I have always been of the opinion that the best train rides include an overnight.
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
I agree, TwinStar. Overnight in a sleeper is a great experience. Your article is interesting and I would really like to take some of the overnight trains listed, especially the "Nightjet Italy".
Looking out a the night sky, in your sleeper, is something I always enjoy (assuming the windows aren't so dirty you can't see the night sky). Morning sunlight at Klamath Falls and the lower Cascades, on the northbound CS, is great. Entering Glacier Park, eastbound on the Builder, is something really memorable.
I thought, upon retirement, of taking Amtrak around the periphery of the US. However, a sleeper would cost mucho $$$$$$$$$$$ for such a trip. I've always wondered if Amtrak would consider adding sleeper accommodations to its Rail Pass plan. I know it would be costly, but perhaps reasonable if part of a rail pass package.
Richard
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
I trust it is noted that the article addresses European routes in regions where there is no HSR services. Notice how the article gives scant coverage of services within France and Germany - both of which have HSR systems. By contrast, Austria only has "HigherSpeed" - many incremental improvements, but still the same system from "Murder on the Orent Express" days.
The article carefully notes that European Sleepers are a dying breed and that those outlined are specialty services. There is certainly the inference of "ride 'em while you still can."
As I've learned, the Austrian OBB acquired the German equipment "on the cheap" and put "lipstick on the pig". Their routes, branded NightJet, of course traverse Austria, but somehow, should I go back there again in this life, I somehow doubt if I'd be down at Salzburg Hbf to watch, let alone ride, a NightJet train leaving at 1A.
Finally, be sure to investigate the links at each article. Many are in English, but unfortunately that provided for the Austrian NightJet is broken. Here is a link that includes a download of a NightJet brochure. It's in German, but you need not "Specht Deutsch" in order to read timetables or check fares.
Interesting link, TSR. Europe is very fortunate to have such a healthy passenger rail network. But then it's more like a string of NEC high density lines very unlike our wide open spaces. Perhaps with the new administration, for both the U.S. and Amtrak, robust development can begin on our emerging corridors.
I'm expecting next week my European Rail Timetable (a successor to the famous Cooks TT) for planning our trip this summer. Almost as good as the Official Guide of the Railways pre-amtrak.
Night trains definitely have a romantic allure. We've ridden several on earlier trips but would still like to do the Night Riviera to Penzance. But on this trip, a daytime trip in the Alps is more appealing.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Here's another article I located, but even if only written three years ago, much has negatively changed.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
While non commercial, here is quite the advertisment for OBB NightJet:
Incidentally, the One-way fare, Single Compartment, Salzburg to Rome during August is €229. Should you wish to book, the NightJet site redirects you to the site of the road on which your journey will originate.
I'm "on the fence" if I'm going over this year. I bought a relatively cheap airline ticket, but I just might "cut losses" and use it up on other United flights over the next year. At the moment, I'm just not all that enthused to do so; I think that's called aging.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
Good video, GBN. Thanks. We took the reverse route on the ‘grand tour’ with our boys in ‘89. It was a memorable ride, especially waking up as we wound through the mountains.
I know railfans don’t want to hear this, but it makes a lot of sense for an overnight trip and I think exactly what Anderson has in mind for the upcoming ‘experiment’. Give us a hot dinner option and with the sleeper lounge/ table car for eating I think it could be an improvement over the faux full service meals often with indifferent service and assigned diner seating.
Now for a 2 night 48 hour Transcon trip, something more is required.
Posted by mgt (Member # 5479) on :
I think it is this year that the Caledonian Sleeper is being fully re-equipped. I do not know if that also applies to the service from London to Penzance. Both are daily services in both directions, apart from Saturday nights.
Posted by David (Member # 3) on :
The Scottish sleepers look very comfortable, with a choice of the usual cabins without en suite facilities, cabins with facilities and "suites" with a double bed. Rooms can be locked when the passengers go to the club car. The cabins with facilities look very much like those on the Renaissance sleepers used by VIA Rail on the Montreal-Halifax "Ocean."
Interesting, David. Glad to see this service get new equipment. It looks perfect for a relatively short (by U.S, standards) overnight trip. I suspect the cafe/lounge car is something that might work for Anderson’s plans and is certainly nicer than an AmCafe.
