I just turned to Fox news and they are covering an Amtrak crash of #188 near 30th St. station. #188 (Phil. to NY). No extensive details, yet. It appears to have derailed, with many injuries, although no info. on how serious the injuries. They are now saying #188 could have hit a freight train.
Richard
Posted by Jerome Nicholson (Member # 3116) on :
Latest news is five dead.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
While 99% of facts and circumstances regarding this incident are not yet known, the usual caveats regarding speculation should be noted. There likely will not be a final report from the NTSB for a year.
Of interest, during 1943, the PRR had a serious incident with fatalities apparently near where this incident occurred.
History.Com Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
The straight section before this curve is rated at 70mph; the curve itself 50mph.
RE the freight train, that appears to be misleading, a secondary collision perhaps though I've yet to see any freight cars with obvious damage. The locomotive came to rest not more than 25ft away from an apparently loaded tank car though.
Six known dead and it's still in the rescue stage.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
If you can get to it, here is New York Times coverage of the 1943 incident.
Regarding the equipment, the photos published by various outlets of ACS-64 #601 suggest frame damage. If that the case, the brand new locomotive will be written off. Several Amfleet Coaches would also appear "goners". Ironic how they "died" not far from the Budd plant where they were "born" 40 years ago.
With the maturity level of all here, I know we will leave the speculation regarding causes to other sites.
And finally to the humans suffering injuries - including fatal, nothing but thoughts and prayers. That is all we can offer.
Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
There is a screenshot that was taken from Amtrak's website last night where you can look at your train on a map with the MPH listed. It is "live" info (I completely forgot Amtrak had that function on their website). Anyway, last night someone posted the status of train #188 just as it approached the 50MPH curve. Amtrak's tracker said the train was going 106MPH.
There is another source that says the train was going 108MPH. I'm not sure how it works, but ATCS is a railfan hobby involving computers, special software, and some method of being able to have almost the same screen that the dispatcher has, with "live" train status and signals, switch alignments, and more. I know nothing about it----but I have seen people use it trackside on their 4G equipped laptops. So those guys are saying 108MPH.
There was also a retired NTSB official on the news this morning, and he used to work train crashes. He explained how speed will most likely be a factor in this crash because of where the cars landed as far as distance from rails, which side they went to (left or right), and the force required to undo special locking passenger train couplers.
So there are three somewhat decent sources that place speed as the culprit. And I know who the engineer is, but I can't say his name until it is out in the public venue. However, he came from here and worked Caltrain (which was operated by Amtrak at the time) as well as being based at Oakland for the Capitols/San Joaquins. He left here a few years ago and moved to New York. The media keep saying that the engineer is in ICU, however, he was texting from the hospital last night saying that his injuries were minor.
But wow, what a mess that whole scene is out there. I was very impressed with how they used the MCIP (Multiple Casualty Incident Plan) as well as effectively using ICS (Incident Command System). They seemed to do it by the book and things were extremely smooth considering what was happening. I used to train on MCIP drills all the time---once a year. It's the biggest and most expensive training there is, but it's worth it because when "the big one" hits an agency, the MCIP and ICS *will* work as long as everyone is trained on it, and that they use it correctly. Philly was a great example of how it's done.
Posted by Vincent206 (Member # 15447) on :
Is this the tweet that people are using to claim 106 mph? That tweet doesn't actually show that the train attempted to negotiate the curve at 106 mph, just that at its last recorded position the train was travelling at 106 mph.
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
Just a word on the ATCS monitoring (I do it here too) - it is subject to a large degree of inaccuracy - they would have timed occupation of track circuits with known lengths but the delays in reporting such occupation/clearance can vary a lot. Nonetheless, I doubt the margin of error would be big enough to even allow an estimated 106mph to be actually (for example) 70mph.
That last recorded speed from the website shows it on a segment of track limited to 70mph. Assuming it's not faked, that's damning in itself.
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
The NTSB have confirmed the preliminary data shows the train going over 100mph.
Posted by Jerome Nicholson (Member # 3116) on :
"An absolute, disastrous mess" is what one official called it in the colhttp://www.citylab.com/commute/2015/05/an-absolute-disastrous-mess/393155/?utm_source=nl_daily_link5_051315d light of day:
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
OK, nationally sourced news media (NBC) is now reporting the train was traveling at 100mph around a curve restricted to 50mph. It is also reported the Engineer has "lawyered up", which is his right.
