I also received in the mail a colorful brochure labeled 'The Time is Now'. It was published by 'The Campaign to Restore the N&W Class J 611'. It of course was asking for financial support. But, this appears to also have the support of CEO Wick Mooreman (who appears to really relish the historical importance of his railroad - ie. he's a railfan) and the Norfolk Southern as the "611 has been invited to join Norfolk Southern 21st Centruy Steam Program". If the funds are raised, 611 will participate in NS Steam Program next year. The locomotive is apparently in excellent condition except some relatively minor repairs . A maintenance facility in Roanoke is also needed. The repairs would be done in NC Transportation museum in Spencer, NC. More info here. And, yes, I will make a donation.
Now to connect this to Amtrak - it's not too hard to imagine Mr Mooreman in the cab of 611 as it hauls one of the Piedmont trains out of Charlotte!
Posted by PullmanCo (Member # 1138) on :
Regarding 4014...
How long is a wheelset on a current EMD or GE C-C locomotive? What's the minimum curvature the wheelset can support? What's the minimum curvature a modern high horse Diesel can operate in? How does that compare to a Big Boy?
As I recall, one of the guys on the 3985 rebuild crew talked about taking a stoker screw from the Big Boy in Cheyenne. He (Trains Magazine, back around 1975-77??) said that a Big Boy would probably never run again, because trackage was constantly being improved to support modern Diesels, and there were places where a 4-8-8-4 used to run, but no longer would.
So, my question is, does UP have a shot at an operational locomotive, actually serving the system, or is this a "white elephant"?
Don't get me wrong. I posted the announcement on my Facebook page, and I hope it comes through.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
In addition to these exciting developments for steam fans, I look forward to hopefully seeing the Southern Railway 4501 currently under rebuild in Chattanooga take to the rails again.
Perhaps someone can organize a big train show in 2015 somewhere like St. Louis where we can see the Big Boy, 611, 4501, and kin together in one place.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
When they were running, the operating timetables would have had lists where these big engines could and could not go.
There has been no acceptance of lower standards of curvature since the end of steam. Quite the contrary. Think about all the long wheelbase auto carriers and piggyback flats. There are plenty of places they could not go that were no problem to the 40 ft freight cars of the past.
These big six axle diesels are not very tolerant of poor track condition small radius curves, either. I would suspect that the large steamers would be unlikely to have any problem going where a six axle diesel can go.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
David, I had forgotten about 4501, good point. Wasn't that engine really responsible for getting the modern day steam excursions started?
As for the Big Boy, if it's anything like my model railroad, I would think the two sets of fixed 4 axle drivers is as much a problem as the overall length. But, as David P. Morgan said, "Steam fares better in the flatlands" - now maybe for different reasons. But, I could see it running flat out on the UP's triple track mainline in Nebraska without much problem. Not so much over the former DRGW.
As for a steam roundup, how about another city the UP and NS share - Kansas City. That great terminal still stands, although not sure how much trackage remains in that area other than the mainline. That would be a sight: NS 630, 611, 4501 and UP 844, 3985, and the Big Boy.
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
KC is a wonderful RR town!
Posted by Ocala Mike (Member # 4657) on :
Nice pic, and the Western Auto building and sign look exactly like they did 48 years ago. I met my bride in that great town in 1965 while I was in the Air Force, and she was working at Western Auto right in that building.
After we got married, we lived off base in Grandview, and I remember the KCS streamliner to New Orleans (Southern Belle?) coming through Grandview.
Besides a wife, I acquired a lifelong addiction to good barbecue there.
Posted by chrisg (Member # 2488) on :
I will be at the UP 4014 night photo session in Pomona Saturday night.
A story will be coming.
chris
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
quote:Originally posted by chrisg: UP 4014 night photo session in Pomona Saturday night.
Sold out though, unfortunately. Only 5 miles from where I live.
Posted by MargaretSPfan (Member # 3632) on :
Geoff: Hey -- do they have a Wait List? It is very rare for everyone to show up as planned, as some people's plans change at the last minute -- due to circumstances beyond their control. Contact whoever is doing the photo shoot and ask them if they have a Wait List., and if they do, get on it.
Good Luck!
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
That's an idea - thanks Margaret.
[Later] Seems they were oversubscribed within a week, according to the reply.
Posted by MargaretSPfan (Member # 3632) on :
Darn! I so sorry, Geoff. Sounds like there is a definite need to do this again before the Fair next month. Wonder if they could do that?
