That's what really irks me. Americans lose jobs and foreigners get slave wages in return. No one benefits except corporate brass.

[This message has been edited by gct29 (edited 08-24-2002).]
 

Certainly we can cite exceptions to the principle that being a "socially responsible" consumer and informing the target has any effect. Nevertheless - divestiture helped bring down apartheid, non-union lettuce and grape strikes benefitted farmworkers, the Vietnam War protests saved lives (mine, for example). So I think that acting and informing are useful toold for changing the system.

It is easy to point out inconsistencies - I haven't had a TV in my home in 15 years, or eaten a Nestle candy bar or product in close to 35 years (look up Nestle Boycott), nor purchased products made of wood from the rainforests, etc etc etc. But I eat meat and I drive a car which uses fossil fuels. I'm imperfect. That does not negate efforts I make to change the systems I think need changing. I don't buy Lionel (three rails? Please..) but I CAN certainly go to the train store i frequent and encourage them to fill that space with other lines and tell Lionel the reason.

Blows against the empire... Or should that be (plese excuse the pun): railing against the empire.

mitusa, mcdoniel and gct29: I hope to see y'all on the picket line at Lionel.

Ira

 

Thank you for your words of reason in what could easily become a contentious topic. Though we all seem to be on the same page here (albeit perhaps on different paragraphs of that page), I particularly agree with your point about inconsistencies, and will go on to say that it's a pity that one has to be absoloutist to be considered an advocate for anything.

But back to topic: what in the world could we write on our picket sings without looking ridiculous?
 

or: Does Kathy Lee Work for Lionel?

But lest a sense of humor not be prsent among the righteous, I'd settle for Greed Kills, Get On Track with Human Rights, etc etc.

mitusa: I do think words like "slave" and "master" and other labels serve to incite rather than describe behavior and unacceptable circumstances/facts of their lives. Information rather than labels gives people an opportunity to investigate and decide rather than be per(dis)suaded by rhetoric. I am not saying I agree with the methods of Lionel or multinational coporations. I hope that that is clear from the above post and others wherein I address capitalism and various other hierarchies which I find problematic.

I am curious what modelers think about this issue... We all pick our battles.
 

I have no way of knowing if TVs or other products are made by prisoners, poor working folk, or whatever. I have to rely on other people who travel over there to investigate, and I believe many of those investigators already have a bias against the system.

A direct appeal to the Lionel owners might help, but I would not expect anything to change unless world events made the area too unstable to continue manufacturing over there. Lionel had its products made in Mexico for a few years (in the 70s or 80s) but the quality declined so Lionel pulled out of there.
 

Look at all the container trains on the rails...carrying imports. Look at how the US automakers have lost market share to foreign makes. Sure the US-made 3/4-ton pickups and semis may be best from a quality standpoint, but what about coupes or sedans? Car dealers have adapted by selling imports now. Even cars assembled in the US with a US-based brand names (i.e. Ford, Dodge) have some quantity of foreign components.

The US has become a 'service' economy, and even some of that gets exported (Dell Computer customer service is in India)

You are facing a tough battle
 

If the products are built in China, but you don't know by who, I would hold back until you know for sure. Just because China's government is communist does not mean all of the people are (any more than all US residents are politically lined up with our government).

I agree slavery is wrong, but not all 'cheap labor' is slavery.
 

Unfortunately there is no such thing as made in USA any more. The same can probably be said about made in Japan. Parts are made all over the world, today's electronic parts are made in Malaysia, Korea, and who else knows where. The parts may say they are made in one country, but in fact they may be made somewhere else. What are you going to do to stop this? Are you going to have the Government do this? Where is the Gov't going to get all the manpower and money to do this? I'll bet they will have to raise taxes, OH NO, we can't have that!

So let's get back to trains. If you boycott things not made in the USA, well you might as well do the following:

Boycott all things shipped on BNSF since some of their locomotives have been made by cheap labor in the environmental wasteland of Mexico.

Boycott GM because some of their products are also made in Mexico and Canada too. Let's not forget NAFTA!

Don't buy any Atlas locomotives, because they are made in China. The same applies to some other manufacturers like Proto 2k.

Go in your closet and through out about 3/4 of your clothes and shoes because they are probably made in some 3rd world country somewhere. More American jobs lost.

Quit driving your car, because it is most likely fueled with oil that came from the Arab states, some which privately may have supported terrorism.

Basically get real, your cause is noble but it is a little too late. Your effort now is comparable to trying to put out a forest fire with a squirt gun. Unfortunately, it isn't going to have any effect. BTW are you willing to pay double or even triple the price for something made in the U.S. verses the same quality of product that was imported from overseas.

Go ahead and criticize me if you want, but until there is real election reform and politicians start working for us instead of the fat-cat corporate lobbyist, you are going to have products made in third world countries at a fraction of the cost it takes to make something here. Politicians only worry about their re-election campaigns and if some company puts big bucks into their campaign, which way do you think the vote will fall. Not for you!

------------------
AJ Y6b N&W and Conrail Fan http://communities.msn.com/TheGRRModelRR (my page)
http://www.nvrra.org (my club's page)

[This message has been edited by ajy6b (edited 09-17-2002).]
 

While I now understand why you would pay more for a Made in the USA product, I believe most other people would not.
My guess is a Lionel car that retails for $35 (I have not checked recently so I could be "off" here) would cost closer to $100 if made in the USA. It is not just the labor costs, it is the environmental regs, sue-crazy employees etc (as stated in earlier posts by me and others)
Lionel was never likely to be a high profit margin product and I don't think it is now...but I think they would price themselves out of the market if they made everything here.
I would not lay the blame only on business managers. Local government officials can also have a negative impact on making things in the USA, as it sometimes is very difficult to get a light manufacturing plant up and running what with all the permits, etc.


 

When I buy something, I go for the most value for my hard earned money. As far as boycotts go, if the alternative product is just as good quality-wise then I may participate, but I won't pay more money or the same amount for something that is not as good. I think most people are like that.

I am sorry about your mother and I can understand your views. I grew up in the rust belt myself. I have seen people loose their jobs overseas and it is a shame. But you have to remember some of these jobs were driven overseas because these business owners wanted make more money by avoiding the cost of regulation, some over unionization of work laws, some because they got the politicians to pass tax laws that made it easier and cheaper to close a plant then to fix it up.

Part of it goes to economic viability. A lot of our industrial base was worn out in the years following WW2. Whereas Japan and Germany had brand new plants that were rebuilt with US funds and these plants were more efficient. When it came to modernize, our tax laws made it easier to close than rebuild. Furthermore, more recent tax laws drove companies to put their corporate headquarters overseas because of the tax benefits. Didn't Stanley Tools of Connecticut move their corporate headquarters to the Bahamas in order to get out of paying U.S. taxes?

So what do we do now? It's a good question. Passing laws that restrain trade end up hurting everyone in the end, and not everyone or every country plays along. You can vote with your wallet, but don't expect people to join you especially if there is a substantial price difference or if the item is unique. The only thing you can try to hope for is an even playing field. You can write congress and the state department and ask for a fair playing field. Maybe they will listen. If one country restrains trade then we should do likewise with that country. However, I doubt if boycotts will have an effect, especially on specialty items like model railroad locomotives.