However, the Amtrak roomettes seem roomier and their bigger windows is certainly preferable - especially on a longer trip. Let’s hope the Cornwall service gets a simiar makeover.
This route is certainly something that showcases the joys of train travel. I remember going to sleep in bustling London and waking up with sheep grazing on the rolling hills in an environment far different than London. You don’t get that sense of place on a one hour plane flight.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
I remember during '71, or back when I was into "train riding marathons", it was quite the experience to open the shades, somewhere near St. Austell, Cornwall on the "Night Riviera" - and be looking at Palm Trees.
Palm Trees on the island of Great Britain? Never knew that before.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
The New York Times will print this article in the Travel section this coming Sunday.
Fair Use:
From the Orient Express to the Trans-Europe Express, few methods of travel have offered as much romance as a European night train. Unfortunately, these overnight train routes have long been in decline, particularly in Western Europe, due mainly to the growing popularity of budget airlines. In 2016, the German rail operator Deutsche Bahn ended all of its night routes, selling off the entirety of its sleeping wagons, while in France, the last Paris-to-Nice sleeping train service was discontinued in 2017.
As a result, fans of overnight rail travel have been fighting to save the service. The cross-border Back on Track group has been lobbying both operators and governments while also organizing protests inside train stations. Things have started to look up, with new routes, new carriages and renewed interest from travelers. Austria’s ÖBB purchased Deutsche Bahn’s unwanted sleeping wagons, and has since reported increasing numbers of overnight passengers, even ordering new sleeping cars set to enter service by 2023. In March, the Swedish government announced plans to expand overnight trains to many European destinations. In May, the Swiss rail operator SBB said that it was considering renewed night routes, citing market demands.
In France, activists saved a beloved sleeping-car route between Paris, Perpignan and the Spanish border town of Portbou, according to Nicolas Forien, a member of both Back on Track and the French group Oui au Train de Nuit (“Yes to the Night Train”).
I'm "going over again" this August (sixth year of what was to be a "once in a lifetime"), but I'll pass on trying one out, such as Salzburg-Rome. (Lv SZB 1002P, ar ROM 930A, €159). I'm too old for "rail marathons" such as I did during the '70's as a "thirtysomething".
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Sorry to report, but the web article got reduced to a sidebar in the print edition.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
This was an encouraging article. Unfortunately the links for the details on expanded service in Sweden and Switzerland were not in english. This is a great way to go from A to B without paying for an expensive hotel and airfare. And for the railfans among us, it’s just fun. The New Caledonian Express is definitely on our bucket list. Last time I didn’t particularly enjoy as I was dealing with an unhappy digestive system.
But the trade off is giving up daylight viewing of the country. But, best of both worlds: one way overnight, daytime return.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Mr. Palmland, I wouldn't have the Caledonian Sleeper on the bucket list "too soon":
The new Mk5 Caledonian Sleeper coaches have continued to be dogged by problems.
It is has emerged that it was wheel flats caused by unexplained brake applications which brought the northbound Lowland sleeper to a halt at Stafford early yesterday. Last night’s service was cancelled as a result, and CAF engineers are now investigating what went wrong.
Passengers were woken to be told that the rest of their journey to Glasgow would be on board rail replacement coaches. Passengers for Edinburgh were advised that ScotRail would accept Sleeper tickets on trains from Glasgow to Edinburgh. On board staff announced that ‘our engineering team is working hard to understand what caused the train to apply its emergency braking system..
Appears CAF's reputation is about the same on either side of "the Ditch".
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
On a recent morning, as Venice awakened to crisp November sunshine, a group of travelers appeared on the steps of Santa Lucia Station. They stood in awe of the Grand Canal just opposite, rummaging for sunglasses in their bags.
There were couples, like Natalia Goia, 28, and Maximiliano Amestoy, 33, from Uruguay. On a tour of Europe, they had left rainy Vienna the night before, slept in a compartment with reclining seats, and were up and ready to explore Venice before most visitors had even finished their breakfasts.
“We had lots of sleep,” Ms. Goia said, sitting on the steps of the modernist railway terminal, visibly pleased with the 11-hour journey that had led them through the Austrian Alps. They swapped a night in a pricey hotel in Venice for the cheapest fare on the train, she said.
