In recent articles here in Denver regarding our new trainsportation hub/Union Station, several times I have seen the comment that Denver Union Station, at its peak, had 80 trains per day passing through. I find that just incredible. I just can't conceve of how that was coordinated, where did they all come from and go? Perhaps I am woefully unaware of just how many trains there were traversing the country. Any thoughts on this? I suspect some of you/us have a great deal more knowldge of RR history than I.
Ira - here in Denver where I am harvesting green onions and radishes already.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
I think that 80 a day is quite believable, Mr. Slotkin. If that count is comparative with 'four a day' today, then it is very believable. Think of all the trains that simply are no more and if they Daily went through Denver in each direction, that's the noted 'four a day'. If they originated at Denver, that's 'two a day'.
When I first laid eyes upon Denver Union Station during June 1963, it seemed like a 'mighty busy' place to me, with names like Rocky Mountain Rocket, Chief (Den-LA cars), Portland Rose, Coloradan, Prospector, Yampa Valley Mail, plus all those of which contemporary railfans have heard.
Posted by Mike Smith (Member # 447) on :
Back in the 50s and 60s, trains were as popular as jets are, now. How many planes take off and land at Denver's airport? How many will be taking off and landing after transporters are perfected?
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
I think you have to go back to pre war era of many locals to approach 80 trains at Denver. But in 1954, which I consider the high water mark of the streamliner era, the count was a robust 34 trains on 6 railroads (counting FW&D/C&S as part of the Q). The CZ was the only thru train operating in/out on the CB&Q and DRG&W.
Posted by bill613a (Member # 4264) on :
Wouldn't UP's CITY OF ST LOUIS and PORTLAND ROSE be considered thru trains?
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
Wow, I completely forgot the KP, Bill. And my wife's relatives still live in Ellis, KS where we visit every year. Add the City of Portland and StL - both thru, and the Pony Express to LA and 2 locals (1 a mixed train).
Posted by Vincent206 (Member # 15447) on :
How many railroads served Denver at its peak? UP, D&RGW, Burlington, AT&SF, Rock Island....and ?? Trains west to the Bay Area and the Pacific Northwest, north to Wyoming and Montana, south to Pueblo and Texas, east to Chicago and St. Louis. Denver was a busy place.
Posted by gibg (Member # 2565) on :
I was there, and I remember many, many trains in the 1940s and 1950s. CB&Q had the Denver Zephyr, the California Zephyr and a local train. D&RGW had the Colorado Eagle, the Royal Gorge and the Prospector. Rock Island had the Rocky Mountain Rocket and a local train. UP had the City of Denver, the City of St. Louis, the Portland Rose and a local train. And the C&S had the Texas Zephyr and overnight trains to Casper and Alliance (Nebraska), plus the combined arrangement as well as Denver-LaJunta with the Santa Fe for through cars to the Chief and the California Limited, and several local Denver-Pueblo trains.
Have I forgotten any? There were times when Denver Union Station (which was jointly owned by all the lines serving Denver) had seven or eight trains occupying platforms at the same time.
It was glorious to a young railfan!
Gib Gardner Old Snowmass, Colorado
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
Although maybe not a true "through train", I wish I had the opportunity to take the old CB&Q (Burlington Route) passenger train(s) from Denver to Billings. In fact, I may be mistaken, but it also connected with Galveston at one time, and once was the most direct route from the Gulf to the Pacific Northwest. The route through the Wind River Canyon, in WY, would have been a real highlight.
Richard
Posted by gibg (Member # 2565) on :
Adding a quick postscript: how could I forget the Denver and Rio Grande Western's Yampa Valley Mail, especially after discussing it in a recent post?
A thousand pardons....
Gib Gardner Old Snowmass, Colorado
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Related of sorts: while I was never near the C&S Denver Billings train. I did once observe the 'Q' Lincoln-Billings train 47 at Sheridan WY.
During 1957, that train's consist was (more or less) several head end cars, two heavyweight Coaches, Heavyweight Diner, and a 6-4-6 Sleeper.
What was I doing in Sheridan? Well my Mother and Father decided that 'wouldn't it be great for the whole family to spend three weeks at a Dude Ranch? Well, for this 'Dude' that was probably two weeks longer than necessary to be atop the oat burners, but oh well, that's in the past - not sure if I have heard 'riders up' since.
Suffice to say, my 'Train hating' Mother and Father (throw in my Sister as well; to my best knowledge the only intercity train she has ever been aboard was overseas) were not about to hear of a train trip out there and back, but during 1957, a NY-Sheridan routing was possible in 50 some hours. The likely itinerary would have been NY-Chi PRR 21 Manhattan Limited, Q Nebraska Zephyr to Lincoln, then 47 to Sheridan. I think even then to me that would have been 'too much' - never mind the others. On that point, the one time my Father acquiesced, he was climbing the walls on a 1963 Zephyr ride Glenwood-Oakland long about Portola (isn't it there yet? doesn't it go to San Francisco? 'you conned me!!').
Oh well, so much for a railfan growing up with a train hating family.
Posted by TwinStarRocket (Member # 2142) on :
My Summer 1964 Burlington Timetable still shows a Texas Zephyr (#1&2) Denver-Houston daily via C&S/FW&D, as well as a daily stops-everywhere local. The Denver-Billings train (CBQ #29/30) apparently had no name. You could also go Denver-Billings via Alliance, NE on CBQ.
Interesting -the Denver Zephyr left CHI 1:50 later than the California Zephyr and arrived in DEN only 10 minutes later, with only one less stop (Council Bluffs).
