No question whatever "that man in the White House" (a term FDR haters used - my Maternal Grandfather being one. They emigrated to Wolfgangsee - near Salzburg - during '34; wonder why they "outta there" during '38?) come January 20, will be more "passenger train friendly" than is the incumbent.
Over at another site, they're dreaming of restored Daily LD's full-service Dining, Systemwide handling "PV's", and new and/or restored LD routes. I'm thinking more along the lines of Gateway, Amfleet replacements, making CHI-STL into what was intended (not what it has become), and encouraging the several private sector Corridor projects "in the works".
Now what I believe to make all this come forth is a "passenger train friendly" chain of command in the Biden administration, starting with the Sec Trans, FRA Administrator. and Chief of the FRA Rail Policy Development Office. All are Executive Appointments and need Senate confirmation.
Now ler's recognize that Joe and his transition team have a few more higher up appointments, oh you know, like AG, Defense, State, and Treasury to worry about - especially getting them confirmed, than Trans, who could well be confirmed by acclamation. Now who could fill that "passenger train friendly" chain?
Enquiring mind wants to know.
Posted by Ocala Mike (Member # 4657) on :
All you had to know about the "Trump Train" was that it was rubber tires on roadway and looked more like a movement of ISIS troops than a show of patriotism. There's no question that Biden will be good for Amtrak, but the Senate will have to be bribed (at least those Senators who have no or poor Amtrak service and could care less about improving it, like Messrs. Rubio and Scott).
Posted by Jerome Nicholson (Member # 3116) on :
The operative word is "Senate." If the Democrats win those two Georgia seats, then no problem. If not, who's to say Mitch McConnell wont be as big an obstacle to Biden as he was to Obama once the GOP won the Senate in 2010? And I just remembered; Amtrak loses amenities under Republicans ( tablecloths,silverware, flowers, newspapers, cooked meals), while they lose whole trains under Democrats ( Pioneer, Desert Wind, Floridian, North Coast, Broadway Limited). This changed under Obama, at least as far as the Dems were concerned, but the Republicans went back to bringing us "crap - in -a-box". So we'll see.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
Remember the biggest cuts ever to Amtrak were under Carter. I fully expect Biden to be all talk no action except the Northeast Corridor and possibly California, Chicago-St. Louis and a few other urban area corridors, and even there more talk that action. After near 50 years in the engineering profession, mostly with design firms, I am well aware that calling for a study is a usual way to look like you are doing something when you really aren't. Remember based on who voted for who and where the lived Biden and party are well aware that they owe the rest of the country nothing and we can expect them to treat them accordingly. (Some of the rural areas went as high as 80% Trump.)
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Mr. Harris, "we're together" on this one. "Amtrak Joe" is really "Corridor Joe", and anyone who has "visions" of the Carter and Mercer/Clinton cuts being restored, Mama Cass performed a great version of your "operative song".
If Joe wants to be "The Passenger Rail President", he will first be appointing a "passenger train friendly" chain starting with a SecTrans, then FRA Administrator, to Director of Rail Policy Development that will direct efforts to get the lacking infrastructure projects, e.g. Gateway, moving. If the LD Tri-Weekly frequencies remain, and no plans for a Superliner-III fleet move forth, that is simply recognition of what 21st Century rail passenger service is all about.
I think we need recognize that Joe is a one-term President, if even that. If the latter be the case, it is fortunate that Kammy is also from a passenger train friendly region.
Finally, from The Wall Street Journal. here is a column relating to our discussion at this topic.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Former Obama WHCS and Chicago mayor Rahm Emanuel was on the "short list", but Joe seems to consider him "toxic" owing to some "itchy trigger fingered cops" on his Mayoral watch.
There are reports that Mayor Pete, presently out of work, is the new SecTrans frontrunner. He should be an easy "confirm", but where is his transportation- any mode - experience?
Further, being out of office, means no issues with succession. Such issues are keeping Liz out of Joe's Cabinet, who I think he would like to have to show "reconciliation", but would result in a Senate vacncy that Republican Mass Gov. Baker would fill with a Republican deepening the Senate's, from a Dem perspective, "imbalance".
