Two families traveled from Van Nuys (just outside Los Angeles) to Oakland for San Francisco, going up on Thanksgiving Day. Our family had a 2 hour drive to get to the station so we left early not knowing what traffic would be like. In the end it was very light and we arrived a full hour early. We picked Van Nuys because of the free parking and being reasonably close to freeways, unlike Los Angeles where it would have cost $$ to park.
Though the platform at Van Nuys is long, it's not quite long enough for the Coast Starlight, so a "double spot" of two car lengths had to be performed. There was a private car on the back which was to be unhooked at Oakland but was otherwise a standard formation train as far as I know. One recent change was the (re-)addition of a business class car: supposedly the downstairs was the upgraded section though I did not see it, but the upstairs was labelled "business class passengers only" when accessing from either end. Though the train was allegedly sold out, there were always plenty of seats available, with the upstairs of the business class car only ever having half a dozen people at any one time.
Everybody talks about the Pacific Coast scenery which indeed was most pleasant. But fewer mention the ascent over Cuesta and the subsequent descent the other side. Several tunnels, some sharp bends, and a couple of horseshoe bends including one where you can see your upcoming track a hundred feet below you all make for some great scenery.
Timekeeping up until Paso Robles was just about "on time" but at some point we encountered a car on the tracks and a train ahead. Now, I'm not entirely sure what the situation was but it involved several miles' worth of rolling forward at 5-10mph for a hundred feet, slamming on the brakes, moving forward again for a couple more hundred feet, slamming on the brakes again, moving off... repeat ad nauseum. It's almost as if the vehicle was actually driving along the tracks, not across them! As hinted, the engineer - not just this incident but everywhere - was really jerky on the brakes, and also the acceleration with lots of slack and slamming of cars together. Arrival into Oakland was an hour late.
We took the Thruway bus to Pier 39 at Fisherman's Wharf. The drop off was right outside the pier entrance were a lot of tour buses stop and where there is also a taxi stand. Seeing as it was late, I was on my own with two young kids and one large suitcase, I asked the first taxi if he would take me to the Holiday Inn Fisherman's Wharf. He agreed but when we got in he was muttering about the Golden Gateway Holiday Inn. I pointed out we'd said the Fisherman's Wharf one and he was not happy. When we got to the hotel he complained that he'd waited 2 hours for a fare and this journey was too short. I told him he was lucky to get our fare then, lest he wait another 2 hours with no income at all - and Fiaherman's Wharf at that time of night is dead, so I'm not sure where he thought his big money fare was coming from. It's attitudes like this that make it understandable why people are switching in droves to more modern options like Uber and Lyft.
HI Fisherman's Wharf? I'll submit my usual TripAdvisor review soon but for the purposes of this forum: seen better days, surly front desk and bar staff, but good breakfast and friendly housekeepers and waiters.
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
I wasn't entirely clear where the bus would pick us up from since the Fisherman's Wharf area has a number of transit stops, taxi ranks, one way areas, etc. I phone up Amtrak and he was able to give me a good description: exactly the same place where we were dropped off, despite being the wrong direction. Eventually I did locate an Amtrak bus stop sign which was lost in a sea of other signs. Up to this point the train was reporting on time but I then received a text message saying it was delayed 45 minutes.
After a wait at Oakland station (slightly warmer than outside, some vending machines for snacks, drinks, and coffee, but otherwise nothing else either in the station or in the immediate neighborhood) people started moving outside for the expected arrival of #11. That time came and went and eventually a lady came out and bellowed effectively that two Capitol Corridor trains would be coming in first and #11 was being held at Emeryville until the station was clear. When I say "bellowed", I mean she had a powerful set of lungs, effective at getting the message across. I'm not sure why loudspeakers weren't used as they were used to announce the arrival of other trains.
So firstly one Capitol Corridor train came in from the north and occupied track 1. This was empty from the yard and stopped for about half an hour while loading. In the meantime a southbound Capitol Corridor stopped on track 2 and quickly left. Once the one on track 1 had also departed, #11 entered the station 102 minutes late. Obviously we don't know everything going on in the dispatching center but it did seem #11 could have been and gone without delaying either of the Capitol Corridors.
Anyway, the station staff had us coach passengers stand 10 feet back from the yellow line in a vague form of a line, albeit one where everybody faced the track instead of the person in front of them. She explained that the conductor might start taking tickets from the south end, or he might take them from the north end. As it happened, the coach cars were a little further north than expected (outside the parking/bus lot) so the conductor collected tickets from that end. Fortunately, our families' strategy was to have one person at either end of the "queue" to maximize our chances of 10 seats together. He scanned the tickets, opened his eyes wide at the prospect of 10 seats, and pointed us towards the first coach car behind the lounge car. I'd half expected the car to be empty given the number of people boarding (and, I assume, disembarking at Emeryville) but no, the car was half full so new boarders were directed to all the cars (4, I think). Of course, we didn't get 10 seats together, but each family did at least get a block together, the two rows a few rows from each other. That met my expectations and hopes.
Departure was 107 minutes late and I suspected we'd be following the southbound Capitol Corridor stopping service but we'd been delayed so much that it wasn't an issue. However, even more passengers at San Jose meant we left there an additional 5 minutes behind schedule. The conductor explained that we probably wouldn't make up any time until San Luis Obispo but thereafter there is a lot of padding in the schedule. Indeed, the northbound and southbound times across Cuesta are very different and we arrived at San Luis Obispo at sunset 83 minutes late.
