There is much discussion regarding this proposal at another site. Some of the discussion relates to the "shaky" financial status of Rocky Mountaineer, and that they are looking at declining ridership - even pre-COVID. Who knows what effect COVID has had on their financial stability, but I'd place bets "it ain't pretty".
There is a line to near Moab, DRGW/UP Cane Creek Branch, was built during the '60's to serve a Potash mine, and diverges from the Zephyr route at Crescent Jct, which is 20 miles East of Green River. "Pacing it" on the Googlemobile, I would guess it to be not more than FRA Class 3 (psgr; 60 mph). But with that being noted, the only reasonable and practical way to reach Moab is a 117 mile bus ride from Grand Jct. Grand Jct. is, again, the only reasonable and practical location at which a passenger train could be turned.
Continuing with the absurdity of the RMT proposal, likely the best place to "overnight" the passengers would be Glenwood Springs, as I don't recall too much beyond rail facilities in Grand Junction.
Of course, they need offer an "Aspen option" for those paying $5000 ppdo and otherwise "wouldn't be seen" in "low brow" Glenwood Springs.
The Hotel Denver in Glenwood Springs is much more the "railfan Mecca" than is the better known Hotel Colorado. Another point is I'm at a loss to think of where they would park the train there (last through there by auto during '14; never ridden the Amtrak-era Zephyr).
Possibly UP is in favor of this proposal. It is a good way to get the Zephyr permanently routed on the Overland Route in the hope of "no butts on the cushions" so Amtrak will just whack it. Further, they could charge RMT a "mite bit more" than the "incremental cost" of access that reportedly is in the bilateral Amtrak/UP Operating Agreement.
But all told, I think the whole "proposal" was little more than a "media splash".
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
I am really surprised.
I have long thought the Rocky Mountaineer would venture across the border for luxury excursions down our way. If not the RM, maybe Brightline. As far as possible routes, Denver to Moab wouldn't be the first that would come to mind. The Mountaineer's success has a lot to do with the train experience, Canadian Rockies, luxury cruise boat extensions, and upscale hotels as part of their packages. I can't believe Denver-Moab would gain that much revenue especially if the RM returns to their normal schedule this summer.
I wonder about teminating in Moab? Are there many hotels/motels there? I believe United flies from Moab to Denver. I guess, as you say Mr. Norman, a Zephyr return to the Overland Route and Wyo. might be a plus should that happen.
Richard
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Richard, "checking around", Skywest, flying for United, offers at present "two a day" CNY-DEN. The airport, Canyonlands Field is 21 mi away from Moab.
So far as hotels, there is a Hilton that might meet the expectations of RMT clientele, but otherwise, the major chain's offerings appear to be their low-end to mid-level brands.
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
It looks like the trip will cost $ 1250, which includes an overnight in Glenwood Springs and it does appear the Hotel Colorado will be the one.
The RM website says they will have some sort of package or service to link Moab to Salt Lake City or Moab to Las Vegas. I wonder if it will be a bus or plane linkage. If a bus link, it will be a long bus ride as Moab to SLC is 200 miles and Moab to Las Vegas is 300 miles.
Richard
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
To my utter astonishment, first departure from Denver was Sunday August 15:
I would like to do it but I can't find a satisfactory way to get to Moab from Calif. The RM does have a package from Las Vegas to Bryce Canyon to Moab, but that requires the first 2 days on a bus. Not my cup of tea There is a flight from Denver to Moab and vice versa but it would mean a double back. Also, I don't know if the RM requires face masks and I sure don't want to wear one on a bus.
A possibility would be heading east on the Zephyr, getting off in Green River, UT, and renting a car to Moab. About a 50 min. drive from Green River to Moab. However, I don't know if there is a rental car agency in Green River or Moab.
Richard
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
The inaugural run of the Rocky Mountaineer in the United States barreled its way across the stunning landscapes of two Far Western states as the Canadian company known for luxury overnight train travel debuted its service on August 15.