It is further reported that this stretch of the Corridor has not yet been equipped with ASCES, or Amtrak's system of control that qualifies as Positive Train Control.
Now what remains as speculation is either the possibility of Engineer negligence (that includes falling asleep) or an equipment failure in the "drive by wire" systems within the ACS-64 locomotive.
Unless National media's reporting can be refuted, everything else is speculation that the mature participants at this Forum, choose not to be party to such.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
******* The train could have been traveling at over 100 miles an hour, twice the speed limit on that stretch of track, according to preliminary data recovered by the National Transportation Safety Board, which is investigating the accident.
and:
The point at which the derailment occurred is a series of facing point switches to allow northbound (railroad east) trains to either continue toward Trenton (via a 50-55 mph left hand curve) or continue east toward Atlantic City. The speed south of the interlocking is 70 or 75 mph, the speed north of the interlocking is 125 mph.
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: It is further reported that this stretch of the Corridor has not yet been equipped with ASCES, or Amtrak's system of control that qualifies as Positive Train Control.
Amtrak's PTC IS ACSES. However, it would seem that even if this section of track was fitted with the original ACSES (ie not the PTC "upgrade") then it would unlikely have had much effect as the system is too basic and not granular enough for short speed alterations.
I have seen it "reported" elsewhere that PTC is like ERTMS used in Europe, and ERTMS has barely started roll-out. Well, in fact the first ERTMS line was over 10 years ago and there are 90,000km of track fitted now - worldwide, not just Europe. The US' PTC will "feature" a few different versions of PTC, all incompatible with each other - but at least there are some groupings like BNSF and UP working together on their version of a "common" standard.
Opponents of ERTMS who support PTC try to point out that ERTMS could not possibly have been implemented in the US due to the number of different standards and railroads. They tend to go silent when asked how countries as diverse as Mexico, Saudi Arabia, Australia, France and South Korea (to list just a handful) can all achieve it...
Posted by mpaulshore (Member # 3785) on :
What I'm puzzled by is, even though ASCES hasn't been implemented yet on the stretch of track in question, shouldn't Amtrak's already-existing Automatic Train Control have prevented the speeding that caused the accident? Does anyone have any information on this?
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
Amtrak has had ACSES for nearly 15 years. "Automatic Train Control" is a generic term that can include ACSES but is vague enough to be used by the media to sound technical when they don't really know.
Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
FYI our posts in this thread are being monitored by the news media. I forgot that this stuff is searchable and probably said too much last night dammit.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
While avoiding speculation with regards to the instant matter, there are many a case of an Engineer "forgetting where he was" and involving passenger trains.
The most immediate coming to mind is the 1955 incident occurring on Jenkins' Curve at Bridgeport CT, on the New Haven. Occurring during wee hours and in fog conditions, a Westward train derailed, with the cause determined as excessive speed.
There was no train control system beyond Automatic Block, let alone cab signals, and not even radio communications.
The electric locomotive was written off, possibly because New Haven management desired to phase down electric operations.
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: While avoiding speculation with regards to the instant matter, there are many a case of an Engineer "forgetting where he was" and involving passenger trains.
It's human nature - how many times have you been driving along a freeway and suddenly wondered where you are? Fortunately rarely a problem on the roads but a different story when driving a train.
Both ERTMS and PTC have a display that shows what's coming up - whether a signal, a grade change, a speed limit. The PTC version I've seen scrolls left with the train in the bottom left. The ERTMS version scrolls vertically downwards with closer items taking up more of the display than items further away (logarithmic?).
Sample ERTMS display: the "upcoming" bit is the block to the right with the 0/500/1000/2000/4000 markers. Current speed 134kph, current limit 140kph, no reductions necessary now or in the near future.
Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
The media trucks showed up at several homes of people I was talking to online. Scary how simple conversations like that end up with them finding us and staking them out with a satellite truck out front. When a "person" got home from work yesterday, there was a big "NBC Investigative Unit" satellite truck parked in front of his house. He did not stop and drove right by.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
Heard it several years ago, "Never put in an email what you would have difficulty or be unwilling to explain on TV or in court." Seem that applies to web conversations as well.
I know it does. When searching on line for information on a specific rail section a few days ago, several items down in google's list was a conversation on rails that took place on this web 11 years ago. I was part of it, as was Geoff. It is sort of creepy to find this sort of stuff. At least what was said then did not included stuff I would be unwilling to explain or indicated breaking of confidentiality.