Pete's smart, and a quick learner. But again given no transportation experience and from a State where away from its side of metropolitan Chicago, passenger rail, sponsoring agency notwithstanding, is simply a "non-entity".
addendum: Mayor Pete was designated today Dec 15, and delivered a "forceful" acceptance speech.
Politically, Amtrak is a teat on a boar hog, useful only to give someone a teeny tiny drab of money. When you compare it to the Forest Service, National Park System, National Weather Service, not to mention the more essential services (Printing and Engraving, the Mint, the Regulators at the SEC, the IRS, the FAA or the safety agencies), it's a small wonder it keeps even getting an appropriation.
The table below represents the "Amtrak Caucus" IMO state
representatives California 53 New York 27 Illinois 18 Pennsylvania 18 Ohio 16 Michigan 14 Virginia 11 Washington 10 Massachusetts 9 Connecticut 5 181 Votes
Alabama 7 Alaska 1 Arizona 9 Arkansas 4 Colorado 7 Delaware 1 Florida 27 Georgia 14 Hawaii 2 Idaho 2 Indiana 9 Iowa 4 Kansas 4 Kentucky 6 Louisiana 6 Maine 2 Maryland 8 Minnesota 8 Mississippi 4 Missouri 8 Montana 1 Nebraska 3 Nevada 4 New Hampshire 2 New Jersey 12 New Mexico 3 North Carolina 13 North Dakota 1 Oklahoma 5 Oregon 5 Rhode Island 2 South Carolina 7 South Dakota 1 Tennessee 9 Texas 36 Utah 4 Vermont 1 West Virginia 3 Wisconsin 8 Wyoming 1 Total 435
Truth be told, Amtrak is weaker in the Senate than it is in the House. Witness when Kansas held it over a barrel about track repairs for 3-4.
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
Amtrak's plan for a major expansion under Biden:
The orange lines depict new services for existing routes. The light blue lines show new Amtrak routes.
In the above link, if you click on "proposed map", in blue, you will get the same map as above, but a little clearer and easier to read.
Richard
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Network Growth Strategy; Version 2.0
"For those tuning in late", NGS was the "W-Gang's" brainchild where circa 2K, they were going to start a "slew" of frequency increases and even new routes - all were built around the "Mixto Diarios" (freight - whoops Express - business spearheaded by none other than Ed Ellis).
The routes included NY-LA bypassing Chicago (probably over the PRR 16th Street bridge and interchanged with the Q at Halstead St) and a host of others. One of such actually ran; the Lake Country Limited Chicago-Janesville, WI. Amtrak/Ellis had "visions" of handling auto parts to the GM plant at Janesville. Only problem; GM shut the plant down. He did pick up one customer up there; a cat food producer. Learning of that, someone christened it the "Friskies Flyer". The consist was one Horizon and one Boxcar.
Another one, Skyline Connection, Phila-Chicago, on roundly the Manhattan Ltd WW and the Pennsylvania Limited EW schedule, made it into the System Timetable with the notation "service to begin on a date to be announced".
Funny thing is that Joe's "Trillybuck" infrastructure initiative, while envisioning "Billiebucks" for rail, does not envision new routes for Amtrak. What funds eventually appropriated from such are to go where it counts - Corridors!
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
I do think corridor infrastructure repair will be a very high priority. I'm not too optimistic about the new light-blue routes ever developing unless funding is picked up by states where the light-blue lines run. Perhaps San Luis Obispo to the Bay Area (extension of the Pacific Surfliner), or a branch line on the Sunset Limited to Phoenix might be possible.
I am curious as to what the orange line "new services for existing routes" exactly means.
Richard
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
I am very much a proponent of passenger trains, however, hopefully I am also a realist. With most of these long distance routes, they are servicing areas that Joe owes nothing. They did not just not not vote for him, they overwhelmingly voted against him, and have congressional delegations to match.
As to the corridors, Boston-NY-Wash would require major alignment adjustments to reduce times much below where they are now, but since this is Biden's home turf and major support zone a lot will likely be spent here and with luck we might get 50 cents benefit for each dollar spent, but it will likely be less.
