Some think it could pave the way for the Vermonter to extend to Montreal.
Richard
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
Part of the thing needful for restoration is to achieve increased speed between St. Albans and Montreal so that the train can no longer be outrun by a thundering glacier in that segment.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
I hope this happens, Richard. I still don't understand why it's relatively painless for border formalities on the Cascade to/from Vancouver but much more difficult to Montreal. Northbound the Canadian customs was done very efficiently (if not cheerfully) in the Vancouver station after arrival. Southbound was even easier. The U.S. customs guys passed through the bistro car, while we were moving, and glanced at our passport open on the table. Their only comment was 'how's diner?' and 'welcome home'. But then our 'profile' isn't particularly threatening.
While we have not taken the Adirondack across the border, I did observe the customs agents 'swarming' the train during a lengthy stop southbound at Rousses Point for that purpose.
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
Mr. Palmland, I agree that the Cascade border crossing to Vancouver, and the reverse, is a snap. I will be doing it in late May.
Maybe some can chime in on how easy or problematic it is to cross into Canada on the Adirondack. I also wonder, if the bill passes Congress, if a train crossing from Port Huron to Sarnia might eventually be possible. I would guess, however, that it could impose farily strict security precautions.
If the new bill passes, how will "pre-clearance" exactly work?. On 1/22/18, some states will require "real-ID", at the airport, even for domestic flights and not a drivers license. I wonder if stricter regulations are on the way for Amtrak interstate travel?
George: A few days ago I watched a 1954 movie called "The Raid". Based on a true event, it was about some Confederate prisoners, during he Civil War, who came down from Canada to raid, rob banks, and set fire to Saint Albans, VT. Not a very historical movie but of some entertainment value.
Richard
Posted by TBlack (Member # 181) on :
"Some think it could pave the way for the Vermonter to extend to Montreal."
Richard, my understanding is that the bridge over the northern part of Lake Champlain burned down several years ago. I wouldn't count on a quick reprieve of the service. Tom
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Mr. Black, could there possibly be confusion with this bridge? It would appear the East Alburg trestle bridge was "alive and well" as of 2013.
Even though the Canadian National divested its US subsidiary, Central Vermont, to short line operator , Genesee & Wyoming, it still represents a favorable routing for CN traffic consigned to New England.
Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :
TBlack -- I recollect that the East Alburg crossing was the one used by the Montrealer the last time it was in service WAS-MTR -- the second of Gil's pictures.
I always wondered why the service between St. Albans and Montreal was abandoned in the first place -- wasn't there some sort of customs problem a few years ago?
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Mr. Harris, Mr. Bowen's historical timetables shows the 1960 Montrealer was scheduled 2h 04m St Albans to Montreal.
Mr. Google's "leadfeet" report driving it in 1h 23m.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
quote:Originally posted by yukon11: George: A few days ago I watched a 1954 movie called "The Raid". Based on a true event, it was about some Confederate prisoners, during he Civil War, who came down from Canada to raid, rob banks, and set fire to Saint Albans, VT. Not a very historical movie but of some entertainment value.
Richard
There is a book that gives a factual discussion of this raid and what led up to it. One was to let some part of the north experience a taste of the burn and pillage that was the practice of virtually all Yankee troop activities in the Confederacy. The other was to siphon off some of the Yankee military efforts toward protection of their home territory. The decision to do so was done at a relatively low level in the Confederate military and was generally disapproved of at a higher level on the grounds that we were not to turn into savages just because Union troops were acting that way.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Mr. Harris, was Andersonville an example of Confederate chivalry?
Posted by dpudave (Member # 162885) on :
Not for the first time I find Mr Norman's comment to be, forgive me, "spot on." d
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
I agree with both Mr. Norman and George. Andersonville was not exactly an example of southern hospitality, but the Union prison camp in Elmira, NY, was not exactly an example of northern hospitality.
Getting back to Canadian border crossing and preclearance, it seems that the new bill will soon become law:
A quote: "The pilot projects will take place at Montreal's train station and on western Canada's Rocky Mountaineer train line".
I will be travelling to Vancouver to board the Mouintaineer for Lake Louise in late May. I will have my passport with me, but how will preclearance work and how will it expedite customs and boarding the train?
Richard
Posted by ghCBNS (Member # 3093) on :
quote:Originally posted by yukon11: I will be travelling to Vancouver to board the Mouintaineer for Lake Louise in late May. I will have my passport with me, but how will preclearance work and how will it expedite customs and boarding the train?