Posted by Vincent206 (Member # 15447) on :
In another forum there's a topic about the cost of LGA-DCA air shuttle tickets. For a seat on flight DL9929 (5/15) a coach ticket is currently priced at $4,618.20 (I counted 16 seats left). On flight DL9930 a coach seat is priced at $4,612.60 (I counted 3 seats left).
Posted by TwinStarRocket (Member # 2142) on :
I just googled "bagpipes and ponies". Yes, this forum is in the search results, and many of us are quoted from about 2008. Since I don't use my real name, at least I can only be identified as "An anonymous source within the community of rail enthusiasts advocating for the introduction bagpipes and ponies on Amtrak."
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Returning to topic after the immediate posting made for unexplained reasons, we have to accept the severity of this incident. Although there were eleven fatalities at Tonti during June '71, compared with eight here, fault was shared with the Illinois Central, who under the then existing contractual relationship with Amtrak, assumed all liability arising from such. There were many more at Bayou Canot, however there was clearly an outside party on to which the fault was laid.
Here at Frankford JCT (or Shore, or whatever else this incident will be identified as), there are clearly no other parties with which the fault can be shared. After all, Amtrak employed Passenger Engineer, Amtrak ROW, Amtrak equipment - May 12, 2015 is the blackest day in Amtrak's history.
Will the institution survive? Of course it will. Will it survive the "Micascope" under which all of its operations be subject to? In all likelihood it will. Will it survive the Conservative initiatives to "shut it down" or "privatize" it? Likely. Will a passenger have the same confidence that they will travel safely to Destination? I'm afraid not. It simply is analogous to the "New Yorker state of mind" post 9/11.
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: Here at Frankford JCT (or Shore, or whatever else this incident will be identified as), there are clearly no other parties with which the fault can be shared. After all, Amtrak employed Passenger Engineer, Amtrak ROW, Amtrak equipment - May 12, 2015 is the blackest day in Amtrak's history.
You're speculating, Mr. Norman. I'm pretty sure somebody here warned against that.
Let's let the investigators do their jobs to rule out anything external that could have been a factor. There have been too many accidents even in my lifetime where fingers have been pointed by supposedly educated people but when the accident report comes out it turns out there was a major twist in the story.
Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
Agree w/Geoff above. Appearances are as Gil stated things that are in the media, but that's because we're not doing the investigation. If any of the rumors are true, it involves much more than that. (I worded this really poorly. I hope it makes sense. I can't figure out a better way to do it right now).
Vincent206: OMG!!!! Those air fares are insane. A simple coach ticket from La Guardia to Reagan Airport is about $4,600.00??? I think that is MORE than a round-trip, first class ticket to Maui [SFO-OGG on United or OAK-OGG on Alaska]. That's just crazy!!! However, it is a perfect example of supply and demand.
(PS: Those who explained how my sources were wrong or off----it's not a big deal, but I don't post "junk". You can see what I posted matches exactly what the NTSB reported regarding speed, to the exact MPH. I know now not to get into specifics since Big Brother is always watching, but I just wanted to point out that I posted 100% correct information. What I listed [Thank God!!!)] were not my only sources of information. This incident has changed how I post to everything in the future. Not just about trains, but about everything, including Facebook, which I post to every day about politics).
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Here is both Associated Press and New York Times coverage of the possibility that outside parties, such as a trespasser, could have contributed to this incident:
Between the Board, now being assisted by the FBI, there are resources available to determine what object, if any, was intentionally thrown at the train.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
quote:Originally posted by TwinStarRocket: I just googled "bagpipes and ponies". Yes, this forum is in the search results, and many of us are quoted from about 2008. Since I don't use my real name, at least I can only be identified as "An anonymous source within the community of rail enthusiasts advocating for the introduction bagpipes and ponies on Amtrak."
Having been active in the bagpipes and ponies conversations, I'm not sure that I would want those to be what I am remembered for!
Posted by Iron Mountain (Member # 12411) on :
If the safety shortcomings on the section of track that #188 derailed on, were due to lack of funding then how can Amtrak suddenly have the resources to fix the problem now?
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Mr. Iron, something else planned will simply not be done. At another site, it was speculated that Amtrak will need a supplemental appropriation to cover additional costs and lost revenue resulting from the incident.
How true with any of the above, I know not.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Here is coverage from the Philly CBS outlet KYW that the line is again open.