An incident happened in the lounge car after SLO. I won't go into detail as it is a matter for Amtrak to deal with. Suffice to say the conductor's behavior towards a 19 month old and an 80 year old was unjustified. Later on, a clearly confused lady in, I'm guessing, her 50s couldn't find her seat. The conductor didn't bother to find out where she was going, only that she was (possibly? probably? maybe?) a coach passengers and "the coach seats are that way". The lady disembarked at Santa Barbara but was that actually her destination? Given the incident in the lounge car, I was torn between trying to ensure she had whatever help she needed and staying away from the conductor after that incident.
Dinner in the diner was a hasty affair with the servers impatient to seat people and then to get rid of them after eating. I know they like to get things cleaned up before arrival at LA but closing the dining car 165 minutes before arrival? Not exactly customer friendly, and it has put me off spending money during such an arrival next time in the loss-making dining car.
Finally, we approached Van Nuys where we were warned of a possible delay while a train in front cleared the station. In the end we slowed to 30-40mph for a couple of miles, by which time we slid straight into the station. Another double spot and we were off the train (51 late). According to the Amtrak website it arrived 45 late into Los Angeles.
One final note: this was the same crew (#5) and trainset in both directions, but the crew southbound might as well have been completely different people. I would rated them 10 out of 10 northbound but only 5 out of 10 southbound. I guess tiredness sets in.
Posted by PullmanCo (Member # 1138) on :
Well, let's see...
2 days northbound, Lord knows when they arrived in Seattle. Overnight. Back on the train, two days southbound.
They missed Thanksgiving Day with their families, and not even time and a half helps with that.
Even on one of my longest international flights, PHL-TLV, the attendants work the flight and have 30 hours before they are back on duty for the backhaul.
I can understand the crew being cranky.
As for the HI, well, there's a reason I don't often go to IHG properties. In addition, there's the small matter that they probably live an hour or more away, and are working probably two jobs to keep a living.
Not making excuses, but...
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
Cranky, Mr. Pullman? Sorry, no excuse for cranky in the customer service business. I never saw a cranky Pullman porter and they had far worse conditions at their away terminal than Amtrak employees.
Whatever the cause, Amtrak needs to figure it out and fix it.
And, Geoff, thanks for the detailed trip report. Apparently the CS isn't quite the flagship it once was. Sorry it wasn't a better trip but any train trip is always enjoyable, just some more so than others.
As to cranky taxi cab drivers, I feel your pain. We had two in SF and one was clearly paranoid (drove around our destination block 3 times he was so intent in telling us the bus drivers were out to get him). Switched to Uber after that and never going back: nice automobiles, friendly drivers, less expensive, faster response (at least in SF and New Orleans), and transparent payment process. Glad we live in a country where free enterprise is alive and well.
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
Sorry if I gave the impression it was a bad trip - it wasn't overall. Just the usual mix of good points and less good points.
As for the taxi driver, I did make it clear to him the destination before we got inside and he agreed to that. Granted, yes it was a short distance, but that's not my problem if you agree to the fare and somehow hear "Fisherman's Wharf" as "Golden Gateway". It was more the amusement factor of claiming to wait 2 hours for a fare and then moaning about only getting $7. Best pick a better spot, matey.
And as for cranky customer service in general, I agree with Palmland: you're customer facing, maybe you've had a bad day, but you're the face of the business. Act like you want to be there because if you don't then there are plenty more who are willing to step up.
I forgot to mention that although the outbound trip was Thanksgiving Day, there was not a hint of it on the train apart from a final "happy Thanksgiving" as we disembarked in Oakland. I have heard in years gone past of the occasional decoration or special in the diner but I suppose those days are gone. Again, I wasn't expecting anything but was curious to see if they would do anything different.
Some other random notes, at the risk of sounding critical again:
1. It seems boarding could be sped up significantly if station staff - where available - could check tickets and give seat assignments. The conductors have their electronic gizmos to scan tickets and as I understand it, they're web connected so anybody buying a ticket last minute will be known about. It wouldn't take much to plan. At each of San Jose, San Luis Obispo, Santa Barbara, and probably others, boarding passengers were made to wait in the station building until all passengers disembarking had done so, before then walking to the train, waiting to get their tickets checked, seats assigned, and finally boarding.
2. Seat reservations. Some of you on this forum have mentioned it. Amtrak have no method of planning group seats in advance: it's as if it's a complete surprise when people turn up and ask for seats together. Again, the conductors' gizmos hold the information so they know what's coming up but they don't use that information. FWIW Amtrak considers a "group" to be 20 people or more, and for that they do have a department to manage it and I assume block out a coach section for such.
3. Food variety. I know they have contracts and buy partially cooked stuff by the bucketload, but a little more variation would be nice. Last year on the Empire Builder I had the same meal three times because I didn't like the sole other option. This time the diner ran out of Mac & Cheese so the only kids' option left was a hotdog and my kids (quite rightly) are suspicious of eating gunk like that. They ended up sharing the adult chicken dish, though the server couldn't be bothered to bring an extra plate (foil tray instead). Just have three menus, for example, so Mon/Tues origin departures would have menu A; Wed/Thurs would get menu B; and Fri/Sat/Sun menu C.