Richard
If you are boarding the Rocky Mountaineer in Vancouver for Lake Louise.....pre-clearance will mean nothing to you. This is purely a domestic Canadian train
But Rocky Mountaineer does operate connecting trains between Vancouver and Seattle and the passengers on these trains will be 'pre-cleared' in Vancouver to enter the US the same as Amtrak Cascades passengers.
Posted by ghCBNS (Member # 3093) on :
It amazes me it has taken this long to implement US Pre-clearance at railway stations when you take into consideration it has been available at major Canadian Airports for years….. starting at Malton Airport in Toronto way back in 1952 for American Airlines flights to New York.
Even the Pre-Clearance at Pacific Central Station in Vancouver is not ‘full’ pre-clearance as customs is still done in Blaine WA…….it is a US immigration inspection only in Vancouver for passengers bound for the US. This will now change to a full pre-clearance similar to that done at an airport as will the new facility in Gare Centrale, Montreal for the Adirondack.
And the only two stations where pre-clearance will work are Vancouver and Montreal. Toronto will not work because the Maple Leaf makes several stops in Canada before reaching the border. The new Amtrak Station in Niagara Falls NY might work as a pre-clearance facility with both US and Canadian Officers working together in the same building to clear the Maple Leaf
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
quote:Originally posted by RRRICH:
I always wondered why the service between St. Albans and Montreal was abandoned in the first place -- wasn't there some sort of customs problem a few years ago?
Rich, the killer was the terms, i.e. cost, that non-NRPC member CN imposed upon Amtrak for use of their E Alburg-Montreal line and access to Central Station.
They knew "they had Amtrak by the b---" in view of that there was enacted legislation requiring Amtrak to start international service to both Canada and Mexico. They also knew they were beyond the jurisdiction of the National Arbitration Panel, the agency then that handled disputes between railroads and Amtrak (SurfBoard holds such today).
Even though the train did well, and had a reputation as a "party train", these costs were too much to ignore. So when the D&H and their Canadian Sub, Napierville Junction, came together with Amtrak and New York State to operate The Adirondack, Amtrak had their "out".
Posted by ghCBNS (Member # 3093) on :
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: Even though the train did well, and had a reputation as a "party train", these costs were too much to ignore. So when the D&H and their Canadian Sub, Napierville Junction, came together with Amtrak and New York State to operate The Adirondack, Amtrak had their "out".
Except........Amtrak jumped further under the covers with CN when they stopped using the D&H, Napierville Jct. CP route into Windsor Station and moved the Adirondack to CN's Central Station in 1985. This added about 5 miles of additional CN track north of Rouses Point to Cantic where it joined the same route the Montrealer followed into Gare Centrale.
The same route the Adirondack still uses today.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Mr. GH from NS, obviously CN with diplomatic persuasion eased away from the hard line they took with The Montrealer.
I guess wiser heads came to realize there were easier ways to make a Loon than imposing unreasonable access charges.
I had left the industry by 1985; sources do "get cold" after a while.
Posted by sojourner (Member # 3134) on :
As I recall from when I used to post regularly here, this topic has gone off on a tangent that makes it difficult for a person seeking info to get it. But I thought, before the tangent, someone did request info on recent border crossings?
At any rate, we crossed in late September on the Adirondack. Our northbound train was very late, but not because of the border crossing--it was actually over 2 hours late getting out of NYC because of equipment problems! I think customs took over an hour, though. We did not get in to Montreal until around 10:30 PM (over 3 hours late) and wound up going straight to our hotel, no dinner! (Luckily we had brought lunch & some goodies with us.) We wanted to crash, cuz we had to get up very early to catch our VIARAIL to Quebec City next day. (Quebec was fantastic, btw. We really really like going there.)
After returning to Montreal for a night, we caught the southbound Adirondack (with domecar). This trip had no trouble-in fact it was great! Border crossing was just about an hour, which is built into the schedule. We were home on time.
I'm not sure you can extrapolate from our experiences what yours will be--the length of the crossing mainly depends on how many people are on the train and especially on how many of them are 3rd party nationals (neither US nor Canada) who are making their intial entrance into the country the train is entering. But the trains do tend to be busier on weekends, especially Fridays and Sundays, and that makes the customs delays more likely then, I suppose.
A few tips on travel to Montreal: Best to bring lunch both ways (unless you love the Amtrak offerings). Usually, you arrive in time for latish dinner in Montreal, but that depends. . . as you see from our experience. so you want to have had a decent lunch (and maybe bring some cookies etc.). For the return trip, I strongly recommend sandwiches from Premiere Moisson in Gare Centrale--pate is excellent--not to mention their croissants & other pastry-- delicious. Note they are closed Sunday. Amtrak does not restock the food in Montreal--they just bring what they bring and keep it refrigerated overnight, far as I know--so they are usually out of healthier things like salads almost from the get-go.
