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What was the last all pullman traln in the United States?
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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Broadway; RIP Dec 13, 1967
Yhe Panama Limited may have carried on the "fiction" a while longer, but it was with the Fall TT that "The Magnolia Star" was concocted to make the world think that the IC actually added a train. For a while during my "all expenses paid tour of SEA" it did run as two separate "services" with separate Dining and Lounge facilities with the Panama amenities all maintained intact. However, by the time I returned to Univ of Illinois during June '69, it was simply a Coach-Sleeper (no Obs) train.
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Like the IC, my December 1968 OGR shows the Super Chief still running as an all Pullman train with the all coach train being the El Capitan. Since they both had a 6:30 departure time from Chicago, I'm sure they were often combined.
However, such was not the case when I rode it Jan. 1, 1969. The Super Chief ran in advance of the El Cap and it was very much all Pullman.
Ocala Mike Member # 4657
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Not to hijack bill's thread, but does anyone know what the last all-parlor car train was in the US?
Gil should know, and if that's not hint enough, the route took exactly 4 hours.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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The LIRR Cannon Ball outlived the Merchants Limited which became Coach-Parlor with the delivery of the New Haven's stainless fleet circa 1948-49.
Henry Kisor Member # 4776
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GBN, how do you know all this stuff? Are you blessed with both a cache of 50 years of Trains magazines and perfect instant recall?
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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I'm starting to "lose it" a bit, Mr. Kisor.
Within the realm of music, I'm afraid I can no longer identify works within the "classical" repertory to the same extent I once did; I'm afraid it is now down, in many a case, to "sounds like Wolfie".
Ocala Mike Member # 4657
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Gil, I read that the Merchants Limited was the last, in 1949. I thought about the Cannon Ball, which was always replete with parlors back in the day, but didn't it always have coaches as well?
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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Not the '64 or '65 vatietal, and from which I think the linked photo shows.
I got to ride; to Amagansset - not Montauk. The former is where this Fairfield Navy cadet had been ordered to report for duty. So those last ten miles or so have only been covered aboard a Coach.
Ocala Mike Member # 4657
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Intersting; someone should correct that New Haven RR website (and Wikipedia, I think) that's erroneously crediting the Merchants Limited, circa 1949. Of course, it wouldn't be the first time that the poor LIRR got overlooked.
Vincent206 Member # 15447
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Purely by coincidence I was looking at the September 1963 issue of Trains this week (the CN on PEI article was my main interest) and on p.23 there are a couple of paragraphs under the heading How plush can you get?. The Cannon Ball is listed as an all parlor train, but it apparently ran eastbound only. The westbound version was known as the Sundowner. Which train made the actual last trip?
As of September 1963, the US trains that carried sleeping car passengers only were the Panama Limited (IC), the Broadway Limited (PRR) and the Pittsburgher (PRR). Also, the C & O ran an eastbound all-sleeper train named the Resort Special during the high season at White Sulphur Springs and Hot Springs. And in 1963 NdeM still offered 2 all-sleeper trains El Regiomontano and El Tapatio.
palmland Member # 4344
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quote:Originally posted by Vincent206:
....As of September 1963, the US trains that carried sleeping car passengers only were the Panama Limited (IC), the Broadway Limited (PRR) and the Pittsburgher (PRR). Also, the C & O ran an eastbound all-sleeper train named the Resort Special during the high season at White Sulphur Springs and Hot Springs. And in 1963 NdeM still offered 2 all-sleeper trains El Regiomontano and El Tapatio.
And Southern Railway's Crescent between Charlotte and Atlanta. The Super Chief, but only operated separately during peak traffic seasons. Anyone know when the 20th Century added coaches?
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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Spring timetable 1958
notelvis Member # 3071
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I need to go back to my timetable collection on the Crescent.
For much of the 1960's the Crescent (via A&WP/L&N through Montgomery) and the Southerner (Via Birmingham) operated as one train southbound and the Southerner did have coaches from it's beginning.