The two-day luxury excursion between Denver, Colorado, and Moab, Utah - Rockies to the Red Rocks - took guests on a journey along the Colorado River and through canyons with steep rugged walls. The custom-fitted train stops for the night at the approximate halfway point in Glenwood Springs, Colo., where the route features mountain vistas, desert cliffs and rock formations.
Suggestion: if you go and they offer a choice of Glenwood Springs hotels, select The Hotel Denver if you want a "room with a view".
Posted by TBlack (Member # 181) on :
I think dropping customers in Moab is a killer.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Messrs. Black and Richard; so this is a one-way junket on the train, leaving a passenger on their own to find their way home or to Moab?
With only "two a day" for flights on puddle jumpers at that, as well as only one "four star" (Hilton) in town, that will be "sport" for these folks, while maybe not to the level as those in the TV show "The White Lotus", who are used to being pampered.
Now of interest to me is how did Rocky Mountain get on to UP's rails? OK, they negotiated a bilateral agreement; but are they on there at Amtrak's bargain basement rates thereby being complicit with a Taking, or they paying something that I consider fair - the opportunity cost of whatever train the UP (or BNSF with their trackage rights) cannot run account their usage of the tracks?
Of further interest is by whom and under what Agreement are the Operating crews employed?
Enquiring mind wants to know.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
An interesting observation I noted over at another site; the Mountaineer appears to leave Denver from somewhere other than DUT.
Look closely at the clip I previously linked and I believe it shows that report has foundation.
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
From what I could find, it looks like the Rocky Mountaineer leaves from the Union Pacific yard in Denver, not from Denver Union Station. It could be temporary.
In Vancouver BC, before 2005, the Mountaineer used the Pacific Central Station. Now, they have their own station. It's quite nice, I especially liked to hear the guy playing classical music from the station piano:
The lodging in Moab is the Hyatt Place Hotel. It looks quite nice, but nothing like the lodging at the terminus of the RM routes to the Rockies. For Banff, Lake Louise, and Jasper you can stay, respectively, at the Banff Springs Hotel, Chateau Lake Louise, and Jasper Park Lodge, with all as part of the package. I think the only attraction, on the RM Denver to Moab, is Glenwood Springs.
How about, for the US Rocky Mountaineer, Seattle to Spokane then divide the train for Whitefish-Glacier Park with the other leg going to Livingston- Yellowstone along the Montana Rail Link.
I've had several wonderful trips on the Canadian Rocky Mountaineer (6 trips logged). I would like to see the Denver to Moab Mountaineer make a go of it. I wonder, however, if by next summer the Denver-Moab RM will still be around.
Richard
Posted by ghCBNS (Member # 3093) on :
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: An interesting observation I noted over at another site; the Mountaineer appears to leave Denver from somewhere other than DUT.
Denver Train Siding 36th Street and Wazee Street Denver, Colorado Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Thank you, Mr. Hadfield.
"Not exactly" the most "fitting" of locales at which to begin any kind of "luxojourney", but then, DUT has become a much used mass transit facility in the same way as has LAUPT.
I still think the most interesting, at least to me, would be learning the terms of access Rocky Mountain negotiated with the UP. But then, that is a bilateral agreement with no public disclosure provisions.
Same applies regarding employment of the operating crews as well as their Labor Agreement.
Finally, allow me to reiterate my utter astonishment this operation ever rolled. For how long, who knows?
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
New "buzzword": Curated
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
This is "sport"; go to RMT's site to find out a schedule of when they will operate and you get nothing.
Also of interest; you want a brochure? While there is a tab marked "download brochure", but if you want one, you must REGISTER. They also state "account COVID" no printed brochures at this time.
I"m hardly about to register; lest the "clickbait bombardments" begin. I'm really starting to wonder just how frequent, if at all, they presently operate?