Also of interest should be Holman Jenkins' column appearing in Saturday's Wall Street Journal.
Fair Use quotation:
The accident on a curve in North Philadelphia looks more and more like a case of madness or dysfunction on the part of the engineer, a problem in all modes of transport that technology is ripe to solve (except in bicycling, where operator insanity is prevalent). But a modest comfort is becoming visible as the crash turns into ammunition in the infrastructure spending wars. Whatever the dispute about the Northeast Corridor, routes like Chicago-San Francisco and Los Angeles-Seattle that are hopelessly uncompetitive with air, and that gobble up taxpayer subsidies of $150 or more per passenger, are widely understood to be indefensible. These train rides are larks, indulgences, time killers.
It wouldn’t be the equivalent of fracking, but if the Philly accident leads to a political consensus to free Amtrak of these money-pit routes so it can do a better job on the Northeast Corridor, then even our politics aren’t hopeless.
Most interesting Mr. Jenkins is not echoing the Conservative party line of "shutt'er down" and recognizes the essential nature of Corridor service.
Posted by PullmanCo (Member # 1138) on :
218+51+1
Amtrak needs the House, the Senate, and the President to exist. If Amtrak can cobble together a coalition of votes in the East, and not need Trains 1-8, 11, 14, 21-22 and 58-59 for votes, then watch for 180 day notices and the Adios drumheads.
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
One wonders whether much analysis has been done on the efficiencies of operation - and I don't mean how many pickles you get on your burger. Take Metro-North's operations out of Grand Central, for example: just under 50 departures from 5pm to 6pm from 44 platforms. Compare to London Waterloo which has over 50 departures in the same time frame, but from just 19 platforms. Chicago is famous for its double slip pointwork - mostly eliminated elsewhere in the world due to its exorbitantly high maintenance cost compared to simple switches (and it's not like Chicago is short of space for simpler pointwork).
I also hear that a west coast operator's custom PTC version (incompatible with other PTCs, of course) is struggling to work. Seems even the likes of GE, Safetran, et al can't re-invent something umpteen times over without actually getting worse at doing the job! Of course, these problems and "new" re-inventions have to be paid by somebody: ultimately the US taxpayer, whether directly or indirectly.
Posted by sbalax (Member # 2801) on :
I have a question. In the coverage I've seen most of the pictures show the "Engineer" wearing a "Conductor" uniform with the appropriate badge. Did this young man switch jobs? How common is that?
In our local news coverage they often use "Conductor" and "Engineer" interchangeably which gripes me no end!
Frank in cool and clear SBA
Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :
I'm not saying that the Philadelphia derailment was not a terrible and avoidable accident, since it was indeed -- but the Republicans in Congress are using this incident as a reason to defund AMTRAK, apparently. In the derailment, 8 people out of 300-some were killed, which is indeed very tragic, and our thoughts and prayers go out to their families.
But if a Jumbo jet crashes (be it by terrorism or whatever), and 300 out of 300 people are killed instantly, the same Republicans don't threaten to cut funding to the airlines, do they? (as we all know, airlines get MUCH more Federal funding than measly little AMTRAK)
My food for thought.......
(don't get me wrong -- I will likely vote Republican in 2016, for other reasons......)
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Frank--
I think this "Signature" used by a member over at another site, and a recently retired Locomotive Engineer, says it all:
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???
A good case in point; the Engineer of 188 (12) has obviously been "held from service pending investigation"; but then, so have the Conductor and the two Assistants - all for an event over which they had no control.
Posted by PullmanCo (Member # 1138) on :
Was there not a time where the Conductor was responsible for the freight or the passengers on his train?
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
The May 23 airing of The McLaughlin Group includes some five minutes of discussion regarding the incident. That program is presently streamed at http://www.mclaughlin.com/video.htm?i=1067 and the discussion is the final segment starting at about 21:00.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Mr. Pullman, that what any Book of Rules says, but in practice, in charge is whoever is driving the vehicle/craft.
Case in point: 4U 9525
Very safe assumption that the entire crew of 188 has been held from service (maybe the Snack Bar Attendant escaped). I'll bet the Conductor and two Assistants are wondering why they are sitting in the penalty box?