One of my favorite train names is the Ak-Sar-Ben Zephyr CHI-Lincoln.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
TSR- in 1966 both the TZ and 7/8 were still operating. By the summer of 1967 the TZ was gone but 7/8 picked up its 6-6-4 sleeper and and an observation (I believe from one of the original Zephyrs) that also served breakfast.
I rode it overnight from Denver to Amarillo. There I connected to various trains on the ATSF/MP/KCS to New Orleans and an Eastern Electra to Pensacola. By the fall of that year it too was gone.
That is remarkable that the DZ was so much faster than the CZ. I suspect there wasn't much concern with speed limits then. I was struck on my one ride on the DZ how new and spotless everything looked - but then it was the newest and last of the postwar streamliners, I believe. The observation was packed with a young crowd as well as the expected business types.
And Gib, you were correct in not including the Yampa Valley which didn't appear until 1955. In the early 50's the train was the Mountaineer to Grand Junction that also carried a Craig sleeper and coach and was cut off in Orestod for the train to their destination. In the 40's there were two trains to Craig.
Posted by DonNadeau (Member # 61606) on :
Although a long time ago, I think that I remember correctly that the in the mid 60s CZ had many more stops than its Denver mate.
The Denver Zephyr schedule still looked something like this:
Don is right. I was looking at a condensed schedule. The CZ did have about 6 more stops than the DZ west of Council Bluffs on my 1964 schedule.
No CBQ trains, however, stopped in my favorite town of Funk, NE, just east of Holdrege. On an auto trip, I got my kids to pose for a photo on front of "Funk School". This improved their status back home in the 'hood.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Additionally, as we approached 'The End', namely March 1969, Q had discontinued #7 which had handled mail and express. What remained of head end traffic after the '67 Massacre' was handled Chi-Lincoln on 11 Nebraska Zephyr then handled Lincoln-Denver on #17 Cal Zephyr. Therefore, towards the end of life, the CZ arrived Denver looking more like an 'accommodation M&E' than it did what was often considered (even if I personally never held that view myself) America's premier streamliner.
Finally on a side note, lest we forget that the Zephyr never ran a mile under the BN flag, as it was gone a few months before the merger.
Posted by bill613a (Member # 4264) on :
The Burlington Northern was formmed on 3/2/70. The CZ expired about three weeks later.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
I'll stand corrected; even a 'Wikicheck' could have avoided that error.
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
quote:Originally posted by TwinStarRocket: My Summer 1964 Burlington Timetable still shows a Texas Zephyr (#1&2) Denver-Houston daily via C&S/FW&D, as well as a daily stops-everywhere local. The Denver-Billings train (CBQ #29/30) apparently had no name. You could also go Denver-Billings via Alliance, NE on CBQ.
One of my favorite train names is the Ak-Sar-Ben Zephyr CHI-Lincoln.
**********************************
Twinstar: from one of your earlier posts: *************************************************
quote:Originally posted by TwinStarRocket: According to my 1964 CBQ timetable #29 was northbound and #30 southbound, and it had no name (but I like "Nightcrawler"). The equipment is listed as "Reclining Seat Chair Cars".
************************************** CB&Q-C&S "Nightcrawler", from Denver to Billings, was featured in an article in one of the train magazines, but I can't remember which one.
The #30 Nightcrawler could be confused with the #30 CB&Q EB Chicago to Lincoln train, the "Ak-Sar-Ben". How did they get that name? Hint: Cornhuskers.
Richard
Posted by gibg (Member # 2565) on :
Richard: Didn't "AK-SAR-BEN" "(Nebraska" spelled backwards) come from either (1) something at the University at Lincoln, or (2) some kind of big annual social event (like a Ball) in Omaha?
As another aside, I had a good friend (now long-deceased) who, after graduating from Yale and Yale Law School, satisfied his love of trains by getting a job as a conductor on the C&S overnight train from Denver to Casper -- UNTIL the C&S management "rediscovered" his resume and promptly moved him into their Legal Department. He became the railroad's attorney shortly thereafter and remained so, right up to his untimely early death.
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
I don't know, Gibg, the original source of the name, "Ak-Sar-Ben". A web search says it was also the name of a fraternal organization, "Knights of Ak-Sar-Ben", in Omaha. There was also an indoor racing complex called Ak-Sar-Ben. Possibly the Neb-Chi train was the first to use the name...I really don't know.
Richard
Posted by TwinStarRocket (Member # 2142) on :
"Nightcrawler" sounds dangerously close to "Snakes on a Train". I would sleep better if they didn't reveal that name in the timetable.
Posted by Ira Slotkin (Member # 81) on :
Oh my - what a wonderfully informative group of responses. I hadn't thought about all the railroad lines from all the cities. Different railroads with different trains from the same basic if not literal point to the same destination. How train travel has changed....
Thanks group.
Ira
Posted by Ira Slotkin (Member # 81) on :
Oh my - what a wonderfully informative group of responses. I hadn't thought about all the railroad lines from all the cities. Different railroads with different trains from the same basic if not literal point to the same destination. How train travel has changed....
Thanks group.
Ira
Posted by DonNadeau (Member # 61606) on :
@ Ira Slotkin
An amazing the number of choices.
If you get a chance, compare an Iowa rail map today with an historical one. Nearly unbelievable shrinkage.
Even a rather small city like Ottumwa was served by Buriington, Milwaukee, Rock Island, and Wabash (on way to Des Moines).
When Railway Express & U.S. Mail shipments ended and less than carload shipments and low volume lines went out of favor, wipe out! The financial conditions of lines like Rock Island didn't help either.
Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :
Ira -- I think we need a poem about this!....... We haven't had the pleasure of reading an Ira Slotkin verse for quite a while now!!
"Once we had 80 trains a day, But now they've nearly all gone away......"