamed (save a roll of nickels down a slot each visit), Had I not X'd paths with either, I doubt if I would ever been on a cruise or been to Vegas.
Posted by sbalax (Member # 2801) on :
Just as the airlines reward their most frequent travelers with a variety of perks (Complimentary upgrades, admission to a private lounge, etc.) the cruise lines do the same.
We have reached a point at RCCL (Royal Caribbean, Celebrity and Azamara) where we no longer pay for cocktails in the evening (Open bar from 5:00PM to 7:00PM) or in the morning (Private Lounge for continental breakfast and Mimosas or Bloody Marys).
We also get a shareholder's OBC (On Board Credit) and usually a pretty substantial one from the online agency we book with. On our last cruise (A Transatlantic from Southampton to Miami on Celebrity Constellation in December) we left the ship with a small balance left on the account. It was credited to my credit card the next day.
Henry, you might want to check with Vicki about the availability of free sea sickness remedies on HAL!
Frank in sunny but cool SBA.
Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
And I still haven't cruised...... Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Is it just me, or does it seem like Carnival ships have a lot more issues than the others? It seems as if every time there is a "love tub" (in Normanese) floating adrift somewhere with some type of mechanical problem, it's a Carnival ship. At least I can say with confidence that my first cruise will not be on Carnival----I'm shooting for a non-rowdy, more upper-class type of thing.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
CNN reports that hulk will be towed to Mobile rather than a much closer port in Mexico and that the passengers can not expect to disembark until Thursday Feb 15:
Who knows why the closer Mexican port was ruled out; immigration issues (one would hope they would be waived in an emergency), access to air transport (what are the "won't flys" to do?), or possibly if a Mexican national was aboard, the vessel could be seized to satisfy any potential claims. But alas, I'm not an Admiralty lawyer nor do I play one on TV.
Wonder why I have heard Carnival referred as "the K-Mart of the cruise business".
But, lest we forget, Carnival has their upscale brands as well - notably, Holland America, Cunard, and Windstar. The question must be raised for how long can these vessels sailing under their "upscale" brands be immune from these "gremlins" affecting their mass market brand?
Finally, I'll never say my cruising days were devoid of any pleasant memories; but today, "it's just something I did in my past".
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
Let us not forget the Norovirus Fleet. It is always in the news.
Posted by Charles Reuben (Member # 2263) on :
In defense of cruise ships, and cruising in general, I would like to submit, for your delight and edification, a story I wrote that was published some time ago in the Los Angeles Times:
I certainly recognize that any fleet that flies under the flag of Liberia (as most cruise ships do) are suspect. Truly, your life ain't worth a nickel if you are careless but if your budget is limited and you have your wits about you, a cruise can give you your best return on your vacation dollar.
But when it comes to real sailing, this ain't it, as GBN wisely noted.
Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
quote:Originally posted by Henry Kisor: Let us not forget the Norovirus Fleet. It is always in the news.
Princess?
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
All of the cruise lines fall victim to the bug. I didn't mean to single out any one.
quote: I certainly recognize that any fleet that flies under the flag of Liberia (as most cruise ships do) are suspect.
I don't believe we have ever sailed on a cruise ship registered in Liberia. Celebrity's ships are all registered in Malta and fly the Maltese flag. Holland America's ships are registered in the Netherlands and fly the Dutch flag. I believe the Cunard ships are now registered in Bermuda ending a long tradition of British registry.
Frank in cool but sunny and clear SBA
Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
quote:Originally posted by Henry Kisor: All of the cruise lines fall victim to the bug. I didn't mean to single out any one.
Whoa! That is a nasty virus. I didn't realize how powerful it is.
Posted by HopefulRailUser (Member # 4513) on :
Free sea sickness Rx on HAL ships, yes indeed. Henry, your trip must be coming up soon as the Hawaii season ends next month. Have a wonderful time.
Also note that the disabled ship is being towed to Mobile because the current has taken it 90 miles north and Mobile is now just as close. Plus 900 of the passengers do not have passports so that issue will be resolved.
