Unfortunately these two trains were discontinued before my interest in Amtrak. The only way I know of them is by reading the travelogues on TW and elsewhere. Can anyone give me the exacts on these trains- starting/end points, travel times, departure/arrivals, WHY they cancelled these routes, personal opinions.. etc?
From what I hear, it seems to me that Long distance Amtrak trains are VERY popular, selling out sleepers and so on. I don't understand why states who benefit from these trains would turn their backs on them back in was it.. 1996? Or earlier? I know there's a general lack of equiptment, but seriously, why cancel these routes when they fill important gaps, and when there are so few long distance trains????
Thanks! -Tim
Posted by Eric (Member # 674) on :
I believe that they cancelled these routes to save money on expenses. But, as usual, it only made less passengers travel, so it was only short-term savings. Amtrak realized in 2000 that adding routes was better business than cutting routes, and that's why we might have the LA-Vegas Talgo soon.
Posted by lakeshorelimited (Member # 576) on :
Hopefully Las Vegas service will begin soon, but I read they need to complete work on a 30-some odd mile second track to cut travel times between the two cities. It might still be a few years away, but there's hope! A key environmental impact study was completed showing the 2nd track would not adversly affect some species of tortise that lives in the region..
Posted by cajon (Member # 40) on :
Due to Caltrans widening of I-15 (Victorville-stateline) Amtrak will be starting a Vegas train in Nov. Same thing on NV side. It will use Surfliner equip. UP does not want Talgos used because they are "articulated" meaning if one wheel catches a hot box detector, whole train is out of service & has to be setout, passengers bussed, etc. Supposedly environmental issues (desert tortise) resolved but no work on double tracking Cima hill yet. So usual frieght delays can be expected for now.
Posted by lakeshorelimited (Member # 576) on :
Seriously? November? That's great! The sooner they start it up, the better.. work on track issues along the way and then improve sevice as you go. Any "official" start-up date? I heard this service was still months (if not years) away..
Posted by cajon (Member # 40) on :
No official date yet, just Nov. It will run Fri, Sat, Sun & Mon to start with for the weekend Vegas folks. Use 1 Surfliner set out & back. So look for 2nd Amfleet/Horizon set on Surfliner route.
Posted by Eric (Member # 674) on :
It probably wouldn't do much good to put a startup date on anything yet. The Downeaster had a startup date of 1994... enough said. Posted by Genesis803 (Member # 122) on :
What about the start up date for the Crescent Star? Seems everyone has forgotten about it. I've learned to never hold my breath when it comes to starting new trains. It's sad Amtrak has to go through so much bull to get a new train going.
Posted by barrydraper (Member # 737) on :
Maybe an answer to the original question? The Desert Wind originally operated between Los Angeles and Ogden. The Pioneer operated between Portland and Ogden. Both trains made connections with the California Zepher at Ogden, and had through cars to Chicago. Later, Amtrak changed the timetables to show both the Desert Wind and Pioneer as operating all the way to Chicago, but there was only one train that combined the cars of all three from Chicago to Ogden. After the California Zepher was rerouted on the Rio Grande the connecting point of the three trains was changed to Salt Lake City. As someone else said, the Pioneer and Desert Wind fell victim to Congressionally mandated cost cutting.
Posted by daniel3197 (Member # 27) on :
As I recall from the 1980s, the train that Amtrak NOW calls the California Zephyr was named the San Francisco Zephyr. Amtrak changed the name from "San Francisco Zephyr" to "California Zephyr" when Amtrak service was rerouted from the UP Wyoming Mainline to the D&RGW Colorado Rockies line. The D&RGW allowed Amtrak to permanently reroute on their railroad immediately after the DRGW Rio Grande Zephyr ended service in April of 1983. The other segments of the San Francisco Zephyr's run remained basically the same throughout the 30 + years of Amtrak. I hope this helps to clarify the name change from SAN FRANCISCO to CALIFORNIA Zephyr! --Daniel
quote:Originally posted by barrydraper: Maybe an answer to the original question? The Desert Wind originally operated between Los Angeles and Ogden. The Pioneer operated between Portland and Ogden. Both trains made connections with the California Zepher at Ogden, and had through cars to Chicago. Later, Amtrak changed the timetables to show both the Desert Wind and Pioneer as operating all the way to Chicago, but there was only one train that combined the cars of all three from Chicago to Ogden. After the California Zepher was rerouted on the Rio Grande the connecting point of the three trains was changed to Salt Lake City. As someone else said, the Pioneer and Desert Wind fell victim to Congressionally mandated cost cutting.
[This message has been edited by daniel3197 (edited 10-18-2001).]
Posted by barrydraper (Member # 737) on :
Thanks, Daniel! I had forgotten about the name change on #5 & 6, you are quite correct.