Just can't recall when the Sooutherner and the Crescent united as far as Atlanta. It was well before Southern abandoned the pretense of separate trains though and rechristened what was left the 'Southern Crescent'.
For extra credit - while the 'Southerner' and the 'Crescent' became one train southbound for several years, they remained on separate schedules northbound. Who can name the southbound only passenger train between DC and Atlanta which Southern operated to balance the timecard?
yukon11 Member # 2997
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My guess, David, would be the Washington and Southwestern Limited, or something like that. I think there was a Washington and Southwestern Vestibuled Limited..but not sure if that was the same train. I could be completely wrong. By the way, the term "vestibuled"..did it mean a train had to have certain kinds of lounge cars, drawing rooms, etc? Richard
George Harris Member # 2077
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When "Vestibuled" was significant to a train was during the transition from open platform cars to vestibuled cars. It meant that here was a train where you could go from car to car without going outside. Otherwise, there was not necessarily any difference other than it also meant you were getting a train with newer cars.
Think of it as much like the 1950's when stores would make a bid deal out of being air conditioned. Then, after almost all were the advertizing of such went away because since everybody did it there was no point in making a big deal of it in advertizing.
There was also a period in passenger train development when "all steel equipment" was part of the advertizments. This meant that you would not be in wood bodied cars.
palmland Member # 4344
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Interesting questions, David.
While not a complete story, it appears from my OGR's that the Crescent was still all Pullman in both directions the summer of 1964. By the summer of 1965 coaches had been added northbound only and remained so until the fall of 1967.
By February of '68 coaches operated in both directions from Washington to Atlanta as the train was combined with the Southerner southbound. I wonder if that change was tied to the railroads losing mail contracts about that time that resulted in lots of service reductions.
The Peach Queen then become the secondary train southbound. It carried sleepers for Greenville (SC), Winston Salem, and Atlanta. It departed Washington at 11:55pm with morning arrivals in the Carolinas and 4PM into Atlanta. Arguably a better schedule for today's Crescent, at least if you were going no further than Atlanta.
George Harris Member # 2077
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quote:Originally posted by palmland: The Peach Queen then become the secondary train southbound. It carried sleepers for Greenville (SC), Winston Salem, and Atlanta. It departed Washington at 11:55pm with morning arrivals in the Carolinas and 4PM into Atlanta. Arguably a better schedule for today's Crescent, at least if you were going no further than Atlanta.
Consiering that this gives you an early afternoon and a post business day departure from both New York and Atlanta and early morning arrival at the same for one of these trains and reasonable daytime arrivals from Washington north and Cahrlotte south for the other of these trains that would seem to be a fairly good schedule for today, as well.
If my memory is right, the northbound Peach Queen became combined with the northbound Crescent.
notelvis Member # 3071
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George, I believe you are correct in that the northbound Peach Queen was combined with the Crescent which, before it's ultimate consolidation with the Southerner, departed Atlanta in the early afternoon several hours earlier than today's Crescent.
At the risk of coming off as someone all starry-eyed dreaming up new LD passenger train routes left and right......
I would like to see an additional frequency operated daily between New York and Atlanta. Something along the lines of the consist protecting the Cardinal (baggage, viewliner sleeper, amcafe, 3 coaches) would do the trick though I think demand would eventually call for an additional sleeper and an additional coach.
The train I envision would be an overnight train between New York and Raleigh, assume roughly the schedule of the current NCDOT Piedmonts #73 and #76 between Raleigh and Charlotte, and then continue on to/from Atlanta. That would make for arrivals and departures in Atlanta very nearly what the Peach Queen was doing 45 years ago.
And..... I believe the ridership for this train would be there..... bolstered predominantly by the availability of a day train from the Raleigh-Durham, Greensboro, and Charlotte areas to Atlanta.
Worried about limited equipment availability? What if that Viewliner sleeper coming in to Atlanta on the new Peach Queen at 3:00pm is short-turned and returns northbound on the Crescent departing Atlanta at 8:00pm? Meets the expressed desire of operating an additional sleeper on the Crescent as far as Atlanta. Southbound the sleeper would come off the Crescent and return north on the new Peach Queen leaving town about 1:00pm or so.