Posted by PullmanCo (Member # 1138) on :
Along with Mr Palmland, I've ridden Pullmans, albeit as a child. My last trip on a Pullman was a National series 4-6-4 car on the City of St Louis/City of Los Angeles in the summer of 1967.
I still remember the upper berth windows
WRT to customer service, I tend to agree, but Amtrak has to decide what it wants to be: An essential service of the Government, or a business in business to make and keep customers.
Remember, even if you had a 20 year Pullman man move across to Amtrak from UP or ATSF in 1971, he probably retired in 1991. IF there are Amtrak employees now who were even trained by Pullman men, they are becoming few and far between.
As far as Thanksgiving goes, it used to be that the railroad dining car services ditched the regular menu on Thanksgiving day, and highlighted a Turkey and all the trimmings meal in all cars. Ditto Christmas Day, indeed, ditto Independence Day. Even in the early years of Amtrak (fall 74 to Fall 77), when I would take the Starlight from Santa Barbara to LAUPT, Mom and Dad, I never saw a single hint of Thanksgiving on the rails.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
quote:Originally posted by PullmanCo: WRT to customer service, I tend to agree, but Amtrak has to decide what it wants to be: An essential service of the Government, or a business in business to make and keep customers.
So true Mr. Pullman. And I think we all know which course Amtrak is taking. I still feel they should spin off all sleeping/business/dining operations and see if they can be managed better by an outside company. Amtrak can then concentrate on just providing basic transportation.
With the holiday season upon us, thought all might enjoy this photo on the back of the C&O/B&O timetable in December 1965 (is that really 50 years?). Paul Reistrup was running passenger operations then and trying to make a go of it and still maintain B&O's legendary great service. Then came May 1971.
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
Very interesting report, Geoff. I don't think you have been overly critical. I think you have noted all too common problems that most would find difficult or annoying.
When our SMART train (Sonoma-Marin Rapid Transit) starts up, next year, they will use something called a "clipper card" for purchasing tickets. I'm not really familiar with the card, I guess it works in conjunction with your debit or credit card. You just swipe the card, upon boarding, and that's all you need to do. It can also be used for parking fees. I don't know if it could be used for seat assignment.
The Clippper Card may be well familiar to many who use public transportation. It is new to me, however.
Richard
Posted by Vincent206 (Member # 15447) on :
@palmland
I think it's time to start looking at de-centralizing the control of the LD trains away from Amtrak HQ. I'm not sure how the discussion would progress, however. I'm fear that the Mica-crowd and the NARP crowds would dominate the process and the discussion wouldn't move very far--kind of like most political discussions these days. Nevertheless, there are many improvements that could be made on the LD trains that would boost ridership and decrease costs. But most changes will be resisted by critics and Amtrak labor groups.
@Richard
I'm glad to see that SMART will use the Clipper Card. I visit the Bay Area often enough that I have a Clipper Card and find it very convenient. Before I travel to the Bay Area, I load $25 on my Clipper Card (via my credit card) and use the Clipper Card for traveling around the Bay Area. One place I like to use the Clipper Card is if I arrive in Oakland via an on-time Coast Starlight, I walk up to the Oakland ferry terminal and take the ferry across the bay to downtown SF. The Clipper Card covers the ferry fare with one swipe across the card reader. The Clipper Card also covers BART fares if I arrive at OAK or SFO. It's much easier than buying a ticket for every different train, boat or bus.
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
Similar to Oyster card in London by the sound of it (which certainly wasn't the first). But on that one you have to swipe in and out because it's not flat fare there. However, using the Oyster card is a fair bit cheaper than cash/credit for the exact same route.
Talking of BART, it's a shame there is no integration between either Amtrak station and any BART station. Similarly, though Amtrak share the station at San Jose, and an all-stations Caltrain ride to San Francisco is quicker than Amtrak+Bus to Oakland->San Francisco, I wonder why that's not promoted more.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
quote:Originally posted by Geoff Mayo: Talking of BART, it's a shame there is no integration between either Amtrak station and any BART station. Similarly, though Amtrak share the station at San Jose, and an all-stations Caltrain ride to San Francisco is quicker than Amtrak+Bus to Oakland->San Francisco, I wonder why that's not promoted more.
There was a time when this connection was promoted more. However, if the northbound Starlight is late, it can easily be so late as to be later than the last northbound Caltrain. However, the population of the Peninsula is such that there still are probably a lot of people that make the Starlight/Caltrain transfer. There is also the baggage issue, as Caltrain has limited locations to stash baggage, and certainly no checked baggage system.
Posted by PullmanCo (Member # 1138) on :
Huge irony. Look at the categorization of jobs by skin color in that photo.
I know how far we have to go, but I'd sure like a lot of people to see that picture and realize just how far America has come.
As far as operations of dining car and hotel departments (aka lounges, diners, and sleepers), I seriously doubt anyone would want to enter that business. The owning railroads shuttered Pullman because it bled red ink. Amtrak was created because the railroads bled red ink.
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
quote:Originally posted by George Harris: However, if the northbound Starlight is late, it can easily be so late as to be later than the last northbound Caltrain.
I did consider that but bustitution is common for missed connections elsewhere and I doubt locating a bus or two in San Jose would be much of a problem.
There is also the Emeryville/Oakland bus transfer system. I'm not sure why SF passengers get off at one stop and then passengers from SF board at the next - maybe cleaning but that could be served with a longer dwell time. This means double the number of buses required, twice a day than if the same buses brought passengers from SF and then took ex-train passengers to SF.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
quote:Originally posted by PullmanCo: Huge irony. Look at the categorization of jobs by skin color in that photo.