The Orient Express or Blue Train, it is not. All told, The Times is affirming my previously expressed thought that it appears they are pitching the product to the Econosnooze crowd.
Now what I know will "shock" some around here is that I actually have given some thought to an NJ joyride, if I "go over again" (ORD-MUC is a "very attractive" $2344 at the moment). The joyride would originate in Munich (after having gone to the Airport to store my bag and live out of a Tote Bag for the joyride) spend most of the day in Munich (haven't been in the Stadtmitte since '60), then board Nightjet to Rome (havent been there also since '60). Spend day in Rome and then "reverse route" (wouldn't do it on Amtrak, but 4hr arrival to flight home should be safe). For exclusive occupancy of a room, the RT is €379 - definitely doable since the hotel in Salzburg at which I've stayed is €320/ni.
But the flipside, I'm not much on the roughing it nowadays.
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
Apparently, European overnight trains are starting to catch on, if you believe the following:
The country that’s home to Greta Thunberg and that coined the term flygskam (flight shame) has plans to introduce new sleeper routes this year.
I'm not committed either way to the August overseas joyride I outlined in my immediate, but I must confess I'm leaning away from it. I'm hardly throwing five stars about over my Auto-Train ride last month (really felt as if I were in Transient Airman Quarters), and would have had a better sleep in any of the "three star" hotels at which I tie up for en-route overnight stays. Further at my age and preference for privacy, the thought of being "homeless in Rome" is not very exciting. True, I have made day trips from Salzburg (Vienna, Graz, Linz, Innsbruck, St. Anton/Arlberg) and not booked "day room" hotels while away. But I could at any time, got the next train back - an option I would not have if I decided I had enough of Rome.
One final factor thst I know will have some readers "off the wall". My plan was to first go to Munich Airport and store my bag, taking what I needed for the joyride in a tote bag. That to me "is a problem", for on my overseas journeys, my bag is never out of my sight (haven't checked a bag on an airplane in over thirty years). Maybe I watch too much of the TV series "Locked Up Abroad", but the thought of picking it up at EDDM/MUC and there are the "Polizei" wanting me to answer "just a few questions", does not escape me.
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
Although not a European overnight train, I would like a few overnights on this one:
I like their cold, contemporary meals. I'll bet they're even better than Amtrak's version.
The ultimate experiential train. The luxury suite is only around $ 11,000.
Richard
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
Richard, thanks for sharing. But I think I’d rather take multiple LD trips on VIA or Amtrak for the same money.
GBN, why not just take your joyride to Rome and then fly home fro there. Most of our trips are planned that way so we can cover the most ground without backtracking (unintended pun)). It certainly worked for us- fly into Athens, return from Paris.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Mr. Palmland, let's see how and where the Coronavirus epi/pandemic runs its course. I could well end up CX-ing the entire trlp and taking a $1300 penalty/forfeiture "hit" ($620 Salzburg Festival concert tickets, $500 United Airlines exchange fee, $150 travel insurance). At 79yo, I don't need to end up hospitalized overseas infected by a virus for which there is no cure or immunization.
I am further "most definitely unthinking" another trip "down below" next month. That I can be out of without any kind of penalties.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
I’m sure Coronavirus is very serious, but, to put it in perspective in the U.S. there were 61,000 fatalities in the U.S. for 2017-18 flu season for our usual annual flu, according to CDC. I don’t think I want to rearrange my life for something that might happen, unless it’s a clear and present danger. Since flu usually fades by summer ‘let’s see how it runs its course’ seems like a sound plan, GBN.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
Apparently the severity of the disease can vary from quite mild to, well, fatal. I have no clear picture of the general health of the fatalities, but it could well be that these people were already in poor health to the extent that it did not take much to finish the job. Like Mr.Norman, at 75 I am not taking unnecessary chances, but observing the actions of people in the "memory care" facility were my wife resides, for a contagious disease to get in a place like this would be devastating. Most have forgotten the basic cautions that are common to cleanliness and sanitation. This place is relatively nice with limited numbers of people per wing, but still....
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
I now have "unthought" going "down below" during week of March 15. No CX fees for that - just clicks at Hyatt, IHG, and Hilton sites. Now I can vote on Primary Day March 17 (early voting? "it just doesn't feel the same" exercising this precious right we have around these parts).
