posted
Amtrak's timing to announce this policy could not have been better, even if there are points that need be clarified. Hey, the $1.9B whopper of funding is now enacted, and by the time the FY 19 appropriation is in Committee and the Omnibus pulls up to its stop on the floor, all will be forgotten.
But it is hard to believe that Amtrak will not handle any further special moves such as Major League sports teams, the NJ legislators, the Philadelphia Orchestra, and others over the Corridor using Amtrak equipment.
Unfortunately for AAPRCO, Friends of 261, the Fall Excursion, and similar, the Adios drumhead could be out. Lest we forget, does Delta operate "nostalgia flights" with DC-3's?
PullmanCo Member # 1138
posted
GBN,
I can sort of understand the matter of no more charter specials...Amtrak has an equipment shortage and much of Amfleet is older now by a factor of two than the Heritage Fleet was on A-Day. Even so, Delta, United, AA, ad infinitum do a healthy business running chartered birds, no to mention the major charter specialists. Beyond that, the executive birds for lease also do a land office business.
PV are another matter. Indeed, Amtrak has only its big dome in line service. The cars built from 1937-1966 are retired from revenue service. Even so, there are ways to do this. Tell AAPRCO a minimum of three cars must make a run. Require AAPRCO to have a baggage car with common parts available for each PV movement. Tell AAPRCO if a mechanical failure happens, all PV will be set out at the next passing siding.
Finally, if the tariff needs to be adjusted, so be it.
yukon11 Member # 2997
posted
I wonder if the new policy will see the Winter Park Ski Train eliminated? I also wonder if there might be some way AAPRCO could purchase their own locomotive to cycle around the various train excursions around the country.
I imagine the freights could enjoy a substantial fee for allowing AAPRCO on their lines.
Richard
PS: There has just been a announcement that the Winter Park Ski Train is safe, at least for the next couple of years.
palmland Member # 4344
posted
It’s not clear to me what this means for PV operations,. Some reports indicate that PV will continue if there is no intermediate switching required. For instance, in the southeast PV could still operate from NYP to New Orleans, Miami, Savannah, Charlotte, and Newport New/Norfolk. If that is the case, it would not be the end of the world.
And one report says switching ok at intermediate locations if dwell time is more than 30 minutes. The big impact, it seems, would be on special trains. I certainly have no interest in riding on an Am I coach on an Amtrak sponsored special. So the real loss to me would be the occasional mainline excursion. Seeing and riding behind 611 on the ex-Southern mainline is a great experience and I will be sorry to see it go. Maybe we have to settle for seeing them operate on friendly short lines (thinking of TVRM excursions south of Chattanooga).
In any event, Mr Anderson and Amtrak could have done a much better job of rolling this out than a leaked internal memo that was later confirmed.
George Harris Member # 2077
posted
?? Unless this memo would stop NS from running passenger carrying trains, don't see how restrictions on Amtrak accepting PV's would have any effect on this.
quote:Originally posted by palmland: Seeing and riding behind 611 on the ex-Southern mainline is a great experience and I will be sorry to see it go.
daniel3197 Member # 27
posted
George, I think the real over problem is where to purchase insurance coverage for any Charter, PV or mainline steam trip. AMtrak is usually the Only Viable insurance provider for many Charters, PV, trips and Steam trips to my understanding. ---Daniel
palmland Member # 4344
posted
George, you are correct that the freight railroad could certainly operate any special or charter train they so chose. The NS has sold off their excursion cars and now it’s in the hands of the VA Trasnportation Museum to make it happen. No 611 excursions have been announced for this year. Hope I’m wrong but it appears the current NS management has no love affair for steam excursions as under Mr. Moorman’s leadership.
Most special trains are operated under the Amtrak umbrella for the liability protection it gives the freight railroad. I suspect the only class 1 railroad that will be operating special trains for the public is the UP, especially in 2019 for their 150 anniversary and the restoration of the Big Boy.
Amtrak’s policy’s is pretty clear: “Generally, Amtrak will no longer operate charter services or special trains. These operations caused significant operational distraction, failed to capture fully allocated profitable margins and sometimes delayed our paying customers on our scheduled trains,” the notice reads.”
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
posted
I think the insurance factor has much to do with this management decision.
At present, the underwriters look at Amtrak as a bad risk, and who knows to what extent the premiums Amtrak pays have been adversely affected by the apparent "breakdown" of any safety culture on the property. They also see in the case of the excursions, non-employees who may or may not be properly trained to ensure safety of passengers for which Amtrak is ultimately liable. They further see equipment maintained by outside parties that may or may not have been properly inspected before acceptance by Amtrak to handle.
I'll accept the statements here that operating excursions and handling "PV's" puts more in the cookie jar than they take out of it. But have any kind of an incident and that cookie jar won't have too many crumbs left.