I know how far we have to go, but I'd sure like a lot of people to see that picture and realize just how far America has come.
As far as operations of dining car and hotel departments (aka lounges, diners, and sleepers), I seriously doubt anyone would want to enter that business. The owning railroads shuttered Pullman because it bled red ink. Amtrak was created because the railroads bled red ink.
I prefer to think of the photo as a tribute to the railroaders of that era who took pride in doing their best to provide outstanding service during difficult times. With the benefit of 50 years hindsight, it is easy to say what should have been done differently.
As to a private enterprise handling rail passengers we don't have to look too far to see it is possible. While the jury is still out on IP's efforts, Rocky Mountaineer operates quite successfully on a regular schedule. For a company that provides a broader range of services, how about Virgin Trains in the U.K.
And for those nasty funding issues, today's Trains newswire has some encouraging news on a $300 billion 5 year Transportation bill in congress:
According to the National Association of Railroad Passengers, the passenger rail breakdown includes the following:
"Amtrak Northeast Corridor – $2.6 billion over five years Amtrak National Network – $5.5 billion over five years Gulf Coast Working Group – Of the total amount made available to the Office of the Secretary of Transportation and the Federal Railroad Administration, for each of fiscal years 2016 and 2017, $500,000 would be used to convene the Gulf Coast rail service working. Consolidated Rail Infrastructure and Safety Improvement – $1.103 billion over five years. Federal-State Partnership for State of Good Repair – $997 million over five years. Restoration and Enhancement Grants – $100 million over five years. Amtrak Office of Inspector General – $105 million over five years. Grants for Positive Train Control – From the Mass Transit Account of the Highway Trust Fund $199 million for fiscal year 2017 to assist in financing the installation of positive train control systems."
Posted by MargaretSPfan (Member # 3632) on :
Geoff Mayo --- Thanks for the interesting and honest trip report. It is important to know the details of what people's experiences on Amtrak are.
About Clipper cards --- I detest those dratted things! Why? 1. There is NO way to tell how much money you have left on it just by looking at it. 2. It is easy to forget to swipe the thing when you are in a hurry -- and the fine for riding without paying is very high -- $270! (That is an old number, and is probably much more now.) 3. AFAIK, CalTrain has no Clipper machines on their trains.
I much prefer the old tickets I used to use on BART. Those tickets had both a magnetic strip with all the info the fare gates needed, AND PRINTED numbers telling the passenger how much money was left on the ticket. And BART even used to have special times at certain stations when you could turn in a bunch of small-value tickets for one ticket that would have the total value of all your small-value tickets. Nice!!
About the northbound Coast Starlight-Caltrain connection --- Do NOT try this! As George Harris pointed out, if the NB Starlight is late, it would be VERY easy for pax getting off at San Jose to miss the last NB Caltrain to SF, which leaves at 10:30 pm 7 days a week. The Starlight leaves San Jose at 8:23 pm, IF it is on time. That is only a bit more than 2 hours before the last Caltrain leaves -- and, if you do not have a Clipper card, you CANNOT buy ANY CalTrain ticket before the day of use. That is how their fare machines work. I recommend staying overnight in San Jose, then taking any Caltrain north the next day. NB!! as George Harris said, CalTrain has VERY limited space for luggage -- only ONE car per 5-car gallery car trainset has dedicated space for luggage, and that space is not large -- CalTrain removed 2 double seats (seating a total of 4 people) for the luggage racks. Also -- VERY important -- CalTrain often runs SRO, but I am not sure about their load factors for NB trains out of San Jose. (I am going to call them and find out, and will post that info in a separate Comment when I find out.)
Geoff Mayo --- You wrote: "I did consider that but bustitution is common for missed connections elsewhere and I doubt locating a bus or two in San Jose would be much of a problem."
You were replying to a comment by George Harris about pax riding the NB Coast Starlight who are trying to connect with a NB CalTrain at San Jose. Amtrak's responsibility to those pax ends at San Jose, so bustituting Amtrak pax from San Jose to points on the SF Peninsula is not Amtrak's responsibility, and is never done.
About BART not connecting with Amtrak at the same station as Amtrak -- The Starlight used to stop at Richmond, at the same place BART also stops, but the high crime rate in Richmond led Amtrak to eliminate that stop. Yes, a shame, but it was just not safe there.
The SF Bay Area has a very balkanized transportation system, with well over 20 separate agencies. None of them seem to want to give up any of their turf -- and the resulting duplication of services provides many jobs for many people. Unfortunately, it does not seem politically possible to create one big regional transit agency. Yes, we do have the MTC -- the Metropolitan Transportation Agency -- but they seem incapable of getting the various transit agencies to make their systems connect well. (The MTC, to me, seems, in reality, to be the Metropolitan Highway-BART Agency, as that is where it seems to me that 90% of the funds and energy go. Sigh.....)
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
quote:Originally posted by MargaretSPfan: About Clipper cards --- I detest those dratted things! Why? 1. There is NO way to tell how much money you have left on it just by looking at it.
Doesn't the machine have a small display to show you how much is left (not the card)? The few times I used the Oyster card in London, I didn't even notice the display at first.
quote:Originally posted by MargaretSPfan: Geoff Mayo --- You wrote: "I did consider that but bustitution is common for missed connections elsewhere and I doubt locating a bus or two in San Jose would be much of a problem."
