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I recently took Amtrak’s Wolverine between Chicago and Detroit to connect to VIA at Windsor and it got me thinking....the Chicago<>Detroit corridor (280 miles) should be a prime candidate for frequent service but still only sees 6 trains a day (3 each way)....and even with the extensive track work.....schedules are about 5hr 15 min.
VIA has a similar 250 mile route between Toronto (pop 6.4 million) and Ottawa (pop 1.3 million)....but effective today there’s now 20 trains per day (10 each way). The fastest schedules are about 4hr 15 min and all trains have a Business Class Car offering a ‘First Class’ type product with a Hot Meal, Beer and Wine service and Station Lounge access.
Passengers are up 40% in three years between Toronto and Ottawa..... even with 3 airlines offering a shuttle frequency and one of those airlines....’Porter” flies from Toronto’s downtown airport....1 mile from Union Station.
(And BTW...that Detroit to Windsor connection was no problem at all. I took a taxi from Amtrak to a Windsor Transit bus stop that loops through downtown Detroit every half-hour....then through the tunnel and onto the VIA Station....easy!)
Moderator Member # 2933
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I agree there are now 20 trains a day between Ottawa and Toronto, but they are half full at best. Some people on this forum know that I live along the Ottawa-Toronto route, have for years and I see the same consists every day. A lead unit pulling four cars, the very odd time only three cars, and on super rare occasions I have seen up to seven cars but that was during major holiday seasons when the weather shut down other forms of transportation.
If Via's ridership is up forty percent the past three years you'd think they'd be adding another car or two to accommodate these extra passengers.
I believe Via is padding their ridership numbers to substantiate the NEED to the Federal Gov't, of a high speed rail route between Quebec City and Windsor Ont.
If the government were to use common sense they would see the NEED was really to redirect those billions of dollars towards building a safe, reliable route to Churchill Man. The three times weekly train was suspended indefinitely because of flooding damage to the tracks early in the year.
ghCBNS Member # 3093
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Churchill certainly needs their train and service should be restored.....but you spend the money where people are actually riding trains....and that is in the corridor. And I don't know what Ottawa-Toronto trains you've been on lately......but the ones I have.....they've been more than half full and do sell-out on weekends,
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Actually I haven't been on any Ottawa-Toronto trains in years. No desire to go to Toronto, way too busy for my liking.
I live alongside the old CP B&O line and I watch those daily Ottawa to Toronto trains from my window. Now that it's darker in the mornings the first few trains go by in darkness, before the sunrise. Three cars in total darkness while the lead car has lights. During the day, depending what time of the day, the cars appear to be anywhere from nearly empty to three quarters occupied.
I have tried to find ridership summaries for different sub-routes, ie Ottawa to Smiths Falls or Brockville to Belleville but cannot locate the info on the Via site. All I seem to find are total ridership miles, nothing is broken down into actual riders who rode the train from point A to point B.
I concur with your statement on spending money where people are riding trains, but only to the point of tip-top maintenance of the trains and rails and safety aspects, especially at rail crossings.
We both know that Via is heavily subsidized, into the hundreds of millions a year, I just don't want to have to subsidize them into the billions, not for a few riders who feel entitled to high speed rail.
ghCBNS Member # 3093
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quote:Originally posted by Moderator: Actually I haven't been on any Ottawa-Toronto trains in years. No desire to go to Toronto, way too busy for my liking.
Suggest you give the train a try then....maybe a round-trip to Kingston so you don't have to experience 'busy' Toronto. You'll see the trains are running with a lot more passengers than 'nearly empty'. Stand in those long lines prior to boarding in Ottawa especially on a Friday or Sunday!
Moderator Member # 2933
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Years ago when I lived in Toronto, sans children, it was a wonderful exciting city to live in and I know it still is, but, at this point in my life, I have no desire for that hustle and bustle.
I would not take a round trip to Kingston just to see those long lines, I'll take your word for it and I do understand that weekend travel is much busier compared to the week days, I see those trains too, I'm sure it's the same anywhere.
I would still like to see those actual passenger numbers broken down in segments along the corridor to make up my mind as to the need for high speed rail
ghCBNS Member # 3093
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quote:Originally posted by Moderator: I would not take a round trip to Kingston just to see those long lines
Certainly not suggesting you ride the train to see those long lines but why not just go for the ride? If Kingston is not to your liking.......here's a route I like taking: Ottawa-Brockville-Dorval. Hang around the platform there for a couple of hours (lots of action)....... then return Dorval-Ottawa.
Don't know what traffic numbers are per segment but the news article (linked above)...says it's up 40% so the passengers must be there to support 20 trains/day. And we're not talking High Speed Rail here but I'm sure traffic would soar if was ever introduced. Right now at a travel time of a little over 4 hrs.....it quite competitive with flying. VIA even seams to do well against Porter which flies out of Billy Bishop.....right next to Union Station.
Moderator Member # 2933
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I would not take a train ride just to hang around a platform for a couple of hours. Not a foamer.
I don't ride as often as I used to, but when I do it is usually an overnight trip, my last trip was to LaPlata three years ago. I'm probably due.
Anyway, I do not believe the "figures" in the linked article. Maybe when I have more time I'll pay the $5.00 and go through the access to information process.