So that's the dream. It's a perfectly good plan so long as I don't get bogged down with realities such as no house track in place at Peachtree Station, switching costs, etc.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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I wanted to use this occasion to report to the Forum of the ill-health that Bill Haithcoat has endured over the past three years.
He is far better known over at Amtrak Unlimited where there is a topic related to his health:
From his Church's Bulletin, apparently nothing much as changed.
I last met up with Bill on a 2013 trip to Atlanta; that Autumn, I received a message from his Sister that he was not well, gave me some horrid details, and ask that I pray for him.
So I ask we think of Bill and that any here who communicate with a Higher Being, that they do so.
He is indeed a "Southern Gentleman"; and should others know him face to face, I'm certain they will agree.
palmland Member # 4344
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Thanks for the heads up. Bill is a good guy and very knowledgeable about passenger rail pre Amtrak. I thouroughly enjoyed my brief meeting with him in Atlanta. We had a great time discussing the merits of the Dixie Flyer and other L&N/NC&StL trains.
yukon11 Member # 2997
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What USA passenger, all pullman train had the longest route? I would guess the SF Super Chief, but possibly the 1920's Oriental Limited? Maybe none of the above. If the question was "what North American passenger all pullman train had the longest route", I think I know the answer.
Richard
DonNadeau Member # 61606
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quote:Like the IC, my December 1968 OGR shows the Super Chief still running as an all Pullman train with the all coach train being the El Capitan. Since they both had a 6:30 departure time from Chicago, I'm sure they were often combined.
However, such was not the case when I rode it Jan. 1, 1969. The Super Chief ran in advance of the El Cap and it was very much all Pullman.
By 1969 the Super Chief ran as a separate train only during peak traffic periods. Otherwise, it was in the same consist as El Capitan. However, passengers from each could not venture into the other.
Various trips on El Capitan made it by far one of my two favorite coach experiences (the other being the CZ). With hgh-level riding, big windows, super comfortable seats, and great dining I loved the Cap.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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I just checked the latest Christ The King Bulletin dated April 2; there appears no change with Bill.
Let us all keep our fellow member in thought.
PullmanCo Member # 1138
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quote:Originally posted by yukon11: What USA passenger, all pullman train had the longest route?
Richard
You would have to go back to each railroad and/or railroad grouping run:
ATSF ran the California Limited, then the Chief, then the Super Chief-1, all as heavyweights, before Super-2 began their lightweight era.
UP/C&NW ran limiteds into and out of Los Angeles, to North Western Station in the 20s.
SP/UP/C&NW ran the Overland Limited from the Oakland Mole to North Western Station.
WP/D&RGW/MoP ran trains from the Bay Area to St Louis.
UP/C&NW ran limiteds from Portland to Chicago and St Louis.
And lest we forget, the Empire Builder and the North Coast Limited served Seattle and Chicago since the wooden car era.
PullmanCo Member # 1138
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Eric (ehbowen), much as I love your site, sometimes streamlinermemories.info is more helpful.
Today is one of those times.
On the Southern Pacific, in 1937...
The Golden State Limited was all Pullman, LA to Chicago. 2008 miles. (SP-CRI&P)
The San Francisco Overland Limited was all Pullman. Oakland to Chicago, 2264 miles. (SP-UP-C&NW)
On the Union Pacific, in 1937...
The Los Angeles Limited was all Pullman (LA-Chicago, UP-C&NW). 1810 miles
The Portland Rose and the Challenger ran together to Green River, WY, thence the Portland Rose was all Pullman to Chicago. Portland to Chicago, 1784 miles, Green River to Chicago, 970 miles
The ATSF, in 1937: The Super Chief was a weekly streamliner. The Chief was a daily HW all Pullman The California Limited was a daily all Pullman. 2243 miles.
So the longest haul was the Overland Limited at 2264 miles.
GN, NP, WP/D&RGW/MoP all had coaches in their Limiteds in the HW era.
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