Return trip also tends to have smelly toilets, alas. They are not properly cleaned in Montreal, far as I can tell. They are refreshed in Albany--but by then you have made most of the trip!
BTW, this was a very good time to go to Canada, exchange-rate-wise.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
Thanks for the report, Sojourner. Good to have some fresh info on the trip and border issues. Personally, I'd prefer an overnight trip to Montreal to arrive there at the start of the day. Perhaps if the Vermonter is ever extended it will revert to the Montrealer's original schedule of afternoon from Washington and morning into Montreal.
I concur that Quebec is a fascinating city. Hope you got to splurge at the Chateau Frontenac. I was about five on my first trip to the city. Somewhere there is a picture of me holding the tail of a pig in a fancy restaurant. The restaurant was named, in French, 'The tail of the pig'. Strange what we remember as we get older.
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
[QUOTE]Originally posted by palmland: [QB] Thanks for the report, Sojourner. Good to have some fresh info on the trip and border issues. Personally, I'd prefer an overnight trip to Montreal to arrive there at the start of the day. Perhaps if the Vermonter is ever extended it will revert to the Montrealer's original schedule of afternoon from Washington and morning into Montreal.
********************** Yes, I agree an overnight trip to Montreal would be the most praticial. I checked out the 1960 schedule for the Montrealer, it left NYC @ 8:35 PM and arrived at Montreal @ 7:55 AM the next morning. Southbound it left Montreal @ 7:40 PM and arrived in NYC @ 8 AM the next morning. The overnight is probably very practical, but it seems you would miss a lot of great scenery along the way as the train would pass through a good portion of such scenery during dark hours.
If the Vermonter is extended to Montreal, will it still be called the "Vermonter" or will it be called the "Montrealer"?
I tried to check out possible VIA connections if the train would arrive in Montreal in the morning. The VIA website has always been a little cumbersome to navigate, but the newest website is really difficult, at least for me:
I clicked the "Explore Our Destinations" tab, but it then gets confusing. Is the Montreal to Toronto train a daily train? What are the stops between Montreal and Toronto? Very confusing.
Richard
Posted by DonNadeau (Member # 61606) on :
"They knew "they had Amtrak by the b---" in view of that there was enacted legislation requiring Amtrak to start international service to both Canada and Mexico." - Mr. Norman
I had forgotten about Mexico.
Did Amtrak ever offer service actually into Mexico? I know that it served Laredo on the border (as well of course as Del Rio and El Paso).
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Only the "talk-talk".
There was some degree of cooperation between Amtrak and NdeM. There was an English speaking NdeM "Passenger Agent" to meet the Inter-American at Laredo and assist in getting a taxicab X-border (no formalities there). Once at the NL "estacion", you'd get a Tourist Card and board the "Aguila Azteca", which would be "reasonably" held if #21 was tardy (hey, it'll drop a couple of hours anyway on its way to Mexico - or at least it did when I rode it).
As I recall, the STL-Mexico, DF Pullman line died during 1963. There were once lines to both NY and Chi through STL.
Posted by Cottage Life (Member # 97004) on :
To find it yourself, use the "Schedules" tab on the Via website.
There are six direct services each way between Montreal and Toronto, plus one through train via Ottawa.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
As of 1967, GBN, there was a through Pullman at least from San Antonio, where I boarded it, to Mexico City. Those were the glory years for Mexican passenger service. Seemed like half the US fleet had migrated there.
Posted by DonNadeau (Member # 61606) on :
Thank you so much for the Mexico information.
Wish that the Adirondack had the same ease of immigration as do the two Cascade trains that reach Vancouver. You clear Canadian immigration in Vancouver and you clear U.S. immigration in Vancouver. Result: no immigration delays.
Why not the Adirondack? It doesn't have any scheduled stops between the border and its Canadian terminus Montreal either.
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
Thanks for the link, Cottage Life. I did find the schedule info on the VISA website, way down at the bottom under "bookings".
Richard
Posted by ghCBNS (Member # 3093) on :
quote:Originally posted by yukon11: Thanks for the link, Cottage Life. I did find the schedule info on the VISA website, way down at the bottom under "bookings".
Richard
No need to go all the way to the bottom.
Schedules are under the “Plan Your Trip” tab at the top left of the home page. (hard to think of a better place to put schedules!!) Then click the .PDF for the full timetable or the individual route pages. Here's the Montreal-Kingston-Toronto pages:
Splurge and try VIA Business Class. Totally different than Amtrak Business Class and closer to the Amtrak Acela First Class product with hot meals, wine, liquor, wi-fi and lounge access.
