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Author Topic: The Dumbing Down of Model Railroads
Konstantin
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I am writing this in response to an article recently published in Model Railroader Magazine. The article was written by Mike Fischer and was in “One Reader’s Opinion.” it was titled “How To Be a Show-off.”

The article stated various ideas about how to show-off model railroads during open houses and train shows. I very much disagree with many of Mr. Fischer’s opinions. To be fair, Mr. Fischer did provide some good ideas for train shows, and his article was written quite well. I am afraid that Mr. Fischer is “dumbing down” the hobby of model railroading. He advocates running colorful trains, instead of realistic looking ones. He also advises against realistic operations such as his example of arranging a triple meet. He included several other comments like these as well. I see this as an insult to model railroading. Mr. Fischer is lowering the standards of the hobby in order to appeal to the general public.

I see many things in this country being dumbed down to the average people. I am sorry to see this country losing the quality it once had. Here, I will present a few examples. As a high school teacher, I have seen the quality of work being dumbed down for a long time. In the 1980’s to the present, there has been a move to integrate many special education students into the regular classrooms. The idea is that they will do the same work as the regular students, with some modifications. In actuality, the quality of entire schools are being dumbed down to help these lower level students succeed. Disney in another example of dumbing down. As soon as Michael Eisner took over as CEO, Disney was no longer concerned with producing quality movies and theme park attractions that took intelligence and thought to understand. Now Disney caters to the average general public, and has, as a result dumbed down considerably, and is producing junk. CNN news is stooping lower and lower in its attempt to appeal to the general public. What started as a quality news network is now entertainment news for the average or below average population. Newpapers have been dumbed down for a while. Try reading some newspaper articles published in the early 1900’s. They were designed for the educated, intelligent people to read. Now they have been dumbed down to the point that many elementary students can read them and understand them well.

I do not want to see my hobby be dumbed down to the general public. Each year, a local park in the Phoenix area where I live presents “Railfair.” It started out as a weekend when railroading enthusiasts meet and run trains, discuss trains, and learn about railroading in general. In the past several years, it has followed the way that Mr. Fischer suggests in his article. It has been dumbed down to the point that serious model railroaders rarely attend. Most of the people in attendance now are small children who like to watch the choo-choo go around and around. I will not bow down to operating a colorful train to make them happy. I do not want to attract the general public. I want to attract people interested in real model railroading.

If you are only interested in seeing a colorful choo-choo go around and around, then please find a different hobby. If you are interested in using timetables, waybills, weathering a freight car, creating realistic scenery, or any number of other things related to quality model railroading, then I welcome you to the hobby.

I would like to know some of your opinions.
Thank you


------------------
Elias Valley Railroad (N-scale)
www.geocities.com/evrr


Posts: 446 | From: Phoenix, Arizona | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
jebradley
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"Konstantin" appears to exemplify what we might charitably call a "model railroad snob". Apparently he does not subscribe to the slogan on the engineer hats which used to appear on covers of "Model Railroader" Magazine years ago. That's just what model railroading is supposed to be - FUN! That certainly includes making a little kid happy; apparently that's too much for Konstantin. The trick for us (and I've been a rail enthusiast since about 1941 - age 4 - and an HO modeler since 1955) is to do both; to amuse the 'general public' AND to follow a hobby 'seriously'. I think it CAN be done. Just takes a little thought coupled with some tolerance; this latter is in short supply right now!
Jim Bradley National Director Hawk Mountain Chapter NRHS.

Posts: 57 | From: Allentown, PA, USA | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
barrydraper
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I think it all depends on what you want from your layout. As long as you are having fun whatever you do is fine. But, the term "Model Railroad" implies that the layout is intended to be a "model" of a prototype railroad. We've all heard of computer 'models' of weather, we've all seen 'model' cars, airplanes, and ships. A 'model' train can be just the locomotives and cars, but a 'model railroad' implies a 'model' of the whole thing, including track, structures, signals, and operations. Now, if someone wants to "play with his toy trains" and "show them off", that's fine, I have no problem with that. Just don't call that a "Model Railroad".
Posts: 35 | From: Alhambra, CA USA | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
brakie
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Hi Guys,Allow me to throw in my 2 cents worth.Over the years that I been in this
hobby I have found that most non-rail public
wants to see trains being run,yards being
worked,meets between trains,locomotives being turn on turntables,and they also want
to see model trains.How ever that get a kick
out of seeing non-prototype trains.I too get
a smile out of things like that,after all model rail roading is suppose to be fun.That
is not "dumbing down the hobby" but,having
some fun.As far as"serious" modelers not
attending these shows and open houses, more
the pity. I do not know any serious modelers
in my area that would not go to these shows
and open houses,as we all injoy a laugh or
two.This hobby has room for the serious and
non-serious modeler.Now for the record I am
very serious about the hobby,but,I always
remember"Modeling RailRoading is fun" That
is the bottom line after all that's said and
done.