You were replying to a comment by George Harris about pax riding the NB Coast Starlight who are trying to connect with a NB CalTrain at San Jose. Amtrak's responsibility to those pax ends at San Jose, so bustituting Amtrak pax from San Jose to points on the SF Peninsula is not Amtrak's responsibility, and is never done.
My comment related to a situation where Amtrak did provide a guaranteed connection. Obviously today it doesn't but if they did, and the CS was late, then they would need to locate a bus or two.
Given the various comments about Caltrain out of San Jose, fair enough it's not a good idea overall. But without this discussion I wouldn't have known!
quote:Originally posted by MargaretSPfan: About BART not connecting with Amtrak at the same station as Amtrak -- The Starlight used to stop at Richmond, at the same place BART also stops, but the high crime rate in Richmond led Amtrak to eliminate that stop. Yes, a shame, but it was just not safe there.
Ok. I was more lamenting the fact that when BART was built, they did not choose to place a station under Oakland JLS for whatever reason(s).
quote:Originally posted by MargaretSPfan: The SF Bay Area has a very balkanized transportation system, with well over 20 separate agencies. None of them seem to want to give up any of their turf -- and the resulting duplication of services provides many jobs for many people. Unfortunately, it does not seem politically possible to create one big regional transit agency. Yes, we do have the MTC -- the Metropolitan Transportation Agency -- but they seem incapable of getting the various transit agencies to make their systems connect well. (The MTC, to me, seems, in reality, to be the Metropolitan Highway-BART Agency, as that is where it seems to me that 90% of the funds and energy go. Sigh.....)
I did notice one needs a plethora of tickets for just the tip of the SF peninsula. Not entirely tourist friendly!
Tip for other tourists: if you're in SF for a couple of days, a 3-day MUNI pass ($26) is better value than individual tickets ($7) if you want a few cable car tickets and/or the old trolleybuses on the F line from Fisherman's Wharf along the coastline.
Bonus tip (!): The cable car museum is FREE and quite fascinating.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
For what its worth department. We flew into San Jose on our recent trip because of lower fares. A quick (maybe 10 min) free shuttle took us from baggage claim to the Santa Clara Caltrain station where we had pleasant ride right into SF. And then had the taxi ride from hell to our hotel.
Posted by Vincent206 (Member # 15447) on :
For me, the location of the Caltrain station in "sort-of" downtown SF is one of the drawbacks to the Starlight to Caltrain connection in San Jose. I've also made the walk from Jack London Station to the Lake Merritt BART station at 1030pm, which isn't an adventure I would recommend to very many people either.
Whatever happened to the plan to revive the Coast Daylight?
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
It is highly unlikely that the Caltrain connections from the northbound Coast Starlight or to the southbound Coast Starlight will be SRO or anywhere near seating capacity.
Bus connections from San Jose to San Francisco are anything but easy. You have at least two different bus operations on either side of the peninsula. In and out of San Jose is VTA (Valley Transportation Authority). There is some overlap, and that is some but not much between it and SamTrans (the San Mateo county bus system), usually best done at Palo Alto. If you are going anywhere in San Francisco that is not handy to Mission Street between about 10th and First, you must then get on Muni or BART. If you are going up the east side of the bay you must change from VTA to AC Transit at Fremont. (AC Transit is Alameda and Contra Costa County's bus system)
Also, you can find yourself being after the last SamTrans bus of the day as well.
IMHO VTA is the best run of the systems.
Vincent: I have made the walk from Lake Merritt BART to Jack London station in the daytime and that is not so great either. If you have the least bit of "potential victim" ambiance about you, you could probably simply disappear.
Posted by MargaretSPfan (Member # 3632) on :
Geoff Mayo --- Amtrak NEVER did provide, nor does it now provide, any guaranteed connections from their own trains or Thruway buses to ANY local or regional transit system anywhere in the US. Amtrak ONLY provides guaranteed connections between its own trains and TThruway buses -- NOTHING else.
Amtrak's responsibility to its passengers ends when those Amtrak passengers disembark at their Amtrak destination -- no further.
Posted by MargaretSPfan (Member # 3632) on :
Re: Caltrain load factors -- It has been reported in our local press here on the SF Peninsula that Caltrain often runs at 140% of seated capacity. Many CalTrain pax have to stand for all or much of their ride.
I am still trying to find out CalTrain's load factors at various times, but --- 140% is real and happens a lot.
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
I wouldn't recommend any transfers to BART if at all possible. Too many reports of criminal activity with BART.
Regarding Vincent's comment regarding a revival of the Coast Daylight, I haven't notice any articles addressing the subject. Back around 2000 there was some discussion of expanding the Pacific Surfliner to the Bay Area, but I haven't noted any further discussion. Probably such talk was killed by the impending plans for Calif. HSR. It would be great if they could have a Cascade-like train, in lieu of the old Coast Daylight, to run LA to the Bay Area with frequent stops. Then, perhaps, a limited all sleeper Starlight train from LA to Seattle.
Richard
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
quote:Originally posted by MargaretSPfan: Geoff Mayo --- Amtrak NEVER did provide, nor does it now provide, any guaranteed connections from their own trains or Thruway buses to ANY local or regional transit system anywhere in the US. Amtrak ONLY provides guaranteed connections between its own trains and TThruway buses -- NOTHING else.