I cannot say if this was the "right call", but it is the call that can be and has been made by Amtrak management.
Live with it.
MargaretSPfan Member # 3632
posted
Mr. Norman -- Thank you very much for everything you wrote in your very astute post. I think you zeroed in on the real reason for these new and draconian policies. Nothing else really makes sense.
Much as I mourn the end of main line steam excursions and PVs carried behind Amtrak, and the AAPRCO trains, I think Richard Anderson had no choice but to do what he did.
RPCA and AAPRCO miss the point, IMO. Passenger conduct, railfan conduct are the risks. Switching is the reason for the restriction on movements.
palmland Member # 4344
posted
I don’t know if the meeting betweenAnderson and WV Senator Machin had anything to do with this, but this PV, formerly based in Huntington, is rolling again (for some reason I’m on their mailing list):
*****************
Dearing Railroad
WE ARE BACK IN BUSINESS Changes from Amtrak required us to suspend these trips. They will now originate from new locations. All trips will begin in Savannah or Chicago and pickup in Washington, DC Sorry it has taken a while to respond to requests for reservations. Until today we did not know if our trips had been approved. Now we can move forward. We must know my April 28th if there is now enough interest to run the New Orleans trip. Please let us know or fill out and email the attached reservation. Thank you and we hope to be traveling with you soon. NEW ORLEANS WINE AND FOOD EXPERIENCE JOIN IN SAVANNAH,GA WASHINGTON, DC CHICAGO,IL or ATLANTA,GA TO NEW ORLEANS and return Depart: May 21(SAV) 8:20 AM Arrive: May 21(WAS) 7:42 PM Depart: May 21 (CHI) Arrive : May 21(WAS)
Depart: May 22 (WAS) 6:30PM Depart: May 23 (ATL) 8:38AM Arrive:May 23 (NOL) 7:32PM RETURN: Depart May 27 (NOL) 7:00AM Depart:May 27 (ATL) 8:04PM Arrive:May 28 (WAS) 9:53AM Depart:May 29 (WAS)10:00AM Arrive May 29(SAV) 9:04PM Re-position (CHI) TBD Contact Kevin Moore 814-229-6354 Package includes: Transportation - Meals en-route, breakfast and happy hour daily. Bedroom on board the rail car just blocks from the festivities. $3,300.00/person double occupancy ($6,600.00/bedroom) from DC bedrooms have private shower. $3,550.00/ person double occupancy from Savannah ($7,100.00/bedroom) $3,600.00/person double occupancy from Chicago ($7,200.00/bedroom)
More than 250 wineries are typically represented during the festival, with more than 800 vintages poured at a series of indoor and outdoor events. More than 75 of the city's fine restaurants take part. Tasting tickets and transportation on site NOT included as package prices vary based on your desires. https://www.nowfe.com/
INDEPENDENCE DAY IN BOSTON
Savannah, GA or Washington DC to Boston and return July 1 - 6, 2018 See the scenery during a daylight run to Boston Stay in The Luxury Rail Cars While There
Experience the Boston Pops patriotic concert and fireworks. Passengers can join in Savannah,Chicago or Washington. Depart SAV 7/1/2018 8:20AM Arrive WAS 7:42PM Depart CHI 7/1/2018 Depart WAS 7/3/2018 7:00AM Arrive BOS 3:54PM Depart BOS 7/5/2018 11:05AM Arrive WAS 7:48PM Depart WAS 7/6/2018 10:00AM Arrive SAV 9:04PM Re-position to CHI (TBT) Contact; Kevin Moore 814-229-6354 Meals en-route, breakfast and happy hour daily in Boston Room on board the rail car in South Station $2,450.00/person double occupancy ($2,600 from Savannah, $2,750 from Chicago) ($4,900/bedroom/ $5,280 from Savannah, $5,500 from Chicago). All bedrooms have private showers.
posted
I deleted my post because I wanted to think it over. TrainWeb's software does not let anyone completely delete any of their posts -- hence the blank space between the lines for a while.
And Amtrak has today released new guidelines for PV moves and charters and excursions. I may comment after I have read those guidelines and thought things over for a while.
yukon11 Member # 2997
posted
I wonder if the Norfolk & Western 611 will run any more train excursions from VMT? That is one I would, someday, like to take.
Richard
palmland Member # 4344
posted
Signs point to doubtful, Richard. NS sold their excursion cars and current management is no Wick Moorman as far as heritage operations. On the positive side, Amtrak doesn’t need to be involved. If VMT wants it and NS agrees, it will happen regardless of new Amtrak policies regarding special trains.
MargaretSPfan Member # 3632
posted
quote:Originally posted by palmland: Signs point to doubtful, Richard. NS sold their excursion cars and current management is no Wick Moorman as far as heritage operations. On the positive side, Amtrak doesn’t need to be involved. If VMT wants it and NS agrees, it will happen regardless of new Amtrak policies regarding special trains.