Posted by vline (Member # 1132) on :
Hi, when I was in your country in '95 I travelled on the then combined California Zephyr/The Pioneer/The Desert wind from Chicago to Las Vegas where I had an Amtrak Vacations overnight stay at Luxor Casino in Las Vegas Boulevard, commonly known as the "strip". The Pioneer section was dropped off at Denver & travelled north to just outside Cheyenne to a bus stop rail station & on to Seattle, a great trip if I do say so. I can't recall the name of the stop outside Cheyenne, unless I look at my old schedule which is at home right now. The Desert Wind section which comprised a sleeper, diner type cafe car & a couple of saloon cars travelled overnight to Las Vegas from Salt Lake City after being detached from the California Zephyr, arriving at about 8.30 AM, making a convenient connection for any one staying overnight in 'Vegas. It ran 3 days a week but was slow travelling through the Sierras into Los Angeles. I think it was due to arrive in Los Angeles at about 3.30 PM. Fortunately I have a large part of The Pioneer & The Desert Wind filmed from my video camera & the beautiful scenery I travelled through the day I travelled from Lss Vegas to Los Angeles the car was approx. 50% occupied. I hope I have helped you, Mike in Australia.
Posted by MattAtTrainWebDotCom (Member # 14) on :
I'm optimistic about the interim Vegas service, but it was supposed to start last month. Now it's this month. Again, remember the Downeaster! I'll believe it when I see it.
------------------ -Matthew J. Melzer matt@trainweb.com Trains on the Web ? TrainWeb.com !
Posted by MPALMER (Member # 125) on :
In the later years/months of its existence, the Desert Wind was cut back from daily to quad-weekly service. This cutback was recommended by a consulting firm (Mercer?) that Amtrak had hired to suggest cost-cutting moves.
Unfortunately the new quad-weekly schedule was difficult to work around (i.e. worthless for some quick weekend trips) and ridership dropped off even more than they had hoped.
I look forward to the return of LA-Las Vegas service (Auto Club now has drawn the UP line on their maps and identified it as "Amtrak"), but hope the service is faster than the 7 hours or so it used to take. The line is somewhat longer than parallel I-15.
And the earlier comment about freight traffic is still true, though UP now routes some of that traffic on the (SP) Sunset line.
As for the Pioneer -- I never rode it, but there is talk of re-establishing service from Portland to Boise, ID. I don't recall how far along that project is, or what its chances for success are.
Posted by Kent Loudon (Member # 902) on :
quote:Originally posted by vline: Hi, when I was in your country in '95 I travelled on the then combined California Zephyr/The Pioneer/The Desert wind from Chicago to Las Vegas where I had an Amtrak Vacations overnight stay at Luxor Casino in Las Vegas Boulevard, commonly known as the "strip". The Pioneer section was dropped off at Denver & travelled north to just outside Cheyenne to a bus stop rail station & on to Seattle, a great trip if I do say so. I can't recall the name of the stop outside Cheyenne, unless I look at my old schedule which is at home right now. The Desert Wind section which comprised a sleeper, diner type cafe car & a couple of saloon cars travelled overnight to Las Vegas from Salt Lake City after being detached from the California Zephyr, arriving at about 8.30 AM, making a convenient connection for any one staying overnight in 'Vegas. It ran 3 days a week but was slow travelling through the Sierras into Los Angeles. I think it was due to arrive in Los Angeles at about 3.30 PM. Fortunately I have a large part of The Pioneer & The Desert Wind filmed from my video camera & the beautiful scenery I travelled through the day I travelled from Lss Vegas to Los Angeles the car was approx. 50% occupied. I hope I have helped you, Mike in Australia.
Posted by Kent Loudon (Member # 902) on :
quote:Originally posted by vline: The Pioneer section was dropped off at Denver & travelled north to just outside Cheyenne to a bus stop rail station... I can't recall the name of the stop outside Cheyenne.
[I hope this works this time]
I believe it was called Borrie or Borie.
Posted by daniel3197 (Member # 27) on :
Yes that "amshack!" stop was at BORIE, Wyoming. This is just west of Cheyenne WY(about 10 miles??) where the UP line to Denver splits off of the main Overland Route. This was a STUPID move by Amtrak to place a passenger stop in such a remote area and not bus the passengers from Laramie WY or Greeley CO, instead. I hope this info helps! -- Daniel
quote:Originally posted by Kent Loudon:
I believe it was called Borrie or Borie.
Posted by skinsfan31 (Member # 910) on :
Borie, Wyoming. Why Amtrak would not use the beautiful UP station in Cheyenne is beyond me, I think its one of the most incredible stations I've ever seen.