Posts: 15 | From: bucyrus ohio usa | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
lynn
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I have to agree to disagree. In this, it saeems like everybody is right. How old to start railroading? 6, 10, 15, 29? Would a 6year old appreciate weathered cars?, buildings? scenery? Or would he like to see something flashy? Primary, is to get their attention, then as they can progress, they will tire of round and round, THEN, start branching out.I run DC, no special road, and to over-simplify, an Amtrak loco pulling a freight. I don't count rivets, don't know color schemes, don't run schedules or timetables, don't use DCC, etc.,etc.,etc. However, I think they ALL have their place in model railroading and there is no right or wrong. If we don't get kids interest to begin with, this will be a dead end hobby.

OK, I've had my say, and most importantly, if you don't have fun doing it your way, do it different or give it up!!!

Lynn


Posts: 24 | From: whitehouse, tx USA | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
brakie
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Lynn,You are right about getting kids into the hobby,I will add not only kids but,adults as well.As I stated there is room for all in this hobby.The way one pursues this hobby is up to them,this should be a hobby that can be enjoyed by all,in any manner they choose.As far as you pulling a freight train with a Amtak engine you're a little late! NorkforkSouthern has beat you to it! so, enjoy the hobby and have fun doing it.
Posts: 15 | From: bucyrus ohio usa | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
thirdrail
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I find a complaint from a teacher about "dumbing down" amusing. Anyone familiar with dealing with the public should be aware that you tailor your message to the audience. I take my 2 by 4 N scale model railroad to two train shows a year, in Tallahassee, FL, and Dothan, AL. I operate a train mixed between some of my scratchbuilt cars and brightly colored reefers and at least one "silver" tank car. These ARE all prototype. I can tell you that the scratchbuilt cars are noticed by maybe one person out of one hundred. The children are more attracted to the brightly colored cars and trying to see the train in the tunnel. As a modeler, I want to convert casual onlookers to the hobby by attracting their children. Why? I'm selfish, I want as many people to become model railroaders as possible, so the selection of models available to me is greater. I figure "the bigger the market, the bigger the selection".
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Konstantin
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Thank you for all of your responses and opinions. I value your opinions even if they differ from mine.

I have nothing against attracting children and beginners to the hobby. I just think that we should not forget the quality aspects of the hobby as well.

Thirdrail, you have helped to prove my point. It is time that we quit trying to appeal to the masses and focus on the small amount of people more interested in the better qualities of model railroading. The problem is, we are creating the audience of small children and people with little interest in the hobby. People with higher levels of thinking in the hobby are beginning to quit coming to the shows, since the shows focus too much on the lower level audiences. We need to come back to when we created more train shows and other public performances for the more serious railroader.

Actually, a good teacher would never tailor his teaching to his audience. That would result in exactly what I am talking about here, dumbing down the classroom. A good teacher tailors his teaching to a level a little higher than his class.

------------------
Elias Valley Railroad (N-scale) www.geocities.com/evrr


[This message has been edited by Konstantin (edited 11-01-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Konstantin (edited 11-01-2001).]


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brakie
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Konstantin:Not to be a smarty or any thing like that,But where to you get your information from? I live in Ohio and the train shows seem to be growing in attendance not with the general public as a whole but mostly modelers. Yes,the general public does show up in great numbers,and I have notice most of the public attendees is over 30.So I was wondering where you got your information or does this vary from state to state?I was just wondering.
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brakie
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Konstantin:Not to be a smarty or any thing like that,But where to you get your information from? I live in Ohio and the train shows seem to be growing in attendance not with the general public as a whole but mostly modelers. Yes,the general public does show up in great numbers,and I have notice most of the public attendees is over 30.So I was wondering where you got your information or does this vary from state to state?I was just wondering.
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brakie
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Oops! soory about the second post on my question.I hit the wrong key
Posts: 15 | From: bucyrus ohio usa | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
christopher.d
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G'day from Down Under
I have been in the hobby since before I could walk, my Old Man even ran a model railway shop here in Aust, and the one type of modeller that seems to suck all the fun out of the hobby are the Rivet counter.
We have lots of Railway exibitions here and they offer a wide range of layouts and running styles(the way it should be)
The hobby should be enjoyed and should attract those kids to the fold. Afterall it's how most of us started and they are the future great modellers in this game.
So stop counting the Rivits and remeber how to take joy from any train, running on any layout, afterall it fun, pure as simple