I have a friend who is set to leave March 14 on a two week tour of Italy. She (widowed 74yo), her daughter and about eight other 50+ yo women are simply "playing it day by day". As related to me, the junket is to include an HSR ride on the FS.
As to my planned Aug 5 trip to Salzburg, that's of course "too far out" for a firm decision that, if scrubbed, will cost me some $1300 CX fees out of a total trip cost of about $6500.
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
Mr.Norman: I hope you won't have to cancel your Aug. trip to Salzburg.
I'm hoping we will know more, in another month or two, with regard to the extent of spread of the Coronavirus as well as mortality rates for those infected.
I am sort of planning a trip on the Empire Builder, in July, from Portland to Whitefish & Apgar. I will have a roomette or bedroom and I plan on having meals in my room. Hopefully, a very limited exposure to any sick people on board. However, the flight from Santa Rosa to Portland is another dilemma. Maybe a face mask take-along would be wise if I hear any coughing or sneezing in flight.
Richard
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Wall Street Journal travel column, The Middle Seat, has a summary of concerns confronting global travelers today. Not sure, beyond a "Thanks Gil" how my friend Carol reacted when she noted Italy was worthy of "precautionary" meadures.
I talked with my United FA friend, Maureen, today. She noted that there are about twenty or so passengers on the overseas flights she works that are wearing masks.
For me, even though I was going to drive on the CXD eight day Florida trip, there would still be five different hotels to stay at. I wanted to meet up with three different friends, but scrubbed before I asked any of them. Who knows, Paulette, the Bartender at the Hilton in Boca, who looks like and has same portrayed personality as the actress Kirsten Dunst, and knows me, might be wearing a mask. It will keep till next year.
Also no fun watching my portfolio going the wrong way, but that of course wasn't a "whether" but rather a "when".
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
quote:Originally posted by palmland: GBN, why not just take your joyride to Rome and then fly home from there.
Mr. Palmland, in common with anyone planning overeeas journeys this year, I'm carefully "monitoring" events as they unfold.
The overnight ride to Rome is OUT - Coronavirus notwithstanding. The January Auto-Train ride "simply did it" for me and any further "experiential" riding.
I'm waiting first to see if there are any reports from sources away from China saying the cases are dropping. I'm also watching to what extent United is waiving change fees. So far, they have not for my trip starting August 5. and with a ticket issued during January. The Festival I'd expect will refund tickets only when artists CX on them, so even if I scrub, I'm out the $625 for those. Aso out the $200 for trip insurance.
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
A resurgence in the overnight train. From last Dec:
From the article, "On Austrian railways, "Nightjet" sleeper trains now make up almost 20% of long-distance rail traffic, he says -- a far cry from the 5% in Germany, before Deutsche Bahn let them slide."
It looks like Greta Thunberg's "flight shame" may have many people agreeing with the Sun Queen.
Richard
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
I know that several here have all suggested I try out a Nightjet when next "going over", but I've been now seven times in the past eight years (missed '20; gee wonder why?). While not reported on at this topic, I did go last August to Salzburg - for the most expensive and least enjoyable on the bunch!!
"Least enjoyable" was, first, the airfare was $6K rather than the usual $3.5-$3.75. That I went at all, or God forbid went Coach, was that I had a travel certificate for $3K expiring April '22 (guess if I ran my personal finances "cookie jar", the flight would have been "only $3"). Secondly, the requirement to get a COVID test (Antigen would do) within 72hrs "hung over" me the entire time I was over. 72hrs out was Sunday so it had to wait until Monday. Getting any kind of health care overseas is scary enough (The Late Miss Vickie and Mr. Art had their share of such), and even if the English speaking technician "couldn't been nicer" - and it was free, it still is healthcare overseas (test negative).
Adding to "least enjoyable" is that United assigns 787-9 "Nightmareliners" to the ORD-MUC route. Those aircraft, with their Attendant controlled blinds, are for someone who could care less about flightseeing, but that's not me. Now, thinking about '22, they are assigning 787-9 aircraft to that route with standard 2 abreast Business Class seating. That's a step backward might I say.