Moving this topic to the Canada forum
ghCBNS Member # 3093
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To ‘take my word for it’....or ‘not believe the "figures" in the linked article’....is certainly your prerogative. But then you go on to provide only anecdotal evidence yourself that few ride the trains.
Don't understand way you wouldn't believe the figures in the article? Why would VIA add 6 trains over the 3 year period between Ottawa and Toronto if people weren't riding??
Suggest you do take a train ride even if you don’t ‘foam'. I do....and I guess you can say it’s anecdotal too.... but at least I'm riding and do see the number of passengers on a regular basis.
Have you been to the Ottawa Station lately and seen the construction underway to add highlevel platforms for the Ottawa<>Toronto trains as well as allow for an increase in Ottawa<>Montreal trains with some now running through to Quebec City.
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First; Laurie, you had me fooled. I thought you were a relative, family or by marriage, of one of the founders of this site and resided in Orange County CA.
And like you, I'm hardly as "avid" as are some around here. My last "joyride" was during 2010; a more likely, but still unlikely, would be to fly some United flights totaling 925 miles to qualify for their Premier standing during 2018 (unless they make a year end special offer, you can't "buy" your way in; you must "fly" your way in). Of course, around here the suggestion would be made to take a 900 mile rail trip, e.g. CHI-DEN, NOL, or NYP one way and fly back, but for all the times I've said around here "I don't chase points", that would be mighty hypocritical of me.
But to the point. I really do not think considering the vast SMSA differences between the Dominion's largest and its capital city is a fair comparison. Here we are addressing the US's third and soon to be fourth largest city, a college belt comprising a world class university, several perfectly good State regionals, and a host of small private colleges, and a "reinventing" Rust Belt city. Detroit is an intermediate station on the route and not even the largest, which is Ann Arbor.
"Big Things" are promised for the route just as they have been for Chi-StL, but to date, more promise than substance. An order for cars to be used on each route is simply "dead". More often than not, there is a "busteetoot" between Chi and Stl. On the Chi-Det route, during trackwork frequency is effectively reduced to "two a day" as two trains "chase markers" to keep a daylight work area open.
I would have occasion to ride the Chi-Det Wolverine route, as I like to attend concerts in both Detroit and Ann Arbor. But I'm sorry, the service is so unreliable and Business Class so limited, that Red Lex and I-94 is the better option - even though fully allocated such costs far more.
A fairer comparison is NY-Wash, and VIA's strongest Corridor is not even in the ballpark.
Finally, if VIA were mandated to be as transparent as Amtrak, "You the People" would be able to decide the "value of VIA", but somehow if that transparency were prevalent, I think the whole outfit would be on the chopping block.
ghCBNS Member # 3093
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quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: A fairer comparison is NY-Wash, and VIA's strongest Corridor is not even in the ballpark.
Finally, if VIA were mandated to be as transparent as Amtrak, "You the People" would be able to decide the "value of VIA", but somehow if that transparency were prevalent, I think the whole outfit would be on the chopping block.
There is no comparison between the NEC and VIA’s corridor (There's a few good size towns....and a lot of cows in those fields between Toronto-Ottawa & Montreal!!)....but on a per capita basis.....VIA does quite well and carries slightly more passengers per year than does Amtrak. (Canada’s population is a little over 1/10th that of the United States)
In 2016
VIA: 3.97 million passengers (Canada’s population: 36 million)
Amtrak: 31 million passengers (US population: 323 million)
Moderator Member # 2933
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No, I haven't been to the Ottawa Station lately, but I do remember visiting it shortly after it opened. My thoughts ran along the line of "why didn't they finish it before opening it?" I realize now that it was the forward thinking style of the time, and was surprised to read in the link you provided that it has been designated a heritage building and one of the top 500 buildings produced in Canada. Wow. You don't happen to know what the ranking is for the station, do you?
Personally, I was sorry to see them close the old downtown Union Station. As a youngster I always imagined it was a castle, and I have such fond memories of the train adventures entered upon as our train left the station.
Moderator Member # 2933
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Mr. Norman
I visited the Fullerton Train Station in Orange County many times when the TrainWeb office was on the second floor, and Ray Burns was my brother.
ghCBNS Member # 3093
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quote:Originally posted by Moderator: My thoughts ran along the line of "why didn't they finish it before opening it?" I realize now that it was the forward thinking style of the time, and was surprised to read in the link you provided that it has been designated a heritage building and one of the top 500 buildings produced in Canada. Wow. You don't happen to know what the ranking is for the station, do you?
Don’t know its ranking....but the modern Ottawa Station won numerous Architectural Awards when it opened in 1966 for its massive open trussed roof “reminiscent of an old train shed” and precast elements….and was now much more convenient to reach for a lot of residents with its own freeway interchange and large parking areas.
The federal government was decentralizing and not everyone worked downtown anymore with new office complexes being built at Tunney’s Pasture, Confederation Heights etc.
The new station eventually had its own ‘station’ along the bus ‘Transitway’....which next year reopens as a full Light Rail System crossing the city including a downtown subway.
The old dowager of a Union Station downtown became a Federal Conference Centre and once again is being repurposed as the Senate Chamber while that in the Centre Block on Parliament Hill is being renovated over the next few years.
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Thanks for the pictures, ghCBNS, I had not seen those ones before. Of course my recollections of the area are post Confederation Square and the Cenotaph
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