Conditions on the ship sound dreadful. It was supposed to be a short four day cruise. Eeek!
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
Well, I suppose there are some ardent cruise fans on the ship that look at the extra time as a bonus! But 4 or 5 extra days would be a bit much, even for some of us who enjoy a long delay on a cross country train trip.
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
I was a bit surprised to read Vicki's post about 900 of the passengers not having a passport.
Here's what I found on the Carnival website:
CRUISE TRAVEL U.S. Citizens Carnival highly recommends all guests travel with a passport (valid for at least six months beyond completion of travel). Although a passport is not required for U.S. citizens taking cruises that begin & end in the same U.S. port, travelling with a passport enhances your disembarkation experience, as delays may be expected upon your return to the U.S. if you do not have one. Additionally, passports make it easier for you to fly from the U.S. to a foreign port should you miss your scheduled port of embarkation, or need to fly back to the U.S. for emergency reasons.
I guess the "highly recommends" went right over their heads. Or, more likely, they didn't read any of the pre-cruise information. I realize this was supposed to be a four night "fun cruise" but I can't imagine leaving the country without a passport.
Another point we should all be aware of is that the TSA is becoming much tighter about the name on your ticket or reservation matching EXACTLY the name on your ID. Most recently we were hassled by the TSA at LAX because our boarding cards had first and last names (One was a nickname -- Norm for Norman) -- but our passports included middle names. London based crew on the aircraft confirmed that they have had passengers denied boarding because of this.
Frank in sunny but still cool SBA
Posted by Mike Smith (Member # 447) on :
When we went on that cruise last year, we had to have our passports, or they would not let us on the ship. It goes to Cozumel.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
However, now that the State of The Union has been delivered, and that the pop;-guns have been silenced in the San Bernardino Mountains, the arrival of this vessel in Mobile will be the media event of the day.
4PM ET (2100 GMT) is the H-hour as of now; wonder what the cable news outlets will be airing at that time?
Finally, I'm waiting for someone here to ponder the absurdity why wasn't an Amtrak "rescue train" assembled to move everyone at their choosing either to New Orleans or even Galveston?
addendum 752A CT; so far, none of the three major cable news outlets have started a "countdown clock" for the docking; I'm surprised.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
GBN, Amtrak has a hard time adding extra cars let alone special trains. But you can bet the L&N would have done so.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Wow Mr. Palmland, the L&N could have come up with sixty some Coaches, home or foreign, on, I guess, three days notice?
From any of the news clips, it appears that the sea has been calm, but apparently a transfer of the passengers, by means of launches, to another vessel was ruled out. I defer to our "Mariners" around here for comments on that.
It was probably just as well that the vessel is being towed to a US port. As I noted earlier, the possibility of a civil seizure is certainly greater in a foreign jurisdiction, the passengers who did not have Passports (I haven't had one in twenty years; just no need) would have been under "house arrest", and the simple logistics of arranging air transportation from Progreso, YU, let alone busses to get from the docks the nearest airport, MMMO - Merida, (isn't a bus ride in Mexico scary enough; Miss Vickie and Mr. Art, one of those makes that taxicab ride we had together here look tame) would have been overwhelming.
So even if "a day was lost", it likely was just as well for all parties.
Stay tuned to the cable news outlet of your choice.
Addendum: "the latest"; one must wonder if the upscale Carnival brands frequented by several around here are immune form this treatment?
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: Wow Mr. Palmland, the L&N could have come up with sixty some Coaches, home or foreign, on, I guess, three days notice?
No, not even the L&N could produce that many of their own. But it would have been possible to put 3 or 4 trains together with assistance from the Pullman Co. and whoever handled the Galveston passengers, MoPac or SP I guess.
With the ship wallowing in the gulf there would have been time to deadhead them in from Louisville, New Orleans and wherever Pullman had them stacked up. After Christmas holidays in the 60's I saw two 15/18 car Sugar Bowl specials go through Flomaton, AL on its way to the Crescent city. All cars were either L&N blue or pullman green (and maybe one or two PRR).
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Has anyone else watching news coverage of the hulk's return to Mobile noted the "CSX concert"?