It would be logical for such routes as NY-Chi to have a second or even third train spread throughout the clock. Maybe a second Chi-LA train on the ATSF route. Perhaps an extra Chi-Minneapolis train or two, but a lot of the other routes are hallucinations. The simple fact is that most routes proposed will not come close to driving time speeds. No one with a grain of sense would propose Atlanta-Nashville on the current line. You would have an 8 hour minimum train on a 4 hour drive route. Many of these routes would require major trackwork to get up to the speeds of 50-60 years past. If you want to bring trains back to Phoenix it would require a near complete rebuild of the segment servicing it, a hundred miles or so. Ohio is more or less natural for medium speed trains between major cities, but again quite a bit of trackwork required plus station facilities that have long since ceased to exist. I could go on for a while, but I think I will quit here.
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
George:
If an Amtrak train Nashville to Atlanta would not be possible, could a Nashville to Carbondale, IL train be possible? Thus a connection with the southbound City of Memphis. I see the Amtrak map shows a Thruway bus service from Nashville to Carbondale. Any old L&N track still useful for such a route?
Richard
Posted by TBlack (Member # 181) on :
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: Network Growth Strategy; Version 2.
Funny thing is that Joe's "Trillybuck" infrastructure initiative, while envisioning "Billiebucks" for rail, does not envision new routes for Amtrak. What funds eventually appropriated from such are to go where it counts - Corridors!
Actually, Gilbert, AMTRAK has said they plan to add new routes. I've forgotten the list, but if you Google Amtrak new routes, it all comes up.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
If you want to go Nashville to Chicago, the best would be the original Humming Bird and Georgian route, L&N-C&EI via Evansville. Alternately, with quite a bit of track upgrades involved north of Louisville KY would be Chicago - Indianapolis - Louisville - Nashville, Wow! You could carry that on to Birmingham, Montgomery, and Mobile, either quitting there or going on to New Orleans, thereby resurrecting the Humming Bird, or call it the Pan American. Most of that line is still in fairly good condition, and has, compared to quite a few others, possibly reasonably good run times, if you call 45 to 50 mph averages good. If you are thinking resurrecting the Floridian, forget it. The line out of Montgomery is not fast, and so far as I know unsignaled. Mostly reasonably straight, but megabucks to get good speeds.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Mr. Black, I could be mistaken, but to my knowledge, all this talk about new routes is an Amtrak initiative titled Connected US and is separate from the infrastructure initiative Joe has proposed.
So far as the Connected US initiave goes, I can't figure out if it is more absurd than was the earlier Network Growth Strategy. But to me, they are one in same - dreams.
Posted by TBlack (Member # 181) on :
Gilbert, I get the feeling you need your pillows plumped up a bit. If they get the $80 billion, they've got some room to maneuver and dream.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
I regard most of this as just talk by people who are talkers somewhere between talkers and genuine con artists. If all these things come together, job killing executive orders, large influx of people across the southern border needing government assistance, and huge spending programs, the most likely thing we are going to have is inflation going berserk, and most proposals just turning into another pile of dreamland reports. In highway work there is this thing called the benefit cost ratio, and theoretically you build the ones having the highest number first, but politics commonly get in the way of logic so reality is usually quite different. Expect that to play out here, and since as noted, the Biden administration has less than overwhelming support from most of "flyover country" to put it mildly (some rural counties went as high as 80% Trump) I expect very little in the way of any improvements to long distance services since these parts of the country would be the prime beneficiaries of long distance service improvements. So, even if some of these long distance service would be of more benefit per passenger-mile, do not expect them to happen. The use of raw passenger numbers rather than passenger-miles plays out to benefit expenditures on the "corridors" as corridor passengers usually are making shorter distance trips.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Now I think I've sorted it out.
The American Jobs Plan Act is the title of the $2T infrastructure rebuilding that will be introduced in the House by a "friendly" Congressman.
The legislation, a long, LONG, way from being enacted, provides $80B, or 8/200 - 4%, for railroad improvements.
The "Connected US" proposal represents the dream of the railfan contingent. brought about by the $80B "heist", within Amtrak that holds the investor owned Class I industry need be beholden unto them and operate passenger trains such as Nashville-Atlanta which are time competitive with bicycling.
Utter absurdity.
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
Maybe forget a Nashville to Atlanta train and, instead, have a bicycle trail between those 2 cities. Environmentally sound and the Greenies would be ecstatic.