Posted by ghCBNS (Member # 3093) on :
quote:Originally posted by DonNadeau: Wish that the Adirondack had the same ease of immigration as do the two Cascade trains that reach Vancouver. You clear Canadian immigration in Vancouver and you clear U.S. immigration in Vancouver. Result: no immigration delays.
Why not the Adirondack? It doesn't have any scheduled stops between the border and its Canadian terminus Montreal either.
That's what this topic is about. See the first post at the top and the included link there.
Canadian CBSA and US CBP is now going to be done in Montreal Central Station the same as in Vancouver. Currently only US Immigration Pre-Clearance is done in Vancouver with US Customs done in Blaine. Under this new legislation, US Customs will also be done in Vancouver before departure.
And yes there is currently a stop on the Adirondack between the Border and Montreal. It is St-Lambert and it will have to be eliminated to allow the new customs procedures to work. St. Lambert had been a convenient stop to transfer between VIA's Ocean and the Adirondack
Posted by DonNadeau (Member # 61606) on :
Actually, the two Cascade roundtrips have not had to stop at the border for some time in either direction.
ALL American AND Canadian immigration and customs formalities are done at Pacific Central Station in Vancouver. Of course, both Canadian and U.S. agents can stop these trains at the border if they wish to check passengers, but that's not the routine.
Only Amtrak Thruway services stop at the border and that is because they cannot travel nonstop and thus secure between Vancouver and the border.
I am sorry that I did not carefully read the portion of the article that mentioned what's to happen at Montreal.
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
How about the border crossing on the Maple Leaf? Does that go smoothly?
There has been a suggestion to have Blaine, Washington become a regular passenger train stop:
I was impressed by student study of a Blaine stop. Having the station on the U.S. side, even though most projected customers live on the Canadian side, keeps pre clearance in Vancouver for those boarding there.
Surrey, the Vancouver suburb directly across from Blaine, has some 500,000 residents alone.
Amtrak should have more suburban stops, where passengers can more easily find inexpensive parking, avoid downtown traffic, etc.
For example, the Sunset doesn't stop even once as it crosses the San Gabriel Valley east of LA Union Station. Some 1.75 million residents live there.
Although haven't followed the Maple Leaf situation, I can't imagine any at border immigration experience consistently going smoothly in a post-911 world. That's why I love pre-clearance, which by the way the U.S. does even at some airports outside of North America, such as Dublin, Ireland.
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
I think one problem with Blaine as a station stop would be parking. I thought I read that if the station were located a little south of downtown Blaine, the parking situation could be ok.
I didn't know Surrey has 500,000 residents. With the Canadian dollar (Loonie) worth about 74 cents compared to the US dollar, I would think many Washingtonians would appreciate a quick trip north to take advantage. Ironically, more spending is done by Canadians in the US compared to American spending in Canada.
I always wanted to roam around downtown Blaine. I'm guessing it might have a few, really good seafood restaurants.
Richard
Posted by DonNadeau (Member # 61606) on :
"Ironically, more spending is done by Canadians in the US compared to American spending in Canada."
That is strange, isn't it, considering the great value that Canada has become to Americans. Hotel and many other prices in Canada have not gone up in correlation with the decline in the Canadian dollar, in part I believe because Canada does not depend on the U.S. for it's energy needs.
The winter warmth of places like southern AZ and souther FL that attracts Canadians may play a big part in the spending deficit, as perhaps that Canada has nothing that really compares to the Disney and Universal assessment parks. that motivate so many Canadian families to travel south.
Posted by Vincent206 (Member # 15447) on :
quote:I always wanted to roam around downtown Blaine. I'm guessing it might have a few, really good seafood restaurants.
As a former Whatcom County resident I could suggest plenty of places that would be more exciting than Blaine. Chuckanut Drive would be the place to go for oysters, Bellingham has several good seafood restaurants or you might enjoy a trip to Lummi Island. Any or all would beat a day in Blaine.
What is really needed to improve the Seattle to Vancouver BC journey are a few infrastructure investments north of the border to improve running time on the Canadian side. The 62 mile trip from Bellingham to Vancouver is scheduled for almost 2 hours (compared to the 95 mile trip from Seattle to Bellingham which takes 2:10).
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
quote:Originally posted by Vincent206: As a former Whatcom County resident...
Vincent, I had to look at a map to see that Washington actually has a county by that name. I thought maybe it was a '90's vintage start up you may have been with.
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