It certainly appears that there are enough trains passing through Mobile nowadays (and CSX horns are very "musical"), but alas, it does not appear that any of the news outlets have camera operators who are railfans.
(I leave it to others to start playing the "why can't they bring back Sunset East" song).
Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
I've missed those TV spots--maybe not playing on the left coast? But I do enjoy the sound of CSX's horns. Unless I'm mistaken, I believe that they use the same horns that Amtrak uses. I want to say it's a Nathan K5LA or something like that (I'm not a horn guru, so that's a guess). I also like how their ditch lights wig-wag back and forth every time they activate the horn. It's very eye-catching.
Posted by sbalax (Member # 2801) on :
They were there here Smitty. You had to be watching CNN AKA "Carnival News Network". They had pretty much 24 hour coverage.
Frank in overcast but warming SBA -- 81 yesterday.
Posted by TBlack (Member # 181) on :
Now that the excitement is over, I've been wondering how one fire could knock out so much of the ship's infrastructure. In the old days, the engine room was separate from the generator room just so that didn't happen. Anybody here up on ship design/construction have any observations?
TB
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Mr. Black, if those vessels were flagged in the "first world", one has to wonder if they would be awarded certificates of seaworthiness.
Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
Ahh, that's music to my ears! Love those AmHorns.
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
Don't foreign-flagged cruise liners have to earn an American certificate of seaworthiness in order to use U.S. ports?
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
This is my all time favorite Hancock diesel horn. Used by the Seaboard RR and I'm sure others.
If you didn't know, you'd think it was a steam whistle.
And speaking of horns, to sort of stay on topic, my granddaughter is excited about this horn she'll hear in several months at Port Canaveral.
Posted by sbalax (Member # 2801) on :
Henry--
I know they have to pass U.S. Coast Guard inspections. Are you at sea?
Palmland--
I really enjoyed the Disney horns! Thanks for the link. We have not sailed with them but other "grown up kid" friends have and really enjoyed it. There are a number of "Adults Only" areas on the ship.
Frank in sunny but cool SBA
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
Frank,it should be fun. Seems a good bribe is the best way to get both my sons and family together with us.
Posted by TBlack (Member # 181) on :
Henry,Frank, Certificates of seaworthiness and Coast Guard inspections don't deal with issues involving separating propulsion machinery from elecrtical generating machinery. My concern is that a fire in the engine room knocking out both the propulsion and the electricity must mean that they are not kept separate anymore. I think that needs to be addressed. TB
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Interesting point, Mr. Black.
Somehow, I think it safe to say that US Navy vessels are built with two engines in separate fire and water tight compartments. So was the s/s United States, which in essence was a Navy Troop Transport that had been outfitted as a passenger vessel.
I too am astounded how a fire affecting one engine could have disabled both as well as the entire "hotel" electrical power system. I trust they had an auxiliary generator on the uppermost deck to provide power for the navigation systems, but I have to wonder on that one.
Sure seems like some pretty big corners are cut and a lot of fingers X'd in the construction of these present day Love Tubs. Carnival has had simply too many of these incidents involving fire and other disablements at sea - and never mind the atrociously negligent seamanship from which the results still remain for all to view off the Tuscan coastline.
Thy sea, O God, so great, My boat so small, It cannot be that any happy fate, Will me befall, Save as Thy goodness opens paths for me, Through the consuming vastness of the sea.
--Author unknown
Be it noted I am not stating these Tubs are unsafe, for I have no credentials as a Naval Architect to make such a statement. But I honestly must wonder; could they be safer?