Posted by MargaretSPfan (Member # 3632) on :
Both the engineer and conductor of Train 188 were badly injured, and the poor conductor is almost certainly far too badly hurt to work now -- and, if reports of the extent of his injuries are accurate, he probably will never be able to return to work. He was in the bathroom of the first car -- the one that was crushed when it hit the catenary pole at 102 mph -- and broke his neck and his back, and injured both shoulders (I do not know how badly). Thus, "sitting in the penalty box" is certainly the least of his worries now and almost certainly for the rest of his life. He may well be a quadriplegic -- I do not know. I only know he broke his neck and his back, and hurt both shoulders.
The engineer got a concussion and was knocked unconscious for an unknown period of time, and got a wound on his head that took 14 staples to close, and both his legs were injured -- I do not know how badly. An engineer has to be able to climb the ladder up into the cab in order to be able to work, and the engineer's legs may be too badly injured to allow him to climb into a locomotive cab. Or at least for a while this may be the case.
Thus any talk about this particular crew being held out of service is irrelevant, because -- in the case of the conductor -- he is certainly far too badly injured to be able to return to work. I have no information about how bad the engineer's concussion was, and I have no idea how long it will take for him to recover sufficiently from his concussion so that that he will be able to safely operate passenger trains.
I have no information about what injuries, if any, the Assistant Conductors and the Snack Bar attendant may have suffered.
Posted by PullmanCo (Member # 1138) on :
If I were the General Counsel of Amtrak, I would hold all members of this crew from service until NTSB has completed the investigation.
WRT the Conductor, GBN worked with Railroad Retirement, and indeed has to this day a Railroad Retirement Card. What are the rules on total disability under Railroad Retirement? Anyone know the rules and coverages under Amtrak?
Much will depend on the outcome of the NTSB investigation. If the engineer committed an act of criminal negligence or gross civil negligence, ...
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
From Marriott Biscayne Bay Miami
Haven't read this yet, but The Times has been "part of my life" for over 65 years, and I trust it will be fair, balanced, and in depth:
From 30th Street Station, the train glided northwest out of Philadelphia, tracing the arc of the freeway. Near the old Schuylkill River Bridge, it jogged right, gathering speed, bound for the New Jersey border. Had you been standing anywhere near the tracks, you would have heard Amtrak 188 before you saw it, in the hum of the rail bed and the metallic shiver of the electricity in the overhead catenary wires. And then you would have felt it, in the vibration of the earth: the combined weight of a 98-ton locomotive and seven 50-ton cars, carrying a total of 258 people, eight of them employees.
Posted by Vincent206 (Member # 15447) on :
The article offers a couple of plausible explanations for the wreck, both involving a large object thrown at the locomotive causing the engineer to temporarily lose "situational awareness".
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: From Marriott Biscayne Bay Miami
Haven't read this yet, but The Times has been "part of my life" for over 65 years, and I trust it will be fair, balanced, and in depth:
Sadly you'd be very wrong. A lovely, flowery article which relates more to the author's dreams than actual reality. Where do I start? - "21,300 miles of rail operated by Amtrak." No, Amtrak travel over 21,300 route miles but operate a much smaller amount. - "“cab signals,” an internal device that automatically displays information about obstacles or other trains ahead." No, it provides limited information about the signal ahead. There is absolutely zero information about obstacles or other trains. - "Europe/Asia us what is known as PTC in the US." It's like comparing oranges and oil rigs. - "Traction motors lost their grip [on the rails]." Since they never grip anyway, there was nothing to lose. - "The fate of 188, by contrast, appeared to be a genuine mystery. There was no obvious cause, no readily apparent smoking gun." Within hours there was reasonable evidence that the train was speeding - not only from the way the vehicles left the track, but also by Amtrak's own train tracker system that shows the last reported speeds of the train. While I hesitate to jump to conclusions, the primary cause of this one was fairly obvious. - "A notoriously tricky piece of track." It had a speed limit. Engineers are trained to know the speed limits. Notorious would be something like a steep, twisting down grade with mixed trains. Not a speed limit.
And the final nail in the coffin: the story describes in intimate detail the engineer's life story and the hours up to the event - and then admits near the bottom they couldn't even speak to him. So everything is pure speculation, or anecdotes from 3rd parties - the worst kind of journalism.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
From Bedroom A line 5240 train 52 (26) car 32504 sitting in Sanford
As I noted earlier, I have not read the article. I realize not all hold The Times with the same esteem as do I.