Chris
Melbourne Australia


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Konstantin
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Brakie, I will attempt to anser your question. I live in Phoenix, Arizona. We have one good train show, The Great American Train Show (most people call it GATS). Unfortunately I was not able to attend this year. It was held this past weekend. I was in Las Vegas playing trombone. That is also why it took me a while to answer your question. I know of no other true model railroad show in this area. The McCormick Railroad Park Railfair is the one I mentioned above. It has deteriorated from a quality rairoad gathering into a play time for children with a railroad theme. There are still a few serious railroaders there, but they are rare. Adobe Mountain Park also has some railroad gatherings, but they seem about the same as McCormick Railroad Park. I do not know of any other shows around this area. Maybe there are some, but I do not know of any.

------------------
Elias Valley Railroad (N-scale)
www.geocities.com/evrr


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brakie
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Konstantin:I see now.Then you are correct in stating what you said about modelers not showing up at the show.I would not attend a show like that myself.I have nothing against kids,I have 3 grand kids,and love them dearly.It is sad that the show has went down hill to such a state.The last GATS show that I attended in Columbus(OH),wasn't that bad,still yet,alot of kids was running around with-out adult supervision.Perhaps the parents wanted a free baby sitter,while they shop.AS a rule most train shows that I have attended as I stated,has been adults over 30 years old,I would still like to see younger people attend these shows so the hobby can grow.
Posts: 15 | From: bucyrus ohio usa | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Konstantin
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Brakie, I agree with you, and I hope you are beginning to see my point. I am not against kids enjoying railroading, and I also hope that some become interested in it and become serious railroaders. I am just tired of the "real" model railroaders almost being ignored now.

Thank you for showing an interest in my posts here.

------------------
Elias Valley Railroad (N-scale)
www.geocities.com/evrr


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brakie
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Konstantin:I to have seen this trend at some of the smaller train shows that I have attended.Sadly,I once saw this at a local NMRA division meet.You see,they had a model contest,and this one guy spent alot of time super detailing a athearn GP38-2 and you could see the man put alot of work into it.It was so real to life that you could almost smell the diesel fumes.Did he win? NO! you know what won? A HANDCAR!!! this hand car was built from a kit all he did was add small detail parts. The top 3 winners went to 2nd place,a super detail farm house 3rd place went to a MDC Shay with detail,The GP38-2 didn't even finish in the top 5! Needless to say there was alot of people up set over this.so, yes I am begining to see a trend to slight the real modeler.
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lynn
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Konstantin I've been reading over all the above posts again and I have come to this conclusion: Ahem! You started this thread and got to the depot on one train, on one track. Everybody else is a different train, different track. The crux is, we all got to the same point but from different directions. There is dumbing down, we all agree. There needs to be dumbing down for kids and/or newbees. We all conclude that it takes all kinds of approaches, and NONE should be ranked/rated above or below another. There is a place for detailists, DCC, switching lines, paperwork-meets, etc. I am none of the above, but they are as important to the hobby as the wood Brio trains, or the colorful choo-choos. Then there are guys like me that would put purist in a faint by putting a steamer and a diesel in tandem, or a donkey switcher pulling passenger cars. I'm a mongrel enthusiast. I do whatever frosts my cookies if I have fun doing it. Everybody is the same, and everybody is different. On this thread, we've been chasing the same ball; just kicking it in odd directions.


Lynn


Posts: 24 | From: whitehouse, tx USA | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
caboosehop
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I have not long got into the computer using biusiness and have just read the above topics. I am a founder member of a group here in Riverton New Zealand that puts on a model show every two years.On the railroad side of the show, we run all sorts of trains. From the cheap trainsets from the Warehouse and the likes right up to the layout that are built and operated to fit a prototype or era. We find that this gives the new entrants to the hobby an idea what can be achieved and gets the youger generation off the ground and into the hobby.We had one youg lad put on a display at our show one year. The had a layout on a 6ftx4ft board with only basic scenery made out of shoeboxes and such like, his trains were typical department store cheap sets, but the look on his face when people would stop and ask him about his layout was out of this world. So as far as I can see it does not whether the trains are expensive or cheap, colourful or weather its how much fun you get out of it. After all its your layout to do and run what you want. By the way the lad with the layout, he was just 6 years old, and we gave him the chance he needed Thank you for bearing with me.