Finally, there was a piece appearing in The Times likely about thirty years ago that stated the Andrea Doria's design was so unseaworthy that the owners could have clearly and quickly determined their best interests were simply to "let her go". While of course what really counta is that all souls who survived the collision were saved, the owners were concerned about the potential for even more claims (and the "no-fault" agreement with the vessel that rammed her would be upset) and that she would have been seized if she ever went near a US Port or any port in a foreign state where any claimant resided. No doubt, this is the same rationale why the "Concordia" will be broken up (nautical for scrapped) when that hulk is finally floated.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
As The Times reported on Wednesday, it looks like the "not welcome" banners are starting to unfurl towards additional invasions by the armada:
But for people like Jay Williams, a homeowner in the historic district who writes a blog for Charleston Communities for Cruise Control, a preservationist group, the nightmare on the Triumph is one more piece of evidence in the case against a fast-growing form of travel. “Cruise ships are sardine cans packed with passengers and crew, susceptible to horrific accidents that instantly can put thousands at risk for their lives,” he wrote after the episode.
m/s Carnival Dream had "hotel power issues" while docked at St. Maarten; no one endangered even if things got a bit "malodorous", but Carnival is reported to be making arrangements to "fly 'em all home".
Come to think of it, flying into or out of TNCM could be a "nail biter" for Aviophobes:
With this latest incident, 4 of the last 5 incidents are with ships built at the Fincantieri ship yard in Italy. They're also all diesel electrics. So, my humble advice is do some research on the origins of your cruise ship prior to booking. And if just have to go on that Italian boat cruise, please bring your own porta-potty!
Tom
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
Argh. The MS Zaandam (Holland-America) I took on that Hawaiian cruise a couple of weeks ago is a Fincantieri-built ship. I wonder how many cruise ships were built there.
(Later. It seems that quite a number of cruise ships have been built by Fincantieri, perhaps more than any other shipbuilder. Judging from the commentary on Cruise Critic, possibly it is poor maintenance or some other source that causes these fires rather than anything to do with the shipyard. There seems to be no clear cause and effect link. Internet forum discussions on this issue seem to be fueled by unsupported opinion rather than actual reports from official investigative bodies.
(In the case of the Costa Concordia, a Fincantieri ship, it appears to have been the negligence of the captain that caused the wreck.
(By the way, at dinner one night the captain of Zaandam came on the ship's intercom, or whatever it's called, to send fire teams to a location on one of the passenger decks. Turns out the cause was a faulty icemaker in one of the crew utility rooms, and the fire was put out quickly.)
Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :
GBN -- thanks for the landing videos from St. Maarten -- I have been to St Maarten (about 20 years ago), but I don't remember flying that close to the ground upon landing. I'm surprised that beach is even open, because of its proximity to the airport.
Hmmm -- in "railroadese," I wonder if those airplane pilots are committing "rules violations"...........
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
Maybe those pilots were just making very skillful short-field landings. That runway is at the theoretical length limit for 747s.
As for the takeoff video, it's hard to understand why the authorities at St. Maarten have not closed the beach behind the runway if people are stupid enough to try to hang on the fence and try to beat the jet blast. Elsewhere concrete blast barriers are put up to prevent blast damage, but it doesn't seem that St. Maarten can do that. Those airliners need every bit of room for touchdowns.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
I must admit, despite all the bashing that the cruiselines (much quite justified with regards to one such), it was still a might impressive sight to watch three of 'em sail (2 "Carnies" 1 Disney) from the balcony of my hotel room in Miami (Marriott Biscayne Bay). One Carnival even used the turning basin without any tugs - struck me as impressive seamanship.
I guess if my flight had not been 45 ML, I would have seen even more. Yesterday, there were only two Carnivals docked, but I was "outta there" before either sailed.
Posted by sbalax (Member # 2801) on :
Mr. Norman--
Ships -- both cruise liners and cargo -- have not used tug boats for quite some time. Most docking is done using bow thrusters and either stern thrusters or Azipods -- stern propulsion systems that swivel.
We've had the experience several times of having the ship do a 360 either for docking purposes (Cobh/Cork, Ireland where we came into the bay and turned around so that we were facing out for departure) or sightseeing (A Chilean fjord near Puerto Montt).
Only once or twice in 24 cruises have we had tugs called out on standby where there was possible need because of tides or currents. They ended up not being used.
Perhaps the most amazing bit of seamanship I've seen was when the Captain of Navigator of the Seas "parallel parked" the ship between two others at the dock in Barcelona using only the thrusters and azipods.
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