Thinking it over driving up here to Sanford, I was surprised that the article was published prior to release of the NTSB investigation. While on the surface, it would appear Amtrak "owns it", and with some $150M in pending claims, I trust The Times Legal Department carefully reviewed the timing of this publication.
Those here who object to this journalism, The Times has an independent Public Editor, and I'd suggest making any concerns known to that office.
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
I don't recall anything that could be considered libel in the article so legally it's probably fine. It was just the clearly embellished nature of the "story" that irked me, along with its technical errors.
As to contacting the editor, what's the point. The story is done and "out there", and when the next story comes out the chances are there will be other errors.
I have no opinion on the rest of their journalism.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
public@nytimes.com
Here is The Times Public Editor's e-address lest anyone here have concerns regarding any journalism appearing in The Times.
I don't know of any other news source having such a position.
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: public@nytimes.com
Here is The Times Public Editor's e-address lest anyone here have concerns regarding any journalism appearing in The Times.
I don't know of any other news source having such a position.
Slight correction: here is an email address handled by a bunch of low paid staffers whose job it is to filter through the junk and occasionally pass on anything which they might consider of merit to the next highest level of management.
If this newspaper is any different from any other public-facing organisation with thousands++ of customers (readers?) I'd be amazed. Editors don't have time to read Joe Public's emails.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
All right everybody, I've now read the article in print sitting in my Ekornes Stressless easy chair, which means "I've read it".
My overall impression is that it is an ill-timed human interest story long on the interest, short on fact. In view of the imminent release of the NTSB Preliminary Report, publication of this article, could have waited until that document is within the public domain.
But the fact remains "Amtrak owns it" like no prior fatal incident, such as Bayou Canot or Tonti. There are reportedly $150M in claims pending, as well as possible criminal prosecution. Much as I wish I didn't have to say this, Gray Lady allowed more speculation to appear in print than "we" have allowed ourselves here at our essentially self-moderated Forum.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
The Wall Street Journal has posted at their site an article with further information. In essence, "the train and infrastructure are off the hook":
Investigators probing the deadly Amtrak derailment in Philadelphia last May have ruled out issues with the locomotive, track or train signals as causes, an official with the National Transportation Safety Board said Monday.
The NSTB released a trove of documents from its investigation on Monday. While the safety board didn’t identify a probable cause of the accident, the elimination of those factors appeared to winnow down the potential causes to the actions of the engineer behind the train’s controls.
The NTSB official said investigators had twice interviewed the engineer, Brandon Bostian. The official described Mr. Bostian as “extremely cooperative.”
The board is expected to formally declare a probable cause this spring.
Regardless of what is contained within the Final Report, we must not lose sight that "Amtrak owns it", as distinct from immediately noted Tonti, where it can be said the IC owned that one. Of further interest; under then existing contractual relationships, IC assumed all liability arising from such.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
NTSB Final Report is released. Engineer lost "situational awareness", no PTC, problems with evacuation of cars, no seat belts, no enclosed overhead compartments.
addendum: here is NBC Nightly News coverage aired this evening:
At nearly the end of the report, it is noted that criminal prosecution is not yet "off the table". Why push it; the Engineer, Mr. Bostian I'd dare say, is already "doing life without parole".
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
I get the feeling they are grasping at straws. I think they're trying to determine the cause by elimination. That tells me that they still don't really know.
If the engineer was distracted by radio traffic, would that really explain why the train was going 100 mph over a 50 mph curve?
Richard
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
We can armchair quarterback all we want, and frankly some of the NTSB reports approach armchair quarterbacking, something like some of the court decisions where they take hours to debate on whether a decision make is seconds was reasonable or not. However, yes it is possible to lose "situational awareness" in many situations, it is just when operating a train it is hard to significantly change speeds in a matter of seconds and impossible to change direction at all. In both NTSB reports and ICC reports before them their suggestions always seemed to be on the lines of "if only" they had had one more step in the laundry list of "lights, bells, and whistles" the accident could have been prevented. If it was a timetable and trainorder piece of railroad, then it should have had ABS. If it had ABS, then it should have had ATC, and on and on.
I have no idea what they could charge this poor guy with. As Mr. N said, Mr. Bostian is effectively already doing life without parole. He is probably done when it comes to working in his profession. That is a sentence.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Richard, there was conjecture within the Board. One member dissented stating the primary cause was the lack of PTC. The majority held that "situational awareness" was primary and that the PTC deficiency was contributing.