Yes, Amtrak does have to be involved. All excursion operators must have liability insurance for their excursions, and Amtrak is the only entity they can get that insurance through.
No one can afford to get such anywhere else, as no insurance company will write such a policy. The NS paid $500,000 for the premium for a 12-month policy during the last years of their "21st Century Steam" program. (That figure is from a very reliable source.)
At least the NS allows ferry moves -- under steam -- but no excursions.
palmland Member # 4344
posted
Margaret, I’m sure you meant Amtrak has to be involved if the operator wants reasonably priced liability coverage. I don’t believe it is required if a railroad operates the excursion or a short line is involved.
For instance, I don’t see Amtrak being involved with UP’s Cheyenne Frontier Days Special or their Big Boy excursions next year. Nor is Amtrak involved with TVRM’s specials over the Chattooga and Chickamauga RR (a G&W operation).
posted
palmland -- Thanks. Point conceded about tourist RR and such.
I do not know for a fact, but, FWIW, I think tourist lines, such as TVRM and the Silverton, etc., that operate on their own tracks, are not required to carry liability insurance policies whose limits are as large as the ones required in order to operate on Class 1 railroads -- around $250 million.
What I am sure about is that all charters and excursions on Class 1 railroads must get liability insurance for such charters and excursions through Amtrak, as -- even before Anderson's draconian new rules for Amtrak excursions and charters went into effect -- from what I have heard, no Class 1 railroad would even talk to an excursion or charter operator unless those operators had already gotten liability insurance through Amtrak.
Re: the Cheyenne Frontier days trains -- Although I have not seen this confirmed anywhere, I am pretty sure that the operator, the Denver Post, had liability insurance through the UP, and that must have been at a reasonable and affordable cost to the Post.
BTW, it has been reported elsewhere that this year's Cheyenne Frontier Days train is probably going to be the last one ever, because the Denver Post has been in poor financial shape and, as reported elsewhere, has been ought by a hedge fund. If a hedge fund has actually bought the Post, that is very bad news for all the Post's employees and for the Cheyenne Frontier Days train, as no hedge fund ever gives a darn about any business it buys, and all businesses so bought always go out of business fairly soon after a hedge fund has purchased them.
And the special excursion next month using Bennett Levin's beautiful E-8s has been canceled, as reported elsewhere yesterday. Amtrak informed the PRR H&TS that it would not allow this excursion to happen.
Here is the link to the announcement of this bad news by the PRR T&HS:
We are ll overdue for some ongoing good news, after all this bad news.
MargaretSPfan Member # 3632
posted
If you support Amtrak long-distance trains, please contact your Congressional representatives and senators and tell them you support long-distance trains.
Practical advice from a DC staffer about contacting Congresspeople:
1. Contact only those who represent you.
2. Be polite. Staffer have to listen to a lot of angry people and read a lot of angry e-mails, and have no power at all to influence the views of their bosses, the Congresspeople.
3, State the particular issue you are phoning or e-mailing about.
4. Say only if you are For or Against that issue, and nothing else. Do not bother to give reasons, because all that those staffers can ever do is to record the number of people who are For and Against any issue -- nothing else. Again -- staffers have no influence at all over the views of their bosses, the Congresspeople. And you have a much better chance of winning a huge lottery than your letter or e-mail has of being read by your Congressperson.
But do please contact your elected representatives about this, and any other issues you care about.
===> Petitions do *not* work. Ever. They are a complete waste of time. And "change dot org" pays its bills by selling your info to spammers.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
posted
From Crowne Plaza Ravinia Atlanta--
Promise you Margaret, Rep. Peter Roskam (R-IL6) is "not too interested" in hearing about supporting LD train enhancements.
MargaretSPfan Member # 3632
posted
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: Promise you Margaret, Rep. Peter Roskam (R-IL6) is "not too interested" in hearing about supporting LD train enhancements.
That is sad, and arrogant, from a man who is elected to represent the people in his district. What he wants is not important at all -- what his constituents want and need is important.
Nonetheless, I would still urge people to contact their Congresspeople. Giving up is the best way to make sure that nothing ever gets done. "Pessimism has no survival value."
But, yes, one must be realistic. And ever since "Citizens United" was allowed to stand by the Supereme Court, bribing politicians has been legal. That is what We The People are up against. But -- there are a heck of a lot more of us ordinary people than there are of the mega-wealthy, who currently are getting everything they went -- at our expense, literally and figuratively.
We definitely have our work cut out for us!
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
posted
Maybe, just maybe, this guy has a chance against Roskam.
He's got my vote - for no reason beyond the long shot chance we could be rid of Roskam.
posted