Amtrak's responsibility to its passengers ends when those Amtrak passengers disembark at their Amtrak destination -- no further.
With respect, you're somewhat missing the point (and wrong) but I'll leave it at that.
Posted by PullmanCo (Member # 1138) on :
Two comments:
First, I absolutely agree with the quality of service on UP, ATSF, C&O, and some others very, very late in the day. The passenger traffic departments did not know how to do bad service.
(That said, don't look at most of SP (but do look at SPs SF-Monterey service) and PC...)
Second, an authorization is not an appropriation. We shall see if Amtrak actually gets the money, year in and year out.
Finally, cherry-picking profitable lines is different from running a single line daily or running many lines daily. The costs of: - Maintenance on the car, both running and shopping... - Crewing the car - Stocking the car - Administering the company overhead
Must be greater than the sum of fares collected and any subsidy furnished in a contract from Amtrak to a service provider.
In addition, for a dining car, the cost of meals has to be greater than all those things.
I would bet the day of the lounge car would be over. As a businessman, it's unneeded metal running. I'd ask Amtrak for one lower coach space per consist for a snack bar operation.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Much of the discussion at this topic has been directed towards the use of urban mass transit, and here in particular, making intermodal transfers.
I think one of the biggest barriers for prospective out of town users is simply "HOW do we use this mass transit system"?
The myriad of route identifiers, colors, numbers, whatever, has always been there, but in this age of smartphones. a rider can always have a map of the route being ridden available more conveniently than having to awkwardly stare at the one generally available in the bus or car.
But the new wrinkle, for the out of town passenger is "how do I pay up to use the system"? I think this is a real barrier, and in view of the many benefits the various farecard arrangements out there offer both the operator and regular passenger, they are not going away anytime soon, if ever.
For the out of town visitor, simply giving the driver or turn style ticket agent funds to buy a ride and make change, such was most convenient, but as noted, that's "Adios".
Simply speaking for myself, the only route of the CTA I use is CUS to/from O'Hare. At CUS/Clinton St, there is an attendant there who will show a passenger how to load the fare card - same of course at O'Hare. But how about elsewhere on the system? How about a bus passenger; for myself I haven't used a CTA bus since "Seniors Ride Free" - and we all know where the instigator of that scheme had ended up (still hold to my corner bet; he'll get sprung as Obama walks out of the White House).
At Atlanta, I had a Good Samaritan who helped me buy their "Breezy Card". Subsequent visits, I've simply waited until a train has left - then I'll figure out how to refill the card.
Miami has attendants at major stations such as the Airport.
In Brooklyn last May, I simply gave my Niece $$$$ to ride, she bought me the card - and showed me "the special not too fast not too slow way" it has to be swiped.
Last August visiting Vienna, it would have been fun to have taken a ride on their street car system, but then "how"?
All told, the average visitor is simply "not going to be bothered". The exceptions are at this and similar discussion forums.
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: I think one of the biggest barriers for prospective out of town users is simply "HOW do we use this mass transit system"?
[...]
All told, the average visitor is simply "not going to be bothered". The exceptions are at this and similar discussion forums.
Agreed. I would like to think I'm reasonably savvy at ticket purchasing and travel but some machines just end up with me staring at them in a "what the... " manner. And this is the same the world over. Two of us were staring at a ticket machine in Cologne (Koln), Germany and ended up walking a mile in the snow because it was just unfathomable. And then there are the ticket machines behind vandal proof glass and in direct sunlight, rendering the reading of such impossible.
However, the world is very slowly gearing up towards micro payments with your phone. Wave a suitable phone at the turnstile entrance, wave it again at the exit, and the correct amount will be deducted.
One thing about Oyster I like, which is probably not unique to that brand, is that it'll charge you a one way fare for each journey in a day until it decides that you would have been better off buying a travelcard instead (unlimited day pass). So, imaginary figures, journey 1 might cost £3, journey 2 another £3, but journey 3 only £1 as the travelcard is £7, and thereafter no charge for the rest of the day.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Mr. Mayo, thanks for sharing your immediate thoughts.
Since on my last visit to the Mother Country during '86, I do not recall London Transport as anything that could be considered "cheap". I'm pleased to learn their Oyster farecard will adjust to give the user it's "best deal".
Just think, in Vienna last August, had I knowledge of the streetcar system, I would have been landed in Downtown. Instead, as I've reported here, I ended up walking some 4 miles to an outskirt on the Danube.
After a Lunch at a most convenient (to where I ended up after my hike) Hilton with it's view of "The Beautiful Blue..", and of course a few glasses of "Grape Juice" to wash it down, I was in little mood other than to get a taxicab back to Hbf. While likely I got a tour of the city with the meter ticking, I was greatful and considered the €20 run up "worth it".
Posted by MargaretSPfan (Member # 3632) on :
I have a question: Does anyone here know of any place(s) in the US where Amtrak provides buses (or other transportation) to take Amtrak pax -- who have missed the last transit connection of the day because Amtrak is late -- to their final destination if that destination is not a regular Amtrak train or Thruway stop?
This is not "bustitution" that I am asking about, wherein Amtrak typically uses buses as a bridge between Point A and Point B when an Amtrak train cannot get pax between Point A and Point B, which are both on the same Amtrak route, or to get pax to a connecting Amtrak train those Amtrak pax missed because the the Amtrak train they were on was late
I'd really like to know this.