I think track is best advised to both screen and train their Engineers in "situational awareness" in.much the same manner as do airlines. Hey those trains are operating at 135 and soon will do so at 160.
But air transport is not immune to situational awareness. Try Asiana 214 at SFO. At least that incident occurring when it did, held down coverage of Megantic.
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
How many of us have been driving for a while on a freeway and suddenly realise one has no idea of where one is until one passes the next sign? Fortunately there are rarely sudden changes in speed limits on freeways. It happens and engineers are no exception, but fortunately rarely results in a problem - until it does. Airline pilots, those people who we generally think are top notch, are also no exception even when their ears and eyes are telling them one thing but their instruments are telling them something else. One can train employees as much as you like but you're dealing with Mk.1 Human.
If radio chatter is a problem - and I don't really know if it is - then perhaps secure one-to-one comms is the next Big Step. Dare I say it but to-train communication in Europe is generally one-to-one - and drivers are free to ignore any non-emergency incoming calls in the context of sterile cab - braking for a red signal or station stop, for example, same concept as the sterile cockpit upon landing or take-off. But signallers (dispatchers) can still group call or broadcast any emergencies, and commuter trains with only a driver and no other crew have a way for the signallers to talk directly over the train's PA system to passengers.
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
I've read, elsewhere, that many are suggesting that all Amtrak trains operate with a two man engineering crew. I know that is very controversial, but maybe it's something that should happen.
I've even read suggestions for (heaven forbid!) seat belts for every passenger.
Richard
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
Plenty of crashes with two people up front. It's impossible to calculate how many, if any, accidents might have been avoided by having that second person, but the fact there are accidents with two people suggest it's not a solution.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Two in the cab for this one - 1955 Bridgeport CT. Loss of situational awareness:
Seat belts, never: will the train crew be required to "play Flight Attendant" and check every passenger before they highball?
Enclosed luggage racks: surprised this has only been implemented on Acela to date.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Associated Press has reported that the Engineer wants his "pieces of silver" as well. While of course the $50K he seeks is pocket change in a $300M incident, it certainly is testament to our societal "grab what I can" mentality.
If the Engineer has faced criminal charges, that has not been reported. Also not reported is the disposition of any employee discipline assessed.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
PHILADELPHIAThe speeding Amtrak engineer involved in a derailment that killed eight people and injured about 200 others in Philadelphia wont face criminal charges, the city district attorneys office said Tuesday.
Prosecutors said they cant prove engineer Brandon Bostian acted with conscious disregard when he accelerated the train to 106 mph on a 50 mph curve.
Federal investigators concluded that Mr. Bostian lost track of his location, or situational awareness, before the May 12, 2015, crash after learning that a nearby commuter train had been struck with a rock. They found no evidence he was under the influence of drugs or alcohol or distracted by a cellphone
President Judge Marsha Neifield of Philadelphia Municipal Court ordered the city District Attorneys Office on Thursday to reverse course and charge Amtrak engineer Brandon Bostian with involuntary manslaughter and reckless endangerment.
To avoid a potential conflict of interest, the District Attorney's Office responded that it would refer the prosecution to the state attorney general.
Neifield issued the order following a request from lawyers for victims of the May 12, 2015, derailment of Amtrak Train 188 that the case be reopened. On Tuesday, the District Attorney's Office had said that, following a lengthy investigation, it had concluded there was insufficient evidence to bring charges
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
CNN, along with other newssources, has reported that Mr. Bostian now faces criminal charges:
The Amtrak engineer in a 2015 derailment in Philadelphia that killed eight people and injured more than 200 was charged Friday with a felony count of causing or risking a catastrophe and multiple counts of misdemeanor involuntary manslaughter.
The second-degree felony charge that Brandon Bostian faces carries a punishment of up to 10 years in prison. It alleges he was reckless in the operation of the train. He also is charged with eight counts on involuntary manslaughter, a first-degree misdemeanor, and "numerous" charges of reckless endangerment, a second-degree misdemeanor, Pennsylvania Attorney General Josh Shapiro said Friday
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
In her coverage, Gray Lady has provided more regarding how a Lower Court has such standing to reverse a decision made by a prosecutor:
Thomas R. Kline, a lawyer for the Jacobs family, said he was worried the district attorneys decision left no other recourse for charges. But then a former city prosecutor, Richard A. Sprague, called him and told him about another option, using an obscure Pennsylvania law, Mr. Kline said.