Out my way, the SMART train (Larkspur to Santa Rosa) wasn't going to be built unless they also constructed a bicycle lane in parallel to the train track. However, the SMART is in peril, as a quarter-cent sales tax, to continue expansion, was rejected by voters last year.
Richard
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Here is a very interesting development regarding the proposed American Jobs Plan Act:
The Senate parliamentarian has advised that a revised budget resolution can include reconciliation instructions, opening a path for Democrats to pass spending legislation by a simple majority vote, an aide for Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer said Monday. Budget reconciliation, a parliamentary procedure to bypass the two-thirds requirement for legislation, was used to pass President Biden's $1.9 trillion American Rescue Plan….
All told, if this position stands, Joe will get what he wants (I think Chuck can get Manchin to toe the line); and the Republicans cannot force by Filibuster a 60 vote Cloture rule.
Oh well, so much for compromise that Joe talked about during the campaign. Of course, it's "been a while" since any president has enjoyed a 54% job approval rating (even the Republican leaning Rasmussen poll gives him 47%; Trump's highest was a "honeymoon" 57% from same).
I must acknowledge one thing about which as of today I have been mistaken. I thought Joe was going to be a "caretaker" president who would resign during Summer '23. Well to date, he certainly has not been a "caretaker" and for all I know, he just might seek, at age 82, re-election in '24.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
quote:Originally posted by George Harris: The simple fact is that most routes proposed will not come close to driving time speeds. No one with a grain of sense would propose Atlanta-Nashville on the current line. You would have an 8 hour minimum train on a 4 hour drive route.
Back on the Connected US dream sheet and Nashville-Atlanta, I guess The Georgian must be part of my "one that got away" stories. Away from a Chi-Danville ride on the C&EI, I simply did not have occasion. By the time I did have occasion during Oct '68 for a wedding in Atlanta, the "remnants" were a Coach only Evansville-Atlanta, and "Delta was ready when I was" (takeaway from a one time tagline they had).
As Mr. Harris notes, the NC&StL is rather circuituous to avoid Monteagle heading well South until joining the Tennessee River at Stevenson, thence following it into Chattanooga. Somehow, I think its passengers were a sleep deprived bunch - especially if one's accommodation was a Section (yes L&N ordered lightweight cars 6-4-6 "--- Pine" - but not one named "If You've Seen One You've Seen 'Em All Pine"!!!! ) or Roomette - both over the wheels.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
Checking Google Maps, it shows Nashville to Atlanta as 250 miles, 3h41m. The rail distance is 287 miles, best time ever for the Georgian was about 6 hours to 6h15m, and was around 7 hours by the mid 60's before C&EI gave up and was allowed to drop it north of Evansville, essentially ending is major source of passengers. Last time I looked, the speed limit from Cartersville GA to Atlanta was 35 mph, and would be unlikely to be above 40 mph for passenger trains. To give an idea of how round about its routing was due to the terrain, from Chattanooga heading toward Nashville you are aiming in a nearly southeast direction, not turning north until getting to Stevenson AL approximately 40 miles away and heading toward Atlanta from Chattanooga for a few miles you are heading just a little eastward from due North. Even the road distance is considerably longer than the straight line air distance, due to the terrain. Air distance is 214 miles versus 250 on the road and 287 on rail. Throw into this 7 plus flights per deay, and a train on the existing railroad is an absolute non-starter.
Terrain in this part of the country is such that at one time there was a through sleeper Nashville to Knoxville via Chattanooga, which entailed shifting the car from the NC&StL station to the Southern station in Chattanooga as well. Time was about the same as the through Nashville to Knoxville sleeper on the Tennessee Central which was handed of to the Southern at Harriman TN. Both of these were gone in the early 1950's if not earlier. Despite the proximity of these cities, a sleeper between them was not as irrational as it may sound to anyone who has driven the distance pre I40 on US70. To help grasp this, in the summer of 1958 we took a driving trip to Washington DC. Leaving my grandparent's house about 10 miles west of Jackson TN we got about 50 miles east of Knoxville before calling it a day. That was with 6 people, 3 in front and 3 in back in a 1957 Chevy, which was actually quite comfortable.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Mr. Harris, I had a '57 Chev myself. Rather "stripped", monotone Green, but a V-8. It's what "Grammy" wanted (aka a Salesman wanting to be rid of it) and eventually it got into my hands.