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
To quote the director, "We are considering a 2nd Night Photography session in October that may feature the Santa Fe #3450 and Southern Pacific #5021 steam locomotives."
It's not the end of the world. I'm not a big steam fan anyway, especially fake steam! But being so close was the main attraction for a couple of hours of fun on a Saturday night.
Posted by chrisg (Member # 2488) on :
Notelvis noted that SRY 4501 would also be joining the parade soon. This is in today's Trains.com newswire which reported that the first set of drivers were reinstalled today:
"The excursion favorite from 1966 to the end of Norfolk Southern’s original steam program has been under restoration for two years since Southern 2-8-0 No. 630 was restored in 2011. If all goes well, No. 4501 could be under steam by the end of the year. Museum officials expect to place it into main line excursion service in 2014."
Posted by chrisg (Member # 2488) on :
Milwaukee Road 261, NKP 765 amd Union Pacific 844 plus Santa Fe 3751 should all be out on the rails in 2014.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
4501 is a sentimental favorite of mine given that she was the first 'big' steam locomotive that I saw. That was moving an Asheville, NC - Knoxville, TN excursion in 1971.
By definition in this case - 'big' means standard gauge. I was already pretty decently versed by that time in the two pristine narrow gauge locomotives at Tweetsie Railroad in Blowing Rock, NC.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Wouldn't this be a nice companion to the N&W 611 rather than the comparative teakettles that carry on the SRY steam heritage?
Lovely painting Mr. Norman!!!!! And yes - BIG Southern steam such as this would look nice teamed up with the 611. I am told that the restoration of 4501 includes the addition of an automatic stoker for the first time!
The magnificent beast in your painting is a 1917 Baldwin product from Southern's initial class of 4-8-2 locomotives. There were 23 of them and they were popular on the passenger trains operating in and out of Asheville, NC where a 4-6-2 just wouldn't do.
For the record - the Skyland Special expired in about 1958...... just a few years before I was born. I was 6 when the last scheduled passenger train over Saluda, the last remnants of the Carolina Special, were discontinued a decade later.
A framed copy of this painting - lifted from a Howard Fogg calandar - hangs on my office wall! It depicts the northbound 'Skyland Special' entering Saluda, NC..... the top of the steepest portion of the Saluda grade BUT not the highest point reached between Spartanburg, SC and Asheville, NC.
The tracks are still in place on Saluda Mountain but the line is railbanked and isolated from the rest of the national railroad network by a mound of dirt blocking the tracks on either end. I'm not sure where the southern end of the embargo is located but on the North Carolina side it is in the community of Zirconia about 10 minutes driving from my office!
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
A footnote although I am in no hurry to reach 4,000 posts before passengers board the Wisconsin Talgo -
The helper locomotive in the painting you linked Mr. Norman is undoubtedly a 2-10-2 from the 5000 number series which Southern used in freight and helper service in the Southern Appalachians.
A now departed family friend named Dale Roberts grew up by the tracks in East Asheville. Dale was a self-educated authority on Southern steam (and possibly the finest oboist that North Carolina ever produced) who used to say that Southern's big fifties looked like circus elephants down on their knees as they neared the summit of Old Fort Mountain.
The more acclaimed reporter Don Phillips, on a railfan junket to capture steam's parting hours in China maybe a decade ago even likened the sound and appearance of the Chinese 2-10-2's to the Southern 'fifties' in the Carolina mountains fifty years earlier.
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
I had heard that the 4501 would return in it's black freight scheme. Those who saw the late 1990's movie 'October Sky' may recall the 4501 in black masquerading as a Norfolk & Western locomotive. I had heard also that an automatic stoker was part of the plan for the 4501. It looks to me like they are going to be raising the height of the cab floor at least 10 inches to accomodate that.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
Speaking of steam news - Did anyone else notice in the Trains newswire a day or two ago that the Western Maryland Scenic Railroad has approached the B&O Museum in Baltimore about possibly restoring a former C&O mallet for use while their own 2-8-0 goes in for overhaul in 2015?
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
quote:Originally posted by notelvis: Those are remarkable photos Yukon.
I had heard that the 4501 would return in it's black freight scheme. Those who saw the late 1990's movie 'October Sky' may recall the 4501 in black masquerading as a Norfolk & Western locomotive. I had heard also that an automatic stoker was part of the plan for the 4501. It looks to me like they are going to be raising the height of the cab floor at least 10 inches to accomodate that.
*************************** I sort of hoped they would go with the green paint scheme but I'm sure many prefer the black.
October Sky is one of my all-time favorite movies.
Richard
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
I think that I would have preferred the Southern passenger green paint scheme on 4501 also since that's what she wore during her early excursion career and that's what I first saw.
Even then though I knew railfan purists who were offended that a Mikado freight locomotive was wearing anything other than it's original black.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
One of my favorite 'Trains' photos was a very black Mike helping the Skyland Special over Saluda in a downpour. It was called 'shower for a dirty mike'. I wouldn't care what color it was if we could see that again with 4501.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
As I mentioned earlier, my current school is about 10 minutes driving from the point where a big mound of dirt isolates the rails down Saluda Mountain from the national railroad network.
Previously - from 1998 through June 2004 - I worked at a school within earshot of the grade crossing in Zirconia, NC..... the first community with a post office north of Saluda.
The last revenue freight over Saluda Mountain operated in December 2002 though I did hear a work train blowing for the crossing some 8-10 months later. Might have been there to create the dirt mound.
While the 4501 will live to fight more steep grades, it's pretty uncertain whether Saluda will ever again be among them.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
The TVRM restoration of 4501 is moving ahead with pressure testing of the boiler being done.
Today, Trains.com had an announcement from the Virginia Museum of Transportation. A portion of that press release:
"ROANOKE, Va. – The Virginia Museum of Transportation hopes to construct a new maintenance and education facility as part of its campaign to restore Norfolk & Western 4-8-4 No. 611 to service. The new building would provide facilities and equipment to enable No. 611 to remain in service for an extended period of time.
The proposed Preservation and Education Facility would resemble a Norfolk & Western “lubritorium,” the buildings N&W designed for quick service for its fleet of modern steam locomotives. The building will include maintenance space, educational exhibits, and a visitors’ gallery. It will also be used to host rail-oriented meetings and events."
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
A prediction..... based on a hunch and speculation among railfan friends -
Perhaps the 4501 will debut on a Chattanooga-Stearns, KY trip on June 7, 2014.
The 630 will be coming south from Lexington, KY with a one way excursion to Chattanooga. The two locomotives might doublehead from Stearns to Chattanooga.
AGAIN - purely speculation based on a handful of givens..... those being -
1) The 630 will be running the trip originating in Lexington.
2) A trip from Chattanooga to Stearns is also advertised at the TVRM website though it currently shows as diesel northbound, steam on return.
3) Finally - June 7 will be one day beyond the 50th anniversary of 4501 leaving the K&T in Stearns for it's trip to Chattanooga, restoration, and immortality.
Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :
Hey David (notelvis) -- please check your PM box. I have a question for you!!
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
Interesting thought David. Perhaps the uncertainty of a completed 4501 is the reason that portion of the TVRM steam trips is listing but tickets not yet available. Regardless, Stearns, KY would be a good spot to be standing trackside on June 7.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
Trains.com reports N&W 611 will be moved to Spencer for this event:
Streamliners at Spencer . It should be quite an event. Also that weekend SRY 630 will pull an excursion into Oneida, TN and, as David points out, the next weekend there is speculation that SRY 4501 will make its first appearance there.
After the event, restoration of 611 will begin at Spencer. Sounds like NS is trying to upstage UP's Big Boy move. I'll take 611 any day.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Somewhat off topic, but it certainly appears that three of the Class I's, namely NS, UP, and KCS, care much about their heritage, while the others, BNSF, CSX, GT, and SOO, appear not overly concerned.
The two US subsidiaries of the Canadians are recognized as Class I's
To close, Amtrak is to be commended for their efforts with both the Heritage and the Veteran's units.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
Now Gil, how can you say that about good ol' CSX. They contributed a $10k matching grant for the cosmetic restoration of ACL 1504, a USRA Pacific residing in Jacksonville0. Some might say 'big whoop'.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
Trains.com reported this yesterday:
"Newly restored Southern Railway 2-8-2 No. 4501 will make its grand return to steam Sept. 6-7 at the Tennessee Valley Railfest in Chattanooga. The public debut of the locomotive will feature a dedication at Railfest."
Also, last weekend I was in Spencer, NC again. Preston Claytor put on a program and tour about the restoration progress of N&W 611. All the streamlined sheathing is carefully stored in the huge back shop building, along with vintage vehicles and a Piedmont airlines DC-3 (to be restored but now in pieces)
611 is still on schedule for a spring debut. Nothing major unearthed in the dis-assembly and inspection process. The back sheet needs work but mostly a labor not material issue. Much of the credit for its good condition goes to the great care taken when it was mothballed in the 90's. Scott Linday of Steam Operations Corp. was closely involved then and is now the prime contractor restoring it.
That will be quite a day when 4501 and 611 meet again, under steam. Claytor promised at least one excursion out of Spencer for 611 as the NC Transp. Museum has been such a good host. One interesting tidbit: as big as their roundhouse is, 611 just barely fits - without its tender. A roundhouse built in the 1920's clearly wasn't designed for the modern steam power of 1950. Engine and tender hang over the edge of their 100' turntable - about 5' at each end.
For those wanting to be on the priority list for notification of the excursions before the public, Claytor suggested a donation of $611.00 to 'Fire Up 611'.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
As reported earlier, the Norfolk and Western's famous J class steam locomotive, 611, underwent its second restoration this winter at the North Carolina Transportation Museum in Spencer, NC (former Southern RR shop complex).
On Thursday, restoration was complete and it made a mainline test run from Spencer to Greensboro, NC and return, about a 100 miles. Excursions are planned throughout the summer based in its home at the Virginia Transportation Museum in Roanoke. That is fitting since the N&W built her near there in 1950 at the very end of the steam era.
The photos say it all. I took them just east of NS's Linwood yard. Just before it appeared an N&W local switch crew that had seen us at the remote crossing joined us after going off duty. The fireman, an 11 year veteran was speechless - first time he had seen steam. I am sure none of this would have been possible without the full support of NS retiring Chairman, Wick Moorman, a great believer in railroad heritage.
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
Really nice photos, Mr. Palmland.
The first one, if you could enlarge, would be good for framing and wall hanging.
Richard
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
Thanks Richard, I like to think the train looks like the Birminghan Special, or Pelican, that operated behind this type engine, with part of its trip on the Southern railroad mainline, perhaps somewhere in southern Virginia in the late 50's.
For those interested in steam, I urge you to book an excursion behind her this summer out of Roanoke. 611 may have two lives, but not likely a third.
Posted by Mike Smith (Member # 447) on :
The last time Houston hosted a Super Bowl, UP brought their Big Boy to town, pulling a lot of UP passenger cars. I went down there to see it the day before the Super Bowl. It was an awesome sight.
Wonder if they will bring it next year?
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
Nice pictures Palmland....... may go see 611 over the summer..... hoping to ride behind the 4501 this fall though.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
David, I just got notice from the NC Transp. Museum in Salisbury that 611 will return on June 20-21 for their Rail Day festival on June 20. Might be a good time to see 611 before she returns to Roanoke for the summer.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
Saw that Palmland.... but my wife, daughter, and I will be away June 20-30. Old friends in Colorado to see....both flesh and blood and narrow gauge steam!
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
Sounds fun, David. We'll follow in your tracks during August-but no Amtrak- family in Estes Park then Alamosa// Durango
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
This weekend I was in Roanoke to ride one of the excursions sponsored by the Virginia Transportation Museum (home to 611), Fireup611 organization, and the NS as part of their 21 Century Steam program. Everyone had their act together. From the Museum's personnel that manned the cars on the train, the 611 group that put on a flawless trip with 611, and the NS that made it possible all worked together to show that you can run mainline steam in 2015.
The proceeds must have been significant. After expenses proceeds will go to a maintenance facility for 611 on the grounds of the Museum, that were part of N&W's shop complex. The train was 19 cars with, I think five or six being very full first class cars with seat cost ranging from around $200 to over $300 for the half day trip. Six trips are being operated this weekend.
The highlight of the trip for me was the return to Roanoke from Lynchburg and the assault on Blue Ridge Summit. It's been a long time since I felt the unmistakeable surge as 611 slipped momentarily on the 1.39% grade with a heavy train and wet rails. While we were held to 40mph (although someone said they clocked it at 45) near the summit we were down to about 10 mph.
The thing that struck me the most was the active participation of the NS. At about every small town and in Roanoke and Lynchburg there were NS personnel standing trackside with their safety vests and glasses 'inspecting' the train. I didn't see one without his camera. Unlike some other railroads, NS understands that the value of pride in your company can't be quantified by the bean counters, but there is real value.