The law allows anyone to file a private criminal complaint in municipal court requesting misdemeanor charges against someone. In Pennsylvania, involuntarily manslaughter and reckless endangerment are misdemeanors.
Might it be time for the Javert's in this world to move on?
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
The Engineer, Brian Bostian, has had the criminal charges against him dropped:
A judge Tuesday dismissed all criminal charges against the Amtrak engineer blamed in a train crash that killed eight outside Philadelphia in 2015.
The ruling was delivered after a preliminary hearing for engineer Brandon Bostian, 34.
Judge Thomas Gehret called the crash more likely an accident than criminal negligence in dismissing the charges.
Hope nobody thinks that Mr. Bostian's life will be "back to normal" being "restored to service with seniority unimpaired but without payment for time lost". What discipline, if any, assessed by Amtrak is "sealed".
Although I believe Mr. Bostian is a good man who wanted only to operate trains reliably and safely, no road under FRA jurisdiction will again afford him that opportunity. Maybe some railroad museum will allow him.
Posted by MargaretSPfan (Member # 3632) on :
I am profoundly relieved that all criminal charges have been dropped against Brandon Bostian. Treating him like a common criminal was a travesty of justice. That poor man.
And -- Every. Single. Time. that any train has an accident and either things get badly damaged and / or people get hurt and maybe killed, the railroad's management *always* "throws the engineer under the bus". With this as the horrible reality, why on earth would anyone even think for one minute of being a locomotive engineer? I know -- the paycheck, but, really -- being a locomotive engineer nowadays forces every engineer to gamble with his or her future. Seems as though this society has gone from "innocent until proven guilt" as what most people believe to the Napoleonic "guilty until proven innocent" as what most people assume. What a shame.
And because of this horrible reality, and just the human need to find someone to blame, and right away, all locomotive engineers are, in a way, playing Russian roulette with their lives by being locomotive engineers.
None of this means that I do not want all incidents properly investigated by impartial and very qualified investigators of high integrity. Then, and only then, decide whether or not the engineer was really at fault. But this garbage of automatically throwing the engineer to the wolves has got to stop. NOW.
Footnote to this discussion: There is a lot of evidence that Bostian's train and two other passenger trains were shot at that night. Do any of you think for one minute that you could control a train if you were being shot at?
And the FRA's glazing regs require -- as far as bullet-resistance goes -- that the glazing be able to stop a bullet no larger than 22 caliber from penetrating the glazing. No FRA-approved glazing can stop any bullet larger than 22 caliber from penetrating the glazing. No, I have no idea how large the bullets were that were being fired at Bostian's train, but they may well have been much larger than 22 caliber.
Also, it is fact that during the gunfire, Bostian pushed himself away from the engineer's console and in doing so, apparently pushed the throttle away from him, which made the train speed up. He hit his head and was knocked unconscious for 15 minutes. His head wound required 14 stitches to close. Of course he was not able to remember what happened during that time. He was unconscious!
All this was reported +right after the accident. So, no, there was NO criminal intent on Bostian's part, and prosecuting him for what happened was a huge travesty, and a huge miscarriage of justice. But people were crying for blood and wanted someone -- anyone -- punished, and FAST. So Bostian paid the expected high price. He even had to do a "perp walk" - twice! -- outside the courtroom, just to pl;ease the media. For shame!
(This case is why some of us call it our "criminal injustice system". Might makes right, and whoever has the best arguer (lawyer) who can the most skillfully and effectively play on a jury's emotions will win. What a shame.)
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
Margaret: What I see here is also police and prosecutorial laziness. If there has been any effort to go after those that initiated the event, that is the shooters, it sure hasn't been publicised. Much easier to go after a man that was literally caught in the crossfire while doing his job.
Posted by MargaretSPfan (Member # 3632) on :
George Harris-- Thank you very much for the support. At least some people see what is going on.
I do not see the lack of investigation as laziness on the part of the police and prosecutors, but rather, as has been pointed out elsewhere, as the results of the actions of a D. A. who saw this horrible crash as a way to get some free publicity, which would help him during his next election campaign. Sounds plausible to me. Bostian was thus just a convenient tool to use to further someone's political career. That is pretty disgusting, but elected official rarely pass up a chance to get some good publicity after a tragedy.
"In a war, truth is the first casualty." This also applies to any really big tragedy.
Poor Brandon Bostian.......
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :