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The latest Model Railroader Magazine had a picture showing an older train with white flags. I started trying to find out about "markers" on trains.
The definition of a train in one book I have is this: "An engine, or more than one engine coupled, with or without cars, displaying markers."
Do trains still display markers, or is that a thing of the past?
Do any of you have a list of what marker colors (flags or lights) were used and what each meant?
[This message has been edited by Konstantin (edited 10-14-2001).]
Steve Dunham Member # 924
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I have always heard the two red lights on the back of a passenger train called "markers." When I was a kid in the 1960s, I believe that some coaches, possibly on the Jersey Central, had hooks on which red lanterns were hung, thus any car could be at the end of the train and carry the marker lights.
Newer passenger cars have two red lights built into the end.
------------------ Steve Dunham Literalman@aol.com http://www.stevedunham.50megs.com/
barrydraper Member # 737
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Like many railfans, you are confusing 'markers' and 'class lights' (or flags, the daytime equlivant). 'Markers' are red lights or flags hung on the rear of a train. They are still used, although todays End of Train Device has a sensor and only displays a flashing light after dark. The white flags you saw were displayed on the front of the train. Called signals, flags, or class lights, they are no longer used in the United States. They could be white or green. Trains used to operate by a timetable which listed trains by number and gave them the right to operate based on times. A scheduled train carried no class lights (or at least had them dark). White class lights signified an extra train, operating by train order and not listed in the timetable. When a railroad had heavy traffic they would operate scheduled trains in multiple sections, and all but the last section would carry green class lights to signify that another train on the same schedule was following.
Konstantin Member # 18
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Thank you for the clarification.
But when I look up the word "Markers" in a railroad dictionary, it says:
"They include the headlight on the front end, properly colored flags, and small lamps that are set on the front of the locomotive and on the rear end of the last car of the train. The color of both the flags and the lamps designates the class of train that is carrying them."
------------------ Elias Valley Railroad (N-scale) www.geocities.com/evrr
barrydraper Member # 737
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Try looking up "marker" in a railroad rule book dating to before 1970. You will find a definition closer to what I gave above. To the operating crews of a railroad "marker" had a very specific meaning. It's like the argument about "turnout" vs. "switch". The NMRA and Model Railroader Magazine tell you to use "turnout" so trackwork is not confused with electrical. But, tell a crew member working for a prototype railroad you are going to "throw a turnout", and they will just laugh! They throw switches, but "turnout" is the whole assembly, including the frog, and you'd need a crane to throw one. I'll post the definition of "marker" from my 1952 ATSF rule book tomorrow.
Konstantin Member # 18
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Barrydraper, I am beginning to understand. I would appreciate seeing your definition.
I also enjoyed your story about turnouts versus switches. I have always called them "turnouts", but the last time I rode an Amtrak train, I heard the conductor call it a switch. I guess "turnout" is more of a model railroad word than a real railroad word.
------------------ Elias Valley Railroad (N-scale) www.geocities.com/evrr
barrydraper Member # 737
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The word "turnout" is used by the prototype, but only to refer to either the entire assembly, what we modelers would buy at the hobby store, or to refer to proceeding on the diverging route. I was confused for a long time by speed restrictions that read "xx mph through the turnout", until I understood that that only applied when the switch was lined for the curved route. Now the promised selected quotes from some rulebooks, even though they are a bit different than I remembered. I don't have time to type the entire rule, so I will quote only the pertinent parts. From the Santa Fe Rulebook, dated 1953, fourth section titled "Signals". Rule 19. The following signals will be displayed to the rear of every train, as markers, to indicate the end of the train: (a) By day, marker lamps not lighted. (b) By night, marker lamps lighted, displaying red to the rear and yellow to the front and side. Several more sections follow specifying when one or both markers were to be turned to display yellow to the rear when the train was clear of the main. Rule 19A. On arrival at terminal or tie-up point, classification signals and markers must not be removed until train has stopped on the designated track or is delivered to yardmen. Rule 20. All sections, except the last, will display two green flags, and, in addition, two green lights by night on the front of the engine. Rule 21. Extra trains will display two white lights by day and by night on the front of the engine.
I was surprised by the lack of white flags in Rule 21.
Now from the Norfolk and Western Rulebook, dated 1967. Heading "Markers", Rule 19. To indicate the rear of trains the following signals will be displayed to the rear, unless otherwise provided: By DAY and NIGHT -- Lighted red electric marker lights on engines and cars so equipped, or reflectorized markers displaying red to the rear. Heading "Classification Signals" Rule 20. All sections except the last will display two green flags or two green lights on the front of the engine. Rule 21. Unless otherwise provided, extra trains will display two white flags or two white lights on the front of the engine. Rule 21(a). On two or more tracks, or where CTC is in service, the display of white flags or white lights will not be required on extra trains, except on passenger extras.
Understand that Timetable authority ended with the GCOR and NORAC (the Rulebooks currently in effect) and the only part of all this now in effect are certain requirements for the display of markers.
Konstantin Member # 18
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Thank you Barrydraper. I see that you have spent a lot of effort to explain things fully. I appreciate all the work you have done and the information provided.
------------------ Elias Valley Railroad (N-scale) www.geocities.com/evrr
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