Related to Amtrak - our car hosts couldn't do enough to keep us full of food and drink. They were great (we were in IP's immaculate dome, Prairie View). Recently I saw an article that with the recent wreck in the NEC and other missteps, Boardman and the Board should step down and be replaced by the retiring Wick Moorman who needs to bring in personnel that can run a railroad. The Board should have heavy representation from the states, who are now leading the way in passenger rail.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Mr. Palmland, your comment regarding a housecleaning at 60 Mass is noted. Let us be mindful, that housecleaning, in order to have any effect, would have to include as good as every non-Agreement soul on the property (OK, their college recruited "Management Trainees" hired on a week ago; let's give them a pass).
Regarding railroad heritage, NS and Uncle Pete are the best keepers; let's give some note to KCS and Amtrak. The other four; all of you have your heritages as well; why not recognize them? You wouldn't be here were it not for such.
Posted by chrisg (Member # 2488) on :
Mike that was the Union Pacific Challenger 3985.
No Big Boy has ever been to Houston.
Chris
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
We took another trip to see steam in 2015. This time it was NS 21st Steam Program operating out of the Tennessee Valley RR Museum in Chattanooga with Southern's famous 4501 2-8-2 steam engine. Because it was a relatively short trip (about 3 hours) and a short consist of 6 cars, NS did not require a diesel helper.
Beautiful weather and well run operation. The NS participated heavily. According to one of the staff there was two Trainmasters, a road foreman and a couple brakemen/conductors. They were needed as we tied up their Chattanooga to Knoxville/Atlanta main while turning on the wye in Cleveland, TN and then on the return near the TVRM at the NS junction with their line to Cincinnati.
It also required two back up moves. One to clear the signal after getting on the mainline near TVRM and then to back into their siding at the end of the trip. Spectacular ride, especially when viewed from the railfan seat in the observation.
That evening we took TVRM's dinner train for a short (and decidedly unscenic) run. But, great service. Our steward was a retired caterer and does it for fun when not working for Ellis' Pullman operation out of Chicago. The train had a business car (ex B&O), Pullman heavyweight 8-5, Clover Colony, and a modernized ex CofG heavyweight diner.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
It looks like a group in Nashville is about to pull a NC&StL 4-8-4 out of a city park, restore it and run it on the Nashville and Eastern Ry, formerly the Tennessee Central Railroad.
This will be quite a sight to see this 'Dixie' class locomotive pulling one of the TC Museum's well restored excursion trains.
quote:Originally posted by palmland: It looks like a group in Nashville is about to pull a NC&StL 4-8-4 out of a city park, restore it and run it on the Nashville and Eastern Ry, formerly the Tennessee Central Railroad.
This will be quite a sight to see this 'Dixie' class locomotive pulling one of the TC Museum's well restored excursion trains.
That would be awesome if they can. Who will do the work and where?
In the 1962 restoration and operation of the General the work was done in the South Louisville Shops, and at that time there were plenty of men still living that had done work on Steam, and presumably in the shop all the tools and equipment still in existence, as it had been less than 10 years more or less since the last regular steam on the L&N / NC&StL.
Not even possible to see anything like the running of the route of the Great Locomotive Chase today.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
According to Trains newswire and as reported by the Nashville Steam Preservation Society the inspection of the NC&StL engine determined it was in great shape:
"To say the least, our findings, so far, are extremely encouraging! We are extremely thankful and grateful for the care and foresight that the NC&StL shop forces had to properly prepare No. 576 for long term storage, in an outside environment, that enables it to be a prime restoration candidate."
And Trains reports that: "Next, the nonprofit is to go before the Nashville Metropolitan Council, governing agency for the city and Davidson County, tonight (July 19) for what’s expected to be the first of at least three meetings. If the Council approves an agreement in August or September, and if enough funds are raised, the locomotive could be moved this autumn."
If it clears these hurdles it will move to the old Tennessee Central shops/office (now a museum) for repairs by the contractor.
All it takes is time and $3M.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
Nashville City Council unanimously voted to move 576 to the TC museum shops for restoration. Move expected this fall. If enough money is raised it will run in excursion service on the Nashville and Eastern RR - route of music city Star.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
quote:Originally posted by palmland: Nashville City Council unanimously voted to move 576 to the TC museum shops for restoration. Move expected this fall. If enough money is raised it will run in excursion service on the Nashville and Eastern RR - route of music city Star.
That would be great!!!! If only we could see it pounding down its home rails between Nashville and Chattanooga, but that cannot even be classified as a dream. At best it is a hallucination.