Thanks to Mr. COVID, I did not take any "daytrips" this year. Previous ones have been Vienna, Innsbruck, Graz, Linz, and St. Anton/Arlberg. Guided tours have been "Sound of Music", Berchtesgaden (they wouldn't let me go - age - on the companion Salt Mine tour), and Cable-Car Untersberg. All that plus 3 or 4 concerts each year.
So we shall see if there are to be further trips - while I still can. For the audience here, I wish I could say I was "excited" to take a Nightjet, say, Munich-Rome. A fare I checked for a Deluxe room, single occupancy, shower, was €165 each way - doable, but "homeless in Rome" as noted earlier - too much. Train down, fly back? Why give up a Four Star hotel in Salzburg for that!
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman:
For the audience here, I wish I could say I was "excited" to take a Nightjet, say, Munich-Rome. A fare I checked for a Deluxe room, single occupancy, shower, was €165 each way - doable, but "homeless in Rome" as noted earlier - too much. Train down, fly back? Why give up a Four Star hotel in Salzburg for that! [/QB]
********************************************* Mr. Norman: 165 euros for a one-way Nightjet trip, Munich to Rome, seems very inexpensive. At today's rate, 165 Euros translates to about $ 186 US dollars. The distance from the SF Bay Area to Portland, OR is about the same as the distance from Munich to Rome. An Amtrak bedroom, one-way, will run about $ 690.
Richard
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Richard, €224,90 is the present rate to depart Salzburg Hbf in a Deluxe Compartment with private facilities including a shower to Rome Termni on March 15.
But I wouldn't even THINK of going over there at present; here is a email I sent to a friend I made this past journey and my reaction to Salzburg's lockdown and required VAX:
----------------------------- Hi Nadene
I haven't forgotten you and the wonderful kindness you showed me in Salzburg last August.
I thought you might be interested in the coverage over here of the actions your government is taking to control the COVID outbreak. You've been over here and you know as well as I such measures "just wouldn't sail". I'm simply ashamed how one can blatantly disregard regulations requiring a mask on an airplane and assaulting a Flight Attendant when addressed. Wonder why I haven't been on an airplane since returning home.
I went to Salt Lake City during Sept but went by auto; part because this was my first road trip since COVID but also to avoid going on a plane.
Richard
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Richard, I must wonder if they have already "pulled the pin" on this service.
I searched an entire week on the OBB's site during July and could not find any schedule. I think I'm "reasonably familiar" with that site.
Interesting how Eastward during July '60 was my first trip over this route, and on the Orient Express at that. This was Paris to Stuttgart to pick up the new Bennie on the "family trip". At Gare de Est, the Wagon Lits stretch out of sight and on the SNCF, train was steam powered.
The Sleeper was set out at Stuttgart and occupancy was allowed until 8A as I recall.
Posted by TwinStarRocket (Member # 2142) on :
European Sleeper Trains rise again, 5 years after this topic was started.
I like the "lie-flat" beds (1:35), a definite cut above Amtrak.
Richard
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
quote:I like the "lie-flat" beds (1:35), a definite cut above Amtrak.
Presumably, Richard, you mean the Couchette compared with a Coach seat, as opposed to Sleeper.
I have spent one night in this life in a Couchette; promise it was a "never again". That was during May '90 Madrid to Sevilla when my booked Wagon Lit Single Bedroom simply "wasn't". Walking into a room with three other males, shown an Upper, ostensibly "sleeping" with bag between my legs and documents in a back pocket against the wall....once was enough!
But let it be noted my concerns about the other guys were unfounded. Two Spaniards, one Dutch. The Dutchman was "terp" for all of us ("we're a small country; we have to know everyone's languages"). The journey ended in Sevilla with handshakes and well-wishes.
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
I was referring to Amtrak's fold down beds in their roomettes and sleepers ("private rooms"). I'm a light sleeper, and I couldn't sleep on those Amtrak beds without some sort of sleeping tablet. I convinced my doctor to give me 10 "Ambien" tablets about 12 years ago. I still have 7 left, which means I haven't taken an Amtrak sleeper in a long time. Over-the-counter "Unisom" works, for me, but I am a zombie the next day.
I looked at a few photos of European Couchettes...sorry, not for me.