TIA!
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
Only fair that I do the legwork since I doubted you!
Example 1: Connections from Indianapolis, listed as Thruway buses 8890/8892/8893/8895, operated by Burlington Trailways. If we go to the latter's website we can book a seat on their public bus service numbers 1491/1488/1401/1487 which map to identical timings. I tried a test booking on Amtrak.com and can confirm the Thruway bus is on the same ticket.
Example 2: Denver to Raton, Thruway numbers 8603 and 8204; Greyhound numbers 7305 and 9251.
In both these cases I very much doubt the scheduled bus service waits for the train as it has non-train passengers onboard. In cases of Amtrak being late I would expect Amtrak to arrange alternative onward travel* or accommodation.
* - which might simply mean a later bus if there is one in the not too distant future, or charter another bus or taxi depending on passenger numbers.
I am a little perturbed by your "if that destination is not a regular Amtrak train or Thruway stop?" comment since one cannot book anything on Amtrak.com that is NOT a regular Amtrak train or Thruway stop!
Posted by MargaretSPfan (Member # 3632) on :
Geoff Mayo -- I was just wondering why you said -- in the context of my saying that it would be easy for pax on #14 ticketed to San Jose and going via Caltrain to points on the SF Peninsula to miss that last NB Caltrain if #14 is late -- that it should not be too hard for Amtrak to locate a bus or two. Should those buses be expected to take those pax up the SF Peninsula? Why? Doesn't Amtrak's "contract of carriage" end at the last Amtrak stop the pax is ticketed to?
I apologize for not making it clear what I was asking when I wrote my previous comments.
(Both examples you gave were of private bus companies operating buses that are apparently run as Amtrak Thruway buses -- not public transit agencies, which do not ever run Thruway buses. And one can go to Amtrak dot com and purchase tickets on both of these private companies’ buses. This is not true of Caltrain or -- AFAIK -- of any other public transit agency in the US that has vehicles that stop at or near Amtrak stops, which many Amtrak pax may need to use. AFAIK, Amtrak never provides substitute transportation or accommodations if any of its pax miss the last departure of the day of such public transit vehicles because Amtrak is late. Nor can it -- not under its present operating rules, and certainly not with the ridiculously tiny annual subsidy it gets.)
Is it true that, if you have purchased any tickets on Amtrak dot com or by calling Amtrak's 800 number, then Amtrak has thereby entered into a "contract of carriage" to get you to the last destination on that ticket? And that that "Contract of Carriage" obligates Amtrak to put you up in a hotel if necessary as part of dealing with missed Amtrak connections?
I wonder what exactly Amtrak's "contract of carriage" requires Amtrak to do for pax who miss connections to public transit vehicles because their Amtrak train is late. Anything? I would appreciate any info anyone can give me on this subject. TIA!
Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :
I think what Margaret is asking is something like this: You take the CS to San Jose in hopes of transferring to a Caltrain commuter train to say, San Mateo or somewhere. If the CS is so late that you miss the last Caltrain train to San Mateo of the day, will AMTRAK arrange for a bus (or taxi, etc.) to get you to San Mateo? Is this what you are wondering, Margaret?
I do not know of any such arrangement at any AMTRAK station, but others on this board may have more insight.
Many years ago, on one of my trips, I had planned to take the Capitol Ltd to Hammond-Whiting and then transfer to the Blue Water, back when it ran CHI-TWO. The CL was quite late, so I got off at South Bend, and AMTRAK did arrange (and pay) for a taxicab for me to get from the South Bend station to Niles, MI, station (~10 miles), where I caught the Blue Water.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
I have to agree with both Rich and Margaret on this one.
I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, but through my career, both railroad and private practice, I worked within a legal environment.
The transportation contract is complete the moment the passenger alights at the final ticketed destination and, if any, the checked baggage is returned.
Unless specifically provided, there is no contractual requirement to arrive "on time". That a connection to another carrier is missed, is no different than if you missed the puck drop at a Sharks game account a late Starlight.
While I'm certain, Amtrak would "do what they can" to help a stranded passenger, that help does not include "reaching into the till'.
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
My point was and always has been that if Amtrak sold me a ticket from Los Angeles to the Caltrain station in San Francisco via Caltrain then it is Amtrak's duty to get me to that destination, regardless of whether the last Caltrain has been missed. If Caltrain were having a bad day but Amtrak delivered its passengers on time to San Jose then I would suggest that Caltrain would be the ones to fix the problem, with Amtrak leaning on their case - but my contract is still with Amtrak, not its subcontract with Caltrain.
If your Amtrak ticket has a final destination of San Jose and you hold separate tickets for Caltrain then absolutely, you're on your own once you alight at San Jose. That has never been in doubt. Again, I am talking about the possibility of a single ticket to the destination on Caltrain's network.
The fact it's not a good idea makes this discussion somewhat moot.
My only experience of missing a connection (Amtrak to Amtrak, not the situation above) was having some officials meet the train a couple of hours out from Chicago and go through the sleepers and then coach cars to arrange onward transport. This was Greyhound for those desperate to get to their destination quickly (in relative terms!), or stay overnight in Chicago at Amtrak's expense (plus taxi to/from hotel, dinner, and breakfast vouchers) and travel on the next train space permitting. True, they don't have to provide a hotel or meals but there is such a thing as good customer service, or wanting your passengers to think good of you rather than bad.