Now why all this interest on the part of one who has stated he no longer gets "experiential ecstasy" from a train ride? I am giving some tentative thought to a road trip to Salt Lake City during second half this month. While the Utah Symphony (I went several times when I was stationed at Hill AFB) is performing, the Mormon Tabernacle Choir is not. Therefore for my return (out would be I-80 with overnights York NE and Little America WY) along US6 to I-70 (more or less following the CZ), I'd leave SLC early and divert to Moab (never went there during my 68-69 HAFB tour). If I knew if RMT was running, I wouldn't be above a little "chasing" (don't think it would be too difficult) with a tie up that night in Grand Jct. My last trip that way during '14, I tied up at The Hotel Denver in Glenwood Springs. Since then, it looks like it's become an "overgrown quainty B&B" with canopied four poster beds AND $250ni rates. Sorry, no thanks on that - a $150ni "best surprise is no surprise" Express or Hampton is more to my liking.
That my 60th Reunion at South Kent School was CXD and my Sister's refusal to VAX scrubbed that road trip, the urge to take one while I still can, is still there. If this Utah trip appears "just too much" after starting it, well I just turn back losing nothing more than maybe a hotel CX charge.
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
I tried to find the Denver to Moab schedule, on the Mountaineer site, but I also could find nothing. I have tried to download the brochure, for a particular RM route, but I also had no success.
A few years back, I requested a hard copy of all Mountaineer routes and packages. I received a beautifully done 100 page booklet, showing such, in the mail with no charge. Times have changed.
I've been to Little America in Flagstaff, AZ and the Wyoming Little America. From memory, the WY Little America had something like 50 gas pumps on the premises. I wonder if they still do.
Richard
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Richard, Little America, WY is indeed full of contrasts. When I was last there April '14, there were the fifty or so gas pumps. Today, they probably have a few Charging Stations as well, but somehow, I don't think Tesla's "are the car" for road trips.
Now I'm of the "tie up every night with a "sit down Dinner" road tripper (and my Lex LS pretty well obviates any "endurance contest" feelings of such), but I've seen people at LA, who look as if they were on an "assault course". I can recall a family (Mom and four kids in some "rolling total") asking me where is the Post Office (they have one)? Found out they were driving from Alabama (escaping who or what I asked not) to who knows where and I'll bet they had subsisted on potato chips and jerky (Mickey D's I'd think too $$$ for them) since then.
Finally and BTW, should I do this road trip and see the RML, I'll forward photos to someone like Mr. Hadfield, who has the means to post them here.
addendum: I decided to tie up in Moab instead of Grand Junction. I wonder what is going on in Moab? Room at an EXPRESS Sat Sep 25 is $359/ni. All they promise is a "grab and go" Breakfast.
I'm used to paying about $150ni at that level of hotel.
Could RML be in town?
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
I've learned from another site, that the "Moab Union Station" is to be UT 313 and the tracks. The Googlemobile has been by there.
Kind of at a loss as to how they would alight elderly, and possibly disabled, passengers there; let alone where busses would park to handle the transfer, which of course includes luggage.
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
I finally found a schedule:
Moab to Denver: Day 1 - Moab to Glenwood Springs Departure: 2:00pm MT Arrival: 7:00pm - 8:00pm MT
Day 2 - Glenwood Springs to Denver Departure: 9:00am MT Arrival: 5:00pm - 6:00pm MT
Denver to Moab: Day 1 - Denver to Glenwood Springs Departure: 9:00am MT Arrival: 5:00pm - 6:00pm MT
Day 2 - Glenwood Springs to Moab Departure: 7:00am MT Arrival: 12:00pm - 1:00pm MT
Richard
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Most interesting Richard; so if it departs or arrives Moab on Saturday Sep 25, I would be in excellent position to observe - and even chase - it.
That is when I plan to travel Salt Lake to Moab - and that is contingent on I even make the trip. $359 for an EXPRESS, "Grab and Go" Breakfasts (even at the full service Hilton I booked for SLC), masks, high infection rates, no Tabernacle Choir, and just being 80yo - are all "turn offs".