And I was no more into "souping up cars" than I am today with my Lex LS.
But back to the '50's, no wonder The Georgian, even with its over the wheels Roomettes in those "--Pine" sleepers (obviously not my favorite configuration) was a viable choice. Must have been "real sport" pre I-24; even today, it appears some people are "freaked" by that stretch of the 24. As for me, I drive it, but just as glad to have it over and done. Eastward, the descent is posted 45; try telling that to some 18 wheeler who thinks 70 is more like it.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
Pre I75/I24 the train was as fast as driving and a lot lest nail biting. The 150 mile route with the 2,200+/-Cowan Tunnel was the shortest practical rail route in 1850. The only better would be to follow more or less the route of US41 (then) and I24 (now)up the valley from the south and have a tunnel on the order of 5 miles long under Monteagle. This could be done with about a 1% grade from both directions. The tunnel would be about 900 feet lower than Monteagle itself, and although paralleling I24, by staying on the hillside for a much longer distance than I24 keep the southside grade low. This would bring the overall Nashville Chattanooga rail distance down to near that of the highway.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
So let's see; the NC&STL parallels the 24 from Nashville until it diverges at 24's Mile 81. By way of reference, Monteagle summit is Mile 151, and at Mile 163.4, it X's on a high trestle to Chattanooga.
Here's an ETT to identify rail points of interest such as Cowan Tunnel noted by Mr. Harris and Stevenson, AL, where it, and the SRY, joins the Tennessee River into Chattanooga.
All told, even if this line were seized from Chessie to have a passenger train only line (the way I'd swear some advocates think), it is still not going to be speed competitive Nash-Chat with existing highways.
Incidentally, Joe's meeting at the White House with leaders of both Houses and parties reportedly "didn't go too well" for Joe. Not just passenger rail by a long shot, the AJPA Bill is simply too cluttered with special interest provisions to be considered "infrastructure".
I don't think that you would be able to "sing along" with the Rollings Stones. It looks like, from the photo, they're trying to play a vinyl, 33 rpm stereo record on an old gramophone.
Richard
Posted by Ocala Mike (Member # 4657) on :
Biden and the Dems subscribe to the Lewis Carroll/Humpty Dumpty theory of language in defining the word "infrastructure."
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean- neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master-that's all."
With 50 + 1, they are master right now.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ocala Mike: With 50 + 1, they are master right now
Mike, that's the crux of the whole problem.
First, assuming that Chuck can get Sen. Manchin (D"INO"-WV) in line, and Nancy "her recalcitrants", Joe can have what he wants. But Joe came to town on a C-32 declaring he would govern with bipartisanship. However, AJPA21 has become so "oinky", with every agency in town presenting their version of Connected US that the "Reconciliation" Senate Rule requiring only 50+Kammy to pass is jeopardized.
With 60 votes needed, Joe will be empty handed, and come Jan '23, when the Republicans have both houses again, stand by for anarchy. Joe's final two years in office, if he even serves them, will be a very debilitating experience for a man who has dedicated his life to honorable public service.
Had Joe clearly defined infrastructure with the introduction of AJPA, and given no lip service to the likes of Connected US from any interest group, he'd have something that maybe even a Republican or two, or their constituents, thinks a good idea, there'd be something. The "oinky" belongs in the Omnibus - some of which actually sees the light of day after Committee, and the Omnibus always gets passed, save the occasional disruptions from the partial "shutdowns" that occur.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
It's the everything but the kitchen sink contents that is sinking the bill for many. If it were limited to road, rails, and air, and maybe throw in some of the pipeline work that was stopped, it might have a better chance, but to talk about it solving various and sundry social issues, real and imaginary is simply stupid, and that is about as polite as I can say it.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
And here is another potential "corridor" https://www.yahoo.com/news/amtrak-wants-partner-front-range-143500250.html Pueblo - Colorado Springs - Denver - Cheyenne WY. Again, a look at a map and freight volumes on the line should bring some reality out of this hallucination. This is a heavily traveled freight route, at one time mostly double track, not sure what is the status today, but it has some significant grades and enough curvature that it cannot ever be high speed without major alignment revisions. (Do these people ever think of speed restrictions for curves, etc.?) Maybe my Civil Engineering life is in the way here.
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