Posted by MargaretSPfan (Member # 3632) on :
palmland an dRRRICH and Gil Norman and Geoff Mayo ---
Thanks for the kind replies!
My railfan son -- who is quite smart -- said he just thought of something: Amtrak has NO way to know where any pax is going after their last ticketed Amtrak stop! This is because Amtrak NEVER books ANY trips on ANY NON-Amtrak carriers, and thus there is NO info in its system (computers) about any pax’s actual final destination.
Also -- Amtrak is NOT a travel agency, and absent being such, NEVER provides ANY transportation to any other locations other than its own station stops. And with poor Amtrak’‘s permanently ridiculously and incredibly tiny annual subsidy, it does not have the infrastructure (staff and equipment) to provide any such onward transportation. (I was thinking last night that it would, indeed, be a wonderful thing if Amtrak could get a proper amount of funds and great management and would reinvent itself as a travel agency, as well as a transportation provider. But that is a subject for another discussion.)
GEOFF MAYO -- Thank you very much for clarifying what you were talking about. AFAIK, Amtrak NEVER sells tickets for ANY public transit agency. Not its job -- even if doing so would make things a LOT easier for its pax. But just think of all the huge logistical problems Amtrak would face if it tried to do that. But such is quite do-able -- IF Amtrak had the money and plenty of good equipment and people -- but dojng that is NOT its responsibility at all atn the present time.
It was as I thought -- two “non-intersecting conversations”, as a wise man called this. It is great that the misunderstanding is cleared up. THANK you, Geoff, VERY much for bothering to do that! That is VERY kind of you!
RRRICH --- Yes, that is what I was asking. However, I am positive that Amtrak has NO contractual responsibility for ANY of its pax after they get off an Amtak train or a Thruway bus.
That is why I was quite puzzled when Geoff Mayo said that Amtrak could easily find a bus or two for #14 pax who miss the last Caltrain of the day.
GIL NORMAN --- Thank you very much for your input about exactly what Amtrak is probably legally required to do for its pax. And for agreeing with me. Hmmm..... So Amtrak is not legally required to get anyone to any station stop on time. I didn’t know that! Makes a lot of sense, as there are many things that can happen that would make a train late, over which Amtrak has no control, or, at the least, would find it very difficult to prevent.
PALMLAND --- Thank you VERY much for the great photo of that 1965 B&O/C&O timetable. Oh, how I wish the RRs were the size they were in 1950, with ALL the passenger trains they ran then -- with PRIDE! It is wonderful neither the B&O or ther C&O let their service det poor back then. It is wonderful to learn that the Santa Fe was not the only RR that ran its passenger train with pride right up to Amtrak Day in 1971!
TO ALL -- Thanks, all, for the info. This is a very interesting discussion!
I love this forum -- the topics are often fascinating, and everyone is so kind.
Posted by David (Member # 3) on :
quote:Originally posted by Geoff Mayo:
...
One thing about Oyster I like, which is probably not unique to that brand, is that it'll charge you a one way fare for each journey in a day until it decides that you would have been better off buying a travelcard instead (unlimited day pass). So, imaginary figures, journey 1 might cost £3, journey 2 another £3, but journey 3 only £1 as the travelcard is £7, and thereafter no charge for the rest of the day. [/QB]
When GO Transit (trains and buses in the Toronto area)introduced their Presto card I noticed it was similar to London's Oyster card with which I was familiar. I soon noticed that, unlike the Oyster card, Presto didn't acknowledge the day pass value so if we took more than one round trip or two one-way trips we would be paying for each one. A day pass costs the equivalent of one round trip at full "cash fare" so when taking more than one trip I buy the day pass. Fortunately there are ticket agents at all stations (although late at night some close) and ticket machines for the purchase of day passes or one-way tickets. There is a small discount from the "cash fare" for using Presto.
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
Interesting to hear that David. I was chatting to some friends back in the UK about this and the Oyster thing is more complicated than I thought. Since it covers Underground services (aka tube, but sub-surface is also Underground), heavy rail within London, Docklands Light Railway, London Buses, and Croydon Tramlink, a zone system, and also covers peak and off-peak periods, it gets very complicated very quickly! Each of LU, DLR, Tramlink, London Buses, and heavy rail operators want their appropriate cut of the fare, of course.
Zone 1 is central London and more expensive, but it's quite possible to travel from Zone 6 on one side of London to Zone 6 on the other without using Zone 1, which it can only know it you "tap in" at certain "nodes" enroute. All, or virtually all, stations have ticket barriers where Oyster tapping in will open the barrier; similarly there are exit barriers where the same happens (no exit until tapped out or ticket given up). But there are also, I'm told, additional tapping-in points on some stations which the savvy traveller can use to tell the system which way he went (avoiding central London so a cheaper fare). But for the casual traveller you don't need to know all this detail: just tap in, travel, and tap out.
I guess somehow it works, and in return, whoever runs Oyster gets some nice data on who travels where. Cards don't have to be registered if you prefer to be private, but then if you lose your card you don't have the ability to block it and get a new one issued. Swings and roundabouts.
The one drawback? Late at night you can't board a bus if you haven't already paid (ie Oyster, season ticket, or some other prepaid method) as the buses do not accept cash or credit/debit card, and any nearby stores that might sell them could be closed. Same applies at some smaller rail stations too.
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