Posted by Ocala Mike (Member # 4657) on :
Will you be railfanning SLC, Gil? I should put my son who lives in Murray in touch with you - he and my grandson know where all the good spots are around the UP rail yards.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Not planning any, Mike. Plan to arrive Salt Lake Friday about 3, have Dinner, attend a Utah Symphony concert, and go to bed. Saturday drive to Moab over the Wasatch by way of Big Cottonwood Canyon, US40 and US191 - all contingent on that I don't scrub out (won't be standing anyone up).
All told, what kind of Luxotrain leaves from a freight yard, ties up at a non air conditioned hotel outside of town, and terminates at a grade X-ing?
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
What the above schedule doesn't say is what days the eastbound leaves Moab and what days the westbound train leaves Denver. Also, the eastbound train doesn't give you much time in Glenwood Springs. The westbound train a little but not much more time. No time to visit downtown Glenwood Springs and mosey on over to the mountaineering store, on the site of the old Hotel Glenwood where Doc Holliday died (not at a sanatorium as depicted in the movie, "Tombstone").
The last time I was in Glenwood I rented a car and took a very scenic drive up highway 70 to Beaver Creek, CO. Great overnight stay.
I wonder if the RM would have been better off if the route would be SLC to Glenwood the first day. One full day in Glenwood, then Glenwood to Denver the 3rd day.
Richard
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
Although highly promotional, I found the following link of interest:
I'm sure "Silverleaf Plus" is more than adequate and fine, but considering the scenery west of Denver I wonder why they didn't consider "Goldleaf" class in addition to Silverleaf. Gets you a bi-level glass dome car with meals in the lower level.
Richard
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
OK, now that Yesterday's "medical procedure starting with a C and ending with a Y" is in the history books, apparently with negative (favorable) results, I can start thinking about the STILL only possible Utah trip.
Even if what made Utah special to me, has been diminished with the passing of 52 years of time, I still want to go back once more on my terms - while I still can.
When I got kicked out of the Air Force Jan '69 or eight months before my DOS (RIF's after "Vietnamization"), I really felt "robbed". Aside from "what do I do for a job" until Summer School began (my Father took me on) in June '69 (needed that and two semesters to graduate - I would have asked for a three month "early out" to go to school which surely would have been granted)". I had places I wanted to visit during Spring '69; Zion, Arches, Grand Canyon - all reasonable trips from Hill AFB.
Now I have further learned from a report at another site that the schedule calls for "Train follows 2x a week schedule. Saturday Denver to Glenwood Springs. Sunday Glenwood Springs to Moab, end of train. Sunday afternoon Moab to Glenwood Springs with dinner. Monday Glenwood Springs to Denver. Repeat Tuesday, Wednesday then Wednesday Thursday. Over 10 weeks have 40 trips, 2 west then 2 east per week".
My schedule would call for a Saturday AM departure from Salt Lake after the UTSO concert Friday, a drive over the Wasatch's via Brighton and Heber City thence to Moab on US 191 - and that "obscene" $365 stay at an EXPRESS. Sunday calls for a drive along the Colorado to convening with the 70. Even if I were to "reverse route" over the 191, it probably wouldn't show up until the afternoon. In short, even if it's running, I don't think I'd see it.
Finally, this You Tube video shows a "fam run" for both the staff and the UP crews (appears Amtrak has nothing to do with it; wonder where they're getting their insurance?). It includes running through the tunnel and tying up at Potash, or well South of where they plan to alight their passengers at UT 313 (again how they can do that safely escapes me).
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
From Holiday Inn Exptess. Moab UT--
Well, I'm taking the road trip after all. Last evening was a Utah Symphony concert in SLC; now in Moab.
No sign of Rocky; also "blew right by" UT 313 where they supposedly board and alight passengers. It's 9.3 miles back up the highway, and all I have in mind is Dinner and a drive around what is their downtown so I can say "I've seen it".
But all told, while the Red Rocks are spectacular - and have been so since God put them here - this is a place where young and adventurous are drawn to. The number of off road vehicles abound. The "dress code" is hiking gear.
In short, for the affluent 65+ clientele RM has, it's a jumping off spot for tours to Arches.
I can only reiterate; "the Utah I knew" is, simply, gone.