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lynn
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Cabooseshop, you have just made my day. That 6 year old kid is one of the primary reasons I'm in this hobby. I really enjoy getting the kids TO DO. I wouldn't have cared if he had glue and sticks all over the place, I would have been as proud for him as he was himself. Glad to hear from you

Lynn


Posts: 24 | From: whitehouse, tx USA | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mr. Toy
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My two pence:

I agree that everyone is right, depending on their priorities. I think a good show would offer displays with diverse levels of sophistication. Simple displays to show how to get started, and sophisticated displays to show what is possible. Having only the latter can be intimidating for a novice. Having only the former is uninspiring.

I am a newcomer to this, having bought my first train set (as an adult) just one year ago. It was a basic Life-Like set with two freight trains. I've since added track, two Athearn locomotives and two different sets of passenger cars. The latter because my main interest is in train travel, not freight.

I've had all kinds of fun running my trains under the Christmas tree, around the house, and now on a shelf around the upper perimeter of a room.

I truly admire the level of sophictication the serious model railroaders have developed. Maybe someday I will want to get into it to a similar degree, maybe not.
However, I think of my trains as toys, not small versions of the real thing. For now I like colorful trains, so I have no interest in weathering my rolling stock.

Someday, when I can make the space (or get a bigger house), I want to build a "Toyland" layout using toys for scenery. Things like Lego houses, erector set bridges, tinker toy windmills, candy cane forests, alphabet block retaining walls, etc. I expect I'll use traditional landscaping materials to tie it all together into something resembling Toontown. I expect I will incorporate a small switch yard and sidings so I can try out some of the more sophisticated maneuvers, lest I get tired of having the trains just go round and round.

------------------
Trust God, love your neighbor, and never mistake opinion for truth.
-Mr. Toy

The Del Monte Club Car


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brakie
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Mr.Toy.You are correct.even with our supped up models they still boil down to adult toys that we love to play with.I have been in this hobby for 50 years and still enjoy this hobby and the many ways it can be persued,there is no right way or no wrong way to enjoy this hobby.What I like the best? even after 50 years it still holds the joy I had when I frist started.
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mrlithian
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I generally agree with the focus of your original post, konstantin -- and with most of the other opinions here.

I think we'll all agree it's important that we MUST continue to attract the young people to our hobby -- for without them, the hobby will eventually wither, as lynn points out. They have so many other things to grab their attention nowadays ... when I was a kid, there was no TV, no hand-held video games, no Playstation -- so, model (or at that age, "toy") trains occupied a lot of my time and there was little to distract me. Not so today.

Unfortunately, I think we sometimes HAVE to bite our tongues and cater to the young just to get them attracted them to the hobby -- and that often means "dumbing down" the hobby to appeal to them. Bright colors, lots and lots of trains, the trains coming out of tunnels, and loud sound effects are part of that. I know, it's often illogical to a a real aficionado and it doesn't appeal to me either at this age -- but once we get their interest and they see how much FUN it can be (that's when we "hook em"), THEN we can move them on the more intelligent and thoughtful levels of the hobby -- as konstantin mentions in his post.

I guess I'm trying to say I feel strongly both ways -- we need the kids to keep the hobby growing, and we need to ensure they understand what "model railroading" can offer at all levels.

My next GATS show starts on Dec 15 (Tampa) and I can't wait! And I hope I see LOTS of little kids there, eyes wide, fascinated by the locomotives pulling the cars. Those kids truly ARE our future, and there's room in the hobby for all of us -- young kids and old kids alike.


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rustach
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I don't agree with many of the suggestions in the Model Railroader article. People are at a show because they are interested in model railroading in one form or another. Doing something out of character with your own model railroad would not be consistent with the expectations of the viewing modeler or public.

The two or more model railroad shows I participate in each year have such a wide range of scales and enthusiasts that everyone's tastes and interests seem to be covered. We usually have everything from G to Z, tin plate to super detailed. I believe many of us see value, interest, and fun in all of these, maybe not for yourself but certainly for others.

Are we 'dumbing down' the hobby by including such a wide range of scales, skills, and topics? I certainly don't think so. In fact, I believe we're showing that model railroading has incredible depth and breadth to accomodate almost anyone's interests.

Ron


Posts: 4 | From: El Segundo, CA | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

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